It's funny Dye got ripped off at IAO [Archive]

Animal Mother

07-22-2003, 08:13 PM

I played with Dave Youngblood here in CA too. Long ago when he wore a suit and used his chromed out pump gun. It was funny because EVERYONE was gunning for him. He got me and I was honored to be shot by such a great player. He just has no morals when it comes to business.. and sad to say he is NOT the only one.

All I am saying is my first reaction was to burst out in laughter when I heard Dye got jacked.. because it bothers me so much of their stuff is made in China. I have Dye gear.. alot of my things are made in China. But I think we should be informed about who we support as consumers. If I see two towels and one is made in the USA and one is made in China and the USA towel is 25 cents more.. I'm gonna buy the USA one. But sometimes it is not so easy to make that choice when buying things.. thats ok, just.. have a conscience about it. You're not just spending money, you're giving money to people that employ children in sweat shops.

And it does work. Nike was one of THE WORST companies about having their product made in sweat shops. With pressure from consumers and the media.. they have changed SOME of their ways.. so any change is a good thing.

I'm not telling anyone how to spend their money, you have that freedom. It's great we live in a country where we can make theses kinds of choices. Some people don't have that luxury.

nippinout

07-22-2003, 08:24 PM

I'm going to keep it simple.

http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html

Sweatshops and cheap labor is awesome. Lots of good can come from it.

You amuse me. You have a problem with DYE, yet you purchase their goods. ROTFLMAO

BTW, every company is money grubbing. Even Tom Kaye likes to make money.

deathstalker

07-22-2003, 08:28 PM

I try my hardest not to laugh at the misfortune of others, because there, but for the grace of God, go I.

cphilip

07-22-2003, 08:35 PM

I don't think its funny at all. And every major event I go to there is some kind of theft. I getting sick of it. I am afraid there are just too many low lifes hanging around paintball. Its time we cleaned em all out. And making fun of it or chearing it is just as bad. Sober up Animal and think about what you are saying. Its totaly wrong.

Thats my opinion.

Animal Mother

07-22-2003, 08:38 PM

Originally posted by nippinout
I'm going to keep it simple.

http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/smokey.html

Sweatshops and cheap labor is awesome. Lots of good can come from it.

You amuse me. You have a problem with DYE, yet you purchase their goods. ROTFLMAO

BTW, every company is money grubbing. Even Tom Kaye likes to make money.

Does Tom Kaye do it on the backs of children? Go on and answer that one.

You amuse me for your lack of comprehension. Try reading my posts again.. if you can.

I am not speaking about Manila, I am speaking about China, neighbor to Japan, ever hear of it? They are a communist country who's chief export is child slave labor. Without the money we give them in exchange for their labor their economy would fall and take their government with it. It would leave room for something other than communism. It is the golden rule.. he who has the gold makes the rule.

Neighboring Japan has an ethical work force and has one of the strongest economies. This is the same country we nuked back to the stone age.. so don't tell me how you need child slave labor to pull your country out of the ground.

cphilip

07-22-2003, 08:44 PM

Turn it into international politics and its closed....

Johnny_Reb

07-22-2003, 08:47 PM

Would it be funny if me,FalconGuy, and Jack & Coke stole $10,000 from you? What happened to DYE isnt funny at all.

nippinouts right, while child labor isnt right their at least making money to feed themselves. Its not like their handling bombs, just making apparel, so theirs no risk at all. Why dont you ask the ppl who work for DYE in China if their glad their working their? See what they say.

EDIT:sorry cphilip we were typing at the same time, if you dont like my post feel free to delete it.

c sherer

07-22-2003, 08:51 PM

two wrongs don't make a right.
And no, I am 100% NOT a bleeding heart liberal hippie. Far from it. Try a registered conservative republican.

Stealing from Dye was a wrong. And guess what - someone (overseas labor) will have to make more of that apparrel to replace it and then everyone will have to pay slightly more for those products because some fool stole it all in the first place which jacks up the prices so Dye can maintain their business.

And another thing that made me go hmmm....

ok, so yeah, a lot of companies make stuff in china where labor is cheap. Now, lets look at this from an economic standpoint and NOT a moral one.
Someone has a job making shoes (or jerseys) for 25 cents a day. We americans say Whoa! that's nuts! They are virtually slaves! That is viewing things from OUR perspective. Maybe, just maybe, in china (or whereever) a steady job paying 25 cents a day is pretty good income. Not everyplace has the same economy or cost of living. So maybe these people making these products are HAPPY to be making 25 cents a day. Those people go home with their 25 cents to their familys and are able to buy food, clothing, shelter, and maybe have a little left over. Thats a lot better than living in a box in an overcrowded gutter somewhere doing your laundry in a puddle. Its also better than depending on some government handout or program to feed/clothe your family because then, you really are a lot closer to slavery if you think about it.

Now, don't go thinking I am for people living under an oppressive government - I'm not. I wish everyone could experience the wonderful life and conditions we have here in the states. I am simply presenting a different way to look at things and to point out that there are myriad other factors that need to be considered before immediately jumping to conclusions that Nike or Dye is a big bad evil company that cares nothing for people.
Is china oppressive? Sure. Are these people all FORCED to work in these jobs? I suspect not. Are they paid much less than we are here in the states? Sure. Why? Economics - both here and over there.

Does boycotting Dye (or whoever) solve the issue? Nope. That will only waste your time because then you are spending all your time worrying about who makes what and where and if you should buy it or not. Because I have news for you - there are a whole lotta things made in cheap overseas locations and you'd likely not buy much of anything anymore.
You want to make a difference? Get an interest in POLITICS. Learn who your representatives are and vote for people who you believe will work toward similar goals and beliefs that you have. Stupid, useless idea you say? Well, believe that if you wish. In the meantime I will pay attention to issues and vote for someone who I feel CAN make a difference in the world.

CoSh

-=Squid=-

07-22-2003, 08:53 PM

Mabe you will change your attitude towards dye when you can afford to use there stuff :rolleyes:

c sherer

07-22-2003, 08:53 PM

oops, sorry, cphilip. was writing when you posted on politics.

Retract soapbox now...
CoSh

07-22-2003, 08:54 PM

I like dye stuff, however not a big fan of thier guns, kinda pricey for what they are.

I think you just ruined your credibility on AO. Sad man, very sad. :rolleyes: The truly funny part is that 10k is like 100 boomers. pffft they probally sold that many durring IAO, not to mention all thier other crap they sell.

Philip close this thread before it gets ugly.

Animal Mother

07-22-2003, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by cphilip
I don't think its funny at all. And every major event I go to there is some kind of theft. I getting sick of it. I am afraid there are just too many low lifes hanging around paintball. Its time we cleaned em all out. And making fun of it or chearing it is just as bad. Sober up Animal and think about what you are saying. Its totaly wrong.

Thats my opinion.

I agree there are many low lifes in paintball, and I would also say many of the low lifes are paintball itself. Companies like Smart Parts, which we all know why they're low lifes and companies like Dye for having all their gear made in China by children. A lot of people attending theses events are low lifes as well and give Paintball an even worse name... Didn't Chris Laysoya bounce 12 shots into the back of someone's head and said "it's part of the game, if you can't take it go play golf" or something of the like..?

I guess laughing in public about theft is in a way encouraging it. But... bad things happen to bad people. This is really just a reply to all the people that felt sorry for Dye.. I don't feel sorry for them at all. If Smart Parts factory was picked up by a twister and no one was hurt but Smart Parts went under would you shed a tear? Only because it was Dye... if AGD got ripped off I'd pass out the torches to the lynch mob.

Johnny_Reb

07-22-2003, 09:02 PM

Didn't Chris Laysoya bounce 12 shots into the back of someone's head and said "it's part of the game, if you can't take it go play golf" or something of the like..? Not again there was a huge thread on this if you search for it.

Animal,buddy, you have to realize that A LOT of things are made in China but just because ppl have products made their doesnt make them lowlifes, ppl in China are glad to have those jobs. While I also believe bad things do happen to bad ppl, DYE isnt bad ppl.YB is a real nice guy and has contributed alot to paintball.

if AGD got ripped off I'd pass out the torches to the lynch mob. Hehe "Pitchforks distrubted Sir!"

nippinout

07-22-2003, 09:08 PM

I have a friend that was Made in China. :o :D

Star_Base_CGI

07-22-2003, 09:14 PM

Well at Dyes prices thats like what 3 packs and 4 belts?

Seriously though you just cant walk off with $10,000 im Belts and pods. They have to be organized. You have to have a van or something to put them in and lookouts to distract people.

Organized crime is big buisiness. Someone who was in the mob, a neighbor told me. The mafia is the most organized buisines in the world.

After reading this Im getting a cheap pack.

Animal Mother

07-22-2003, 09:22 PM

Originally posted by c sherer

Who said I wasn't or don't? I am very active. And I never said we should boycott Dye, all I said was it's funny when bad things happen to bad people. I believe two wrongs CAN make a right, it is how the world revolves, I don't base my life on silly cliches. It doesn't matter if making 25 cents is better than nothing.. getting kicked in the teeth is better than being kicked in the pod... I wouldn't want either. I see what you are saying at a lot of it makes sense, but until you see first hand what a sweat shop looks like you can't say the kids are happy. I know I am giving dye a hard time.. maybe more people will put the pressure on them about their work ethics and maybe they can change. After all they are the Nike of paintball.

I work for Apple Computer.. we.. have an "OK" work ethic but we aren't perfect. I took a visit to China and visited the company that manufactures our PCB's (printed circuit boards) to help oversea a rework project to fix an issue... it was not pretty. Watching kids work their fingers to the bone... when I was their age I was watching Transformers and eating fruit roll ups after school.. it was sad, theses kids will never have the chance to be a kid. The only way Apple can compete is to endorse slave labor.. and we already have the most expensive computers. We have the stuff made in China and we assemble it in the USA. At least our factory in Elk Grove does for the PowerMac line, the "cheap" consumer products are all made in China... I understand a lot of companies HAVE to do this.. and I know I am hard on what I say about them. But spreading the word does put the pressure on them to change. Look at what a bad name Cathie Lee got.. she stopped having her products made in sweat shops and donated a large sum of money to relief efforts for children working in sweat shops. The media is their best friend and worst enemy, lol

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
Mabe you will change your attitude towards dye when you can afford to use there stuff :rolleyes:

I have Dye tank covers and Dye Ultralights on both my ULE E-Mag and Angel Speed... So yeah.. I can afford their stuff.. :rolleyes:

WarBUCKs

07-22-2003, 09:25 PM

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI

Seriously though you just cant walk off with $10,000 im Belts and pods. They have to be organized. You have to have a van or something to put them in and lookouts to distract people.

Maybe Dye planned this raid on itself to collect the insurance money. This way, they can off-load some equipment, pretend like they made it again and collect 10k in cash from unsuspecting insurance company. :( Of course, I doubt that, but I am always good at finding a good conspiracy. :)

If you need a conspiracy made up, PM me. :p

Python14

07-22-2003, 09:32 PM

I don't think that's funny at all. I like DYE.

irbodden

07-22-2003, 09:36 PM

Let them make that cheap crap, as long as a nation has sweatshops and psuedo-slave labor, they won't be getting the education they'd need to compete against the United States. It's an endless cycle, and I don't want to see crap factories in the US.

crankydan

07-22-2003, 09:39 PM

This is another typical AO thread. Yes, more drama for us poor saps with nothing better to do then flame someone’s opinion. The last time I checked it is everyone’s right to voice their opinion, remember that piece of paper our founding fathers wrote(even though most of them were black balled for it). Yet there are some of us that would give our lives so you have these rights. Sad man, that’s about all I can say, freaking sad. You people are starting to make me sick! Most of you should sign up for the Opra show, or that whacked out Doctor show, and cry your hearts out on national TV. I agree with animal to a degree. I think everyone is charging to much money for paintball products. I mean think about it, 1400 bucks for a marker and that wont even shoot. You still need a drop, tank, cover, macro, hopper. Now throw in all the accessories, jersey, pants, shoes, pack, pods. Oh yea almost ready to paint, nope need paint, nitro and field fees. That is just to play rec ball. Give me a break, "PAINTBALL IS ALL ABOUT MONEY". You can say what you want, but it really is.
Lets all worry about more important things than animal and him thinking that Dye getting ripped off is funny or not. Lets all worry about the future of this sport and how maybe one of us can make it better or more enjoyable to play.

-=Squid=-

07-22-2003, 09:43 PM

I have Dye tank covers and Dye Ultralights on both my ULE E-Mag and Angel Speed... So yeah.. I can afford their stuff.. :rolleyes:

Ok, so now you use there products? Trust me, you are just digging yourself a deeper and deeper hole...

cphilip

07-22-2003, 09:44 PM

Originally posted by Animal Mother

I work for Apple Computer..

Well tell the boss to throw an office party cause I just spent almost 5 grand on a new G5 2GB Dually with 17" Flatscreen from you guys today... :D

thecavemankevin

07-22-2003, 09:52 PM

geez phill...i think we know whos got money to burn:)

well if we are cleaning up and getting rid of the scum from paintball i think the priority is smart parts

but back to the topic, this isn't cool at all because now Dye's insurance is going up thus the prices (that are already rediculous) that their customers will have to pay are now going up too :(

Animal Mother

07-22-2003, 09:52 PM

Originally posted by cphilip

Well tell the boss to throw an office party cause I just spent almost 5 grand on a new G5 2GB Dually with 17" Flatscreen from you guys today... :D

Damn... talk about going all out, lol

....and did you get the Apple Care Protection plan with that? It will also cover your display if purchased at the same time.

hehehe... yeah we really push that AppleCare hard.. but with what you just bought.. $249 isn't much more. Remember.. you have a year to get it and it covers you for 3 years from the purchase date. Lot of people get confused on that and say we are trying to rip them off.

I wish I coulda sold that to you, whenever a tech sells something we win prizes because techs aren't salesmen. That's how I got my iPod :D

cphilip

07-22-2003, 09:58 PM

Naw no warranty. I never buy those. I know you make lotsa money on them.

I went through the Educational Sales thingie. Colleges and Universities one cause we have too.

You know them scroll down buttons where you pick up grades and such? I changed all of em to the Plus stuff! 1 GB RAM... everything... And added Office software and a 800 GB lacie Firewire drive to it all as well.

Was not so keen about the 7-8 week delivery thing though. When I buy something I want it NOW!!!! :D

WickeDKlowN

07-22-2003, 09:59 PM

Who care where/how the stuff is made? I could care less as long as it looks and works good. Wht happened to DYE is not funny at all. How would you feel if you got 10K stolen form you?

e mag

07-22-2003, 10:03 PM

just because something is made in china doesnt mean it is made by kids.

i like tictacs

07-22-2003, 10:19 PM

do you use a revy or an eggo?
do you have any JT products?
do you have any dye products?

there are many more companies that do it too. i guarantee you are using a product from a company that contracts over seas in china. so if you're going to boycott, you might as well get rid of all that stuff,

so stfu.

845

07-22-2003, 10:35 PM

Most factory workers in China are around the age of 15.

TheTramp

07-23-2003, 12:47 AM

Originally posted by Animal Mother

I am not speaking about Manila, I am speaking about China, neighbor to Japan, ever hear of it? They are a communist country who's chief export is child slave labor.

Are you kidding me? Do you really believe this or was it just some sort of figure of speach?:confused:

I chalenge you to show figures which show China's "chief export [to be] child slave labor." Somehow I think you wont be able to do it.

I look forward to a post from you which isn't negative.

TheTramp

07-23-2003, 12:49 AM

Originally posted by 845
Most factory workers in China are around the age of 15.

Once again, I'd like to see where you got this information.

Just looking at the population of China and the labor force requierments of it's industries will show this statment to be completely impossible.

Animal Mother

07-23-2003, 12:56 AM

Originally posted by cphilip

Was not so keen about the 7-8 week delivery thing though. When I buy something I want it NOW!!!! :D

Yeah.. they can't stock pile before Jobs gives his keynote speech because someone always leaks the info. Before the G5 was released we had one production line closed off and surrounded by curtains with security guarding it. Actually we do that for all test products. We send one batch through and send them back to Cupertino for testing. Right now they hired on a 3rd shift so we're back to 24/7 production to meet the demand of the G5. 1 line is for the Xserve and the rest are dedicated for the G5. Really good yield on the G5, unlike the Xserve.. the Xserve is a great system, but when it was new the systems we used to test them didn't work properly and failed just about every unit, lol. I'm a Failure Analysis Engineer.. fancy name but basically what I do is when we have 3 of the same failures on the production line they stop everything and I run in and find out what the problem is.. like bad batch of HD's (because someone dropped the pallet os HD's, lol) or bad batch of logic boards or a lot of the times someone on the line just installed something wrong. Thats part of my job.. a lot of it is just being a tech, finding out problems in the field after a product has been out for a few weeks, known issues and capturing them etc. Fun stuff, most of the cost with Apple is you're getting a computer that has been tested a million times before it is shipped to you. We run every test 3 times and do a burn in time on 12 hours..

Anyways, lol

WickeDKlowN, it would suck. But here is an example..

What if you heard on the news the other day that Osama Bin Laden had cancer of the testicals, and it was so bad that they had to remove EVERYTHING and for the rest of his life he will pee through a silly straw due to the back pressure needed to urinate or something. If that happened to you.. would you or I be laughing? No.. when it happens to a bad person, it's funny as hell!

Now.. I am not going anywhere close to saying Dye is like the piece of crap that orchestrated the death of thousands of people. But it is why I feel it's funny to laugh at Dye when the very product they sell that was made by slaves so they can turn a larger profit is stolen from them.

Jack & Coke

07-23-2003, 12:58 AM

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=483073

joeyjoe367

07-23-2003, 01:30 AM

If a poor kid in a neighboring town offered to mow your lawn for $1 while the rich kid next door offered to mow it for $20, who would you have mow your lawn?

It's simply economics. And 60 cents an hour in some of those places isn't nearly as bad as it sounds. You have to realize that the US dollar is very powerful in relation to some 3rd world country's currancy.

...and what would happen to that country if we did start paying them the US minimum wage? If suddenly a textile worker is able to make more than most other jobs that require schooling, what would happen to that society? Kids would drop out of school to go work for nike and whatnot.

What DYE, Nike, and other large corporations are doing is not Immorral by any means, IMO. They are not forcing anyone to accept their offer for employment.

What *IS* immoral is your call for laughter at someone's misfortune.

Animal Mother

07-23-2003, 02:13 AM

Ummm no.

Just because "everyone does it" doesn't make it right. Just because it's cheaper doesn't make it right.

You are totally missing the issue. It isn't about who does it cheaper, it's about the working conditions of the people making your product. Theses people have no days off.. theses people take no breaks. The labor laws in the U.S states you have to make a certain amount, the working conditions have to be satisfactory and safe, your employees cannot work more than a certain amount of hours per week and must take two breaks a a lunch in an 8 hour shift. Have you even heard of OSHA? (Occupational Safety & Health Administration)

Theses kids that work their fingers to the bone in 3rd world countries get NONE of this. Why? Because their employer makes the rules, not the government and state. So whos best interest is being met?

You tell ME that it isn't as bad as it "SOUNDS", how about as bad as I "SAW". How many sweat shops in China have you been to? I've been to one. Can ya beat that?

Panasonic has their product made in Japan, does it cost loads more than Sony's? No.. which means they can put out the same DVD player and sell it for the same price and still turn a profit. Dye can do the same, but they choose to make more of a profit by out sourcing to companies that employ children and have them work in sweat shops.

That $80 pair of Dye pants cost Dye no more than $5 to produce. Add in marketing, overseas shipping etc.. it is still less than half of $80. This is how a company like Dye gets HUGE, once they make loads of money they start buying smaller companies, fire all of its employees and out source to a company in China that enslaves kids to make their product at a fraction of the cost. The all new Matrix.. made in China. Americans lose jobs, our economy goes in the toilet because everyone takes a hit and more kids are employed as slaves in China to make ends meet.

THAT... is wrong.

Like Nike.. we need to put the pressure on Dye, because once Nike was getting a bad wrap.. they started to change their ways. But if we turn our heads to look at the pretty Dye girls in the booth and not look at where that Dye pro flex snapless G string she was wearing was made.. they will continue what they are doing. I think it is BAD to have enslave living beings for a larger profit, and when something BAD happens to that company doing a BAD thing... I won't shed a tear or defend them when someone else laughs at their misfortune.

And again... all I am saying is... be informed and have a conscience before you have your whole team plunk down their cash for matching jerseys. Just think of what you are supporting. Because I guarantee if you chose some other company that made everything in the USA over Dye.. Dye would change the very next day. And when the companies in China lose business and we tell them it's because of how they treat their employees... they will change the next day. See the chain reaction or are you narrow minded and just see the pretty Dye butt rag you just purchased?

whelp... I'm gonna go chuff chuff. If you'll excuse me.

shartley

07-23-2003, 06:09 AM

Looks like some folks have some strange perceptions on international trade and labor….. and I will leave it at that. Using cheaper labor and manufacturing is not “immoral” in itself. We see that to a certain degree even in the US. We see companies move from one state to another because they can save money… what about THOSE jobs lost? So no, just using Chinese labor does not make a company “immoral”. Nor is China just one huge sweat shop.

Now as for laughing at someone getting ripped off….. that is just wrong. So we now assign what is right and wrong according to whether we “like” someone/something or not? I wonder how morals play into that way of thinking?

I just think we are in a giant “hate blender” right now. For some reason folks just want to hate someone or something.

cledford

07-23-2003, 07:08 AM

Originally posted by Animal Mother

I agree there are many low lifes in paintball, and I would also say many of the low lifes are paintball itself. Companies like Smart Parts, which we all know why they're low lifes and companies like Dye for having all their gear made in China by children.

I guess laughing in public about theft is in a way encouraging it. But... bad things happen to bad people. This is really just a reply to all the people that felt sorry for Dye.. I don't feel sorry for them at all. If Smart Parts factory was picked up by a twister and no one was hurt but Smart Parts went under would you shed a tear? Only because it was Dye... if AGD got ripped off I'd pass out the torches to the lynch mob.

I really gotta agree with Animal on this one - he wasn't condoning theft, but stated from the outset that maybe they're reaping some sort of reward for their past transgressions... Ever heard of Karma?

I personally despise them all - and yes still do buy their products - mainly due to a lack of choice, thanks to the DY's out there who don't care about American's or their jobs. Honestly, does a "made in America" company stand a chance competing against the Dye's and the Redz who save all kinds of cash by exploiting the bad fate of others, then turning the profits against their domestic competitors with huge marketing campaigns, sponsorships, and give-aways? I don't condone rape, murder, or theft, but when lousy people have bad luck (contrary to the good runs they usually enjoy due to the advantage of their low road choices) I've got to admit that I'm a little happy they got to taste misery as well.

I do agree with Cphil on the scumbag issue. I guess that in this case it just turned out to be a case of some smaller scumbags preying on another of their kind.

-Calvin

Albinonewt

07-23-2003, 07:37 AM

Theft at a major event like IAO is always bad, it doesn't matter who it happens to. If Satan himself was selling paintball guns and while his guntech Hitler was in the restroom someone swiped Stalin's $3,000 marker that was being worked on it's still wrong. How hypocritical will we look if we support this but then complain when it happens to someone we like next year?

As for Dye. I don't like my Invision very much, but I do like the shoes (I bought them at IAO). I also have a Boombox that I keep my barrels in (although none are Dye Barrels).

As for all the hoopla about the immorality of moving jobs to China, just remember that when you vote for a candidate that advocates the raising of the minimum wage.

DyNasTy

07-23-2003, 08:11 AM

In all honesty, this thread is just a little dumb.. yes its bad to have children working on clothing to be sold across sea's but what proof do you have of this? I didnt see a picture iwth a little chinese kid holding a pair of ATC's putting the laces in, or sowing them up.

I really could care less where, or who makes my gear as long as its a quality product and its whta I expected to get and what I wanted to get. And yes I am sticking up for Dye because they are a great company in my mind.

JAM

07-23-2003, 08:28 AM

DYE makes a lot of great products. It is not good for anyone to steal anyhting from anyone else.

These idiots that stole from DYE are the same people that would walk away with your marker at the field. screw them.

Thordic

07-23-2003, 08:56 AM

This is the most retarded thread I've seen in a long time.

Animal Mother, sorry but any respect I may have had went down the toilet.

Albinonewt

07-23-2003, 09:08 AM

Originally posted by Thordic
This is the most retarded thread I've seen in a long time.

Then you should have read the No Doz kill thread. THAT was the most retarded thread in a long time.

Troy

07-23-2003, 09:15 AM

I think Animal should be beaten with a Boom stick.

MarkM

07-23-2003, 09:15 AM

Originally posted by i like tictacs
do you use a revy or an eggo?
do you have any JT products?
do you have any dye products?

there are many more companies that do it too. i guarantee you are using a product from a company that contracts over seas in china. so if you're going to boycott, you might as well get rid of all that stuff,

so stfu.

Kinda what I was thinking re JT...nice label inside stating that although made from components made in the USA it is assembled in Mexico. If a company can get a product made for a sensible cost in it's own country it will if it can't then it won't. Your pc's all have parts made from outside of the US and a great many are from China...a lot from Malaysia and maybe a couple of resistors from Japan. It is market enconomics that causes this, not someone trying to make a quick buck. Theft is theft, you would all start to complain pretty quickly if DYE, AGD, NPS etc etc all stopped coming to events because they couldn't risk their trailers getting jacked.

langrage

07-23-2003, 09:29 AM

First off how many people have heard that every time someone steals from a company the purchasing consumer is effected. You think Dye stuff is over priced, just think how much the stuff is going to cost when they have to make up profit for a $10,000 loss.

Shartley is correct, some of you do not understand international trade at all. I will leave it at that since it would take way to long for some of you to understand.

Webmaster

07-23-2003, 09:45 AM

er... uh... Im not a huge fan of Dye - because they make good stuff and sell it for a high price. Too high. But hey - so does Nike and Reebok.

But anyway - IMHO there is NOTHING immoral about having overseas manufacturers make your stuff. While I am not a fan of "child labor sweat shops" there are MANY legitimate and legal manufactures in China and saying that Dye uses child labor with out proof is libel (or is it slander).

So while you may personally prefer to buy american etc - its also the american way to make things cheaper, better, and faster through what ever means we have. Its why we can have some of the most advanced processors on earth be made and sold to use for less than the cost of Mid-level semi.

Just my opinion. Not a huge fan of Dye - but to call them immoral is a bit much.

langrage

07-23-2003, 09:52 AM

webby- its libel, slander is spoken

UThomas

07-23-2003, 11:07 AM

So if you own DYE stuff, does that make you an enabler or a hypocrit?

Do you even understand economics, and specifically the job market as it relates to worker benefits? Generally, if you take away jobs, there will be less benefits (because they can). If you add jobs, there will be more benefits (because you have to compete for workers). Further, you seem to be comparing a 1st world capitalist economy to a 3rd world industrializing economy. Where do they have good benefits in China?

DYE is actually helping the China situation, not hurting it.

AFRaven

07-23-2003, 11:29 AM

Animal Mother... you are so hypocritical, it defies any sort of description. You do realize that not all products made in China are made in sweat shops I hope.

ß.C.

07-23-2003, 11:37 AM

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Here is a company that is immoral to start with. They have 90% of their product made in China. So rather than giving Americans jobs because we employ moral work ethics and taking a hit to profits they would rather have 8 year old children slave away 6 and half days a week for 12 hours in China so they can pocket the profit.

They don't have to work if they don't want to, it's a job, dye doesn't go their and start ransacking the place . . .

Riotz

07-23-2003, 11:52 AM

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Does Tom Kaye do it on the backs of children? Go on and answer that one.

Uh... But he does hire lots of immigrant workers. You ever see his staff? haha Sorry Jon and JJ. :p

cledford

07-23-2003, 11:59 AM

Funny, I think some of the posters in this thread weighed in differently when the issue was WGP moving the production of their guns to Taiwan.

I understand that we can't know for *certain* that either child or prison labor is used specifically in Dave's products - but let's be realistic here, it ain't cheaper to produce something half the world away and ship it here for no reason at all. Even if kids aren't specifically being exploited in the manufacture of HIS goods (although we do know for sure that they are a significant portion of the time to produce other merchandise made in China) there is still *someone* being exploited - what difference does it make if a kid or the poor smuck trying to feed a couple of children for pennies an hour is being used? Quite frankly, the real issue is that that regardless of *who* is being exploited the real losers are American's who had to watch those jobs "sail away" so that a guy who was already richer then 99.99 of the rest of us could make EVEN more money. Let's face it, no one is out to screw someone out of an honest buck - but are you telling me that DY, Bud Orr, or "Red" couldn't have kept the jobs here, still gotten rich and been associated with a GAME for their living? They might not have gotten AS rich, but they'd still be there - this is a question of selling out that we're dealing with. These people have jobs that anyone would be envious of, they are working in an industry they love, and making a ton of cash. Why do they need 2 "tons of cash" at the expense of the labor in both US and China?

-Calvin

shartley

07-23-2003, 12:27 PM

Originally posted by cledford
Funny, I think some of the posters in this thread weighed in differently when the issue was WGP moving the production of their guns to Taiwan.

I understand that we can't know for *certain* that either child or prison labor is used specifically in Dave's products - but let's be realistic here, it ain't cheaper to produce something half the world away and ship it here for no reason at all. Even if kids aren't specifically being exploited in the manufacture of HIS goods (although we do know for sure that they are a significant portion of the time to produce other merchandise made in China) there is still *someone* being exploited - what difference does it make if a kid or the poor smuck trying to feed a couple of children for pennies an hour is being used? Quite frankly, the real issue is that that regardless of *who* is being exploited the real losers are American's who had to watch those jobs "sail away" so that a guy who was already richer then 99.99 of the rest of us could make EVEN more money. Let's face it, no one is out to screw someone out of an honest buck - but are you telling me that DY, Bud Orr, or "Red" couldn't have kept the jobs here, still gotten rich and been associated with a GAME for their living? They might not have gotten AS rich, but they'd still be there - this is a question of selling out that we're dealing with. These people have jobs that anyone would be envious of, they are working in an industry they love, and making a ton of cash. Why do they need 2 "tons of cash" at the expense of the labor in both US and China?

-Calvin
While I fully understand your points…. The same things can be said about moving a business from WI to TX, or from CA to NH. When someone gains a job because of moved production, someone loses a job (or the chance of having the job) that is business. And the only difference is saying that a worker in China has less importance than a worker in the US…. Folks are only expanding the borders.

The business world has become a global thing. And companies have to determine for themselves what is in THEIR best interest. After all, it is their dime paying the bills, not ours. It is easy to sit back and complain about things and how folks should do this or that with their money and their products, but unless you have to foot that bill it is kind of a moot point.

I don’t know a single company that would CHOOSE to have products made in a foreign country if they could produce it at the same price in the US. And these decisions often DO hinge on the bottom line and getting the most out of their money. Folks act like businesses just have money to toss away, and that they should take a loss or less profit to make the customer happy. Well, that is not the way things work.

Heck, few people would apply this practice to their own lives…. They buy gas where it is cheapest. They buy food where they get the best deals. They buy paintball equipment where they can get it cheapest. And the examples go on and on… yet these same folks want to cast stones at businesses who are simply doing the same thing.

How would any of US want to have moral judgments made on us for simply trying to buy things at the best prices we can? I have a family of 6 to support, and I can assure you that I don’t stand on any moral pedestal when buying food, clothing, etc. for them. And I would be darn insulted if someone was to say I was immoral because I am not spending my money on a product that may have been made in another country because it is cheaper for me to do so, than one made here in the US. Heck, I don’t even CARE for the most part who made what I am buying. And truth be told, most Americans don’t KNOW where their products are made or even care for the most part.

Look at the surveys involving “French” products. Most people couldn’t even list products made in France. And when given a list of products and asked if it was a French product or not, they were WRONG most of the time.

Most of these decisions are not made lightly by companies. And unless folks are actually privy to the decision process, we just don’t know WHY the decision was made. And most of the time I would bet that if they could have the same product made in the US at relatively the same overall cost, they would. Also folks have to remember that often they are not the ONLY company making the same type of product… which means they have to compete with someone else.

Yes, the business world can be “friendly” but it isn’t always “nice”. And every decision made has the potential to hurt someone. Just ask AGD if they liked reducing staff. Most of the time issues like these are not as cut and dry as folks would like to believe.

Albinonewt

07-23-2003, 12:35 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Look at the surveys involving “French” products. Most people couldn’t even list products made in France. And when given a list of products and asked if it was a French product or not, they were WRONG most of the time.

>>French Products and Companies to Boycott:
>>
>>Air France
>>Air Liquide
>>Airbus (airplanes in commericial use)
>>Alcatel
>>Allegra (allergy medication)
>>Aqualung - including: Spirotechnique, Technisub, US
Divers and SeaQuest
>>AXA Advisors
>>Bank of the West (owned by BNP Paribas)
>>Beneteau (boats)
>>BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin)
>>BIC (razors, pens and lighters)
>>Biotherm (cosmetics
>>Black Bush
>>Bollinger (champagne)
>>Car & Driver Magazine
>>Cartier
>>Chanel
>>Chivas Regal (scotch)
>>Christian Dior
>>Club Med (vacations)
>>Culligan (owned by Vivendi)
>>Dannon (yogurt and dairy foods)
>>DKNY
>>Dom Perigonon (champagne)
>>Durand Crystal
>>Elle Magazine
>>Essilor Optical Products
>>Evian
>>Fina (petroleum products) and Fina Oil (billions
invested in Iraqi oil fields)
>>First Hawaiian Bank
>>George Magazine
>>Givenchy
>>Glenlivet (scotch)
>>Hennessy (liquor products)
>>Houghton Mifflin (books)
>>Jacobs Creek (owned by Pernod Ricard since 1989)
>>Jameson (whiskey)
>>Jerry Springer (talk show)
>>Krups (coffee and cappuccino makers)
>>Lancome - Le Creuset (cookware)
>>L'Oreal (health and beauty products)
>>Louis Vuitton
>>Marie Claire
>>Martel Cognac
>>Maybelline
>>Mephisto (shoes & clothes)
>>Michelin (tires & auto parts)
>>Mikasa (crystal and glass)
>>Moet (champagne)
>>Motel 6
>>Motown Records
>>MP3.com
>>Mumms (champagne)
>>Nissan (cars - majority owned by
>>Renault
>>Nivea
>>Normany Butter
>>Parents Magazine
>>Peugeot (automobiles)
>>Pierre Cardin
>>Playstation Magazine
>>ProScan (owned by Thomson Electronics - France)
>>Publicis Group (including Saatchi & Saatachi
Advertising)
>>RCA (television & electronics - owned by Thomson
Electronics - France)
>>Red Magazine
>>Red Roof Inns (owned by Accor group in France)
>>Renault (automobiles)
>>Roquefort cheese (all Roquefort cheese is made in
France)
>>Rowenta (toasters, irons, coffe makers,
>>Royal Canadian
>>Salomon (skis)
>>Sierra Software & Computer Games
>>Smart & Final
>>Sofitel (hotels, owned by Accor group)
>>Sparkletts (water, owned by Danone)
>>Spencer Gifts.
>>Sundance Channel
>>Taylor Made (gold clubs & equipment)
>>Technicolor
>>T-Fal (kitchenware
>>Total Gas Stations
>>UbiSoft (computer games)
>>Uniroyal (tires)
>>Universal Studios (music, movies and amusement parks
- owned by Vivendi
>>US Filter
>>Veritas Group
>>Veuve Clicquot Champagne
>>Vittel
>>Vivendi
>>Wild Turkey (bourbon)
>>Woman's Day Magazine
>>Yoplait (The French company Sodiaal owns a 50%
stake)
>>Yves Saint Laurent
>>Zodia Inflatable Boats

shartley

07-23-2003, 12:38 PM

Originally posted by Albinonewt

>>French Products and Companies to Boycott:
>>
>>Air France
>>Air Liquide
>>Airbus (airplanes in commericial use)
>>Alcatel
>>Allegra (allergy medication)
>>Aqualung - including: Spirotechnique, Technisub, US
Divers and SeaQuest
>>AXA Advisors
>>Bank of the West (owned by BNP Paribas)
>>Beneteau (boats)
>>BF Goodrich (owned by Michelin)
>>BIC (razors, pens and lighters)
>>Biotherm (cosmetics
>>Black Bush
>>Bollinger (champagne)
>>Car & Driver Magazine
>>Cartier
>>Chanel
>>Chivas Regal (scotch)
>>Christian Dior
>>Club Med (vacations)
>>Culligan (owned by Vivendi)
>>Dannon (yogurt and dairy foods)
>>DKNY
>>Dom Perigonon (champagne)
>>Durand Crystal
>>Elle Magazine
>>Essilor Optical Products
>>Evian
>>Fina (petroleum products) and Fina Oil (billions
invested in Iraqi oil fields)
>>First Hawaiian Bank
>>George Magazine
>>Givenchy
>>Glenlivet (scotch)
>>Hennessy (liquor products)
>>Houghton Mifflin (books)
>>Jacobs Creek (owned by Pernod Ricard since 1989)
>>Jameson (whiskey)
>>Jerry Springer (talk show)
>>Krups (coffee and cappuccino makers)
>>Lancome - Le Creuset (cookware)
>>L'Oreal (health and beauty products)
>>Louis Vuitton
>>Marie Claire
>>Martel Cognac
>>Maybelline
>>Mephisto (shoes & clothes)
>>Michelin (tires & auto parts)
>>Mikasa (crystal and glass)
>>Moet (champagne)
>>Motel 6
>>Motown Records
>>MP3.com
>>Mumms (champagne)
>>Nissan (cars - majority owned by
>>Renault
>>Nivea
>>Normany Butter
>>Parents Magazine
>>Peugeot (automobiles)
>>Pierre Cardin
>>Playstation Magazine
>>ProScan (owned by Thomson Electronics - France)
>>Publicis Group (including Saatchi & Saatachi
Advertising)
>>RCA (television & electronics - owned by Thomson
Electronics - France)
>>Red Magazine
>>Red Roof Inns (owned by Accor group in France)
>>Renault (automobiles)
>>Roquefort cheese (all Roquefort cheese is made in
France)
>>Rowenta (toasters, irons, coffe makers,
>>Royal Canadian
>>Salomon (skis)
>>Sierra Software & Computer Games
>>Smart & Final
>>Sofitel (hotels, owned by Accor group)
>>Sparkletts (water, owned by Danone)
>>Spencer Gifts.
>>Sundance Channel
>>Taylor Made (gold clubs & equipment)
>>Technicolor
>>T-Fal (kitchenware
>>Total Gas Stations
>>UbiSoft (computer games)
>>Uniroyal (tires)
>>Universal Studios (music, movies and amusement parks
- owned by Vivendi
>>US Filter
>>Veritas Group
>>Veuve Clicquot Champagne
>>Vittel
>>Vivendi
>>Wild Turkey (bourbon)
>>Woman's Day Magazine
>>Yoplait (The French company Sodiaal owns a 50%
stake)
>>Yves Saint Laurent
>>Zodia Inflatable Boats
LOL Good job finding a list of products/companies and copying it. I was talking about off the street and other such surveys. ;) But I think you knew that. :)

Albinonewt

07-23-2003, 12:44 PM

Shartley makes a good point.

Why even discuss China when there's a whole country devoted to being loathed....

FRANCE

shartley

07-23-2003, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Shartley makes a good point.

Why even discuss China when there's a whole country devoted to being loathed....

FRANCE
Oh no!!!!! That was not my intent!!! ;)

And to think, we just got over the “French” thing in Friendly Corner. ;)

WHAT HAVE I DONE!?!?!?!?!!?!?!?!

cledford

07-23-2003, 01:00 PM

Laws of economics require that jobs exist where the consumer base for said products exist so as to provide the consumer the financial basis for purchasing the goods. The more jobs we loose over-seas the more it impacts our economy. If the difference between being rich and being filthy rich is moving jobs off-shore then I'd suggest that instead of "killing the goose that lays the golden egg" for the quick, bigger buck, that these "business people" cultivate a long-term, healthy market instead. Let's not forget 2 things, paintball is not very high on maslow's hierarchy (therefore would quickly shrivel in the event a large scale economic tragedy) and second economic troubles are like the green-house effect, easy to start, very difficult to stop - since they both become self perpetuating.

Look at it like this, the senior executives who are taking all of these companies broke can be viewed 2 different ways - either as evil, fattening up the goose for slaughter (when the sell their options and get out right before the share prices collapse), or good - because the companies always look great on paper right before they cash in. The question is, regardless does either way of viewing these crooks change the fact that they're running a business that both the employees and share holders have entrusted them with into the ground - so they can make a quick buck and get out? In my book a business person has a responsibility to everyone to not only make money, but to leave the economic environment in BETTER shape then when they started - call it "walk softly in the business world." My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas, it is when they decide that enough isn't enough and they need more that they begin to choose the path that isn't sustaining to the very market they reap from. It is like failure to crop rotate - they might profit off the "cash crop" in the short term, but things always catch up and they'll eventually pay for not helping to sustain the system that made them successful.

-Calvin

shartley

07-23-2003, 01:40 PM

Originally posted by cledford
Laws of economics require that jobs exist where the consumer base for said products exist so as to provide the consumer the financial basis for purchasing the goods. The more jobs we loose over-seas the more it impacts our economy. If the difference between being rich and being filthy rich is moving jobs off-shore then I'd suggest that instead of "killing the goose that lays the golden egg" for the quick, bigger buck, that these "business people" cultivate a long-term, healthy market instead. Let's not forget 2 things, paintball is not very high on maslow's hierarchy (therefore would quickly shrivel in the event a large scale economic tragedy) and second economic troubles are like the green-house effect, easy to start, very difficult to stop - since they both become self perpetuating.

Look at it like this, the senior executives who are taking all of these companies broke can be viewed 2 different ways - either as evil, fattening up the goose for slaughter (when the sell their options and get out right before the share prices collapse), or good - because the companies always look great on paper right before they cash in. The question is, regardless does either way of viewing these crooks change the fact that they're running a business that both the employees and share holders have entrusted them with into the ground - so they can make a quick buck and get out? In my book a business person has a responsibility to everyone to not only make money, but to leave the economic environment in BETTER shape then when they started - call it "walk softly in the business world." My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas, it is when they decide that enough isn't enough and they need more that they begin to choose the path that isn't sustaining to the very market they reap from. It is like failure to crop rotate - they might profit off the "cash crop" in the short term, but things always catch up and they'll eventually pay for not helping to sustain the system that made them successful.

-Calvin
Trust me, I fully understand what you are saying. But it is EASY to say when it is not YOUR money on the line, or YOUR company that is actually competing in the business world. I prefer to not pass judgments on companies that choose to move their operations anyplace, be it in another state or country.

And as I have stated, you can use the same arguments about moving a product/business from one state to another as you can for keeping the stuff in the US. You can (and others have often done so) used similar arguments when taking a business out of a community only to place it in a lower income area because they can pay the workers less, the rent is less, etc. This is not simply a US vs the world issue.

In fact I have been affected in one way or the other by this very same type of thing. It is business. And therefore I will not cast dispersions on companies for financial decisions that are never “easy” to make. I DO praise those companies that CAN and CHOOSE to stay “USA”, or stay in a particular area when they “can” move and save money… but I just don’t think those that don’t, or can’t, are evil, or have less “morals” than any other company. I also don’t see the great distinction between moving jobs away from ME and giving them to TX and moving them to China or another country. Try to explain the difference to that family in ME that lost their income.

Sure, those in TX now benefited, but like I said, people are people. And if the jobs didn’t move to TX but to China, those in TX are in NO worse shape than before the move. And if “morals” are the only thing to worry about, I think Chinese families deserve to eat and pay bills too. But to deprive them of that could in itself be considered a “moral” issue as well. ;)

I think it is where we draw the line that makes the difference. Those who don’t view the business world as a “global” thing, would tend to make distinctions between State and Country borders. While those who DO consider the business world a “global” thing don’t find the distinctions so clear cut.

Jack & Coke

07-23-2003, 01:45 PM

Originally posted by JAM
DYE makes a lot of great products. It is not good for anyone to steal anyhting from anyone else.

These idiots that stole from DYE are the same people that would walk away with your marker at the field. screw them.

Jam is correct!

Since when is a felony "funny"? This incident is nothing but a black eye to the event.

Anyone who thinks thievery is funny is just stupid. It really shows their immaturity and lack of character.:mad:http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon13.gif

You have a problem with DYE, then say so. Talk about the problem, instead of glamorizing a theft as your main subject.

Animal Mother

07-23-2003, 01:49 PM

Ya know.. I see a lot of "you're an idiot" "what proof do you have" "it's not that bad", "Looks like some folks have some strange perceptions on international trade and labor….. "

To "keep it simple", how many sweat shops in China have YOU seen? I've been inside one. That is when I started to be self conscience about who I supported with my money. I saw first hand how basic human rights were being violated. Theses kids did not look happy to have a job.. most of you are kids yourselves, what if you had to work in a factory making 25 cents an hour for that mag you own? You are all talking out of your asa adaptor because you have NOT been inside a sweatshop in China. I have, I was there on business so there was no cleaning up to look nice for the media. It was sick what I saw, I saw 12 year old girls packed together in a hot humid room soldering components on CPU cards for 12 hours a day because something got screwed up and they had to go back and fix them.

I stood and watched this and felt sick to my stomach... as hot as it was in there I was sweating so much it got in my eyes I was squinting.. the manager of the place saw this and said "lets go in my office", a nice clean air conditioned room with cold soda.

The internet is a great resource for information and not just porn. Try using it sometime..

What are some of the working conditions like?

In 1998, The National Labor Committee observed these working conditions first-hand while investigating 21 factories in China producing some of the most common clothing products sold in the US.

10 to 15 hour shifts per day
60 to 90 hour work weeks
6 and 7 work days a week
below subsistence wages of 13 to 28 cents an hour with no benefits
forced, uncompensated overtime
unsafe and unsanitary working environment
housing in crowded dormitories
24 hour surveillance

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/china/faq.html

Have any of you ever had to work 15 hours 7 days a week in an unsafe and unsanitary working environment? Theses people do it everyday so companies can make more of a profit.

I do not give a crap if "it's just business and they do it because they need to.", that's great.. wow.. yeah to turn a profit they have to employ slaves. Does that make it right? No.. it does not. It is immoral and if you don't agree that the above conditions that workers have to work in is sick then you have some serious problems. Dye could have all their product made in the USA, but since we employ work ethics and basic human rights Dye would lose part of their profit. That is the ONLY reason they out source to China, because China has no work ethics so they can inslave people and out bid any factory in the U.S. I don't see Dye trying to make ends meet, I actually see them buying other companies, so are they really just trying to keep their business a float or are they making as much of a profit so they can become bigger and better and put all the other companies out of business?

And again.. for the last time.. yes I buy products made in China, sometimes I have no choice, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not. So when something bad happens to any company that out sources to China to make their product so they can make a larger profit, I think they get what they deserve, and like someone else stated.. it's karma.

UThomas

07-23-2003, 02:12 PM

My point is that DY and others could STILL PROFIT and enjoy their business WITHOUT shipping jobs over-seas

And you know this how?? You've looked at their books?

is when I started to be self conscience about who I supported with my money.

But you already said you had multiple DYE products. So that makes you either a hypocrit, an enabler, or both.

Thomas

UThomas

07-23-2003, 02:16 PM

, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not

Wow, what a moral high ground. You're a hypocrit but at least you are aware of it. So of course you would be very comfortable with us all cheering if your house burned down since you support DYE and other companies that outsource labor.

Do you understand that economically, it is only through capital investment and creation of jobs that the work environment in China or else where will get better? Study some history.

shartley

07-23-2003, 02:17 PM

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Ya know.. I see a lot of "you're an idiot" "what proof do you have" "it's not that bad", "Looks like some folks have some strange perceptions on international trade and labor….. "

To "keep it simple", how many sweat shops in China have YOU seen? I've been inside one. That is when I started to be self conscience about who I supported with my money. I saw first hand how basic human rights were being violated. Theses kids did not look happy to have a job.. most of you are kids yourselves, what if you had to work in a factory making 25 cents an hour for that mag you own? You are all talking out of your asa adaptor because you have NOT been inside a sweatshop in China. I have, I was there on business so there was no cleaning up to look nice for the media. It was sick what I saw, I saw 12 year old girls packed together in a hot humid room soldering components on CPU cards for 12 hours a day because something got screwed up and they had to go back and fix them.

I stood and watched this and felt sick to my stomach... as hot as it was in there I was sweating so much it got in my eyes I was squinting.. the manager of the place saw this and said "lets go in my office", a nice clean air conditioned room with cold soda.

The internet is a great resource for information and not just porn. Try using it sometime..

http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/china/faq.html

Have any of you ever had to work 15 hours 7 days a week in an unsafe and unsanitary working environment? Theses people do it everyday so companies can make more of a profit.

I do not give a crap if "it's just business and they do it because they need to.", that's great.. wow.. yeah to turn a profit they have to employ slaves. Does that make it right? No.. it does not. It is immoral and if you don't agree that the above conditions that workers have to work in is sick then you have some serious problems. Dye could have all their product made in the USA, but since we employ work ethics and basic human rights Dye would lose part of their profit. That is the ONLY reason they out source to China, because China has no work ethics so they can inslave people and out bid any factory in the U.S. I don't see Dye trying to make ends meet, I actually see them buying other companies, so are they really just trying to keep their business a float or are they making as much of a profit so they can become bigger and better and put all the other companies out of business?

And again.. for the last time.. yes I buy products made in China, sometimes I have no choice, but I at least know where it came from beyond the UPS truck. Many of you... do not. So when something bad happens to any company that out sources to China to make their product so they can make a larger profit, I think they get what they deserve, and like someone else stated.. it's karma.
What I suggest then is that you go take pictures of the factories that DYE is using to produce their products. I suggest that you find out what they are being paid and if that is sufficient for their standard of living (IE paying for their food, rent, clothing, etc. according to the standards of their areas).

Seems to me that you think every factory in China is a sweat shop because you saw something or what some report stated about 21 factories. With the population of China, I doubt that 21 factories even scratch the surface of factory numbers…but I could be wrong.

And I find it pretty ballsy to make statements like you did. The ONLY reason DYE made the decision to move production to China is because they have slave labor and no work ethics?

Now, if you want to start comparing work environments, seems to me that here in the states we have some pretty unsafe places too even in spite of OSHA. Seems to me that we have folks laboring long hours in abysmal conditions for little to no pay… ever look into the coal mining industry? Oh, they sure live high on the hog don’t they (the workers).

Not every country who buys products from, or has things manufactured in China is an evil company. And if so, what does it say about you when you openly admit that you buy products made in China? And even more when you seem to feel so strongly about the issue. This is odd… very odd. Those who are ignorant have an excuse… but according to your own words, you KNOW what you are buying. ;)

My point is that you are sure tossing around a lot of stones for someone who does not have a single penny on the line. You want to laugh at “karma”, as if having something bad happen to someone for any reason is “good”. What would those who truly believe in Karma, and not just toss it around like a convenient banner, think of someone laughing at someone else’s misfortune(s), even if caused by karma? Wouldn’t that cause bad karma in itself?

Please don’t think this is a flame post, because it isn’t. Your views and words are disturbing, and contradict themselves.

langrage

07-23-2003, 02:39 PM

like stated before there is still no proof the DYE uses unfair labor and to assume they do because you found a report from 1998 on 21 "clothing" factories is absurd. What is minimum wage in America $5.15? so your example shows that people are making roughly 18 times less overseas than here. Do you think if we multiplied the cost by 18 that any one would buy the gloves?

America produces billions of tons of resin(plastic pellets used to make things out of plastic) a year. We ship it all over the world. These countries take our resin and manufacture it into commodities and then sell it to America. Why dosent America just keeps the resin and make the products? When we have to pay a worker 5.15 an hour to make a Gi Joe we cant sell them for $4. (I know that gi joes are made by machines but if we employ a hundred machines have we really increased the work force? its an example)

Maybe we should vent our frustrations at governments that allow these practices and not companies. It maybe argued that the companies are not helping by exploiting it but for every container that comes in from overseas there are at least 10 US jobs that benefit from it.

Animal Mother

07-23-2003, 02:44 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Seems to me that you think every factory in China is a sweat shop because you saw something or what some report stated about 21 factories.

I saw it first hand and have studied the subject, this is.. how 99% of the factories in China are. Why else would Dye outsource to them?

Originally posted by shartley

And I find it pretty ballsy to make statements like you did. The ONLY reason DYE made the decision to move production to China is because they have slave labor and no work ethics?

Exactly, to make a higher profit. If that was not the case then why does Dye pay the overseas shipping cost? Why not have a factory here in the U.S? Because it's cheaper in China.. and why is it Cheaper? Do your research for that answer.

Originally posted by shartley

Now, if you want to start comparing work environments, seems to me that here in the states we have some pretty unsafe places too even in spite of OSHA. Seems to me that we have folks laboring long hours in abysmal conditions for little to no pay… ever look into the coal mining industry? Oh, they sure live high on the hog don’t they (the workers).

Oh come on.. you don't really believe what you are saying do you? Speaking of coal miners.. ever watch insomniac on Comedy Central? he did a tour of one.. they weren't working 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 25 cents. Sure it's a sucky job, but there are laws that protect their human rights. Little to no pay? Ever hear of MINIMUM wage? If they are working and not getting the minimum wage then they are illegally working here in the united states.

Originally posted by shartley
Not every country who buys products from, or has things manufactured in China is an evil company. And if so, what does it say about you when you openly admit that you buy products made in China? And even more when you seem to feel so strongly about the issue. This is odd… very odd. Those who are ignorant have an excuse… but according to your own words, you KNOW what you are buying.

And if you have read any of my posts you would have the answer. I openly admit that I buy Chinese and am aware of how it was made. I alone cannot change things, many people can. The more people that can take that first step and think of how the product they are purchasing was made and the people that made it, then as a whole we can start to change things. Nike is a great example of this. People blindly throw their money at something and don't think of how it got there. I never said I wanted to boycott Dye or any company that out sources to China, I have said this many times. What I am saying is to be aware of the working conditions of the people that made your gear. People thought it was sooo sad that Dye got ripped off.. no.. it was not, because I know what kind of company Dye is. If Dye was a better company.. then I would have felt sorry, I would buy ALL my products made by Dye, but when the very product they had children made gets stolen from them.. I cannot feel sorry for them. That was my point all along. I never asked anyone to protest Dye, you'll never find me with a bunch of unbathed hippies protesting anything. But when I am faced by two products from different companies.. I wanna know where that product came from so it can be part of my decision to buy it.

shartley

07-23-2003, 03:12 PM

Originally posted by Animal Mother
I saw it first hand and have studied the subject, this is.. how 99% of the factories in China are. Why else would Dye outsource to them?
And you went to ALL of the other factories in China? You have proof that 99% of factories in China are like this? You post no proof, only claims.

Why else would Dye outsource to them? You are HONESTLY thinking they do it to help support oppression (as you claim), and all the other things you are so worried about?

How about this? What would all those poor repressed, overworked, underpaid, unsafe working condition, folks do if not for the jobs they HAVE? Interesting question, don’t you think? Better the hotdog I have than the steak I don’t have…..

And this is not endorsing slave labor or unsafe working conditions… it is only addressing the other side of a coin.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Exactly, to make a higher profit. If that was not the case then why does Dye pay the overseas shipping cost? Why not have a factory here in the U.S? Because it's cheaper in China.. and why is it Cheaper? Do your research for that answer.
And what is the cost of LIVING in these countries? Did you know that you can pay a 3rd World employee virtually nothing and still have them make MORE in comparison to their standard of living and cost of living? That alone would save companies money in production costs.

Research… done it. For every example of BAD things dealing with exported business, there are GOOD things as well. Of course you would have to want to see that… and clearly you do not want to. No problem. That is your choice.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Oh come on.. you don't really believe what you are saying do you? Speaking of coal miners.. ever watch insomniac on Comedy Central? he did a tour of one.. they weren't working 12 hours a day 7 days a week for 25 cents. Sure it's a sucky job, but there are laws that protect their human rights. Little to no pay? Ever hear of MINIMUM wage? If they are working and not getting the minimum wage then they are illegally working here in the united states.
Minimum wage does not help when the cost of living does not equate to your income. This is one thing that you keep forgetting, or don’t want to see.

And did you know that while I was in the Military we figured out our per hour wages and most of us were making LESS than minimum wage even when including what the government claimed were our benefits? How about 18+ hour work days and going weeks to over a month with no days off? Try being in a shortage MOS and one that requires 24 hour a day coverage. ;) Think it didn’t happen? Think again.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
And if you have read any of my posts you would have the answer. I openly admit that I buy Chinese and am aware of how it was made. I alone cannot change things, many people can. The more people that can take that first step and think of how the product they are purchasing was made and the people that made it, then as a whole we can start to change things. Nike is a great example of this. People blindly throw their money at something and don't think of how it got there. I never said I wanted to boycott Dye or any company that out sources to China, I have said this many times. What I am saying is to be aware of the working conditions of the people that made your gear. People thought it was sooo sad that Dye got ripped off.. no.. it was not, because I know what kind of company Dye is. If Dye was a better company.. then I would have felt sorry, I would buy ALL my products made by Dye, but when the very product they had children made gets stolen from them.. I cannot feel sorry for them. That was my point all along. I never asked anyone to protest Dye, you'll never find me with a bunch of unbathed hippies protesting anything. But when I am faced by two products from different companies.. I wanna know where that product came from so it can be part of my decision to buy it.
The excuse that those that are ignorant are wrong, but you (the informed) can’t do it alone is a weak arguing point.

You KNOW what kind of a company DYE is? So far nothing you said has held up to even mild scrutiny… sorry.

I applaud you for wanting to know where your products come from before you buy them. But I have a feeling that if anyone was to walk into your house and examine where everything was made (to include parts of things), your wanting to know would not matter much. Your arguing point is FANTASTIC if you toed your own line, but you don’t. And I think that is what folks are saying.

And it is actually worse to KNOW where you are “throwing your money at”, and still do it, than not knowing and doing it. You can’t see that? And to advocate (and by laughing at it you ARE advocating it) theft because you don’t like a company is just disturbing. How can any of your ivory tower arguments about the evil of Chinese labor hold up when you don’t care about THEFT in your own back yard? This is confusing.

As for working conditions… anyone know the working conditions for those who make the rubber seals on your cars? I do! I used to do it for a bit. 115+ heat, burning rubber, long days, etc. And all that for low pay. But I CHOSE to do it. ;) It fed my family and paid bills. And do Chinese workers have that choice? Are they held at gun point and marched into the factories? Or do they choose to work there and deal with the conditions that are present in each factory (again not even proven that every factory has conditions that you have described)? Again, interesting question.

But you are going to make a judgment on their style of life, their jobs, their culture, etc. Because in essence if they are not forced to work there, you are doing just that. And I can’t see how reducing jobs for them will HELP them in any way.

I don’t know…. you just confuse me. It baffles me how someone can take such different stances on things in the same breath. Oh well. Don’t buy from DYE for whatever reasons you have…. valid to me or others, or not. It is your money. I will not even argue with you on the matter. ;) But I hope you can see how laughing at theft is just wrong…. And even more so when you do so because you don’t “like” that party.

Webmaster

07-23-2003, 03:31 PM

First off - one of the reasons overseas labor is so much cheaper is thier cost of living is sooo much lower than it is here.

Second - Chinas Communist Government has 10x more to do with the conditions the workers work in than anything else.

You give China Democracy and a healthy dose of free trade and capitalism and see where it takes them!

UThomas

07-23-2003, 03:31 PM

People blindly throw their money at something and don't think of how it got there.

So if your big compelling point is that it is made by sweat shop works and that is bad, how does being aware of that and then not doing anything make it better?

Isn't that actually worse? Because people that didn't know can claim they didn't know. You on the other hand seem to be fully aware yet you STILL buy the products.

Hypocrit or enabler? Which is it? Or maybe you don't care about sweat shop workers as much as you claim.

Minimum wage does not help when the cost of living does not equate to your income. This is one thing that you keep forgetting, or don’t want to see.

Its obvious shartley had two spoon fulls of "correct" this morning for breakfast.

Albinonewt

07-23-2003, 03:52 PM

Here's the thing about international labor. Companies HAVE to do it now. Once one company figured out they could reduce costs by moving to Taipan or other areas it was all over. Now cheap labor has become an essential component of competitive pricing. There is nothing evil or immoral with outsourcing.

Now, that being said, it's not good for the country and for working people when companies ship jobs overseas. It is the responsibility of the government and of the community to give the companies incentive to stay. In your China example there just aren't the kind of envirnmental restrictions there are in the US. There also aren't organized labor unions. Now, protecting the envirnment and pampering the worker are both important, to one degree or another, but it makes it more expensive for the companies to stay here.

Simply put, by being "civilized" we hurt our ability to compete. And Dye, for whatever reason, noticed this and decided to import. It's too bad for us as a nation, but there's nothing wrong with it.

Animal Mother

07-23-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by shartley

Why else would Dye outsource to them? You are HONESTLY thinking they do it to help support oppression (as you claim), and all the other things you are so worried about?

They support oppression by funding the very 3rd party companies in China. If Dye did not give them any business then they wouldn't have a job, right?

They don't have to have no job at all. They can have BETTER working conditions. Microsoft picked up a factory in China to make Xbox's because their Mexico plant was not keeping up with demand. People were outraged because they would have children make toys for children in other countries. So.. part of the agreement Microsoft made was the workers could work no more than 50 hours a week and over 40 hours they would be paid overtime. You see the little difference that made? Does the job still suck? Sure.. but informed consumers voiced their opinion and Microsoft at least attempted to change their way. Not because it was the right thing to do.. but because it helped their business. You can still have a successful business without enslaving people. Dye is unknown when compared to a company like Microsoft, so they don't have to make such an agreement to satisfy the outraged people, they can go ahead and have their product made as cheaply as possible and the rich parents will still buy it for their kids that beg.

It reminds me of the episode of South Park, no one knew what Veil was, they just ate it because it tasted good. Once the kids found out it was calfs they changed the name of Veil to "Tourtured Little baby Cows" and no one bought Veil anymore, lol. If they changed "Made in China" to "Made by Slave Children in hot humid conditions for 12 hours a day"... do you think Dye would sell as many "Pit shirts" as they do?

The show 20/20 did a report on sweatshops overseas and the heads of theses companies were PISSED when they interviewed their employees and snuck hidden cameras into factories.

Why was that? Because it showed the truth and with the truth soccer moms watching 20/20 would start to protest and theses bosses would not be rich anymore.

Originally posted by shartley

And what is the cost of LIVING in these countries? Did you know that you can pay a 3rd World employee virtually nothing and still have them make MORE in comparison to their standard of living and cost of living? That alone would save companies money in production costs.

That's great, but how much of a life can a person have by working 12 hours a day 7 days a week? The only reason they are not working 24/7 is because the human body wouldn't last long under those conditions. That must suck for the slave masters..

Originally posted by shartley

I applaud you for wanting to know where your products come from before you buy them. But I have a feeling that if anyone was to walk into your house and examine where everything was made (to include parts of things), your wanting to know would not matter much.

I invite you, because half of the things I purchased the deciding factor was because it was not made in China. Another one was that all my Sony crap breaks 1 year later.. so most of my electronics were made in Japan by Panasonic. 1% is better than 0%.. 1% is a start in trying to change things in China, to give theses companies a reason to change their work ethics and make policies like Microsoft did for the Xbox.

Originally posted by shartley

As for working conditions… anyone know the working conditions for those who make the rubber seals on your cars? I do! I used to do it for a bit. 115+ heat, burning rubber, long days, etc. And all that for low pay. But I CHOSE to do it.

Exactly... theses people cannot get an education and choose another line of work. You can join the military and have them pay for half your college education, finical aid, student loans, when you get laid off you have unemployment. Theses people have NONE of this. You do and sit back and think everyone has the same luxury.

Originally posted by shartley

And do Chinese workers have that choice? Are they held at gun point and marched into the factories?

hahahaha... with our dealings with the Chinese government you REALLY think that is so far fetched?

Originally posted by shartley
And I can’t see how reducing jobs for them will HELP them in any way.

Again.. not reducing, putting pressure on companies to have part of their agreement that their workers have fair working conditions. Dye is too small to do such a thing, but they will grow.. and soon we will need to address theses issue and voice our concerns about their work ethics. Part of being informed... it has to start somewhere, being informed is the first step but I don't see anyone else making that first step.

shartley

07-23-2003, 04:35 PM

Originally posted by Animal Mother
They support oppression by funding the very 3rd party companies in China. If Dye did not give them any business then they wouldn't have a job, right?

They don't have to have no job at all. They can have BETTER working conditions. Microsoft picked up a factory in China to make Xbox's because their Mexico plant was not keeping up with demand. People were outraged because they would have children make toys for children in other countries. So.. part of the agreement Microsoft made was the workers could work no more than 50 hours a week and over 40 hours they would be paid overtime. You see the little difference that made? Does the job still suck? Sure.. but informed consumers voiced their opinion and Microsoft at least attempted to change their way. Not because it was the right thing to do.. but because it helped their business. You can still have a successful business without enslaving people. Dye is unknown when compared to a company like Microsoft, so they don't have to make such an agreement to satisfy the outraged people, they can go ahead and have their product made as cheaply as possible and the rich parents will still buy it for their kids that beg.

It reminds me of the episode of South Park, no one knew what Veil was, they just ate it because it tasted good. Once the kids found out it was calfs they changed the name of Veil to "Tourtured Little baby Cows" and no one bought Veil anymore, lol. If they changed "Made in China" to "Made by Slave Children in hot humid conditions for 12 hours a day"... do you think Dye would sell as many "Pit shirts" as they do?
I don’t buy this argument one bit. Sorry. I think you are not only exaggerating things, but mixing issues too conveniently. And by doing so, at least to me, you trialize real problems. Again, before you start saying what DYE is doing is done for XYZ reasons, and claim the factory workers they are helping employ fit the very definitions you are trying to assign to ALL Chinese factory workers, you should really have some sort of proof……

Simply put, you have none.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
The show 20/20 did a report on sweatshops overseas and the heads of theses companies were PISSED when they interviewed their employees and snuck hidden cameras into factories.

Why was that? Because it showed the truth and with the truth soccer moms watching 20/20 would start to protest and theses bosses would not be rich anymore.
How about this simple fact? ANY business would be pissed if it was being filmed without its knowledge. And you are trying to assign SOME things you have seen and were reported as being the ONLY way factories in China are run. I have a hard time believing this is factual. And again, thus far you have not shown proof of it, only conjecture.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
That's great, but how much of a life can a person have by working 12 hours a day 7 days a week? The only reason they are not working 24/7 is because the human body wouldn't last long under those conditions. That must suck for the slave masters..
Did you forget that I used to do just that? Did you forget that I used to work 12+ (note the +) hours a day and for extended periods that went from weeks to well over a month without even a single day off? And there were many others working right beside me… and our boss was the US Government. How about them apples? ;)

Originally posted by Animal Mother
I invite you, because half of the things I purchased the deciding factor was because it was not made in China. Another one was that all my Sony crap breaks 1 year later.. so most of my electronics were made in Japan by Panasonic. 1% is better than 0%.. 1% is a start in trying to change things in China, to give theses companies a reason to change their work ethics and make policies like Microsoft did for the Xbox.
Interesting…. But I doubt it. Please forgive me if I don’t believe you are being sincere and honest. And there is no need in trying to convince me otherwise because I have read too much of what you wrote to be swayed to think otherwise. I don’t mean this in a harsh way, just letting you know where I stand.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Exactly... theses people cannot get an education and choose another line of work. You can join the military and have them pay for half your college education, finical aid, student loans, when you get laid off you have unemployment. Theses people have NONE of this. You do and sit back and think everyone has the same luxury.
If you think joining the military is a “Luxury” you obviously have not served your country. ;)

As for being laid off and having unemployment…. Do you know the number of folk that work part time jobs with NO benefits, and any compensation they get for being laid off would not come close to paying their bills? From what I keep reading, I feel that you don’t have a true grasp of the work situation in the US, but I could be wrong. Maybe you are just not expressing yourself as well as you could.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
hahahaha... with our dealings with the Chinese government you REALLY think that is so far fetched?
Yes, I do.

Originally posted by Animal Mother
Again.. not reducing, putting pressure on companies to have part of their agreement that their workers have fair working conditions. Dye is too small to do such a thing, but they will grow.. and soon we will need to address theses issue and voice our concerns about their work ethics. Part of being informed... it has to start somewhere, being informed is the first step but I don't see anyone else making that first step.
ahhhhhhh, and there you have it. ;) You just said, in essence, that we can affect change in China by applying pressure while employing their people. Now THAT is something I can fully agree with you on. So, maybe we should not try to stop companies from employing Chinese workers in Chinese factories, but keep employing them in an attempt to further better their working conditions? ;) This is a radical departure from your ANTI Chinese involvement shown everyplace else in this thread.

And if you recall, the US didn’t always have the greatest working conditions either (and as stated they STILL don’t in some places.. legal or not). How long did it take us to change this? And we are a capitalistic nation. So any change for the better we can pressure China into making is a GOOD thing. But you have to deal with them for that to happen. You can’t sit back and say NO company should employ Chinese Factories to make their products UNLESS they do everything “we” want……. They will simply tell you to have a nice day, and close up their borders. Taking the hard line does not work with a country such as China…. In this case you get more changes by massaging than by beating. ;)