PDA

View Full Version : Cocker/Mag Hybrid



ZyperioN
07-25-2003, 07:51 PM
i was searching around punisher's and i saw the infamous mag with cocker trigger, and it got me thinking. I have a bunch of cocker parts left over from my semi-auto Maverick conversion so i was gonna try to put a hinge frame on my mag and have it work the 3-way which would be powered by the LPR im gonna use to tap into my main air source on the V/A. that would drive the ram that im gonna mount in the grip-frame just like an emag solenoid. So at the end i get a mag with a trigger pull equal to just the throw of a 3-way. Any thoughts, suggestions?

WickeDKlowN
07-26-2003, 10:29 AM
Good Luck! ;)

Willystyle21
07-27-2003, 06:20 PM
Dude when you do it give me a PM. Would love to know how to do that.

Willystyle21
07-27-2003, 06:27 PM
How bout this one

Willystyle21
07-27-2003, 06:28 PM
And this one

ZyperioN
07-27-2003, 06:49 PM
um thats the one on punisher.....

Yeah my design is about the same in operation but i wont be mounting a front block of any sort, the LPR will go into the gauge port on my V/A, the ram will be inside the hinge frame, and the 3-way will be facing the back and be mounted on the side of the frame to keep it out of the way on the front.

aut911
07-28-2003, 11:23 PM
one thing though. I woulndt suggest using a cocker ram because it has too long of a throw. go to clippard online and find a ram with a throw of less than .25 inches. thats should do fine.

aut

gasolineonthefire
07-28-2003, 11:40 PM
hey please dont beat me up over this but what did smart parts do??

ZyperioN
07-29-2003, 10:57 AM
They have been trying to patent all electronic markers, effectively monopolizing the paintball world. If the patent goes through they would own and ruin the high-end paintball world.

gasolineonthefire
07-29-2003, 11:22 AM
wow thats really gay. they should die. There guns suck anyway unless you soop em up.

Statik7
07-31-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by gasolineonthefire
wow thats really gay. they should die. There guns suck anyway unless you soop em up.
not to be off topic but grow up.

ZyperioN
07-31-2003, 06:59 PM
i agree

powerofthegospel
08-24-2003, 11:06 PM
also if you could pm me with a few details on how you plan to do/did this that'd be awesome. I got a medusa pretty cheap not too long ago, and started thinkin along the same lines as you. Any help would be MUCH appreciated.

Peace,
J.J.

ZyperioN
08-25-2003, 12:24 PM
here's a quick drawing of the plans i used.

gasolineonthefire
08-25-2003, 04:10 PM
hey man thats not cool, you didnt have to say something like that. also those plans look pretty cool thats really different looking,ive never seen that done. also that really does suck about what you said they were trying to do but i recently heard different. i heard that smart parts was only suing indian creeks right now for the electro switch or something like that but they were thinking about doing more. anyways, that looks cool i'd like to see one in an actual picture.

ZyperioN
08-25-2003, 04:32 PM
i would be glad to take one but i need to buy a new hinge frame and some small parts. so it's all waiting on the $$$. I hope ot have it completely done and be playing with it by christmas.

cris8762
08-25-2003, 08:05 PM
if you get thsi working well, i'd be interested in sending you my mag to get this done :D we'll talk if you'd be interested in it

Jack & Coke
09-03-2003, 05:18 PM
Cool ideas... :)

I found these pics over at PBN:

http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18777&perpage=40&pagenumber=10#post1520714


Originally posted by the electrician
here's my old blue pneuma-sear mag
http://home.kc.rr.com/theelectrician/magsideview.jpg

http://home.kc.rr.com/theelectrician/magsideview2.jpg

http://home.kc.rr.com/theelectrician/magclose-up.jpg

It's my back up gun and it needed a little softer shorter trigger... so I put some cocker parts on it. yeah I know it's blue

Did you ever get your version to work?

Jack & Coke
09-04-2003, 12:00 AM
regarding the gun in my last post...

The owner writes:



the electrician wrote on 09-03-2003 07:52 PM:

The trigger pull is 1 mm and about 10 oz of force... so yeah it's short and pretty light. I'm trying to get it lighter.

No. I can't walk the trigger, but then again I don't like to shoot that way. It is however, almost impossible to short stroke it. It can out shoot the revvy in the right hands. The damn thing gets hot.

It's a mod that takes a mill and alot of patience to do. It's pretty simple really if you have the tools. the ASA is tapped to put the reg on the front, then a slot is milled in the body rail for th hose to travel to a micro 3-way behind the trigger. The air then goes to a small air ylinder which pulls the sear down off the bolt.

I think that new on/off design (ULT) might reduce the psi input into the valve, thereby reducing the trigger pull force a bit.

I'm working on a new design that is easier to build and works on a lower psi. and an electro version.

You know, a WGP hinge frame, with a bomb 4-way could produce a super light, 1 mm trigger pull for a mag that would be scary. That might be something to think about... :)

ZyperioN
09-04-2003, 02:57 PM
thanks for that jack, yes i have gotten my design to work it's just not fully assembled yet, by holding the ram and 3way down with duct tape it does cycle quite well, i just gotta get the damn inner mounts made. Ill post pics when im done.

Jack & Coke
09-04-2003, 04:00 PM
Cool... are you using your mod with the new ULT?

ZyperioN
09-04-2003, 07:17 PM
nope, i could though, im only running the ram at 30 psi as it is so the ULT wouldn't make that much difference. PLus i got a classic valve on it so i'd have to go X before i could use the ult. WAIT.....No i wouldnt cause the ram would pull the sear back too, it wouldnt matter if the return force wasnt enough. ok im definately trying that once i get the thing done.

nicad
09-09-2003, 05:26 PM
about a year ago I made a first version of this same thing.. but with a custom made 3-way..
pull was ~0.5mm and wieght was ~2-3oz. however it didnt have fast enough fireing rate.

Iv since been working on a new prototype snap 3-way that should be the answer. if all goes well itll all be a drop-in mod for existing grips.

time will tell..

nicad
09-09-2003, 05:29 PM
oh yeah.. im doing this for mags and other mechanical type markers as well..

**edit: Just came across this thread again have removed un-necessary negative comment about Smart Parts. **

Jack & Coke
09-09-2003, 06:25 PM
woot! woot!

nicad, you got any pics of your creation? :)

nicad
09-09-2003, 06:27 PM
I should somewhere.. if i come across them (ie find them!) ill post em up!

Jack & Coke
09-09-2003, 07:16 PM
http://www.mit.edu/~dfm/doctorsoda/cool.jpg

ZyperioN
09-09-2003, 07:17 PM
yeah the whole screw smart-parts was a big reason i started designing this. To give the mag and electro-like pull without messy electronics and the whole patent-issue

personman
09-12-2003, 07:02 PM
I was just looking at pbn's mag pic thread and I saw that same post that jack & coke quoted and I realised how cool it would be to do this.. And as it was mentioned above, ULT = lighter force.. all you need is a ram that would work better (one for cockers = too long of a throw methinks) and maybe a bit less powerful to save space, and a 3way + lpr and.. damn its so tempting but I know ill start on it and then drift out of it like I do on every single other project I do. :p If you do end up doing it make sure to leave plans and stuff. :)

ZyperioN
09-13-2003, 03:27 PM
oh dont you guys worry i have every intention of doing this, just gotta get the money all together for the finished product's parts.

nicad
09-22-2003, 12:31 PM
latest prototype 3-way valve is 2.5oz pull weight and 0.003" stroke. (yes thats 1/13 of a mm)
ofcourse real-world application will have to be more than that to cover for reliability and variances..

hooraa! :)

personman
09-22-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by nicad
latest prototype 3-way valve is 2.5oz pull weight and 0.003" stroke. (yes thats 1/13 of a mm)
ofcourse real-world application will have to be more than that to cover for reliability and variances..

hooraa! :)
Wow that is so awesome.. thats like.. electro trigger mag... without the electronics! Sweeet ;)

Jack & Coke
09-22-2003, 12:50 PM
I second that... Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet!

ZyperioN
09-22-2003, 03:53 PM
damn you nicad now i gotta wait to buy this new 3-way.:D Any info on the maker and a release date?

NoFearPaintballer
09-24-2003, 11:37 AM
When your done pm me i wanna know how 2 make one or ill buy one from u for a good price

nicad
09-24-2003, 12:20 PM
still revising the valve setup.. trying to get the pull weight down.
target for a working prototype is World Cup.

out!

nicad
10-06-2003, 10:19 PM
OK yall i have a working prototype trigger on a gun now.
some specs-
trigger pull weight(at lightest setting): 2.0oz
trigger stroke distance: ~0.010"
ROF: tested/verified at 20.4bps.
I personally can pull a verfied ~14.5bps.
this is NOT an electrical trigger. it is mechanical. no more batteries. no more smartparts.

drop by the AGD booth at Worldcup to check it out (if its not broken yet). :)

attached is a soundclip of it doing 20.4bps. yes its "full auto". the trigger is physically being pulled by an air ram driven by a Race board. some say that means nothing. I say it means its a mechanical gun capable of hitting 20bps with the feel of an electro-trigger.

http://www.deadlywind.com/hAir/hAir ROF test 20bbps max.wav

Jack & Coke
10-06-2003, 11:30 PM
OMG!!!:eek:

That is very cool!

Any pics?

unrealsm
10-06-2003, 11:32 PM
Well I have been following this thread for a while and all I can say is WOW!!!!!!!!! And when are the mods going to be available to public?

trxtr
10-07-2003, 09:59 PM
a ram like the E-99 uses. one air input, spring return (it's how the mag's bolt recocks), and a small 2-way in the grip.

Crimson_Turkey
10-13-2003, 01:00 AM
Then Christ was accidentally reborn as an automag. Thank you nicad. On the other hand, It's another 2003 years until the guy comes back.

ZyperioN
10-13-2003, 02:13 PM
the e99 doesnt use a pnematic ram, it's an electric solenoid FYI

nicad
10-13-2003, 03:07 PM
im hopeing to get an I or Y-frame soon and see how well it can be fitted. right now its built into an angel gripframe (for its space), which is bolted to a mag.

The E99 does use an air ram to drive the hammer directly. what do you think the electro-pneumatic solenoid connects to?

ZyperioN
10-13-2003, 04:53 PM
im looking at the Kingmanusa.com diagram of the spyder E99 and from what i see it doesnt use an air ram or a a electro-pneumatic solenoid. I maybe missing something but the solenoid in the e99 is a pure electronic ram that trips the sear, nowhere is a solenoid 3-way or an air ram. The E99 is still a sear-tripper, you nicad, seem to be describing something along the lines of a 'Timmy.

nicad
10-13-2003, 05:04 PM
Your correct, ZyperioN.
I am thinking of the Kingman EM1, not the E99. My mistake.
The EM1 is pretty old. :)

unrealsm
10-13-2003, 10:35 PM
so do you have any pics? I really want to see it

ej_y4
10-22-2003, 01:21 AM
This is an awsome idea, can i see pics.....please

so much for smart-parts

xrancid_milkx
10-22-2003, 01:48 AM
Any updates on this work piece? Any pictures? i've been following this for a while and find it quite interesting.

ZyperioN
10-22-2003, 02:08 PM
well as for my project it's been postponed until i can get the new hinge frame and the ram is still on backorder at McMaster. i have it cycling fine with a stock frame and a stock ram but it's held together by duct tape and is nowhere near the point that i would be comfortable in releasing it. If all goes well it should be done by christmas.

Fixion
10-27-2003, 11:32 PM
Thats a great idea, I should trade my cocker for a mag and do that to it. Then I could have the best of both worlds, a super smooth trigger, and a fast gun.

laxkid
11-01-2003, 10:15 PM
Zyperion I am going to come up and play with you guys soon just pm me when you can play. nicad that is going to be sick

ZyperioN
11-02-2003, 08:53 PM
sure man, i wanna play sometime soon. We also had our one front player leave the team due to him not getting the grades his parents wanted him to get so if you end up fitting in well with our guys you might wanna join our team.

laxkid
11-02-2003, 09:05 PM
that would be awesome I am a front player

ZyperioN
11-02-2003, 09:09 PM
sweet, hit me up on aim : DrAxXuS91

Toranaga
11-08-2003, 05:40 PM
any news on this project?

trevorjk
11-08-2003, 05:55 PM
yeah once you or nicad perfect this im sending my gun with ule trigger to you right away :) i hope youve started on the ule one if not im sure i could sell my ule trigger for about 30$ to help cover the cost for the conversion

nicad
11-08-2003, 07:37 PM
Yall-
Due to recent events, I am not able to make this for any individuals right now.

on to other things.. :)

out!

trevorjk
11-08-2003, 09:53 PM
what could be bigger and better then this for all mags? damn it better be good or have to do with a girl or girls other wise you have explaining to do :)

Kellen_p8nt
11-10-2003, 09:12 PM
I relize you plan on using a cocker fram(i assume). But would it be feasible to do this to a Z-frame. Ive been looking for other ways to up the ractivity on my mag...

mcveighr
11-11-2003, 08:45 AM
ZyperioN,
Nothing to do with your project sorry but why do you have an AA pic in your sig but also an anti-smart parts pic?

ZyperioN
11-11-2003, 06:17 PM
I live about 45 mins north of Philly and support my home team no matter who sponsors them, plus they are the 2003 NXL Champions. I support the team, the team doesn't make assinine business moves, the team doesn't try to monopolize and ruin the sport, so in that case i have nothing against the team, i know 2 of the guys personally and they dont completely agree with the moves made by SP either. So just because they are sponsored by them doesn't mean that they agree with everything that SP stands for, hell most of them don't have a choice and are just happy to be on a pro team. It's not like other sports where there are many other opprotunities whether it be with different teams or in other pro leagues, so most of these players would jump at the chance to play in the NXL no matter who it's for.

trxtr
11-11-2003, 09:18 PM
I stand corrected, I meant EM-1

thanx
trxtr

ZyperioN
11-11-2003, 09:37 PM
Yeah thats what i thought you were talking about but i wasnt sure, for a second i thought my limited knowledge of the hordes of spyder guns was failing me lol. But yes in the em1's case it would be better to use a 2-way penumatic ram instead of a srping return because of the lower pressure that could be used plus it would cycle faster than a spring return, but i can see where your going with that one. Once again i wanna remind everyone that my project has been put on hold due to financial issues, most of which is my quest to buy a viking, so in my mind i'd rather have the viking than try and make a penumatic mag. So once my quest is complete and i obtain my viking the pneumatic controlled mag project will be back.

Thanx to everyone for their input and support!!!

Toranaga
11-11-2003, 09:51 PM
Can you give me a link to the ram that you bought?

My friend adn I are gonna do this project and I can't sem to find the right ram (it is the same design as yours).

By the way, great design. :)
After we do this we are going to move on and make a searless mag (mew haha). I'll give out my designs for that at another time though.

Thanks,
Andrew

mcveighr
11-11-2003, 10:40 PM
I support the team, the team doesn't make assinine business moves, the team doesn't try to monopolize and ruin the sport

But the guys that own the team and play for them do?

whatever though, I know what you mean.

ZyperioN
11-12-2003, 05:21 PM
Toranga just look on McMaster.com, it's a steel cylinder ram with a throw of about a 1/4 to 1/3 of an inch.

ZyperioN
11-12-2003, 05:24 PM
What do you mean the people who own the team, as far as i know no one from SP plays for the team and SP does not own the team. The team just took the sponsorship, SP has no rights to the Philly Americans.

cris8762
11-12-2003, 05:31 PM
dont the Gardner brothers play on Philly?

i know they played on AA, dunno about philly

trxtr
11-12-2003, 06:26 PM
right on. I'm bad @ saving $$. so a viking will never happen for me. good luck on your quest.

trxtr

ZyperioN
11-12-2003, 06:30 PM
i dont believe the gardners are on the team , i think they both have retired from playing pro, they have to be quite old you know.

Im not that great at saving money either but the viking is and im willing to go to get it:)

Duck Hunt
12-08-2003, 12:22 AM
Hey this thread looks alittle dead but I need some help! I'm big into hot roding stuff and I'm just getting into paintball this year. I've choosen to build an Automag and this project looks like it would kick *** but I know nothing about autocockers! any one have completed plans on this and info on autococker parts for me? any help would be much apreciated!

Sean

ej_y4
12-12-2003, 01:07 PM
Originally posted by Duck Hunt
Hey this thread looks alittle dead but I need some help! I'm big into hot roding stuff and I'm just getting into paintball this year. I've choosen to build an Automag and this project looks like it would kick *** but I know nothing about autocockers! any one have completed plans on this and info on autococker parts for me? any help would be much apreciated!

Sean


you would be better off getting the ULT. plus its alot cheepier:)

Duck Hunt
12-12-2003, 05:19 PM
Heh yeah I really wanted to build a Mag, buuut then they started selling the RT for cheap with all those upgrades! Now I want that =)

Sean "Duck Hunt"

luke
12-14-2003, 10:19 AM
I don’t have any experience with cockers, I was wondering what it takes to run a three-way valve? Does the valve need to be regulated or can it run off 800-900 psi?

the electrician
12-14-2003, 10:41 AM
yikes!
yeah you don't want to do that. the valve just controls the air cylinder(ram). the lower you can get it to operate the better IF you are using a mechanical 3-way.

now if you are using the ram as double acting, like on a cocker, then you need to use a 4-way, like on a cocker. but I've found that for pneumatic sear control for a mag, you really only need a single acting ram, and a 3-way.

if you make it electro, then you just need to keep the input psi in the range of the solenoid valve you are using.

I just tapped a hole in the front of the vertical asa to put a palmer's micro rock reg on to feed the ram.

luke
12-14-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by the electrician
if you are using the ram as double acting, like on a cocker, then you need to use a 4-way, like on a cocker. but I've found that for pneumatic sear control for a mag, you really only need a single acting ram, and a 3-way.


Can you explain the mechanics of the 4-way and also the 3-way with the single acting ram??

In regard to operating pressure, you say the lower the better, would that be lower than 100 psi?

the electrician
12-14-2003, 11:58 AM
a 4-way has two outputs one normally open and one normally closed. so the supply (input) is going to one side of the ram, holding it position. when the valve is actuated, the input is redirected to the other output, applying air to the other side of the ram. the other input(the normally open) is closed off from the input and is opened to exhaust it's air. you must be able to exhaust the air from oe side of the ram to fill the other. when the valve returns to normal position, the normally closed output goes back to being closed off to the input and is opened to it's exhaust. so you have 1 input, 2 outputs, and atleast 1 exhaust port, and in many cases 2.
so that's why it's called a 4-way. many are 5 port 4-ways(the 2 exhausts)

a 3-way valve has only one output. so it has either a normally closed or normally open output, depending on how it is hooked up, and an input and exhaust.
1 input, 1 output, and one exhaust. this makes it a 3-valve.

most things pneumatic can be explained on the clippard website: clippard.com
go to this download page:http://www.clippard.com/downloads/?strStart=\downloads\general\PDF_Documents

yes you want to use a regulator to get the pressure down below 100 psi. palmer reg are about the best to use to get 800 psi input down below 100psi.

luke
12-14-2003, 01:16 PM
Thanks.

Chojin Man
12-15-2003, 06:01 PM
Sorry to bring up the whole SP subject again, but I don't see how it would be possible for them to patent the electro technology. Does anyone know any links to info on this subject. I would like to learn more about this.

jewie27
12-23-2003, 04:44 AM
why would you want one of those leaky 3-ways and hoses hanging out all over the place. Just get a X-valve and ULE Trigger; problem solved. No need for a dumb swing trigger when you can have a simple ULE trigger. (not even a trigger)

ZyperioN
12-23-2003, 09:01 PM
yeah but then again....this would be cooler lol. for us tinkerers who have the time, it's more about making something amazing with our own work and ingenuity, any idiot can put an xvalve and ult in, but wheres the fun in doing that;)

the electrician
12-23-2003, 11:19 PM
actually cockers use 4-ways, and no I use an actual 3-way. a micro 3-way clippard part #SMAV-3.

no leaking. it's a hell of alot cheaper than your suggestion.

besides, people can make whatever they want. if you don't want to, then don't, just stay out of the workshop forum.

MojojojoAF
12-24-2003, 12:25 AM
Hello, I am a longtime cocker owner (I know I know I know), anyways several things have struck me about the mag that I like. One of which is the ability to shoot fast and not chop (enter the lvl10). However, I just read this thread because I had been thinking of the the same thing as far as a pnuematically assisted trigger system. Which is totally possible with mags, but quite unlikely with a cocker.

My real quesitons is, if Nicad had been working on something that was 2-3oz pull and .5mm in length, I am sorry for not under standing how you could not rip it? that is an incredibly light and small trigger pull, even for an electro.

Also is the ULT kit and Xvalve so good that as someone said before just put them in and problem solved? I have seen some pretty good trigger setups in Mags, so give me a good breakdown between the two.

Thanks guys and this is my first post @ Automags.org, I should have my first mag in a month or sooner.

:D

nicad
12-24-2003, 01:00 AM
An Xvalve with ULT in it is a nice mechanical.. but still very much no mistaking its mechanical. the ULT does not shorten the trigger pull, but it lowers the pull weight down to around 16oz i think??

you can put a cocker/Clippard/etc 3way in a mag frame and make a nice trigger pull as well.

What iv done is developed a hybrid 3-way specifically for this application and yes it is 2oz pull weight and ~.004" travel (thats 0.1mm). Most electro triggers, even some "tuned" ones, have a longer/harder pull. When you say "rip".. you mean shoot fast? cause it does.. and with little effort. I can "two-finger-tap" the trigger up to around 14-15bps.

I havent been saying too much about the project due to some protection processes and some coming work that ill be doing with some companies with it in the near future... and im not just blowing smoke here either. :)

out!

ps- welcome MojojojoAF to AO...

ZyperioN
12-24-2003, 06:24 PM
yeah blowing smoke would be unhealthy ;)

MojojojoAF
12-25-2003, 11:12 PM
Thanks guys for the welcome, also thanks Nicad for the info. With all the bull flying aounrd with Smart Parts lawsuit I am very interested in moving away from an Elctro all together and staying mechanical.

I see that the stock pull on an intelliframe is not overly long, and I have been reading on the sear mod that would shorten the pull a bit more, I like that.

Well, as soon as I get my mag I will be a happy man. In the mean time this is what I play with now.

Mateo
12-26-2003, 02:13 AM
Not to seem rude, welcome to AO and all, but umm...theres a forum called Friendly Corner.;)

AGDlover
01-03-2004, 03:10 AM
Originally posted by Willystyle21
And this one

lissen good now a HP gun with a LP reg should not be done. heres whats going to happen A: ur going to put a LP tank on it and strave your gun for air and not have a good refill time therefore messing up your gun complety or B you put a HP tank and destroy the LPR

kapaintballman
01-08-2004, 07:01 PM
hey, I am going to do this mod. I know pretty much how im going to do it(preety much just how your did), but im not sure how to get the 3-way in the trigger frame (intelliframe) and not have it in the way of the ram's rod that goes up to the sear. of course, when i was seeing if the 3-way would fit in the trigger frame, i was using a stock cocker 3-way. I am planning on using a shocktech bomb 3-way for the actual project. is the bomb 3-way any smaller than the stock cocker 3-way?:confused:

cledford
01-15-2004, 10:07 PM
Any suggestions for the ram? I'd like to try one of these and wouldn't mind any advice that is offered.

-Calvin

cledford
01-16-2004, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by the electrician
actually cockers use 4-ways, and no I use an actual 3-way. a micro 3-way clippard part #SMAV-3.


E:

Is there any place cheaper then Clippard to purchase the 3 way? I was shocked by the fact that they charge a "handling fee" of more then the cost of the part it's self. Money's a little tight right now and the fee is obnoxious.

I see how you mounted it in the frame, but what did you do for linkage to the trigger? How about the ram you used?

Thanks,

-Calvin

Timmee
01-16-2004, 12:29 PM
Here's a ram I was thinking of using for a project like this:

http://www.clippard.com/store/display_details.asp?sku=SM%2D6

Would it be acceptable for the purpose of tripping the sear? How would I go about actuating the sear with it? For those people that have already gotten this project to work, did you need to use a 90 degree bellcrank between the sear and the ram (that's how I was considering hooking it up)?

the electrician
01-17-2004, 09:54 AM
you guys need to do some more home work to pick your parts.

how much max. force will that ram generate? how much do you need?

you need to either pull the front of the sear down, or better yet, push the sear in the same place the rod does. this way you don't have to actually connect it to the sear.

the trigger in a mag pushes on the trigger rod right? so I just put the SMAV-3 behind the trigger, a bit hight than where the rod used to hit the trigger. take the rod and clevis off of the sear.

this whole mod is dependant on access to a mill. and some of the cuts are a little tricky. you do have to take your time.

just make sure you plan out what you are going to do, before you start. do your homework.

gunselman
01-21-2004, 07:13 PM
Okay guys i saw that Pnuema-sear mag on punishers a long time ago and thought that it sounded like a great i dea and i did some investigation and drew up some plans in AutoCad and have started some Rhino modeling. But i have been having a creative block when it comes to linking the Ram to the sear. If you guys can give me any help on this part that would be great.

ZyperioN
01-21-2004, 07:54 PM
think emag....

gunselman
01-21-2004, 08:28 PM
Hey i was thinking of ways to connect the ram to the sear i was thinking that i am using a retro valve, and i was thinking that i could use the EMAG sear and connect the Ram to the the the plunger on the Emag sear. Hear is a really ****ty Pic of what i was thinking of doing, it shoudl work just ignore the Paint program i don't have photshop on this computer..


I think that it would work great because it is almost the exact same setup that there is in a Emag only they have an elctronic solenoid instead of a Ram.

Lets hear some feedback Guys!!!

kapaintballman
01-21-2004, 08:45 PM
wat i was ganna do is jus cut off the little peice of metal that sticks down from the sear, and take off that trigger rod and watever the thing that that screws into off, and then drillin a hole in the back of the sear, and taking the trigger rod and that pivoting peice watever, and puttin that in the drilled hole, and hooking the the trigger rod 2 the ram (a lot like wat gunselmen said, except the sear wont have that extra peice of metal reaching down, and it will go right up 2 the sear) sry im like dislexic, i cant explain worth ****, but hopefully u can understand that

ZyperioN
01-21-2004, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by ZyperioN
think emag....

Like i said......:rolleyes:

kapaintballman
01-21-2004, 09:33 PM
hey man, u gatta understand, im a bit slow, and most the time i look like this---->:confused:

gunselman
01-21-2004, 10:14 PM
Hey, kapaintballman that s basically what i did only i used a Emag sear and just deleted the regular mechanical trigger rod off from it. Here is a pic of the regulare Retro Valve Sear and then the Emag SEar.


By the way Zyperion what do you mean "think emag"

gunselman
01-21-2004, 10:29 PM
They didn't both come up so here is the Emag sear, you can tell that it would work almost perfect for what we are talking about here and it isnt' that expenisve its only $55.00. And if it will work than that a cheap and creative way of doing it.


Or i guess you could jsut use the regular sear and shorten the rod, not to sure if the angle is going to work for what we are talking about here though?

Thoughts???????

Punisher
01-22-2004, 05:15 PM
Hi guys,
Southbayjay told me there was a thread here about the PneuMag so I thought I'd pop in.

The one displayed in my gallery was built to the customer's specs: He wanted a slide trigger and front mounted pneumatics so that's what he got.
I built the ram to suit, it's got a grand total throw of 3/16" when running free. It runs at 45psi. I do wish I'd had an E-mag sear when I built it originally, t'would have made things easier.

I've since redesigned the conversion for a couple reasons. Directly linking to the sear is a pain in the butt and seems to cause some some wear and consistency issues. My new layout is pneumatic but has NO RAM. Wrap your brains around that.....hehehehehe.

Also, for you home builder types...a little hint that some may not want you to have. most every solenoid valve out there that's used in current paintball guns has a mechanical counterpart. Basically the same valve section but no electric coil. These puppies have ridiculously short throws and switch VERY quickly. A very good way to get that ultra short trigger pull. One should consider though that you need a certain amount of hysteresis or hold up for the close time. A trigger pull that's too short on a marker of this nature will make it tough to cycle smoothly.

So far the best over all results have been with one a couple setups.

1) Hinge frame (your choice) and Shockteck Bomb or similar 3-ring 4-way valve. With and Eclipse hinge and bomb I've tuned for a 2mm pull that allowed enough hold up to cycle smooth and consistent.

2) Mag spec Dye single trigger frame and mechanical version of the Humphrey's 401 valve. I had an adjustable linkage on this setup that allowed trigger throw from a baseline of 1.775mm down to a ridiculous .53mm!

I'll have to go back and read tis whole thread when I get a chance, looks like a good one!

the electrician
01-22-2004, 06:01 PM
I took your advice a long while back and changed my old blue pneu-mag design to a horizontal valve actuator with a small piston in it which acts the ram. it has a 3/16" stroke. it is not actually conected to the sear, and has a spring return to help conserve air.

it worked well with an SMAV-3 valve behind the trigger, but it's even better with a morlock, 9v, and a MAC. it easily raps out 16 bps with a standard valve.

I'm now in the process of cramming a super small solenoid valve in the grip, mounted to the actuator with a homemade manifold.

so it will be a n e-mag of sorts, but no giant battery, and all in the grip but the palmer micro rock.

when I get it done I'll have to take some pics

ZyperioN
01-22-2004, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by gunselman
By the way Zyperion what do you mean "think emag"

Obviously i mean think like an emag, the solenoid in an emag serves the same purpose as a ram in this project:rolleyes:

Jack & Coke
01-22-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Punisher
Hi guys,
Southbayjay told me there was a thread here about the PneuMag so I thought I'd pop in.

The one displayed in my gallery was built to the customer's specs: He wanted a slide trigger and front mounted pneumatics so that's what he got.
I built the ram to suit, it's got a grand total throw of 3/16" when running free. It runs at 45psi. I do wish I'd had an E-mag sear when I built it originally, t'would have made things easier.

I've since redesigned the conversion for a couple reasons. Directly linking to the sear is a pain in the butt and seems to cause some some wear and consistency issues. My new layout is pneumatic but has NO RAM. Wrap your brains around that.....hehehehehe.

Also, for you home builder types...a little hint that some may not want you to have. most every solenoid valve out there that's used in current paintball guns has a mechanical counterpart. Basically the same valve section but no electric coil. These puppies have ridiculously short throws and switch VERY quickly. A very good way to get that ultra short trigger pull. One should consider though that you need a certain amount of hysteresis or hold up for the close time. A trigger pull that's too short on a marker of this nature will make it tough to cycle smoothly.

So far the best over all results have been with one a couple setups.

1) Hinge frame (your choice) and Shockteck Bomb or similar 3-ring 4-way valve. With and Eclipse hinge and bomb I've tuned for a 2mm pull that allowed enough hold up to cycle smooth and consistent.

2) Mag spec Dye single trigger frame and mechanical version of the Humphrey's 401 valve. I had an adjustable linkage on this setup that allowed trigger throw from a baseline of 1.775mm down to a ridiculous .53mm!

I'll have to go back and read tis whole thread when I get a chance, looks like a good one!

Hello Punisher!

First... southbayjay = me! :)

Second, thank you for joining our party!!!

Thanks for dropping some knowledge... your experiences are much appreciated!

A few quick questions...

- Does this PneuMag mod shortstoke?
- Can you "walk the trigger" on this mod? (hinge trigger of course)
- Do you have any photos of your "new" redesigns? (options 1 and 2 as you stated)
- No ram???:confused:
- How much would these conversions cost? (ballpark?)

thanks!

Jack & Coke
(southbayjay;))

gunselman
01-26-2004, 09:41 PM
Hey guys,,


I am in the process of chopping up my mag to do this mod on it and i can;t really figure out witch ram to use? Could i use a autococker mini ram or should i use the SM-6 or should i use the Mechanical version of Humphreys 401 valve, (I really can't find any info on that valve so..)


I haven't really devised a plan to link the 4-way that i am using yet either, but i was plannign on atttaching it to a Logic Vert Frame, but i can't fin a good way of attaching it to any frame without it being in the way.

I guess if i used an autococker hinge frame and Milled it out like Punisher said that would work but i was wanting to use a Logic Vert frame. S

So if you guys can help me out a bit that would be great!!

LudavicoSoldier
01-28-2004, 04:26 PM
Can we get some pics? This sounds interesting for a home project. Or are you all keeping your designs secret? :(

Green_kat
02-21-2004, 01:45 PM
Hey, quick question, roughly how much force is the ram gonna need? I've so far been unsuccessful in finding a small enough ram with any more than 2-5 pounds of pressure with an input of 40-100 psi. Any help would be appreciated.

Jack & Coke
03-03-2004, 02:13 AM
Heh... looks like we can't use the name "Hybrid" anymore with regards to paintball:

http://www.forceofnature.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=834&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0




Powerlyte Inc. is proud to announce that we have been granted a United States Trademark (Registration number 2,788,487, issue date December 2, 2003) for the name Hybrid. This is the fourth trademark issued to Powerlyte Inc.

The U.S. Patent and Trademark Office determined that the name Hybrid, relating to the paintball industry, met well-established criteria for issuance of a trademark.
Read more...

This trademark clearly designates the name Hybrid to be used only in accordance with Powerlyte Inc. The trademark covers use of Hybrid as the name of a product or company associated with the paintball industry. All parties interested in or currently using the name Hybrid should contact Powerlyte Inc. for licensing agreements.

About Powerlyte - Powerlyte was founded in 1995, incorporated in 1996 and relocated to North Carolina in 1999. Originally founded as a paintball product manufacturer, Powerlyte’s precision machining and design capability have since established it as a full product design and development house with customers in the Paintball, Firearms, Motorcycle, Medical, Nascar and Aerospace industries. We encourage companies interested in product development ventures to contact us for consultations and quotes.

la690
03-11-2004, 10:55 PM
can someone explain hysteresis?

Jack & Coke
03-12-2004, 01:26 AM
http://www.cus.cam.ac.uk/~bag10/hysteresis%20measurements%2016.gif

la690
03-12-2004, 12:17 PM
:confused:

Dubstar112
03-17-2004, 04:06 PM
What future does this project have? Is there some affiliation with AGD?

kapaintballman
03-17-2004, 07:27 PM
im working on mine, i still havnt gotten my 3-way that i ordered jan 17 from 888, those jackasses. i dont think this project is affiliated with agd at all, but they may want to take this idea up, i mean a mag with a feather light trigger pull, and no electronics, what could be better?

nicad
03-17-2004, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by kapaintballman
... i dont think this project is affiliated with agd at all ..."affiliated"- no. so far the hAir trigger has been compleatly my work (others have built similar devices).
I wouldnt be so hastey to say if AGD will be "affiliated" with this in the future or not. Time will tell.


Originally posted by Dubstar112
What future does this project have?...Vast. very very Vast. and time is of the essence.


Originally posted by kapaintballman
... i still havnt gotten my 3-way that i ordered...just FYI- any "pneumatic mag" project based on a 4 way cocker LP valve will be OK, but is nothing like what the hAir trigger is. If anyone can get a 2oz pull weight, 1/100" (yep, 0.01" = .254mm) pull stroke (consult your hysteresis lessons above), and cylce up to 20.4CPS with a cocker 4way.. I'll be the first to congratulate. ;)

Jack & Coke
03-17-2004, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by nicad

...but it is nothing like what the hAir trigger is. If anyone can get a 2oz pull weight, 1/100" (yep, 0.01" = .254mm) pull stroke (consult your hysteresis lessons above), and cylce up to 20.4CPS...


OMG!!!
:eek:

nicad, you're such a tease! When you say, time is of the essence, are you talking 2004ish?

kapaintballman
03-17-2004, 08:03 PM
FYI, I said feather trigger, and the stroke of a shocktech bomb 3-way is short and easy. I was exagerating(dunno how 2 spell) i didnt honestly mean "a feather trigger pull"

Dubstar112
03-18-2004, 03:09 PM
My brain hurts from your coolness. :)

Anyone want to trade a Series 5 for a mag w/xvalve? So I can have this done to my mag(from the trade)... :)(Seriously now...)

kapaintballman
03-18-2004, 06:10 PM
well, if you are ganna have an x-valve, u should just get the ULE trigger or watever, its cheaper, and not as much work. and was that coolness compliment 4 me? cus if it was, ya damn skippy:eek:

nicad
03-18-2004, 06:38 PM
I will finally have access to a digital video camera (yes I'm cheap- I dont own one!) over the weekend. if I get the time, I will try to get some video of the hAir in operation... I cant promise anything tho. If I have a video link up after the weekend you will know it was done. And if not, then not. :)

out!

Dubstar112
03-18-2004, 06:44 PM
no it was for colin. lol.

Colin: Did you ever end up doing any thing cool with that Hyperframe I sold you?

Why not have this mod on a X valve with ULE trigger? Super fast, super short and true LP trigger operation... I thought that was the point of nicad's mod.

Jack & Coke
03-18-2004, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by nicad
I will finally have access to a digital video camera (yes I'm cheap- I dont own one!) over the weekend. if I get the time, I will try to get some video of the hAir in operation... I cant promise anything tho. If I have a video link up after the weekend you will know it was done. And if not, then not. :)

out!

nicad, pics and videos are your friends. They want to come to the party too!:D

BTW, how do I get on the waiting list for this thing?;)

Sign me up!

la690
03-18-2004, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Jack & Coke


nicad, pics and videos are your friends. They want to come to the party too!:D

BTW, how do I get on the waiting list for this thing?;)

Sign me up!

DITTO! i really would sign up/pay right now. assuming its not hella 'spensive.

the electrician
03-18-2004, 09:31 PM
nicad- yeah if you get the camera fired up, take some shots of that integrated rail e-mag all finished up. I'd love to see that thing too!

Buff
03-18-2004, 10:24 PM
any idea when it will be for sale?

nicad
03-22-2004, 02:54 AM
just dropping in to say a video is up of the hAir trigger..
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1360501

the electrician- didnt get a chance to lite up the electro counter-part gun yet. sorry!

out!

Lord_Whoopass
03-22-2004, 03:53 AM
NiCad you are A GOD!!! when can I get this mod done to my gun?? any ETA yet? My jaw hit the keyboard and I started drooling the more I watched it... I WANT ONE!!! :D

Jack & Coke
03-22-2004, 04:06 AM
I think we all want one!

nicad is gonna see some serious $$$ coming his way :D

the electrician
03-22-2004, 02:30 PM
sheer genious!

I have to see the guts of this thing!

a specially designed valve to control an actuator that moves the sear?

whatever it is it seems extremely effective.

2 oz trigger pull?!? I would have to stiffen it up at first just to get used to it!

I want to see a whole team of these mowin' people down and dominating local tournaments.

now THAT, truly is a breakthrough in non-electro paintball.

hats off to you Nicad.

Dubstar112
03-22-2004, 03:45 PM
Cool. Will you be selling a complete setup?


btw my scale says a quarter is 0.2 oz. Is that correct?

kapaintballman
04-12-2004, 10:46 AM
nicad's trigger is totally kickass, but if any1 cares i have just about finished my trigger with only cocker pnuematics. it is awesome, not nearly as good as nicad's deadlywind trigger, but mine is cool 2. ill put pics up if u guys want to see it

la690
04-12-2004, 02:28 PM
sounds cool

SanDiegoMag
04-27-2004, 04:13 PM
Hey all, I was referred here becasue I wanted to make my own pneumatic assist trigger. After reading the posts here and on the hAir trigger, I have decided I cant wait 6-7 month to pay 250-350$ for one. My micro-mag is goin to be sold, but I will use the money for a new ULE mag or somethig. Hopefully I can crate a nice trigger mod, thx for the help, but I want a list of pneumatic parts plz :D