Would you Save the Industry if it Cost you a MILLION BUCKS?

[AGD]

AO,

I want to ask a simple question. If there was an 80% chance of you saving the industry, but it was guaranteed to cost you a million bucks, would you do it?

Of course this is only hypothetical and has nothing to do with the SP stuff at hand. Any references to SP will be deleted without notice.

So I put it to you, I expect intelligent answers.

Thanks for the help,

AGD

[Fatjon]

if i had more than a million bucks. :p

[Johnny_Reb]

If it was an 80% chance of saving the industry, Id have to take it, even if it did cost a million.

[spydervenom]

yeah, if i could afford it and still stay afloat i most likely would.

[TNS2k2]

If you would be able to keep prices the same on products, and be able to afford that million, then i would have to say yes.

[cockermongol]

No. Save yourself. They WANT you to pay them the million.

[TigerMan]

Yes I would. Hands down for me. I'd do it because if you put it down you save the industry, then your company can still be around. Yeah that money loss could possibly lead to the end of your business or whatever, but if you didn't put that money down to begin with you wouldn't have had a chance to begin with since the industry be gone. So for me, I'd rather at least put up a fight to stay and save the industry then just to quit in the beginning.

[RRfireblade]

If I had a million and.....

If saving the industry would return my investment 100% and..

If I was real sure about the 80%......

I would probably take the risk......

Risk of losing my money and my wife.....

One of which I would miss very much.....

Jay.

[Johnny_Reb]

No. Save yourself. They WANT you to pay them the million. Yeah, but would you rather lose a million bucks and be remembered as the man who saved the industry, or be remembered as the man to greedy to save it?

[Bulldog]

Depends on how much a million bucks was to me. Bill Gates' 1 million dollars = Bulldog's 5 dollars. So It's a relative question I guess.

[MarkM]

Originally posted by cockermongol
No. Save yourself. They WANT you to pay them the million.

Guess who didn't read the 1st post properly :rolleyes:

To answer IF someone was in the position to have a $1,000,000 then the rewards further along will repay that "investment". It is said that the 1st 1,000,000 is the hardest to earn the rest comes easy so again "if" anyone had that amount of disposable income then it's a sound commercial venture. There aren't going to be many if any on these forums who have that kind of money, especially with the average age of the posters, there are exceptions but...:(

[nt2004]

lets see it in a different light...
1 million dollars to save a sport played by 8 million people. Semms worth it

[tranman]

I think it really has to do with how much you love the industry, and how long you want to stay in the business of paintball. If it is your life, and you couldn't see yourself in any other business, i could see your justifying the money spent. Also if you aren't going to be in the business long enough to make the money back, there's no point.

[breg]

I would say yes because of the way I feel when I play. I would say yes because there is so much left for paintball to accomplish. I would say yes becasue there are more than a million people who play and they count on you and other compaines to provide them with the necessary equipment to play the game. I would say yes because in life there is more than money, I don't care how much.
There is a point where you have to ask yourself, is doing what I do worth the money? If it is then by all means think of the million dollars as money invested back into paintball. If not then... do what you must.

Breg

[spydervenom]

according to HBO...its the first 20million thats the hardest.

[cockermongol]

I would hold strong with the stance that you have a firm ground in other markets... and that although one door may be closed, it may open up an entirely different door.

[Gambit1106]

I look at it this way, if 1 million will only have an 80% chance of success I would look at how it would affect myself on both sides.

Say the money would save the industry but I am going to go thru hard times an possibly put myself into finacial problems. I would think against it.

If it would rebound the industry and in turn help me out and be able see a return and profit from the risk, I would do it.

Finally, that 20% chance of failure. I honestly would have say if it came to sink or swim I would make sure I can swim. I care for the industry but also need to worry about my well being too. The industry could fold and I would still be ahead, and possibly invest into other ventures.

[cockermongol]

One question: in this hypothetical situation does the owner happen to have a family?

[edweird]

Simple answer. Yes

From this laymans eyes the Paintball industry is worth WAY more than a minor mill. But then again that assumes that I would have a Mill to toss around. But if I did, knowing my eccentric bastard arse, I would be all over it.

[Star_Base_CGI]

No I would not "save" the paintball industry.

I think Ive said it before but I been out of work along long time. I worked part time to finish college. My point being...

I belive paintball and the world for that matter do not need saving. The world for the most part gets by on faith and good will. There are selfish people in the world like Microsoft but why should we buy Microsoft Products. People like Bill Gates do not need the money.

Seems like Paintball is having a bad year. Fact is the matter alot of people are out of work and having a bad year while other people are driving the most expensive cars there are.

I Played Paintball 10 years ago for the first time and it sucked. This year I got my first gun and thanks to you a warp feed. Paintball for me is better than ever. Now my gun shoots more than one ball, without breaking and without pumping. Walmart sells paint for $10 and up.

A monk told me we really need very little in life and its true. People ask me how I get by. People get by with faith. When you get up you eat, wash your cloths and clean your house. Day by day you get by.

At the very least for paintball, you need some ground, a mask, a gun, some friends and some paintballs. People will always play paintball. It doesnt need saving. Alls it needs is cheap paintballs and all day air.

Under better conditions you have bunkers, Gun upgrades and some insurance but you dont need all these things.

So thats the answer to If It cost me a million dollars, NO.

Now I would say to the answer, what if it would cost Tom Kaye 1 Million dollars. I would say first and foremost invest that in your buissiness and deversify. Tom Kaye is worth a Million DOllars more than the Paintball Industry. Dont spend the million dollars on One thing, Like one gun or one field.

If you had a CNC machine and good engineering skills. You can do alot more than make paintball guns. In a CNC shop you could make engines, motorcycles, or medical supplies. You could probably make lots and lots of things. If I was Tom Kaye and I only had a million Dollars to spend and I wanted to do something with it. I would invest it as well I could and than I would have more than One Million Dollars. It seems like Tom Kaye could use a bigger warehouse, some computers and some CNC machines.

If you want a buisiness seperate from AGD. Do that and create Manufacturing company to supply AGD and other companies. With America not being able to manufacture so little today it would seem good to own a manufacturing company.

The last thing I would do is try and spend 1 Million dollars on one thing to try and "save" paintball.

If Bill Adams had a Million Dollars, he would open a Internet cafe. Maybe a big one.

[chizle97]

It depends, if the cause is paying someone off to buy a company than yeah, if to apeese collective minds no way. Dont give in to the man. The government dosent need 1,000,000,000 from a lowley paintball mind just to stop them from making paintballs a gov. produced commodity.

[Kellen_p8nt]

an easy yes. well sorta.

I think were discussing the paintball industry.

If you DONT do it. Then through some act of god the industry bombs so does your company and theirfore you lose any chance of making a profit.

If you do it, then you have an 80% chance of saving the industry. This would allow you to make money.

The problem lies is can you afford option two. If you can afford option 2 and come out the other side maintaining prices at the same as before and continue to seel then go for it.

But what if someone else can do something that has a 90% chance of success. Then all your effort would be for nothing because he has the better option

[mistwolf]

Yes, I would. Partly because I feel that, were it to become known you spent that $1M with that sole purpose, you would quickly find the sport itself rallying to get you it back. But even if I didn't ever get it back, I would, because I love the sport and don't want it to die.

[Steelrat]

Well, this is difficult for several reasons. First of all, it is not worth a million dollars to me, because, for me, a million dollars represents about 10 years of work. Paintball is fun, but not that fun.

However, if I was president of a company that had such resources available, you better believe I would. I refuse to believe it is up to one company to shoulder the burden, however. There are at least 10 manufacturers of paintball markers. Thats what, $100,000 a piece? Still a lot, but not to insure the long-term viability of the industry.

Frankly, I'm just plain confused at the question. The only thing I could see costing a million dollars and having a %80 chance of success would be lengthy litigation. That, or purchasing the rights to manufacture a particular product, with a resulting %80 chance that people will pay the increased costs for their paintball equipment.

It is very hard to answer a question like that without understanding the underlying circumstances.

[ChucktheMAGician]

Like most of the others I would only do it if I had a few other Million laying around. :D I wouldn't give up my only Million and go back to work unless there was a guarantee I'd get it back pretty quick:p

[brett]

think of it this way.

If you did, you have a 80% chance of gaining that money back and eventually start taking in profit again. Which would make it worth while, just have to get through the hard parts first.

If you didnt the industry would fall and there would be no source of revenue, but you wouldnt be out a million dollars

It's all a thing of believing the thing your trying to save is worth saving with a risk involved.




it's all a game of money:(

[Steelrat]

Unless this is sort of a "wink wink, nudge nudge, we're NOT talking about a certain company, hehe" then we are operating in a total vacuum. How can we POSSIBLY answer a question like that with so little to go on.

[brett]

think of it this way.

If you did, you have a 80% chance of gaining that money back and eventually start taking in profit again. Which would make it worth while, just have to get through the hard parts first.

If you didnt the industry would fall and there would be no source of revenue, but you wouldnt be out a million dollars

It's all a thing of believing the thing your trying to save is worth saving with a risk involved.




it's all a game of money:(

[MagAl]

I think what I am about to say many others will agree with... If it can and/or will result in the ruination of one man and his company and loved ones then no... Nothing is worth the security of you and your loved ones... Now if I was a billionare... I will most definately give up the 1 million... if I was a man that wasn't rich... lets say a man owned a buisness... not filthy rich but well off then no... I would not risk the security of me and my family and loved ones.. even employees, for the industry. Nothing not even paintball :D is worth the ruination of a man...

[NASurfer]

I would do it, but it all depnends on the money situation. If it would bankrupt you, obviously no. But if it sets you back alot but you could recover from it no problem or in a few weeks, it may be worth it. (if paintball mags and forums all over are praising you about being a good guy, heck think of it as advertising)

[strongbadfan]

Who or what would I be throwing this million dollars at?

[yagrmiestr]

Can you write it off?? Let the government pay it. ;)

[BeerSkunk]

It's not possible to rationally answer that question without first establishing some frame of reference.

The vast majority of us reading/posting on these forums don't even have a million dollars on hand with which to honestly consider that question. By default we have to imagine ourselves in a position where we have the money available to spend and possibly save the paintball industry from rabid, paint-eating gerbils. Being that we have to try and make a rational decision using imaginary money, we first need to at least establish some common ground from which to approach the question. So I have a few questions:

Am I a business owner involved with the industry, or am I just myself, except now with a million bucks in the bank?

What percentage of my total wealth does a million dollars represent? 5%(practically nothing), 25%, 90%?

Do I stand to gain anything financially if I save the industry?

Does this million dollars come from my own hard work, or is it a gift from a wealthy leprachaun who thought I had cool hair?

These are just a few questions I have, other readers will certainly have questions of their own. Tom, perhaps you could provide us with a few assumptions you'd like us to make so that we can all answer the question from some common ground?

[Duke Henry]

To be honest, the question doesn't make any sense.

The question assumes that the person paying (who we are assuming is each individual) has a million dollars. Obviously, such an assumption (the first one), is spurreous.

However, I believe the second one has SOME merit. I believe it is more likely that we should be asking, should WE as paintball players spend 1 MILLION dollars to save the sport?

Well, to answer that question I would have to ask - what does the sport need saving from? If it was simply, do you want to keep playing paintball? Well, of course. Would I pay to keep playing - well, on top of what I normally pay? Possibly. I would love to say "without a doubt, this is my biggest hobby, etc." but the fact is that even with this being the case, all good things come to an end and so maybe I wouldn't if the circumstances dictated non-action.

So, in the end I would have to say I could go either way. I would need more information before I could make an intelligent, informed decision.

Of course I would love to keep playing paintball, but if this means that I would have to pay for something that I felt was morally or otherwise wrong, I would cut my losses and move on.

[strongbadfan]

What if 100,000 people each paid 10 dollars? Could they then give out the million(neglecting taxes, etc.)?

[hitech]

Well, of course it depends. First of all, what would the real cost be? How much would it probably cost me in lost future profits if the industry folded? Take the million dollars minus the projected lost future profits and you get the real cost.

Assuming we are talking about the paintball industry, if I could easily afford a million dollars then I would do it because I love the sport; regardless of the real cost. It wouldn't matter if I wouldn't lose a million in future profits. If I could not easy afford to spend a million dollars it would matter how much the real cost was. If I could easily afford the real cost then I would. Actually, since I love paintball I would even do it if it were hard to afford the real cost. I would not do so at the expense of my family, however.

I hope that was at least semi-coherent.

So, the bottom line is what would be the real cost and how painful would it be?

[Mook564]

AS far as I am conserned, Finances is a large part of this. First question is do you have the money. Next, can you afford to pay it with out going broke. The last thing I would want to do is rob Peter to pay Paul. Then you have to ask how will it affect my company or myself for that matter. Would it be wage cuts to my employees, wage frezes, price increases on products, can this money be recovered quickly, ect........... For me $10 is a lot of money right now. $10 makes a differance on if I eat Ramen noodels for a week or if I can cook a burger on my grill.

[aaron_mag]

NO

It is no single persons responsibility to save the industry. We all play it. We all enjoy it. If there was a money solution to save the industry we should all participate in the solution. I buy AGD products because they are good. Not because Tom Kaye saved the paintball industry.

Whatever this hypothetical solution is it is not a wise move unless it is collectively taken.

[dave_p]

if i was in the position i would put up a mil to save the game.i love the game.
but not to save the industry. the industry kind of leaves something to be desired(no reflection on airgun designs, you have always come through for your customers so selflessly it is incredible and unheard of in todays world, i am a satisfied customer in every way). flame away if you must, i wont elaborate any furthur.

[Recon by Fire]

One million dollars to save paintball?

If the $1M would put risk to your personal well being and that of your family, NO. As an investment that would likely return that $1M and more, YES. As a payment that would not net a return of $1M, NO.

[CoFFeY[NiTrO]]

If I was able to spend 1 million bucks as a company, and still be able to keep a healthy business. Yes.

[Doc Nickel]

I'm in with the rest here TK. You haven't given us enough even hypothetical data.

I mean, for the majority- no, let's be truthful- for every poster so far, a cool million is impossible. I suspect it would be very difficult even for you and AGD's resources.

And "save" the industry? Save it from what? Or whom?

If it's a question of the infamous and shall-not-be-mentioned Suit, even a worst-case scenario (a win for SP, and the implementation of usurious, crushing royalties) will not spell the "end" of the sport.

There's still hundreds of thousands of electros out there, and the all-mechanical 'Cockers and RTs are still surprisingly popular even in the face of $175 E-guns.

Heck, there's big numbers of us that don't mind using seven-year-old Carbines or 12-gram pumps.

Sure, maybe the big-money, flashy airball DVDs won't be quite as interesting with a bunch of Phantoms, but the sport won't "die".

That's not to say the suit shouldn't be fought- it's too broad and will stifle development and sales. Similar hypothetical conditions should be fought similarly.

Short answer, and assuming a hypothetical situation similar to the SP suit, and assuming I, as a corporation head or lucky Powerball winner, had the million available without starving to death, yes, I'd spend that million.

Now, if your hypothetical means something more sinister- being shut down by the government, for example (though I can't see how, even if Hillary is elected) or having major restrictions imposed by an oversight organization (OSHA restricting velocities to 125 fps, maybe, or the CGA disallowing any tank over 800 psi, etc) then yes again, if it means fighting or losing the industry altogether, I'd spend the cash even if it could mean the crippling of my company.

You know none of us have that kind of coin, so I'm assuming you're asking something more along the lines of "Do you think [AGD] should spend possibly up to a million dollars on research, legal fees, court costs and attorney's fees, in order to maybe have an 80% chance of saving the Paintball Industry from major hardship or crushing legal restrictions, at the risk of crippling or possibly bankrupting [AGD] in the process?"

That's a question only you can answer. Me, I'd say "hell yes", if I had the cash.

Further, why would it be one company's responsibility? Do you mean you, personally, spending a mil, or A company spending a mil? Is there some reason several companies can't band together? Is there a reason a fundraiser- similar to Shatnerball, for example- couldn't be run? Is there a reason that donations from anyone and everyone can't be taken?

By "saving" the sport, we can assume that all or nearly all players would want to donate a couple of bucks here and there to keep the sport going. Would that be a bad thing? Or, in the hypotetical nameless Suit, would it mean company A with a popular history and loyal following trying to gather donations in order to fight Company B with a popular history and loyal following, leading to a further fragmenting of the industry?

Doc.

[rx2]

Are we taking this question too literally? Might there by an underlying question as to the worth of the industry?

I don't want to put words in Tom's mouth, but after analyzing the question, and the way in which it was asked, it seems like there might be some underlying question as to the worth of the current paintball industry; is the current state of the industry worth saving if the cost were so, not just "would you spend one-million dollars to keep it."

If this question in any way can be interpreted as such, then I am unsure. There are many people who enjoy the current style, and feel of the game. There are also many companies and employees that would stand to lose if the current industry was forced to shift, or collapse. To these people, the industry should be preserved, despite the cost. Paintball changes, but it is possible that too much change, too quickly, could seriously injure the sport.

What if the conditions were not met, and the industry that we know today ceased to exist in its current state, and this change occurred quickly?

Paintball has evolved greatly, and it is not inconceivable that it would continue to do so. If the paintball industry were forced to shift directions, it may not be a bad thing. Certainly, it would be more abrupt than the natural progression, and many would not be ready to embrace it. However, it might not be a "bad" thing. The current giants of the industry might fall, but there would be room for new, innovative companies, eager to take their place. One might even argue that this sort of thing is what might be needed to really fuel progress in what has been a slightly stagnant industry, focusing too much on cloning current electronic systems.

Perhaps I am being over-analyitcal. Even so, it seems to be at least a valid sub-argument, or ramification of the original question. Whatever the case may be, I don't think that one can put a value on the current state of the industry. It could be a very dangerous thing just to let go. On the other hand, many probably would not mind a change.

Now, if this is concretely a matter of paintball/no paintball, I would say one-million is worth it in order to preserve a sport that not only employs many, but also provides so much more for thousands upon thousands of people (or more).

If, however, it is just a matter of keeping the industry the same, or dealing with some major, but non-threatening changes, I could not say for certain. Although, I do think that it would be weak not to oppose such a force, especially considering that it could lead to and set precedent for other, possibly more damaging cases in the future. I must say, though that I probably would not be so concerned if the paintball industry changed, but still remained an industry.

If, and ONLY if it were the case that the paintball industry could still exist, but in another state, I would say that I would be willing to help, but my personal commitment would not be as great. If I had only backyard rec to play the rest of my life, it wouldn't be the end of the world for me.

As stated before, though, if it meant the possibility that the idustry would collapse, or dissolve into one or two monopolies, then it would be worth all the resources that supporters could realistically lend.

Lots of "ifs"...

[cockermongol]

I'd say save the million for a rainy day ( :cough: lawsuit :cough: )

[CameraGuy]

Hypothetical questions to answer a hypothetical question - only fair ;) (keeping in mind that I believe the paintball industry as a whole may be drastically changed, for better or worse, but certainly not eliminated by any 'hypothetical' situations short of an outright ban of the sport):

Is it worth trying to save an industry that doesn't at least try to band together as a group to save itself?

Or, as your question is worded at the moment, wouldn't I be better off to spend at least a small portion of "my" million to try and raise capital by convincing other (and possibly larger/wealthier) members of the industry who have even more to lose to join me in trying to save them?

And just to play Devil's advocate, what would I stand to gain (if anything) if the industry as we know it were to disappear?

[Catch22]

With $1 million dollars I could create my own paintball industry and forget everyone else. I'd name my company Kingman International. Of course I'd have to invest some money so I could have more than $1 mil because that's not alot.

[DiRTyBuNNy]

I'd do it...and take Keely as my wife and make her wear the Princess Leia slave costume from Return of the Jedi..

[adam shannon]

only if you stand to make it back plus more. being a martyr is irrelevant given most people wouldnt even thank you when your pushing a shopping cart full of pop cans and living under a bridge. if it cost you your business youd be a footnote on a mesage board 10 years from now when some guy posts about some marker he found in his basement that said x-mag and had the serial number "tom kaye". some guy would post "yeah i remember that guy sorta...man he used to be big, what happened to him?"

jesus was a martyr, and if his memory hadnt turned into a buisness nobody would know who he was today.

[BarryTolar]

Save the "Sport" or save the "Industry" ?

Now I do think the "Sport" needs something from the "Industry". Namely paintballs. But that's about it.

I'm going to assume(and we all know what that does)that just about everyone on this board has a paintball marker and the basic trappings to play the "Sport". So if tomorrow we couldn't buy a X-mag does this limit our ability to play the "Sport" ?

In a larger scale if tomorrow every gun manufacter was shut down would this kill the "Sport" ? In some ways, yes BUT not to me - or the group I play with. As long as I can get paintballs and someone that will let me shoot at them the "Sport" isn't dead - at least to ME.

Is this selfish - sure but what do I care this is all only hypothetical right ?

So would I spend a million bucks on a 80% shot that the "Industry" could be saved. No. But then again I'm not running a company that makes paintball equipment and relies on the "Industry" to make a living.

Barry

[yeahthatsme]

yes if i had the money i would.

[bryceeden]

If I had the money I would. Paintball is my life and without it I would be stuck at home doing nothing(I run a paintball store) If I had an 80%chance of saving it I would do it, but if that million dollars and 80% chance was to keep it the same as it is now not nessasarily to save it than probably not unless I had a larger stake in the industry than I do now.

[Wooosh87]

Such a simple question raises so many more. I admit that I share the same thoughts as Doc on this one. Tom, your question is far to broad to be answered with a simple yes or no. If you are asking us if you should be a martyr for the entire sport of paintball and risk your company and future, than my answer is no. A single person should not be responsible for all. If you are asking if your personal interests are worth risking, that my friend is entirely up to you. I personally would fight for my rights as a business owner and do whatever was necessary to preserve my way of live. It is a gamble of large proportions, but one that is worth taking. I have been in similar situations as a business owner. It is not an easy task. But to not risk anything at all is to admit defeat before the battle is even fought. If this is a decision to stand and fight for your ideals and livelihood, then it is a good and just fight.
From your numbers, you look like you have a better than fair chance, but then again the opportunity to fail is always present. This is no light subject, (if it is the one that I think it is), and I am sure that you will make a decision that is in your best interests.

[Konigballer]

I agree with a bunch of the other guys on this one. From what little can be percieved from this very open question, I'd say, as mean as it sounds, why should you get nailed to the cross for the entire paintball industry. Its buisness, u think the competition would do the same? Frankly, from all the uproar over the X-mag production shortage and the state of the mag on the paintball scene in general, I doubt AGD has a million just layin' around to throw to the wolves. If u do, i'd suggest spendin' it on cleanin up your production line and getting the company out in the magazine advertisements that the noobs love and into the hands of players on the field. Some clarification of the question would be greatly apreciated. A million or not, what can u actually do to save the industry, and what needs to be saved?

[shartley]

This is an interesting questions and folks have already covered many of my very same thoughts.

And another question is, what is the motivating factor for “saving” the sport/industry? Is it from a player’s standpoint, or from that of a manufacturer. Because to be totally honest, there is a difference. And for anyone to think otherwise they are only fooling themselves.

I also think that the “sport/industry” really doesn’t need “saving” as it is. And others have already pointed that out.

BUT… from a player’s standpoint, if I had a million dollars, and had to decide if I would spend that on saving a “recreational activity”, or something else…. Come on, for the player, it is a GAME. And no one activity that I do for fun is worth that much money. ;) And for those players that the GAME of paintball is more than a GAME, and their entire lives rotate around it and they have nothing BUT the GAME….. get a life, those can be fun too. ;)

And from the manufacturer’s side… sure. If the money I make off of that sport supports my way of life and lifestyle, you bet that I would drop the cool mil (assuming I had it to spend) to keep my income stream flowing.

You see, this question is not as “selfless” as it may seem, and neither are manufacturers.

[Lohman446]

I have no idea what the profit margins in paintball are... I am considering the fact that the Suburban that we all hunted you in was not brand new, and was not that Mercedes G class thing I am expecting that million dollars is a lot of money. (A million dollars is a lot of money to anyone).

If it is a single 1 million industry wide to make current threatening problems go away then yes - sort of. Here is my point on things anyways - there are a number of companies that have from informal practices in the past built the paintball industry into what it is now. AGD for one, WGP for another - take your pick on who you think has the ethics and business practices to be included - ICD, WDP, PMI, Kingman, Brass Eagle (don't harp on the biggest supplier of paintball products that get most people started in the sport), RPS (and other paintball manufacturers) etc. I beleive that there are many companies that fit in here that I have not named and at least one that should not be included. Given current industry practices it is time for these companies to form a more broad group with some agreements on patents, base design sharing, and COMMON LEGAL DEFENSE. If it is one million dollars industry wide to save paintball then yes - these companies need to spend it, and I must beleive that between them it would not be that major of an issue.

The base question - Tom if you have to spend a million dollars to save paintball... as bad as I'm going to get nailed on this one... its not your problem to save paintball. You have invested much of your life, much of your time, and much of your money (think of the profits if you had not shared HPA) into bringing paintball to what it is today. Tom, we respect you greatly for what you have done for all of us, but you alone do not hold the responsibility of saving paintball (see above).
Besides Tom, you have always been smarter than the industry, thinking ahead of it. I am sure, whatever threat the industry faces now, you will think of a way around it (ULT trigger?), to make paintball greater and greater - though I beleive, again, that the industry as a whole, needs to make this problem go away.

[xatle]

i can't think of a situation that could pose a serious threat to paintball...but will go away for a million bucks.
from my point of view the only thing that would prevent me from being able to play paintball is a lack of paint. so if America is in danger of running out of paint and an infusion of a million dollars would solve this problem then i would spend that million.

[Lee]

in a market as large as pb, 1 mil is a drop in the bucket.

does the pb industry need saving? i don't think so. it has a life of it's own now, from the biggest company right down to the mom and pop fieds. something like that just does not collapse without a million dollar injection.

if 1 mil, for whatever reason would save it, and i had it, yes, i'd do it.

personally, i'm waiting for the press release as it seems to me we have rumor to go on right now and not much from the company that is said to have started the issue mentioned in so many threads.

[1stdeadeye]

No I wouldn't ask you to do that. Yes, the industry is very important, however you can not expect AGD to put itself in jeopardy for the rest of the industry. If you could get a consortium of people from the industry to throw $100k each into the pot, well then that is okay. Tom you can't risk what you have for the industry. That would be very selfless of you, but how much would that hurt AGD. You would have to raise prices, your R&D would most likely be knocked to nothing, and you inventory would have to be depleted.

I say take care of AGD first and worry about the industry second!

[WarBUCKs]

To be honest, I would not even try to save the paintball industry myself. I believe that everyone involved in the sport should save the industry in their own way.

Well, I really don't know who or what I would be saving it from, but maybe The People, The companies or The Government

The People: IMHO, I believe that the quality of people has been on the decline during the last 5 years of the sport. There is too much attitude, resentment, cheating and social agendas that occur on todays fields. Everyone is to caught up in themselves and only care whether they win or lose and not about the good time.

Would I spend 1 million dollars to save it from the people who have formed it into what it has become? Hell no. Why? First, I can't change anyones mind on "how cool" they are and how they act. Second, saving people like this isn't a worthy enough cause. The people make it how they want it.

The people of paintball are responsible for what goes on and innovations in the industry. They push companies further to acheive better guns and products. Right now, it seems as if speed is the only thing that is driving the paintball industry into the future. Maybe that could be a downfall or that is what is selling guns at the moment.


The Companies: SP is probably going to enforce their patents against all the other companies in the paintball industry (from what I read, but I haven't read thoroughly cuz I lack interest in that). What stops all other companies from beginning to enforce their recent patents that they haven't enforced? I really don't see the good of this for the future of the sport and revenue for a company. People are greedy and so are corporations, what can you do about it?

Now, If a non-profit organization (NPO) was setup to help battle the companies that are hurting the industry, I would be all for that. This way if someone were to use a million dollars to prevent damage to a hurting industry it would be used as a write off for the company (Ex. AGD). Doing it this way could even gather donations from around the world to help fight the problems which might lead to more money to save the industry, but then you deal with "The People."

I still wouldn't support the spending of 1 companies money, but a group of companies or a paintball committee that could be used to fight upcoming problems with organizations in the future might be a good idea. (See NPO above)


The Government: This is a good one and I think Doc Nickel had a good example of OSHA dropping velocties to a max of 125fps. I don't think this would happen anytime soon unless there was a upsurge of high velocity related deaths in less than a year.

Now, fighting the government may be a bit harder and wouldn't even be worth spending the money. If OSHA wanted to drop the velocities, they are going to do it and it might take Tens of Millions of dollars to convince them otherwise. I wouldn't even try this one.

I don't think Tom is talking about the government increasing more restrictive controls on paintball players in the future, but I may be wrong. I do believe that a fight against the government wouldn't get you very far. Especially the Feds; Easier with State.

To me an 80% chance is still a high risk investment. It is like taking a 20 question test and automatically losing 20% (4 questions), just for the hell of it. During the test there are 5 questions that you know the answer to, but the teacher decides he doesn't like your answer so you miss all 5 of them. Now you have a 55% on the test that you thought you could get an 80% on.

Is that logical? I am not sure, cuz my logic is bizarre.

Who knows what we are saving here and what the possibilites are. If 80% is the best bang for the buck you can get, pass it up, it isn't worth it. If it was an 80% minimum chance, and you think you had a possible 100% chance, then do it.

Well, I speculated on what we are saving for a million dollars and gave my oppinon on 3 different subjects.

I hope my opinion helps Tom!!!
:confused:

Rob

[Fred]

Save the Sport for 1 Mil? Yes, here's a check for you to go towards the pot.

Save the Industry for 1 Mil? No. It doesn't deserve saving.


If the current dillema facing the Industry does in fact become the grim reality that many of us fear, there will still be other options.

Oops, can't get an electro now even though I'm lookin at getting a semi auto... Oh, wait, there are plenty of very nice purely mechanical options that I probably would have preferred anyway.

There are many great companies in the industry now, and if the worst happens, they may or may not survive, but most of them have alternatives to pursue (I'd love to see the Desert Fox back on the market... or more Mags, Cockers, and even better, more pumps!).

Think of it as a purge of sorts... maybe right now its looking grim, but... in the BIG picture... it might not be as big of a catastrophe as we think...

I've been pretty disgusted with a lot of the industry the last couple years, there's too much crap in it, its become tainted and lost sight of the common good in exchange for more money or image...


to recap: Save the sport, let the Industry to its own devices.

---Fred

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by WarBUCKs
To be honest, I would not even try to save the paintball industry myself. I believe that everyone involved in the sport should save the industry in their own way.

Well, I really don't know who or what I would be saving it from, but maybe The People, The companies or The Government

The People: IMHO, I believe that the quality of people has been on the decline during the last 5 years of the sport. There is too much attitude, resentment, cheating and social agendas that occur on todays fields. Everyone is to caught up in themselves and only care whether they win or lose and not about the good time.

Would I spend 1 million dollars to save it from the people who have formed it into what it has become? Hell no. Why? First, I can't change anyones mind on "how cool" they are and how they act. Second, saving people like this isn't a worthy enough cause. The people make it how they want it.

The people of paintball are responsible for what goes on and innovations in the industry. They push companies further to acheive better guns and products. Right now, it seems as if speed is the only thing that is driving the paintball industry into the future. Maybe that could be a downfall.


The Companies: SP is probably going to enforce their patents against all the other companies in the paintball industry (from what I read, but I haven't read thoroughly cuz I lack interest in that). What stops all other companies from beginning to enforce their recent patents that they haven't enforced? I really don't see the good of this for the future of the sport and revenue for a company. People are greedy and so are corporations, what can you do about it?

Now, If a non-profit organization (NPO) was setup to help battle the companies that are hurting the industry, I would be all for that. This way if someone were to use a million dollars to prevent damage to a hurting industry it would be used as a write off for the company (Ex. AGD). Doing it this way could even gather donations from around the world to help fight the problems which might lead to more money to save the industry, but then you deal with "The People."

I still wouldn't support the spending of 1 companies money, but a group of companies or a paintball committee that could be used to fight upcoming problems with organizations in the future might be a good idea. (See NPO above)


The Government: This is a good one and I think Doc Nickel had a good example of OSHA dropping velocties to a max of 125fps. I don't think this would happen anytime soon unless there was a upsurge of high velocity related deaths in less than a year.

Now, fighting the government may be a bit harder and wouldn't even be worth spending the money. If OSHA wanted to drop the velocities, they are going to do it and it might take Tens of Millions of dollars to convince them otherwise. I wouldn't even try this one.

I don't think Tom is talking about the government increasing more restrictive controls on paintball players in the future, but I may be wrong. I do believe that a fight against the government wouldn't get you very far. Especially the Feds.

To me an 80% chance is still a high risk investment. It is like taking a test and automatically losing 20%, just for the hell of it. During the test there are 5 questions that you don't know the answer to cuz it wasn't in the book and when you get the test back, you have a 65% on it. Is that logical. You knows what we are saving here and what the possibilites are. If it were an arugument against something Tom was extremely well knowledged at or developed himself I would certainly give him an 80% chance though. I did notice he said "If" to start that 80% sentence.

Well, I speculated on what we are saving for a million dollars and gave my oppinon on 3 different subjects.

I hope my opinion helps Tom!!!
:confused:

Rob

Lots of Good points here.

1. The people! Bunker them! Put them in their place.

2. The companies. Bunker them too.

3. The government. ive seen more injustice by the government in the last 5 years than Ive seen in my first 28 years. The like to oppress people with Taxs and regualtions. So I would put it past them to do this.

Id say get a lawyer and sue the government. You can sue the government. Get a class action lawsuit and say there trying to destory Paintball. Use stattistics to shows it safe and than send them to Bowling which is less safe to Sue for damages.

Than show how the army and the police use paintball. Point to the contituion and proclaim they are arms.

But with emisions testing and all the regulations, redlight cameras and taxs we have to pay nowadays, it wouldnt surprise me at all.

[Recon by Fire]

Damn, somebody watch StarbasCGI. You're starting to sound like a member of the conspiracy militia :) j/k

Yes, you can sue the government, if they allow you too!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by shartley
Come on, for the player, it is a GAME. And no one activity that I do for fun is worth that much money. ;)

I wasn't going to bring this up but Shartley opened this can of worms. If it is truly a million for altruistic reasons Shartely is right on. I mean it is a game. People die of starvation yet many people clamor for a million dollars to "save the paintball industry"?

If it is a good BUSINESS decision that is one thing. If it is a donation "for world good" then a most definite NO.

[lack of grace]

In a heartbeat....Paintball personally means alot to me. And in my world, If something means alot to you, and that thing is threatened, you do what it takes, no questions asked.

You can't put a price on passion and love.

[Jeffy-CanCon]

Tom,

Never gamble with money you can't afford to lose.

A person's first responsibilities are to themselves and their family and then their employees and clients. If I need the $1M bet to succeed in order to save my company (i.e., no bet = lose, lose bet = lose), and I can do it without risking poverty for my children, I would do it.


For the rest of you:

The industry and the sport are one and the same. We're not playing dodgeball, folks. We need a steady stream of paintballs, masks and spare parts (at the very least) in order to keep playing this sport. Sure, if the industry died you can play in the woods, and you can get spare parts for your guns machined locally. Where do the lenses come from? And the paintballs?

There are a lot of things I don't admire in the industry, either, but to save the industry is to save the sport.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by AGD
AO,

I want to ask a simple question. If there was an 80% chance of you saving the industry, but it was guaranteed to cost you a million bucks, would you do it?
AGD

If it was a legitimate chance, and involved no breaking of laws or unethical behavior, I would call my broker and get him out of bed to scrape together the cash (which could be done, albiet painfully).

I've only been into paintball now for a little less then a year, but I completely dig it. I've always grown up with guns and the desire to join the armed forces and wage war, but when I was 13 I had an "incident" that caused a lingering heart condition that made it impossible for me to serve, so paintball for me is kind of the hobbization of what I wanted to do for a living but can't. And I would do whatever I could to keep it around.

[Kaiser Bob]

Since im a degenerate gambler, id let lady luck decide. I would take that mil, go to a high limit oasis at a casino and start gambling it; if i went down to half i would walk away 500,000 dollars poorer for trying, but 500,000 richer then if i had tryed to save the industry and still failed. If i doubled my money id walk with that extra mil and it would be out there the next day trying to do whatever it is supposed to be doing to save paintball, and i didnt lose a cent.

Anyways, to throw in something useful to my post, 1 million dollars dosent seem to ridiculous to gamble when trying to save a multi billion dollar a year industry and the returns alone seem to be worth it.

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by Jeffy-CanCon

The industry and the sport are one and the same. We're not playing dodgeball, folks. We need a steady stream of paintballs, masks and spare parts (at the very least) in order to keep playing this sport. Sure, if the industry died you can play in the woods, and you can get spare parts for your guns machined locally. Where do the lenses come from? And the paintballs?

There are a lot of things I don't admire in the industry, either, but to save the industry is to save the sport.
I don't agree with this. The Industry and the Sport of Paintball are different. Even if the Industry falls, the Sport will remain. Supply and demand. All of a sudden there would be opened doors for hundreds of companies to fill because the old ones had been sued into bankruptcy.

Think of it like this:
Two competeing manufacturers are tied up in a law suit for designs of football helmets. The manufacturer that wins the law suit takes the money and runs. So, no more football? NOPE. You better believe another company will fill the "helmet-producing" spot. Because, like paintball, football will never die even if the Industry takes a fall.

[beam]

NO!

Paying the money only means that you aren't creative enought to find another way. And just because we haven't thought of the "other" way, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Also, is the industry going to go under without electros? Did it go under without full-auto? I think a decline in electros would be kinda fun.

[Benfica4ever]

I would do it if i had 2 million bux:D

[Albinonewt]

Tom:

The more I think about your question (and it's been basically the only thing on my mind for close to half a day now) not only do you I think you should do it, I honestly believe your sort of obligated to do it.

There are really a handful of guys that have made this industry and sport what it is today, and you're one of those guys. I think that it would be insulting to hobby you love and the industry you helped to create to turn your back because of a monetary consideration. I tend not to delve too deeply into themes that use words like honor and code, but in this case I really think that there is a moral imperative. As one of the creators of the industry I think you're sort of obligated to see it through to the end, one way or the other.

Just my two cents, but I know that when I have a hand in creating something I feel responsible for it even when it's no longer the exact creature I created.

[strongbadfan]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Tom:

The more I think about your question (and it's been basically the only thing on my mind for close to half a day now) not only do you I think you should do it, I honestly believe your sort of obligated to do it.

There are really a handful of guys that have made this industry and sport what it is today, and you're one of those guys. I think that it would be insulting to hobby you love and the industry you helped to create to turn your back because of a monetary consideration. I tend not to delve too deeply into themes that use words like honor and code, but in this case I really think that there is a moral imperative. As one of the creators of the industry I think you're sort of obligated to see it through to the end, one way or the other.

Just my two cents, but I know that when I have a hand in
creating something I feel responsible for it even when it's no longer the exact creature I created.

I dont think Tom is obligated to give one million. If I started a successful company, and then retired, I wouldn't feel at all obligated to give my retirement fund if the company ebgan to decline. How is he obligated to give up his hard earned money?

[CrazyLad]

well it all depends on how much money you have...Chances are really good though so if you had the money i do it.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by strongbadfan


I dont think Tom is obligated to give one million. If I started a successful company, and then retired, I wouldn't feel at all obligated to give my retirement fund if the company ebgan to decline. How is he obligated to give up his hard earned money?

Which is where you and I differ. It's a question of honor and a sense of duty. Either you feel the obligation or you don't. It really can't be explained or taught.

Although there's nothing wrong with the standard take the money and run approach (really there isn't and I don't mean to imply that there is) just for some people it's not enough. For me, it would mean more to me that my creation was in jeopardy of collapse then it keeping my cash in the bank. Especially since it is extremely likely that my creation is what put that money in the bank in the first place. When you add to the fact all the people and businesses that the creation has effected I would feel a very strong sense of duty to correct whatever has gone wrong. More of an obligation then anything else.

If you don't get it that's ok. It just means we differ in this regard.

[MaChu]

To all of you who say how the industry has lost sight of "for the good of the industry",

Has it ever had a mentality of for the good of the sport and player? The industry I think ever since the beginning has been thinking nothing but money. Its business in our time and age. Corporate greed. Now there are a few companies that do think for the good of the sport, AGD is one of those honorable few, I think WGP is another, some of the old school companies like PMI, the first few with semi's.

To save the industry, I say no. It doesn't deserve it. Now if AGD, WGP, etc, the companies that actually care about the sport as a whole, I would save them in a heartbeat.

IF the sport was in jeopardy, go ahead spend that million, Ill throw in my money and I bet a bunch of other people would too because paintball really important to a lot of people. It gives them a sense of belonging working with a team, gives them a sense of worth having a "cool" gun, gives them a sense of happiness winning the game. If the sport was in jeopardy, I couldn't see it stop.

I think the SP lawsuit should go through personally. It seems bad, but look at what it has been doing now. People all over the net are uniting against one thing, one paintball social injustice, which Ive never seen before. SP wins the case, the sport will take morally in a turn for the good, people will stop thinking of themselves and more about the good of fellow paintballers. Sure we will lose electronic guns, the material aspect, but like people have posted before, a semi revolution will begin. Mags, Cockers, various high quality blowbacks will reign supreme, heck we might even see more inovative designs. Right now it seems grim, but in the big picture paintball always looks like it has one way to go and that is to the glory of being a world wide accepted sport.

[Matt_mg]

paintball is great but if you are going to bleed to death over it, it's not worth it...

[magmania]

I would because there is a good chance you will recover all of that money anyways.

[1stdeadeye]

Maybe this is just the New Jerseyian in me speaking, but when we start talking about dollar amounts like $1mm, it's time to get creative. These guys are from Pennsylvania, right next door. This problem could be made to go away for a whole lot less!:confused:

Kind of like the Italian 50 cent divorce!:confused:
:eek:




:p

As for the rest of you:
http://www.unclephilly.com/july03/Arnoldsw.jpg

Remember, Tom has a business to run, not a charity!

[SIGSays]

so what kind of deal is this? is this like a deal your making with god? and you pay him 1 mil and he makes it all better or is this a you start some new franchises and stuff that will cost you a mil....??

if it's the business damn right.. cuz you would get your money back

but if it was a deal with the devil or something no...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Tom, the 80% thing is what puzzles me as well as what is exactly involved in saving the industry. If we are talking about a settlement in a certain case that is remaining unmentioned and would be the financial amount required in total from a collection of all manufacturers to reach that goal to pay a settlement, I would say yes as long as it is then a closed deal with them and things are back to how they were before it. It would financially hurt but to stay in the market it would be neccesary. Going entirely to mechanical means only those producing E-markers will get the tournament business. I don't care what people say, if only one company is producing E-markers, everyone who plays seriously and in tourneys will buy them even if they hate that company. Sad but true, most tourney players do whatever it takes to win anyways (wiping and playing on), even if it damages their character and goes against their beliefs. However, if it is you personally paying 1 million, then no. Accept it and do what you can with what's left of the market or accept it's time to pack up. Sad to think that could happen. And the fact it is not a definite saving of the market if the $1 million is given up would definitely indicate it would not be the wise move.

Hope this helps, and best of luck if this is something really related to a real-life situation. It'll be a sad day if the industry falls behind at such a key time in the growth of paintball over something as lame as this.

[aaron_mag]

I'll put another 2 cents in (there all you have to do is collect 2 cents from every post at AO and you have your million).

Everyone is talking about how the industry is motivated by money and making it sound bad. That is a good thing. This industry is incredibly competitive and that has been nothing but good for the players. Would AGD really have worked their butts off for Level 10 and ULE if the rest of the industry hadn't forced it on them. Great products come from good competition. All of the patents that were passed up by Tom and everyone else created this competitive market place. The industry has been good to us paintballers. You don't like the way things have gone with speedball and the like. You can still play woods with cheaper paint than ever. Personally I think you would be hard pressed to find an industry that has been as innovative with as much cut throat competition as the paintball industry. So quit whining that the industry is screwing us the poor players.

Now as far as that million goes my answer is still NO! If you have that kind of funds in reserves you are going to need them to stay competitive in the paintball market. This industry is not going to get any less competitive in the near future unless Smart Parts screws it all up.

[Jerhew]

my $1.00 contribution could be in the mail monday.

[50 cal]

Sorry, but no I wouldn't. Way too many self important people in the industry that would cry foul about what you did.

[Nobody077]

If I were part of the "Industry" I would first look at how much I would lose if the industry was lost. If the loss valued near the 1 million mark then the choice would be simple, Spend the Mill trying to save the industry.
If my losses would be 500,000 or less than the choice would be much harder, this would make me look more twords the future, How long would this "Fix" help? Would the "industry" be faceing the same problem in 1.2.3 years ? If it would only be a short fix then I would probaly cut my losses, and say NO. But if the fix would last long enough for me to recover the Million and posably some profit then Shure it would be a good investment

[wobbles82]

I would do it, but a bit differently. Maybe somebody already posted this..but I didnt read everyones post, too many, too many good opinions, too many weird opinions, and too many opinions I just downright dont get. Heh. :D Anyway, this sport has given me so much, its not even funny. I have invested thousands of dollars into something I love, and a million to save something I love is junk change. Heck I could even save the sport, and then say hey...guys. I just saved this sport, mind dropping 50 cents into this coin jar? More than say 8 million or so people dropping 50 cents into a coin jar. Saving the sport+ making profit (which will be put towards the sport)= something that could work. Even if...say 2 million people shorted me and said no I dont know you I could care less...heck even if say 5 million did so I would still get the money back. Point is I am more than willing to take a chance of spending the money and hoping on the good faith of many paintballers I know. That is....if I had a million bucks. *licks finger* Point 1 for the Wobbles, Point 0 for Gates. :p

[TheTramp]

I think the main questions (and others have already asked them here) are: What does "saving the industry" mean and why does one "person" have to pay for it?

We're not talking about saving lives here. Sure I like to play paintball but I wouldn't give up my job over it. Like a lot of people on AO but not the rest of the paintball industry I don't work part-time at the local sub-galley for pocket money. If $1 mill. ruined my company why on earth would I do it?

Any moral obligation talked about here is purely made-up. Who is Tom (or whoever is giving the mill) obligated to? The consumer? The fickle kid who's going to abandon a company as soon as the next new flashy supra gun comes out? The few (and yes we aren't as big as we'd like to think) people who make up AGD's loyal market base?

I don't have an answer. These are just some things to think about.

[Q01]

i say save the industry because well poeple have jobs and if just one industry fails with our current economy then thais is not pleasant

[rkjunior303]

i would defintely have to weigh two instances.. What would happen *IF* I paid the money compared to what would happen if I *DIDN'T* pay the money. Whichever makes more sense, in the greater picture, then I would go do that.

[ben_JD]

Did the person who needs to answer this question begin their business as some philanthropic endeavor? If so, then drop the million and feel good.

If, however, they started their business to make money (which is philanthropic in its own sense, said the capitalist), then they should only drop the million if there is a substantial chance that the money will be made back with a good Return on Investment ratio.

The simple answer is no. Because the "industry" will not care whether this person saved them or not and there is no likelihood of getting a decent ROI.

[Mutilus]

This question is way too general, I would have to look at it from an economic stance. What percentage of the million dollars is the total revenue of said indvidual, would said million dollars be able to be recouped through the saving of an industry, or is it better to invest the million in another industry and propel the entity to a different stature? No matter the investment it is always a gamble when you do invest so look at it from a gambling standpoint, unless it is a sure thing do not put all of your ships on the table, 80% chance is not a sure thing therefore maybe investing the million is not worth it. If the million is not everthing that one has, then why not gamble on an industry saving 80% and possibly enjoy the return on that investment. Of course this is just my opinion and I could be wrong.

[vlhockey22]

I don't think an investment like that is worth it. I just can't see the entire paintball industry going down. The players will always keep the sport alive.

[Hemorrhage]

To quote AGD:

"I want to ask a simple question..."
and
"...I expect intelligent answers."

Well an intelligent answer to this from of question. I see only two options. Yes. And No. That's it guys.. Tom you should have just done a poll. Why are people so stupid? You can't look that deep into something so simple. It's like diving into a 1ft pond. Yes or No...

[845]

I agree with one of the posts above that says it should not be one company who does this but a group of companies and people. So no I do not think one company especially a small company should fork over 1 mil to save a billion dollar industry. When there is obviously so many other people who have the money also.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Hemorrhage
To quote AGD:

"I want to ask a simple question..."
and
"...I expect intelligent answers."

Well an intelligent answer to this from of question. I see only two options. Yes. And No. That's it guys.. Tom you should have just done a poll. Why are people so stupid? You can't look that deep into something so simple. It's like diving into a 1ft pond. Yes or No...

As if a question of the appropriation of a million dollars is as simple as whether or not you want fries with your hamburger. It is of course a very deep question. To gauge the impact of a million dollar donation/investment people spend thousands of dollars on studies and legal advice....

[nuclear zombie]

yes .

[Star_Base_CGI]

What if Tom already spent the million dollars.

If you added up all the money everyone spent to keep us playing with junk its already a million dollars.

[Infratracide]

Uhh well, you could say paintball is a bit more unstable than most other sports in the world. There are many factors, inside and out, that threaten it. Outside of paintball (law) the players are better suited for influencing the outcome. That means give your local senator a call when they decide to mess with regulations. Inside the sport I understand that manufactoring companies are in a constant fued. One company in particular is stirring things up a bit and I think that they are gunna get shoved off the huge mountain of cash they are making. One company cannot possibly maintain 10+ copyright infringement lawsuits when everyone of them have the potential to make their own copyright void. (there is much previous art that SP has just laid claim too, everyone they sue will try to disprove their copyright.) The industry isn't going to die antime soon.

Together we should keep our sport healthy by thinking possitivly, playing safe, supporting good ideas, and having fun.

[Robbie]

There is no way i would let a company try to strong arm $10.00 dollars from me let alone 1 million dollars. It has Nothing to do with wether you have the money its the principal of it.i would rather spend 1 milion fighting something than just rolling over. Alot of people have done alot of selfless things in this sport to try and make it great. Its not always about how much money you can rake in.

[warpfeedmod]

I would do it on one condition, and only one, it does not hurt anyone on the other side/end. I.e. mean using this money to rebutt a lawsuit, patent a technology, buy out another company, etc. If the person on the other side of this is going to get hurt by losing their job, think about the repurcussions on that person. Sure everyone says don't do it if it will affect your own well being and your ability to support yourself/family. But what about who might end up getting hurt in this deal? What about if that person/company loses out?

I would look at it more of is there an 80% chance that some other company could go out of business, someone else could end up broke and on the street with their family? Do you want to be known as the one who saved the industry? Or caused a company to fold and put those people out of work/on the street?

More of a moral dilemma for me, if you could prove without a doubt that someone else wouldn't get hurt as a result of this, I would do it. But if it is going to put more people out of work and possibly hurt somene else, take the money and invest it in something more secure.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by warpfeedmod
I would do it on one condition, and only one, it does not hurt anyone on the other side/end. I.e. mean using this money to rebutt a lawsuit, patent a technology, buy out another company, etc. If the person on the other side of this is going to get hurt by losing their job, think about the repurcussions on that person

I disagree with you on that point for an important reason.

Assuming that the industry needs saving that means that the end result of not saving the industry puts that person out of work either way. If saving the indutry means a bunch of people lose their jobs but many more keep them then I think that is a net benefit to the industry that would have otherwise lost all of those jobs.

Now, there is a difference between that and simply investing the money just to put others out of business. I would still do that, since in order to expand my business enough to crush someone else's I would need to hire, which means the net effect at least a status quo in jobs.

[Xyxyll]

I don't know if this has already been said (was too lazy to look through pages 2+), but it might not be too hard to regain $1 million w/ a fund. That way players all across the world could be the ones saving the industry.

[LaW]

So is there going to be any more follow up to this post Tom?

[karphead]

I'd do it in a heartbeat if I stood to gain $$$ from it, 80% are killer odds. I'd bet a lot on 80%.


If spending the 1Mil means you're going to save the industry and stand to make a pretty good profit afterwards, even if it just means the elimination of a competitor, then go for it. Like I said, 80% chance of coming out on top is great odds.

If you're spending the 1Mil just to keep the industry afloat while not furthering your company's position in the industry, it would probably be a waste of money. The industry needs to come together and save itself, not rely on Tom Kaye to keep it up. I mean, Tom, you're a paintball God and all, but you aren't made of money (to my knowledge)

^^Basically a rehash of what a lot of other people are saying, now that I reread it. Eh.

[LudavicoSoldier]

"At the very least for paintball, you need some ground, a mask, a gun, some friends and some paintballs. People will always play paintball. It doesnt need saving. Alls it needs is cheap paintballs and all day air. "

Honestly, I dont care what is the newest or fastest marker out there. Give me a nice light marker, cheap paint, and all day air (which we allready have for cheap). I have to stress the CHEAP PAINT. Aside from recent events (SP and such) paintball is doing pretty well. However, spending $100+ on paint per day of play simply drives many people (me) away. Give me a case of good paint (decently brittle, minimal seam) for $25-$35 (or less) consistantly, and I would be on the field every single weekend. My 2 cents...

[LaW]

oh wow, you guys can't complain about paint prices... although places still sell them for lots of money ie 100 dollars or so... there are plenty of fields that sell cases of paint for 65 or less too.

When I started playing 8 years ago I paid upwords to 115 to 130 dollars for a CASE of paint... how crazy is that? I think paint prices are doing ok. You have to also take into account that the fields you play at have to make their money somehow and thats where paint sales comes in... probably the number one money maker of the field.

[darc]

>>Would you Save the Industry if it Cost you a MILLION BUCKS?

No, not if you are going to stand alone.

The entire industry is large enough to band together for the common defense. If they won't, they don't deserve your salvation. You're always the good guy; working the hardest and often getting less recognition than whores who've long since traded integrity for marketing.

It's about time they all put up or shut up.

[Hysperion]

Unless I thought I could make a profit off it I wouldn't save the industry...could we mathematically factor in AGD's market share % and make that percent equal the percent of this mil? Then it might be worth doing.....

[Star_Base_CGI]

Keep us from playing with junk. *

IE pump guns that break balls every time.

[Jonno06]

Hm...

What would happen if you DIDN'T pay the 1 million dollars?


(looking for an answer from Tom)

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Jonno06
What would happen if you DIDN'T pay the 1 million dollars?

i believe based on the question that you and infer what would happen if you didnt lol