After the mag for AGD?

[Prairie]

Well, in my opinion...I don't see the mag valve/blow forward design lasting another 10 years...I just feel something may come along and completely blow older designs like this and the cocker away.

Any thoughts on if AGD would move on with the rest of the world?

In the eyes of outsiders, AGD has been one step behind for awhile (RT when electro started, emag when electros were getting faster, efficient, consistent)

Opinions?

[NJPaint]

The e-mag is one of the top notch electros, wtf are you talking about and the x-mag is just another step up from there...

[ultimatetrooper]

Mags are uniqe in there very own way, AGD might behind in the "times" but my RT mag is still faster than any electro out there... ;)(excluding the emag or x-mag, those are just a we bit FASTER!) I wouldn't really say they are "behind" because AGD has so many, kick *** products that no other company has ever made. They arn't really behind in my opionion. Just going about the buisness another way thats all.

thanks,

trooper.

[Gadget]

Since when has AGD been a step behind? From where I'm sitting it looks like the rest of the industry are still trying to catch up with a valve (RT) that was released 8 years ago.

[Prairie]

Yes...I know the emag is a top notch electro...

But speed wise, and trigger wise it isnt exactly a favorable electro...you definetly see many more intimidators and impulses at the field than emags.

I'm not bashing emags/mags..so no need to 'AO Bash' me.

[HoppysMag]

and agd was always ahead of their time, heard of this thing called compressed air and nitrogen, ya that was tom, intelifeeding, tom, tom pakaged agitating hoppers with mags back in the day. agd was always ahead of its time, other companys and thier patrons are too obseesed with what is "now" and see everything else as stupid. AGD is obsesed with what can be, and will always be looking back at what everyone else is doing.

[magmania]

i think the x-mag would blow any other gun out of the water...except for this new alien gun im hearing of...?

[adam shannon]

imo, and i am a high priest in the kult of kaye, so take it for what its worth...the rt valve was light years ahead of the rest of the industry...they have just come on par with its speed, but whats not even close yet for all of them is durrability. there are 6 year old rt valves still kickin it at 26bps. i had an impulse for a year...in that time i had to replace the solenoid 2 times.

tom as the president, and agd as a company will not go the cheap disposable route. tom has said as much personally to whoever will listen. he has even tongue in cheek complained that he makes products that last too long so he doesnt sell as many markers as other companies...and thats why we love agd.

sure he could make a hammer/valve/noid gun similar to the impulse, bm, or intimidator. it would be fast, and light, and all the hype....but not last as long as a mag. thats what its about for agd. tom wont copy the mainstream just to have another flash in the pan clone of a clone that will burn itself up within a year or two.

i think the spool valve idea or even a valveless idea like the epic will be the long term future of PB...and im sure tom is working on his own take (or maybe even something totally new) that will eclipse the rt valve for longevity and performance.

[jayel579]

i would like to see a company improve upon a valve with three moving parts and make it better. sure thing, when will that happen? its been working pretty well for a while now and will still be going 10 years from now.

[Steelrat]

Why don't you research "buggy whips" some time.

Look, as good as the valve is, is AGD rests on its laurels it will get passed by. Innovation is the life blood of any company in this industry.

Personally, I think AGD should keep the valve, but make a new electro design that does NOT utilize the huge battery and the sear. I think a conventional design using a small bettery and a small solenoid would make the mag the lightweight champion. Think about it, imagine what tiny valve like the X-valve could be like in a setup like that?

[Prairie]

Originally posted by Steeratt
Why don't you research "buggy whips" some time.

Look, as good as the valve is, is AGD rests on its laurels it will get passed by. Innovation is the life blood of any company in this industry.


Thanks, you sort of expressed what I was trying to

[Koosh]

Personally the ONLY thing I think they need to do is work on effeciency and marketing...

Mags aren't gas hogs, but hey, everyone could use more shots per tank.

Ever wonder why the roller triggers didn't take off? Because no one outside of AO knew about them! Heck, I completely forgot they were there until I wanted to buy one and they weren't in the store anymore!

They have the speed, the flashy good looks, and consistency now all we need is the ability to get 4 cases out of a 48/3k tank... and for everyone to know it.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Prairie
Yes...I know the emag is a top notch electro...

But speed wise, and trigger wise it isnt exactly a favorable electro...you definetly see many more intimidators and impulses at the field than emags.

I'm not bashing emags/mags..so no need to 'AO Bash' me.

But are more people using Timmys rather than E-Mags because they're actually better markers, or because they're more fashionable?

Btw this isn't an 'AO Bash', like you I'm expressing my opinion...which is that regardless of whatever is flavour of the month with the easily swayed, E and X-Mags are as good a marker as money can buy.


Look, as good as the valve is, is AGD rests on its laurels it will get passed by. Innovation is the life blood of any company in this industry.

How much genuine innovation has actually happened in valve design in the last 5...or 10 years? Virtually every marker out there is using a valve which has its origins in the early 90s. Unless there are some advances in the materials that can be used or the way power can be generated, you're not going to see any great leaps in valve design - designs will continue to evolve, but I doubt we will see any revolutionary new designs any time soon.

[Steelrat]

If there was no innovation, there would be no difference between markers. The fact is, there is a world of difference between, say, a mag and a viking. I think AGD has a lot to offer in terms of technology, they just need to try and improve some things to match the needs of the market. I think the X-mag is a step in the right direction.

Do they need to start producing stack-tube blowbacks? No. Can they keep trying to rely on classics to carry the company? No.

[adam shannon]

most innovation in the last year or so is software driven. intimidators shoot as fast as they do because of shot buffering in the software...and soon e/x mags will have shot buffering also. it doesnt really count as innovation, but it will put the king back on the throne.

[Steelrat]

Mags are not better than any other hight-end marker. They have thier own special advantages, just like any other marker, and find their own way of getting to the same end result: shooting paintballs. We must be careful to not assume that other markers are inferior becasue they use different designs.

[Gadget]

The fact is, there is a world of difference between, say, a mag and a viking.

Well yes, the Viking looks like it was welded together from spare M1 tank parts ;)....but on the performance side? Sure the Viking is more gas efficient....but ROF, accuracy, consistency? Not much between the two tbh.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by Gadget


...but on the performance side? Sure the Viking is more gas efficient....but ROF, accuracy, consistency? Not much between the two tbh.

So aside from looks, why would you go with the mag? Manual mode would be the only reason I can come up with...

[Prairie]

Did he just say accuracy?

Anyway...

I'm glad some intelligent people jumped into the thread to support the mag side, thanks.


Continue the discussion, i'd like to hear some more.

[dcmander]

Feel, compactness, low profile, lightness, magnetic trigger.

Just to name a few.

[Gadget]

I like the design, the performance, the reliability and the looks.

....and I've never run out of gas in a game in the 10 years I've owned mags.

So why would I want to use any marker other than a mag? ;)

[Jerhew]

more innovation has gone on at AGD in the last 2 years than any other company in paintball...
heck...level 10 alone, to me anyway, sets them above all others as a foolproof(as long as it's setup properly), mechanical anti-chopping device

the warp feed...ule bodies...ule trigger(soon)...x-mags...y-grip...i'm sure i'm forgetting something

as has been said already
as long as they keep going the way they have
the only thing that needs fixing is the marketing...

Tom is a very smart guy, to me it's pretty obvious that he has some long term plans for the product line and if we can recognize that the classic won't last forever...I'm more than sure he sees it too

[Koosh]

Right, I'm on my fourth mag right now, and don't see myself giving it up anytime soon...

But There are guns that are just as fast, just as consistant, just as reliable, just as if not more effecient, from companies that are just as good as AGD... The mag was better engineered... 5 years ago... the rest of the industry is catching up quick and can offer a product that can match and/or beat AGD's specs.

Heck, my dream gun is an X-Mag, but its naieve for us to assume that it'll be on top forever...

[Gadget]

That's a fair point, but until another manufacturer releases a marker which offers me a real advantage over my E-Mag, I'll be sticking with AGD.

But I'm not in any way saying that other manufacturers markers are inferior - just that I'm happy with mine and can't currently see any advantages that would persaude me to change to another make.

[rx2]

As was mentioned, the only real innovations from other companies have things like the spool valve or valvless designs. Oherwise, most companies are using what are essentially the same systems that they have been using since the mid-nineties. In most cases, these companies have simply found ways to tweak a little bit more performance out of designs, and have added electronics.

Now, one had mentioned that Tom CAN'T rest on the current valve design. Well, it is possible that he isn't, and just hasn't mentioned anything, as it would be too early. On the flipside, just what is so bad about the current valve, anyway?

Let us examine the current state. We have the aluminum X-Valve. No one, so far as I have heard, has ever been able to get it to shoot-down (unless it is short stroked). With level 10, it is nearly impossible to chop decent paint. Being aluminum, it is very lightweight. It also goes without saying that it is compact, and sturdy to boot.

So, what we have here is a valve system that is faster than anyone will ever be able to shoot, lightweight, chop-free, small, and durable. I fail to see the problems here.

Of course, it is impossible to say that there are not a couple of shortcomings.

One person mentioned the large solenoid/battery. Of course, when your marker is half the size of the average marker, it is hard to really call this a problem, but lets just say that it is. This is needed because of the pull-weight. Lower the weight, and you can use smaller components, correct? Well, if the ULE trigger can effectively slice the weight of the pull by two-thirds, then that will be achieved. I do believe Tom was considering this possiblity. So, in this respect, Tom IS progressing. We may see a smaller solenoid/battery in the near future.

The only two other problems I can think of are short-strokability, and efficiency.

For the short-stroke, there is the electronic frame. Unless we are all forced to go back to mech, you might as well consider that point moot for most players. It would still be a potential problem for mech users, but who knows? Is it not possible that there could be devised a mechanical update to stop this? The RT certainly helps this problem, perhaps Tom may work on that in the future.

As far as efficiency goes, I can't say. Now, with higher-pressure 5K tanks, it shouldn't be as much of a problem, unless you are firing 2000 rounds per game. Of course, it is still nagging for those backyard players who don't have fill stations of SCUBAs for all-day play. But, again, it is presumptuous to say that Tom isn't working on this.

And, finally, to reiterate a previous point, only Tom can say whether or not he trying to progress. We don't know what he is thinking up; we don't know what intimate knowledge he alone is privy to (unless you have tapped into the collective unconscious). He takes criticism seriously, and as such is probably hard at work thinking of all he can to silence the complaints.

So, I think that I have demonstrated that most problems with the current valve are mostly perceived, as well as the notion that AGD rests on their laurels. It is possible there may be some new stuff in the works, or it may be possible that Tom is simply working to perfect the current system. If the later is true, I see no reason why the current valve would not have longevity beyond the present. And, even if he doesn't iron out the wrinkles, I think that the current valve will still be a valid system for years to come.

[Prairie]

Now that...that was a good reply.

[madmatt151]

This guy is not the only one who has told me this BS. Last time I was at Cousins (a local paintball store) the guy kept telling me yeah he knew mags were good, but the technology is old! Even if that were true, its not, why would that matter if the guns shoots the way you want and is well built. Hell look at all the vehicles most Americans are driving now. These SUVs are based on OLD technology of a body on frame. Do you see people not buying them? Most of these guys in the sport have a bad image of the mags and I say the hell with em. Let em think that and We will still be the wiser.

[WarBUCKs]

I think what he means about being a step behind is that Low Pressure is the latest and greatest stuff, and AGD doesn't have a LP gun yet.

If technology keeps improving at the current rate, I am sure that AGD will have a LP gun in 4 years (sub-200psi if they decide to take that route). The Level 10 is a great help, lets the bolt think it is a "LP" gun when it really isn't. So soft on the paint!

What AGD has done, IMO, is take their "old guns" and make them brand spanking new time and time again. The innovations (LX bolt, ULE equip) that come from AGD influence the entire paintball world. I would almost be willing to say that Tom would love to make the current valve LP, R&Ding an attatchment piece and is trying his damndest to do it. I would have to say AGD is ahead of techology, but behind in the "What's Popular at the moment" idea.

[nt2004]

hmm most other threads here are talking about how advanced AGD is and how amazing their upgrades are. This is one of the first ones that say AGD is behind the market

[Lohman446]

What

Ok - you have guns on the market now that can outshoot anyones ability to pull the trigger, and hoppers that will nearly keep up with them. Fully auto is banned. We have proven that accuracy is paint to barrel match (I was hitting a 2" steel pipe at 50 feet consistantly with my X-valved, CP .689 barrel, and marbalizer today). What more could you want from a gun. The only possible improvements i see in guns in the future is efficiency(or a new propulsion system entirely). Valveless and spool valves (while I will admit I know nothing about them) can do little more than the same thing valves today do - propel the paintball.

[Bad_Dog]

"behind"??

I plan to keep my mag till I'm dead...
and I have a feeling that it'll last that long...

That's all that matters to me...

[rx2]

I failed to cover the aspect of the trigger in the E-Mag. Now, while it is completely adjustable, and there are aftermarket blades which have been successfully used in manual, it is one area where AGD is missing a lot of potential customers, I think.

In my experience, the stock trigger is not setup to comply with what many players are looking for. From what I have heard, most people complain that it is a tad difficult to walk. You and I know that it is completely adjustable, but many probably do not, and in today's instant gratification society, most people want to walk into a store and purchase a marker that will fire just as easily as the others, with no tweaking. Some will not mind, but many are more likely to go with the hyped marker with amazing pull than the undersold Mag with what might be a slightly disfavorable pull out of the box. The problem is, though, that keeping the trigger set the way it is, stock, is probably the most fool-proof, and will allow players to easily shoot in all three modes, no problems.

This, I think relates back to the dreaded "M" word - marketing.

Unless Tom plans to release an electro-only Mag, which I don't think he has been too enthusiastic about in the past, then the trigger will be set the same way. I think that the only way to really get people to overlook this is to get them to undestand that this setting isn't adamant. Also, they need to understand why this marker is more than just the trigger. Aside from tournament use of Mags, and the related hype, marketing is the other means.

So, in this regard, AGD could be considered behind, or lacking.

If what I said sounds odd, consider how many posts one sees here touting other markers over E/X-Mags based upon the trigger. Now, we have all probably seen people rip on their Mags at speeds that are at the human limits. Yet, we keep seeing posts on how the Mags just aren't fast enough. While I am sure there are some that will dislike the E-Mag triggers no matter how they are set, I think that most people who complain simply haven't tried one that has been optimized for their style of shooting. After all, one can't really say that the other markers are truly faster, when most, including the Mags, have limits that exceed human capabilities (although the older E-Mags were capped too low). Yet, I always see posts claiming "marker 'X' is WAY faster than the E-Mag."

ANYHOW, I find that the stock trigger setup is probably the last complaint most people really have, and has turned off a lot of people who don't want to take the time to adjust it (that, and chrono issues). Again, though, I can't say that Tom isn't trying to adress this issue, as well, because I am not him. Perhaps he will take a cue from all of the TL-63 blades that were being made by a fellow AOer.

[AutomagRT1483]

Originally posted by Bad_Dog
"behind"??

I plan to keep my mag till I'm dead...
and I have a feeling that it'll last that long...

That's all that matters to me...

I betcha it will last long after your dead:) Mine will;) :p

[cphilip]

There is still nothing out there that can recharge as quickly as the RT Valves chamber. Its a benchmark that cannot be matched. Intantaneously and immediately and fully is as good as it can get. And no one else is even close.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Prairie
Well, in my opinion...I don't see the mag valve/blow forward design lasting another 10 years...I just feel something may come along and completely blow older designs like this and the cocker away.

Any thoughts on if AGD would move on with the rest of the world?

In the eyes of outsiders, AGD has been one step behind for awhile (RT when electro started, emag when electros were getting faster, efficient, consistent)

Opinions?
I just wanted to say I completely agree with you. AGD has some really innovative ideas, both now and in the past, but I think a lot of other companies do as well. I dont think the status of the Mag, and the invention of HPA tanks for Paintball, can still be considered as ahead of its time.

I think electro-pneumatic is where its at. The E & X-mag are great designs, but I think the Basic valve/reg design is going to begin to hold AGD markers behind. I could be wrong, but I think AGD has peaked with their design of the X-mag. Now sure, people back in the day could have said the same about the Classic Mag, but what else can you really do to The Electro Mag, without a complete redesign.

I would really like to see Tom venture off into another area of electro markers. I think his engineering is top notch. He's a really smart guy. I think the love of his current valve design is holding AGD back. Sure redesign, and research, and all the other bla bla bla involved in making another gun is tolling, but I think with Tom's skill, he has the potential to creat another gun that would shock the P-ball world.

Basically I'm saying I wouldnt buy another AGD electro. They're very good guns (my emag kicked ***). But there is too much out there, for me to limit myself to one design. However, like I said, I think Tom has one of the most brilliant minds in paintball. I'd almost be scared to see what kind of sucka-mowing-machine he could come up with next. Come on Tom! Push yourself! Impress us!

[cledford]

Originally posted by JEDI

I would really like to see Tom venture off into another area of electro markers. I think his engineering is top notch. He's a really smart guy. I think the love of his current valve design is holding AGD back. Sure redesign, and research, and all the other bla bla bla involved in making another gun is tolling, but I think with Tom's skill, he has the potential to creat another gun that would shock the P-ball world.

Basically I'm saying I wouldnt buy another AGD electro. They're very good guns (my emag kicked ***). But there is too much out there, for me to limit myself to one design. However, like I said, I think Tom has one of the most brilliant minds in paintball. I'd almost be scared to see what kind of sucka-mowing-machine he could come up with next. Come on Tom! Push yourself! Impress us!

Dude, with all due respect, WTF? Do you have any idea what you've just said? You've basically just told the guy who invented the only PB valve TO HAVE NOT EVEN REACHED IT"S POTENTIAL to go back and build a gun on technology that has already been proven to be outdated? Doesn't make sense to me...

Anyhow, here is is the rest of my response to this thread...

Cphil is right about the RT valve - I've seen it on a dyno. No other marker (period) can come close to recharging as fast. It does not matter how fast the might CYCLE, if you really can pull 16-20 bps any other gun is going to shoot down on you (whether you notice it or not) and the RT won't.

Also, someone said that AGD has yet to come out with a LP gun - this MYTH has been settled time and again - there is no LP pressure!!! All guns (within a less then 10psi difference) put the SAME BLAST OF AIR BEHIND THE BALL. Just because the Air going filling the chamber is higher MEANS NOTHING unless YOU WANT IT TO FILL FASTER - which do you prefer?

It seems that every couple of weeks the same type of post comes up. As stated earlier in this one - AGD is so ahead of the time that the other STILL haven't caught up. To tell you the truth they MAY NEVER! If you have ever heard Tom's lecture on orings then you'd know that there are some companies that aren't so "smart" after all - since they can't even design a marker that functions correctly. As Tom has stated the Oring is atom of paintball - if you don't understand how it works how can you understand any of the rest of gun design? The other so called "engineers" working at other companies are no where near his league. Even Aaron Alexander (who semi-impressed me) still thinks that closed bolt guns shoot more accurately - how can that be?

The truth is that most people in the industry (consumers or producers) can't handle AGD's level of pioneering and have to "catch up" years later. Look at the Zgrip - how many years did it take WDP to knock off the idea? Now everyone is doing it. There are countless examples for this - power-feed, compressed air, "response triggers", etc.

-Calvin

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I still would like more research/info on that nothing can touch the RTs recharge rate, and is the RTs recharge rate a good thing ie the ramping of velocity. Plus recharge rate is directly proportional to what it is meant to do, ie I doubt the RT would perform well at 200 psi. Also the RT is a single use regulator tailor made for the marker since it is in essence the marker itself. Whereas almost all other regulators can be adopted via the standard ASA to any marker (with an ASA).

I doubt the mag design will fall behind any time soon, at least the basic "mag" design, ie being an open bolt blow forward that velocity is adjusted by a regulator. Take a look at the modern combustion engine, same basic concept as 80 years ago...But do to refining the concept we can say that the motors of yesteryear are much different than todays standard.

Is AGD "behind the times"? They were but they are now catching up...Take for instance some of innovations that took 10 years to finally catch on, Vertical Feed...its industry standard now. Threaded barrels as opposed the Twist Lock, some may say that the Twist Lock is innovation but obviously a majority of the paintball community prefers the cocker threaded. The ability to survive brittle paint, many markers have had no problems with this for years.

The valve itself is at the cusp of innovation...First to have a regulator as standard equipment, nice ROF, tight compact package...

All of these things reflect the trend in AGD to create a well made product but to ignore the other facts of a business, marketting, and the accessories.

Az

[845]

The thing that is holding AGD back is the wait on the X-Mags. I know tons of people who want one but end up buying a different gun cause they dont wanna wait 6 months.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by cledford


Dude, with all due respect, WTF? Do you have any idea what you've just said? You've basically just told the guy who invented the only PB valve TO HAVE NOT EVEN REACHED IT"S POTENTIAL to go back and build a gun on technology that has already been proven to be outdated? Doesn't make sense to me...

Also, someone said that AGD has yet to come out with a LP gun - this MYTH has been settled time and again - there is no LP pressure!!! All guns (within a less then 10psi difference) put the SAME BLAST OF AIR BEHIND THE BALL. Just because the Air going filling the chamber is higher MEANS NOTHING unless YOU WANT IT TO FILL FASTER - which do you prefer?


-Calvin
Dude! Why dont you accept that there are opinions other than yours. Right, I told him to go back and design, you said "has not reached its potential"...well... wouldn't getting closer to its potential require REDESIGNING? Or are you suggesting Tom already has all the plans and ideas for Mags years to come?

And why is it, when it comes to any disadvantage in a mag, you hard core Mag fans are so quick to call it a "Myth". I've seen plenty of Fast guns recharge at an acceptable rate with no shoot down. Great, so in lab tests, the RT is the fastest. In real time gun in your hand shooting, who cares? I'd rather have a gun that shoots pretty damn fast, and requires only a 250 input, then a gun thats the fasted gun in the world :rolleyes: and requires 1000 psi input.

You're acting like no other gun performs well, and everything has rediculous amounts of shootdown. Low pressure isnt a myth. Let me see you shoot your Emag at insane rates of fire, on a tank with 400 psi left in it. My E-blade can. But notice, I didnt say it's better than your Emag. I'm just saying running a marker on something less than a bottle rocket is nice. Ok, your right, low pressure means nothing... than why did Tom redesign his bolt to be a "low pressure" bolt. Try sticking your finger in a non LX mag. My cocker pinched paint when it was stock out of the box. I can put my finger in the breach of and E-blade or impulse with no problem.

I'm so sick of the defense that there is no low pressure. You bring up all these insignificant arguements, but fail to compare 1000psi working pressure, and 250psi working pressure. Hmm... one of those sounds like LOWER PRESSURE.

Take your pissed off at everyone, I know everything- attitude somewhere else, and allow the rest of us to hold a decent conversation with out flaming.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by JEDI
I'm so sick of the defense that there is no low pressure. You bring up all these insignificant arguements, but fail to compare 1000psi working pressure, and 250psi working pressure. Hmm... one of those sounds like LOWER PRESSURE.

Thats just flat wrong... The working pressure is around 400 psi in the mag... Input is and can be the same as most any other marker. You completely forget the Mag valve is a regulator in itself. BUT with the unique ability to put full tank pressure into the Air Chamber for faster recharge. You don't get it. LP is NOT an advantage in this respect nor does it automatically spell "better". That's just oversimplistic thinking. LP is a direct result of a marker requiring it to overcome some of its design disadvantages so it will slow it's bolt speed down. It doesn't make it better. And in some cases makes it worse. Its not any advantage when all the other things you want a marker to do are thrown into the mix. In the mag we can do ALL the things we want to without the numbers of LP that you call LP. Assuming you want to call LP anything lower than 400?

No one else can do slow bolt speeds, low pressure to ball surface, regulate the tank air, dump full pressure into the Air Chamber for lightning fast recharge AND achieve high rate of fire with a fast bolt speed at the end. Its a marvelous valve. All in one package. Its so compact and does so many things well its going to be impossible to beat that.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

"Impossible to beat?"

Very few if any things are impossible to beat. Efficiency? Battery Size for the Emag? The Mag is an excellent design but let us not assume it is the best design. The inability to run off CO2...The shoot up. Those all come to mind. How about cost? Or are we not factoring in that and just looking at a purely performance side?

On a side note, LP means relatively little. The LVL10 works remarkably well and solves the whole breaking paint issue quite well. An excellent innovation no doubt.

Az

[Gadget]

I wouldn't say that the inability to run on CO2 is a disadvantage. When you consider that my entire team started running HPA in 1994, it's amazing that almost a decade later we still haven't managed to stamp out CO2 completely.

[silentdeath55]

think about it this way, how many designs that could beat a mag valve would be able to run on CO2??

[sharpshooter1286]

jedi, u are contradicting what more than half the people said here and then said "let us hold a decent conversation without flaming" when u urself just did a huge amout of flaming

[RRfireblade]

Possible future refinements for the Mag....

#1- Carbon fiber valve body (sweet)

#2- Titanium bolt

#3- Nuclear fusion reactor (no batteries)

#4- On board N2 diffusion system w/ internal compression.
(no air tank)

#5- Intellifire -like intellifeed 'cept fires on every
mental trigger pull, then people will actually be able
to shoot as fast as they THINK they do now.

#6- Warp factor 10 feed (trekkies will get that one)

#7- Meglev Barrel system - bored magnetic superconductor,
positively charges the paintball causing levitation
down the barrel and retaining the positive charge
down range causing FLAT tragectory,unlimited range with
complete spin free ejection. (cocker's beware)

So you see there's plenty of improvement left.

Jay.

P.S. All these ideas are Patent Pending so don't get any ideas SP.


;)

[Prairie]

Originally posted by Gadget
I wouldn't say that the inability to run on CO2 is a disadvantage. When you consider that my entire team started running HPA in 1994, it's amazing that almost a decade later we still haven't managed to stamp out CO2 completely.


Why would we do that? A correctly set up CO2 system allows way more shots than anything else....plus, I don't see any 12 gram nitrogen bottles coming out anytime soon.


think about it this way, how many designs that could beat a mag valve would be able to run on CO2??

All of them...any marker can be ran using co2 with a proper reg setup.

[Prairie]

Originally posted by RRfireblade

#7- Meglev Barrel system - bored magnetic superconductor,
positively charges the paintball causing levitation
down the barrel and retaining the positive charge
down range causing FLAT tragectory,unlimited range with
complete spin free ejection. (cocker's beware)

Was just talking about this with a friend of mine last night....having a hopper that charges the balls, and a electromagnetics step-bolt/barrel combo...definetly seeing WAY WAY future paintball here.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ
"Impossible to beat?"

Ok well I guess if you want to take something out of context...I believe we were talking about the valve and its operation. I know I was.

[Frontline Newbie]

Originally posted by Lohman446
What

Ok - you have guns on the market now that can outshoot anyones ability to pull the trigger, and hoppers that will nearly keep up with them. Fully auto is banned. We have proven that accuracy is paint to barrel match (I was hitting a 2" steel pipe at 50 feet consistantly with my X-valved, CP .689 barrel, and marbalizer today). What more could you want from a gun. The only possible improvements i see in guns in the future is efficiency(or a new propulsion system entirely). Valveless and spool valves (while I will admit I know nothing about them) can do little more than the same thing valves today do - propel the paintball.
you said basicly what I wanted to say but was to lazy. Paintball guns are as good as they get, Even the newest closed bolt fully pnumatic electrics like the matrix arn't any faster or more accurate, and I don't see agd moving that way any time soon.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
#5- Intellifire -like intellifeed 'cept fires on every
mental trigger pull, then people will actually be able
to shoot as fast as they THINK they do now.
I like the way you think!

[PaintballSmurf13]

ok, im not going to read all of these, so what I say may have already been said......

I think AGD is WAY ahead of the industry. Just think about it..they have made grips like the Zgrip and Ygrip or comfort..they have a SINGLE tube design that has been reworked a whole lot to bring you a really compact and incredibly fast gun. They have bolts that cant chop paint and you can even put your finger in the breech (lvl 10). Mags are compact, reliable, fast, light, and simple. basically everything you'd ever want in a gun. They have intellifeeds for MANUAL guns. They invented the reactive trigger years ago which is just a fast as any electro, without running on batteries.

And think about it. If Dynasty or the Ironmen started using mags, a LOT more people would shoot mags. Its all about guns that look cool and are used by pros. Its all HYPE. Its like a popularity contest. I see people talk all kinds or trash about mags yet they've never owned one or shot one. It sickens me:mad: . Well, i'm done ranting, just my $0.02.

-Ryan F.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

I tried not to take it out of context, all of my points were directed at the valve, although I suppose I could say the large battery pack is a stretch. The Mag was and still is a very nice design. By itself it is a very streamlined product, that is still neat to realize you can fit 90% of the workings of a paintball marker into, as opposed to say a cocker in which half of it hangs out the front. OF course by the same token look at the Blazer, also a very small compact system. Maybe not quite as elegant but still small and compact.

Az

[Wooosh87]

To get back on the subject, is AGD behind or in front of the pack? I have owned my 68 Automag, (that's right, not a "Classic," but an original Mag), since 1991. If I were to go and purchase an Automag right now today, it would be almost 99% the identical unit I have had for almost 13 years. The only things I can think of that has changed on the Mag from my old one to today's new ones are:

What's different:

Composite grip frame
Plastic nubbins
Foamless bolt
No barrel included
No ASA/bottom line included
No loader included

What is the same:

Stainless main body
Aluminum main rail
Stainless valve assembly
Loader elbow
Bottle of oil
Instruction manual
Instructional VHS video (Tom looks like a teenager!)


Yes, the Automag was available without a barrel and ASA back in 1991, but very few were sold that way. Mostly they were regular feed bodies that were used for field rentals. The most popular configuration was the CP/PF, (Crown Point barrel and Power Feed in either Hopper left or right model).

So, six things have changed in over 10 years. Three of which are excluded items that are not available even as options. What this boils down to is that the gun is the same as it was 10+ years ago. Nothing drastic has changed. Now mind you this is only with the "Classic" Automag, not the E Mag, X Mag, R/T. The Minimag has changed even less! Is AGD getting old? Yes, But only in some of the product line. They have released many new items into the fold over the years, but still have limited products to offer. All the ULE and Aluminum stuff is great, but it's just a lighter version of the stock units with moderate changes. My opinion is that they should have had the ULE body out many years ago as a standard item.
I still own my Mag, and have bought and sold many other guns since 1991. But I still have my good old reliable Mag.

I think there is a better question to ask here:

Is AGD getting boring?

That all depends on your taste. I personally think the base product line is stale. The Classic, Mini and R/T just don't cut it in the looks and price department. When a customer walks into a pro shop and checks out the guns on the wall, does the Classic Automag look as appealing as that flashy Spyder that costs $100.00 less? Depends on the person I guess. Personally I want to purchase an item that is going to give me the best performance, looks, reliability all for the least amount of money. I also don't want to hear from the salesman that I need to spend "X" amount more just to have a usable gun. Personally a drab gray or matte black gun that's incomplete and more expensive is not as appealing than that stack tube-semi-auto-same-as-the-rest-cloned-spyder that only needs a tank, goggles and some paintballs to get me playing.
AGD has lost out on the entry level and even mid range market. They just don't bring enough to the table. Now you can argue that AGD has brought the E Mag, X Mag and R/T Pro to the market, but in all fairness it was a bit less than stellar an entrance for this product line. They never really advertised or marketed these items to the fullest extent. They tried to let the AGD name and reputation carry these products to the limelight. Not the best choice. How often do you see PVI Shockers and Angel LED's in the older video's and magazines compared to the R/T's and Classic Mag's? I know that I was excited to see ONE R/T in a video from 1998. (Go back 3-5 years more and all you see is Mags and Cockers. That was really all that was available for the top level and pro teams at that period in time).

Let's now compare three companies at the same time at the present day. AGD, Tippmann and Kingman are good examples. Three known names in the paintball community that are respected in one form or another. Which of these companies do you see in any paintball specific magazines and video's at any given month? Tippmann and Kingman are in there with multiple page spreads every month. AGD hasn't been seen in a magazine on a regular basis for quite some time now. Tippmann and Kingman advertise a broad product selection for their customers to look at and contemplate that next purchase. AGD's products may pop up in a "new items" section once in a while, but not as regularly advertised products. I can throw that figurative "rock" at a magazine and hit a spyder/clone or Tippmann nine times out of ten. Will I hit upon an AGD product? Not very likely. Kingman did themselves a world of good when they bought pro team Bad Company. Here is a pro team shooting off the rack guns against expensive and top of the line guns. Good way to highlight that your products are capable of contending with the best. Tippmann also has a good thing going for them with Tippmann Effect. Check out www.Warpig.com in the IAO photo directory. On almost every page you see the team Tippmann Effect. These guys shoot guns that have been labeled by the masses for the entry level player. You can pick these guns up, (in base form for under $150.00) at Wal Mart and K Mart. Not only is this free advertising, but it's in your face advertising on yet a subtle level. AGD has been left behind at the marketing department. The old adage still holds true, "To make money, you have to spend money." To get the word out on your products you have to advertise, and do it on a regular basis be it in print, video or on the Internet, advertising sells products. Yes, AGD has sponsored teams. Yes, you do see them on websites, magazines and video's but not to the scale as Tippmann and Kingman have accomplished. Why? Kingman and Tippmann have paid money to do so. Will AGD stick to sponsoring teams? I truly hope so. Will we see AGD ad's in the popular magazines? I would like to see them do that, and more.

On a different, yet same note, what is AGD missing in it's product line? For one, soft goods. Jerseys, tee shirts, hats, barrel condoms, lanyards, pants, gloves, etc.
Paintball has become more than just going out and playing a game. It has become a fashion frenzy. Take a look at DYE Precision Inc. Here is a company that exploited the growth of paintball to the fullest extent. Can anyone remember what DYE's first product was? I personally don't remember. I do know that you can buy all your gear and equipment from one company, and that is DYE. From your goggles to your shoes, you can be 100% covered in DYE stuff. You can even buy that new set of DYE socks with money straight out of your DYE wallet that was stuck in the back of your DYE shorts that are held up by that DYE belt that your DYE shirt covers up. See what AGD missed out on? Is it a good thing to exploit the sport and even you the customer? A lot of people think it's just fine that DYE did it, or they wouldn't be so popular. Oh, and how did you get to the shop in all your DYE gear? on your SPYDER skateboard!

AGD has chosen, by choice or by default to take the path less traveled. I can respect that. I can also respect DYE for going the extra mile in marketing and in there product line to try and completely dominate the market. After all, business is business right?

Personally I have used AGD products for almost 13 years now. That's 13 years of good customer service, quality products and a feeling in my gut that I know my gear is going to work day in and day out. I respect AGD like no other company in the paintball industry. I would now like to see them step up to the plate and swing for the fence...

[AGD]

Ok I am going to respond to Woosh because I think he has some valid points but I would like to clarify.

Its unfair to compare us to Kingman and entry level markers in general. To say that we lost the entry level market is true but its true for EVERYONE. The only people that can compete in that market is China and Brass Eagle who are having everything made in Mexico now.

Were we boring? Yes I would have to agree with you we were and in many ways still are. The Classic from the name to the look is uninspiring. Then why the heck do we still sell it? Simple, because it outsells our other markers by about 4-1. Don't ask me why it just does. Its tough to drop the product when it goes together easily and doesnt come back for repairs.

On to Tippmann, brilliant company in peak form. If someone could please explain to me why they can sell any gun as long as its black and the best seller is the 1998 model I would sure like to know. Tippmann couldn't be more different than Kingman with their 100 models but they both split the market in two, go figure. No one but Tippmann understands how they are so successfull and I sure don't see anyone duplicating their moves.

Extra stuff like apparel. Yes its important if you want to look big. I think you should give us some points for what we have come out with in the last year or so. We do have jersies, hats, barrel condoms, stickers, girl stuff, t-shirts , mousepads, posters and sweatshirts. Just because you dont see it at your local store doesn't mean we don't have it.

We are lacking in advertising that is true. But again give us points for having the largest owners group on the net, we do almost as many kilobytes as PBN (if you can believe it) and we are VERY involved with our customers. All the other manufacturers are launching forums trying to create what we have here. Call it a cult or whatever you want but the fact is we have a lot of fun here and people go away thinking good thoughts about AGD and thats what advertising is all about.

In closing I would like to remind everyone that Tippmann, Worr Games and AGD are the only gun manufacturers to survive from the 80's so we must be doing something right.

AGD

[Gadget]

Why would we do that? A correctly set up CO2 system allows way more shots than anything else....plus, I don't see any 12 gram nitrogen bottles coming out anytime soon.

Oh please, CO2 is an AWFUL power source for paintball guns when compared to HPA. I have horrible memories of trying to get a decent bottle fill in the middle of winter, huge cloudbursts out of the end of your barrel, elaborate expansion systems to prevent liquid getting into guns (mags and cockers alike), watching peoples bottles freeze under rapid fire and seeing their velocity drop-off, bottle burst disks blowing in the summer when someone left a tank in the sun etc etc.

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Wooosh87
I think there is a better question to ask here:

Is AGD getting boring?


I think this is a great point from your post - and if it had been asked a couple of years ago, I might have has to say 'yes', but not now. It seems to me as if AGD are really ramping up the product releases - in the short time I've been reading this forum they've probably released more products than they did between 1996 and 2000.

They might still have a 'boring' image to those outside of AO, but personally I'm really happy with the range of new products that they've been bringing to market and hopefully we can spread the word and change peoples perception of their products.

[Adrenaline0520]

Ok, Many of you here on AO know me as MicromagRT and I know that I had a misunderstanding with AO a while back about the X-mag, but that is solved now(Thanks Tom!:). What I would like to share is that AGD is a quality company with some of the most highest quality products even though they can take a long time to make;), but that just goes to show that hey care about customers and their quality service in what they make. The E-mag is far from being outdated and here are the reasons why:

1. It is one of the FASTEST guns on the market( RT valve still has highest recharge rate and who was the first to come up with Reactive and Magnetic Trigger, AGD)

2. The LVL 10 has solved the problem of breaking paint so why need a low pressure gun when that was mainly the reason for having low pressure(other than gas efficiency, except the old school Shocker which was one of the worse gas hogs in history), LVL 10 has solved that and is purely mechanical!

3. Now because of ULE, the mag is one of the lightest paintball markers on the market.

4. Durability and Reliability, mags are the most durable gun I have known in my five years of playing paintball.

5. Mags may not be the most efficient but by far are still very efficient guns on gas efficiency.

6. The E/X-mag can turn into an old school RT for us who are Old School:)

7. CUSTOMER SERVICE, this is where I was single handedly proven wrong, thanks to Tom my faith in AGD's customer service hit the roof, they have one, if not the best customer service in the paintball industry period.

So please prove me wrong if you can by the reasons I have given alone that AGD is being outdated, You can't. The E/X-mag may not be perfect (NO PB GUN IS) but the things that do not make it perfect (Example: Large Battery Pack) do not really effect the quality and performance of the gun. Tom is right, they MUST BE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT to last this long and I just listed the reasons above, period.

P.S.- Hurry up with me E-mag Tom!!!:),jk, can't wait to see it!

[JEDI]

Cphilip, I respect your knowledge of the mag. Honestly I wouldn't contest what you know. But, explain this to me, because this I know. You say technically the mag has a working pressure of 400psi. How so? Sure, it has an on board reg, that breaks down the 800 input. So do most guns though. (the inline reg) When I say working pressure, I think of the amount of air that is needed to come out of the tank to make the gun function. A mag will not work if I turned my Flatline down to 400 or 500 psi,(or used a 400psi preset) like on my E-blade. I'm not even going into "better", or "advantage". I'm just stating the difference.

Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)

With my Emag, It took about 950 input to even work, and I wouldnt dream of going into a game with only 1000psi left in my tank.

So, I dont claim that LP is the best thing since sliced bread. I would much rather run 400psi into my gun than 1000psi. It just seems to make sence. Have a gun that functions flawlessly, with less air to do so.

I'm not trying to force anyone to say LP is better, but I dont think its a fad, or hype.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by JEDI
Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)


Eh...

I wouldn't say "Mags are Gas Hogs"... heck, look at your own Low pressure guns, the Shocker and Stock Matrix were TERRIBLE gas hogs, yet other LP guns like the Viking, Excal, and upgraded/aftermarket matrices are extremely good.

Mags aren't gas hogs, and aren't super-effecient, I'd give them middle of the road... which isn't too bad, but hey, there is always room for improvement ;)

[cphilip]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JEDI
You say technically the mag has a working pressure of 400psi. How so? Sure, it has an on board reg, that breaks down the 800 input. So do most guns though. (the inline reg) When I say working pressure, I think of the amount of air that is needed to come out of the tank to make the gun function. A mag will not work if I turned my Flatline down to 400 or 500 psi,(or used a 400psi preset) like on my E-blade. I'm not even going into "better", or "advantage". I'm just stating the difference.

Well yes but working pressure would be the same if you wanted to call it "working pressure" BEFORE it was regulated down. An inline reg does the same thing. And there are a few examples of markers that use the Tanks reg as an inline reg. And these are subject to some shoot down. What I am saying is the Mag RT valve is DESIGNED for fast recharge. And so it can dump full tank input pressure PAST the reg for a split second to get that recharge. That is its advantage.

Not to mention, I know my Emag to be fairly consistent, but horrible on efficiency. I'm pretty sure this is common knowledge. Regardless, I know it's true for my mag. I own two guns that can shoot with 500psi left in a 400psi preset tank. (Thats without any shootdown)

That is a downside to the whole thing. Its what you give up for the advantages. Now where does that extra go? I have no idea realy. It must be in the volume of air that has to be dumped to get the ball moving. So somewhere in the shape and size of the Power Tube maybe? But can it be designed out some? I dunno. I know the Power Tube has undergone many a evolution. To get the most balance of these things. Could it be a step away from being better? Perhaps. But it actualy might end up that you would have to INCREASE the front ends pressure to do that! Would people start saying that high pressure is better? Even if the efficency went up? Possibly. But they would be generalizing and so wrong again. It would only be better in that particular design. But we may not have anything to give up there to keep all the other benifits. Maybe at some point the design limits us and we have to live with a little less efficiency. If that is preferable to giving up recharge rate and rate of fire I believe most would not want to go there. But only Tom can realy say if he feels he can tweek a little more out of that design in that area without losing something.

With my Emag, It took about 950 input to even work, and I wouldnt dream of going into a game with only 1000psi left in my tank.

Thats odd but I believe you. I ran mine very often at 750 - 800. And would shoot down to about 650.

So, I dont claim that LP is the best thing since sliced bread. I would much rather run 400psi into my gun than 1000psi. It just seems to make sence. Have a gun that functions flawlessly, with less air to do so.

Well you live with the consequences. And if you can live with them then thats the marker for you. I just see no real advantage to going down to that level. With 4500 psi tanks coming on that seems to me to be less of a point than it might have been.

I'm not trying to force anyone to say LP is better, but I dont think its a fad, or hype.

Well I know what your trying to say. But what I am trying to point out is that its not a majic bullet for all applications. It has its drawbacks in certain applications. And so it cannot be assumed that lower means better. It can in some instances make some possitive things happen while resulting in some negatives. As can higher pressure. What is right for the RT valve may not be right for some other maker. So just trying to make a RT valve operate at a lower pressure may not result in any gains in the primary areas the RT was designed to excell in. It may worsen some of them and all jut to say you lowered the business end of the valve to operate at 100 psi less. And to take the tank down another 200 psi. I do not think those are significant things to strive for. I want my Mag to shoot fast and recharge to keep up with shooting fast. Thats primary to me over what it shoots down to in the tank or what I can tell my buddy about its "operating pressure". But there is a myth that its automaticaly better. And that we both should agree may not be the case. Bolt speed can be harnessed other ways now. The level 10 proved that. The myth started as the only way to slow down the bolt for less chopping. And now its taken on a life of its own because people did not realy know what they were doing that caused this drop in chopping. So they started assuming it was operating pressure that was doing it. In fact it was not that but the resulting bolt speed reduction. Lowering the operating pressure had no effect realy on how much air was dumped to get the ball moving at 300 fps. That is inherent in all the rest of the design. If has to dump MORE air at a lower pressure to achieve the same speed of ball movement. but the bolt moves slower and with less force so it chops less balls. But we can do that with a two speed bolt like level 10. Yea we waste some air doing it. But in the end its better because we retain ROF at the same time. Which do you prefer? You cannot always have everything so you have to chose.

[mistwolf]

Actually, I remain absolutely baffled that I don't see more mags out there. I always have felt that way. I always get 'ohhhs' and 'ahhhs' when I break out my mag, yet people don't use them. Why? They seem to have one of the best designs. You certainly would have trouble beating the support! And the quality is amazing. There are very few downsides to mags.

So why don't people use them?

Because, well, people are stupid, in many ways. They don't buy markers because they are the best and will be the best for years. They buy them cause they are 'new' and 'cool' and look great. From what I can see, the common style is to buy a new marker at least once a year. That said, why would you buy a mag? They last too damned long! The technology is nearly perfect in them. You don't need to tinker, you don't need to upgrade. In short, people with mags spend too much time, well, playing paintball, instead of tinkering on the sidelines. And that's what most people REALLY want to do.

Jamie

[Wooosh87]

Originally posted by AGD
Ok I am going to respond to Woosh because I think he has some valid points but I would like to clarify.
AGD

Tom, thank you for responding personally to my post. That is why I like you and your company. You have taken a very personal approach with your customers. That is your strong point. No other company can claim that they are as involved with their customers as AGD is. I applaude you for that, and thank you for valuing my opinion enough to respond to it.

[Wooosh87]

Originally posted by Gadget

They might still have a 'boring' image to those outside of AO,

Gadget, that is my point. If your not on the inside, then you just don't know. AGD does have great products and world class support, but it doesn't reach out beyond the inner circle. Sure you can use all that "cult" stuff, but is that really just another term for customer loyalty? Why not try and bring in more customers by simple advertising is all I was after. Does having a huge semi trailer at the big events make one company better then another? No. Does it draw attention to your product line? Yes. I would simply like to see AGD step up to the big leagues with advertising. They have the products to back themselfs up.

[Wooosh87]

Originally posted by Adrenaline0520
What I would like to share is that AGD is a quality company with some of the most highest quality products even though they can take a long time to make;), but that just goes to show that hey care about customers and their quality service in what they make. The E-mag is far from being outdated and here are the reasons why:

1. It is one of the FASTEST guns on the market( RT valve still has highest recharge rate and who was the first to come up with Reactive and Magnetic Trigger, AGD)

2. The LVL 10 has solved the problem of breaking paint so why need a low pressure gun when that was mainly the reason for having low pressure(other than gas efficiency, except the old school Shocker which was one of the worse gas hogs in history), LVL 10 has solved that and is purely mechanical!

3. Now because of ULE, the mag is one of the lightest paintball markers on the market.

4. Durability and Reliability, mags are the most durable gun I have known in my five years of playing paintball.

5. Mags may not be the most efficient but by far are still very efficient guns on gas efficiency.

6. The E/X-mag can turn into an old school RT for us who are Old School:)

7. CUSTOMER SERVICE, this is where I was single handedly proven wrong, thanks to Tom my faith in AGD's customer service hit the roof, they have one, if not the best customer service in the paintball industry period.

So please prove me wrong if you can by the reasons I have given alone that AGD is being outdated, You can't.

Absolutly correct on every point made. Only problem is that if you do not know about all of this, you will not buy the prouct. AGD does have everything you have listed above, and more. But without advertising to the general paintball population, you will be left behind. All of us here at AO know about the great things that AGD offers, but does that outsider who is looking to purchase a highend electro marker know about the E Mag or X Mag? He may have heard about it, but has not seen any advertisement to make him think about the product. You can have the best product on the market, but if you don't know about it, you will not buy it.

[Vendetta]

May be its because I'm an artist and avoid the "mainstream" like poison, but I love the fact that at most fields I'm the only Mag. :cool:

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by cphilip
Well I know what your trying to say. But what I am trying to point out is that its not a majic bullet for all applications. It has its drawbacks in certain applications. And so it cannot be assumed that lower means better. It can in some instances make some possitive things happen while resulting in some negatives. As can higher pressure. What is right for the RT valve may not be right for some other maker. So just trying to make a RT valve operate at a lower pressure may not result in any gains in the primary areas the RT was designed to excell in. It may worsen some of them and all jut to say you lowered the business end of the valve to operate at 100 psi less. And to take the tank down another 200 psi. I do not think those are significant things to strive for. I want my Mag to shoot fast and recharge to keep up with shooting fast. Thats primary to me over what it shoots down to in the tank or what I can tell my buddy about its "operating pressure".

But in the end its better because we retain ROF at the same time. Which do you prefer? You cannot always have everything so you have to chose. [/B]

Just to play devils advocate,
#1- R/T recharge rate ~26-30 bps
#2- Emag cap= 16 on most i believe if not all(20-22 X-Mag/SFL?)
#3- assumed average of fastest fingers in the west ~18bps

How about sacrificing "some recharge for "some more" efficiency?

Some would be good.

I scuba so I could give a crap but for some......

Jay.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


How about sacrificing "some recharge for "some more" efficiency?

Some would be good.

I scuba so I could give a crap but for some......

Jay.

Right... Phil, this is a bit of what I'm talking about. Touting the fasted recharge rate is respectable, but a lot of other guns perform very well, with out the near perfection stats of a mag. It is a decision of what you want to give up based on what you want to achieve, but it almost sounds as if you're saying no other gun performs well without some huge disadvantage. I'm not quoting you. But it does sound that way. Why wouldn't AGD give up some recharge rate, being that it can't be reached (by human fingers) any way, for a little more efficiency?

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Prairie
But speed wise, and trigger wise it isnt exactly a favorable electro...you definetly see many more intimidators and impulses at the field than emags.


Yeah but Compaq is one of the most popular PC's and McDonald's is the number 1 fast food restaurant.

Being popular isn't the same as being the best.

[Lohman446]

I paused after writing this post and thinking about it some more, and have decided to post it - please note that I am very new to regularly playing paintball (I started the end of May and have not missed a weekend yet - I played a bit, but not enough to know anything before then). What I am going to post as my reasons to buy a mag, my considerations, my beleifs are exactly that, and I know now that many of them were wrong. But we are looking to sell markers and looking at those buying them...

Why I bought a mag - when I was looking into markers I instantly classed guns into tournament level markers and non-tournament level markers. I thought at first I would buy a beginners marker. My choices seemed to be Spyders and Tippmans. When I thought of other markers I thought of cockers, angels, and mags (this was with minimal research into markers). I classified all of these as tournament level and out of my range.

Between Spyder and Tippman, I noted that the Spyders had more option, but the Tippman had this flatline barrel system. I don't care if it works or not, at the time I beleived it did. I settled on buying a Tippman because I felt it was more reliable, and all the write ups the Tippman factory team did not hurt anything.

I did decide however, that I would buy a tournament level gun - and got hold of a smart-mag. Why did I buy a mag. My beleifs on this at the time - cockers were a "better" gun, but had a maintenance issues. I beleived Angels were out of my price range. A mag, well not necessarily as good, was a tournament level gun with little maintenance issues. In fact I had heard the idea "run them over with a truck" "throw them in water for a week" - the same things I had heard about the durability of a tippman.

Now - with a smart mag, a classic mag with X valve and ULE body I beleive that my mag can compete with any gun out there. But there were steps to get there.

What I think - based on my own inexperienced buying experience - could help AGD sell mags.

A new package, a rename of the 68 with powerfeed to "Tournament Classic" This brings up its rich history, immediatly labels it as a tournament level gun (is it or not is not an issue I am concerned with - it can be used competitively in tournaments). Make this a ready to shoot package - at least gun and barrel (and perhaps a "name" barrel, CP for instance). I have no idea on prices that it costs AGD to make or what they could buy things for. But if you could put together a package (hopper, 48/3000 HPA system, barrel, gun) and sell it in the sub $400 level ready to shoot, I beleive it would sell. Sell the gun and barrel alone in the $250 to $300 range - I think it could be done

Next, sell this tournament classic - market the thing. Make it a big deal in the national magazines - perhaps a tag line "The Mag you can afford to own". The new players, the entry level marker category - would buy this. This is the market to target - we know that Tippman, Kingman, and Brass Eagle are the dominant players in the paintball game - show me there high level equipment (maybe Tippman has it, but it is not there big sellers). The mag has to be made popular in the "paintball news" again, not just on AO. AO is great, but it had no bearing in my decision to buy a mag, did not know about it then. These are my thoughts on the subject, whether they are wanted or not, they are out there now.

[Jerhew]

seems that a lot of us feel that the only major problem AGD has to address is marketing.

yes there are plenty of minor tweaks here and there in the product line...
but then...that's to be expected with any company...

I imagine AGD just doesn't have the resources to put toward marketing(mainly i feel this is because they have the best r&d in paintball...)

actually when people say that the design is old
i just have to laugh...
the rt/retro/x-valve is absolute engineering genius...
anyone who doubts this needs to take a look at a diagram or something and see how it actually works

[Lohman446]

Maybe... not to try to say what I said earlier is not an idea... but maybe we are all missing the point.

Maybe Tom has decided that AGD is selling what he wants to - the profit is within what he deems acceptable. Maybe his love is R&D and selling more markers just does not interest him. Just a thought, but look at what Tom has now - he has a cult icon status, a loyal following, and I suspect a pretty level cash flow. Maybe he has decided AGD now - the most scientifically backed paintball manufacturer there is (I think) is exactly as he wants it now. Yes, we would all like to see AGD be some awe inspiring company, but maybe TK does not want the headaches that would go with selling a million markers a year (or whatever some great # would be)

[Jerhew]

perhaps he's satisified...
it's always a possibility
personally i'd just like to see more people around here with em
but i wouldn't want to sacrifice quality for quantity...and i know Tom wouldn't either

sometimes i just worry that such an awesome company might someday decide that they just aren't making the money and give up
and that'd be a sad day:(

[cledford]

Originally posted by Lohman446
A new package, a rename of the 68 with powerfeed to "Tournament Classic" This brings up its rich history, immediatly labels it as a tournament level gun

This is one of the BEST ideas I've seen!!!! I think that for the younger players not around during the "golden days" of the mag and cocker wars this would be a great way to tie AGD's rich pro level history into the present day.

-Calvin

[Vendetta]

Sometimes all you need is to rename your product.

[mistwolf]

I don't overly want more people using mags. I don't want less, and I don't care if there are more. It just confuses me that there aren't more, because the quality is amazing...

Jamie

[wad04]

yeah i don't think agd will ever go out of biz