downloading rant - warning it's large!

[Eric Cartman]

O.K. I figure I’m gonna catch some flames for this, but oh well. First off, I’m not trying to preach here. I just want to offer a different perspective on the whole downloading issue. I’ll start by saying that I work for the world’s largest music company. I do not have a glamorous high paying job. I don’t globe trot with supermodels & groupies and I don’t chill at the crib with Jay Z or P Diddy. I am one of the small cogs on the big wheel that is the company I work for and I have a very modest salary. On a fairly regular basis, we employees receive emails letting us know that Mr. X or Ms. Y who has been with the company for over 10 years is leaving the company due to “re-structuring” (they try to avoid calling it downsizing). We are told that so and so is leaving the company effective immediately to pursue other interests. We are told that they are wished well in their future endeavours. We are not fooled. We constantly receive the call to cut operating costs and to come up with any idea possible to save money. Of course this is no different than what is happening to companies all over the world. Things are tough all over and I can deal with that. What I have a hard time dealing with, is the fact that the problems that our industry faces are directly related to theft and we can’t stop it. On top of that, the attitude of the thieves is a little hard to take. There seems to be this impression that the fat rats up at the top of the industry and the big name artists have been ripping off the consumer for years so it’s time to get them back and stick it to them. Great. Here’s the problem with that logic, they aren’t the ones getting screwed! The CEO’s still want their salaries and their bonuses, and the artists still want their signing bonuses, so where do they make up for the cash shortage? From the salaries of the people who used to occupy the empty cubicle over there, and that empty office over there and from all of the people who used to work in that building around the corner that’s now for sale. It’s the small people like my co-workers and myself, people who are probably living in your neighborhoods as well as the parents of the other kids in your school who are really hurt by the rampant theft. This is the main point I am trying to make. Like so many other “victimless” crimes, there are very real victims here and I think it’s important for the perpetrators to realize who they are. Does Madonna’s daughter go hungry when you download her music? No, of course not. But what about the children of that guy who used to drive the forklift at the warehouse who got laid off last month? How are they doing? Not so good. Illegal downloading isn’t going to remove one link from 50 Cent’s gold chain, but it’s putting a hell of a hurting on the little people. Just stop and think about it for a while.

[Eric Cartman]

A few of the arguments I’ve heard in no particular order

Music should be free.
Well it’s a nice thought perhaps, but in reality it doesn’t work. I know that anyone with a half decent computer and a little bit of equipment can record music and distribute it over the web, but who is it really going to reach? If it’s an unknown artist who’s just starting out, they’ll never get off the ground this way. It takes money & time to discover new artists who are trying to break, and to get these artists out into the spotlight where people can see & hear them. Record companies put a lot of money into developing local artists. I’m forever hearing complaints about the sad state of music today. Well that’s not going to change if the money isn’t there to discover and develop new artists.

I’m not gonna pay $20.00 for a whole CD when all I want is one song.
Well this is a valid point. The music industry knows that downloading is here to stay and they have embraced that fact. They are putting a huge effort into getting viable legitimate downloading services up and running. Puretrax should be up and running in Canada soon. Since most people seem to reject a membership fee for online downloading, the new services will be offering songs for $1.00 each, so you can pick & choose what tracks you want. You will also get high speed, high quality downloads without the possibility of downloading viruses & trojans etc. (not to mention possible prosecution for illegal downloading & copyright infringement) Once these are established, will you use them and support the artists that you like (and incidentally new ones as yet undiscovered)?

The RIAA is a bunch of greedy pigs and they’re suing people for like a gazzilion dollars for only a couple of songs.
Well here in Canada, we don’t have anything to do with the RIAA lawsuits. We’re trying to go with an education process rather than enforcement. But the bottom line is…Suck it up! You knew it was wrong (whatever excuses you may offer), you did it anyway, so now deal with the consequences when you get caught.

Record companies are just a bunch of crooks.
The music industry does not have a sparkling clean history. There’s been a lot of controversy & scandal over the years and only a fool would pretend otherwise, but I see no need for me to pay for the sins of those who have gone before me. I’ve never been picked up in a solid gold limo filled with hookers & coke. I’ve never offered payola to a DJ to spin a track for me. I didn’t shoot Biggy or Tupac and frankly I don’t care who did. So why should I get screwed because of what other people did in the past?

Sorry for the lengthy rant, it’s just that this is an issue that hits very close to home for me. I’ve been working for the same record company for 14 years now. Some of you reading this haven’t even been alive that long. I freely admit that I would probably be downloading music if I worked in some other industry and didn’t think about it too closely. I’m just hoping that this may enlighten a couple of readers who will at least think twice about what they are doing and the people who are actually affected by their actions.

Peace.

[Crighton]

Personally my main problem is the nazi style law suits the RIAA is currently using. Granted downloading is wrong BUT the punishment should fit the crime. Going after the average joe who stole perhaps $1000 bucks worth of CDs for over a million in a law suit is just wrong. Thats more than enough to wreck familys and dreams for an entire persons life.


I personally have not bought a CD in years. I stopped buying CDs before napster. Why? because I always feel ripped off when I pay 15 bucks for 2 tracks. I'm far from alone. The industry should have addressed this issue years ago. Instead they refused and took to fighting the long pointless fight. Now finally after wasting tons of time and money they are starting to offer online track sales. They could have been a leader in online music sales and distribution if they had been an early adopter.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman
What I have a hard time dealing with, is the fact that the problems that our industry faces are directly related to theft and we can’t stop it.

Just stop and think about it for a while.

No offense, but do you think just MAYBE part of the downturn would be due to buying a CD is largely a luxury and we're in a bit of an economic slump? Or that despite the slump CD's went UP in price? Or maybe consumer backlash? On top of all that you're making the HUGE assumption that if a song wasn't available for download, that person would buy the CD. That is a horribly faulty assumption.


Yeah it sucks people are losing their jobs, but to base it on unsubstatiated claims is a bit off.

[InfinatyBPS]

I have only bought 1 CD in my life, which was a Rob Zombie CD. I am never going to pay $20 for something that I can just get a copy from my friend. Why? Mostly because I don't know if I'm gonna like the songs or not. I know through all the music I have downloaded, half of them I never listen to. If this were a p2p thing, I would have lost about $500 on stuff that I never listen to. I just like to download stuff to see if I like and want something, half of the time I don't. And the record companys aren't losing any money from me downloading because I wasn't going to buy a CD anyways, unless there is a CD that I realy like, alot, I won't buy it, now I will probably never buy another CD again, because I'm not going to waste $20 on something I don't know if I'm going to like or not. And you say that these p2p things are good, wow pay a dollar a song, well what if you don't like a song, are you going to get your money back? Probably not? What if you don't have a credit card, are you going to send $1 for every song you DL, then wait a week, then DL it :rolleyes: The truth is I doubt your company is feeling any economic effects of music downloading, if anything you are getting more people discovering your music and mabe even buying your albums. But it seems that most of the record companys don't care about the happiness of the consumer, weather or not they like what they bought, they just want their money.

[superdesk2007]

I think the lack of cd sales is because the quality of music has gone down.(My opinion)

[FutureMagOwner]

i agree. i buy cds because i know people are losing jobs(not just the little guy my uncle used to be somewhat wealthy and now he is really needing a job to keep his house, etc, and my aunt and him just had twins and he used to be a vice president or something of some manufacturing company) i buy a cd because i support the bands that the make the music and the ones who operate the forklifts.

just recently the cd shop next door to where i work went outta business because he couldnt afford to keep it open because of people downloading music now.

i make $40-50 a week. most of that goes to paintball. i still buy cds so dont give me this i cant afford a $20 cd because of the economy garbage the fact that people dont spend money on products is why the economy sucks now anyway.

[Eric Cartman]

Wow. Interesting.

Personally my main problem is the nazi style law suits the RIAA is currently using. Granted downloading is wrong BUT the punishment should fit the crime.
There's that nazi thing again. Can we all PLEASE stop trivializing that? Aside from that, I agree, the damages seem excessive to me.

The industry should have addressed this issue years ago.
Actually we've been trying. Really. There have been about three really big deals (that I have known about) that were going to be the big legitimate download services, but they all fell apart. And even now one of the biggest issues is trying to determine all of the people / companies that are due royalties on each and every track of an enormous catalogue, most of which was recorded in pre-digital days. The logistics of this alone is mind boggling. The industry was late yes, but serious efforts were afoot before most people seem to realize.


No offense, but do you think just MAYBE part of the downturn would be due to buying a CD is largely a luxury and we're in a bit of an economic slump?
Actually no. I'm with you, I wouldn't be buying CDs ifI was short of cash, but surprisingly enough (or maybe not) people really want to be entertained when times are tough. We've gone through some pretty steep economic downturns in my life in Canada, but the entertainment industry has been almost recession proof. The video sales illustrated this more than the audio sales.


On top of all that you're making the HUGE assumption that if a song wasn't available for download, that person would buy the CD. That is a horribly faulty assumption.
That would be true as an absolute, but I will say that there is definitely a percentage of sales that are lost I'll try to dig up some figures when I'm at work tomorrow, but our whole industry (music) is down considerably and this has been pretty much in line with the growth of online piracy.


The truth is I doubt your company is feeling any economic effects of music downloading, if anything you are getting more people discovering your music and mabe even buying your albums.
I assure you, I've seen the end of teh good times at my company for quite some time unless there is a drastic change in the near future. While I agree that the internet is a fantastic way to market music and make it available to a far wider range of people, i have to say that the illegal downloading is hurtng the industry and it's hurting the music. Who knows? According to most people this can't be stopped, so maybe we'll get to see just how bad it can really get. You think the quality of the music has gone down now? I think it'll be a big surprise how much music suffers along with the industry. Especially when new talent can't afford to get out there.

Good points all, thanks

[AngelBoy]

OK, so by downloading music, were hurting the little guys. My question is, if the artists cant do what they do without you, then why arent you cutting down on the money that they get from CDs? I mean, if we keep downloading music, and the people at the recording studios are losing their jobs, then wouldnt the artists start to hurt from that? And if that is true, then wouldnt they have to start buying $500,000 homes instead of $4million homes? Im not seeing any loss of anything on the artists side. Shouldnt you be talking to the artists also, and trying to get them to realize that unless they give a little back to the people that helped them, that they wont be able to continue to live the ways they live?

And I still dont see how the RIAA is losing at least $750 for EACH song someone downloads (thats the price that was on the news). How many songs are on the average cd? 13? That would mean that a cd would cost $9,000.... Isnt there something wrong with that? What about previewing music? How can we see what we like when the only way we can hear the music is by what they decide to play on the radio?

Maybe Im not understanding something, but I dont see how people can be losing their jobs and the artists still having ANYTHING that they could EVER POSSIBLY WANT.

[Vash02]

Thank you for enlightening us with the perspective of someone directly related to the recording industry. With that said i need to say a few things.

Firstly, if anything Kazaa has increased my buying of cd's. Usually i hear a song and then decide that i'd like the whole cd. Alot of the bands i like now i would have never even heard if it wasnt for kazaa.

Secondly, I couldnt agree more with most of the people here on AO. the RIAA is approaching this thing WAY wrong. Do you think they even realize what these law suits are doing to the KIDS they are trying to sue? Take for example the 19 year-old in college that just settled out of court with the RIAA for $12,000. Thats an insane amount, especially considering that all he did was design a file-sharing program at his college. Was it his fault that other idiots used it to share music?

Thirdly, I know that the industry is tryig to fight the piracy but it is a losing cause. The RIAA is trying to catch the kids sharing the music but now the P2P programs are making new things to help the customers avoid persecution. I know the new update of kazaa has some sort of encoding device that makes it nearly impossible for them to get your IP information. Seems to me the only really way to stop piracy is to stop the P2P providers and Kazaa already made it out of a law-suit that tried to do this.

Its sad that you are having a tought time at work but it aint better anywhere else. Your people are getting laid off but so is just about everyone else in our nation. Hopefully the next few years are more prosporous for us all.

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by Vash02

Secondly, I couldnt agree more with most of the people here on AO. the RIAA is approaching this thing WAY wrong. Do you think they even realize what these law suits are doing to the KIDS they are trying to sue? Take for example the 19 year-old in college that just settled out of court with the RIAA for $12,000. Thats an insane amount, especially considering that all he did was design a file-sharing program at his college. Was it his fault that other idiots used it to share music?

That kid didnt just get sued for making a search engine, he was just one of the first that got sued for the illegal MP3s he had. And $12,000 would be considered a very low amount compared to some of the others that are in the millions.

[Vash02]

Millions...that number just makes me angry. Screw the RIAA.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by AngelBoy
And I still dont see how the RIAA is losing at least $750 for EACH song someone downloads (thats the price that was on the news). How many songs are on the average cd? 13? That would mean that a cd would cost $9,000.... Isnt there something wrong with that? What about previewing music? How can we see what we like when the only way we can hear the music is by what they decide to play on the radio?

i think you mis-interpreted that statement. lets say i put up a tool song for download. 4-5 or more people download it, then those people have people that download it, and so on and so forth and thats where you get your 750 a song or more.

[Eric Cartman]

My question is, if the artists cant do what they do without you, then why arent you cutting down on the money that they get from CDs?
Actually the artists get their money from a number of different ways. They may sign a contract worth X amount of dollars to produce Y amount of albums in a given time period. They also get royalties paid to them each time their tracks are played on the radio. The amount of money that they get from each CD is relatively small for the most part. A lot of the cost of a CD comes from having the artwork designed, getting the graphics printed, having the whole thing produced and assembled and then distributed. Each sticker placed on teh packaging, each extra panel of the folder and every extra colour used in the graphics raises the cost of production. In the end, there's not really much that can be cut from there. I know it's hard to feel sorry for established artists (and overpaid athletes). Like I said, It's the litle guys who are bearing the brunt of this.



Firstly, if anything Kazaa has increased my buying of cd's.

I've heard this before. I wish it was true of more people, but unfortunately I believe that you and those like you are in the minority. If everyone just sampled music online and then purchased what they liked, I don't think we'd have a problem at all. And I agree that I believe that the RIAA suits are out of hand, but I think they are trying to prove a point. They're just being unreasonable about it. I still figuer that if you get busted, you should suck it up and deal with it though. Just because RIAA's out of line doesn't excuse the theft. The new Kazaa might be harder to get around as far as tracking users down, but they will get around it... then Kazaa will be improved again, and on it will go...



i think you mis-interpreted that statement. lets say i put up a tool song for download. 4-5 or more people download it, then those people have people that download it, and so on and so forth and thats where you get your 750 a song or more.

Exactly. (Tool rocks! Maynard scares me a bit though!)

All I'm saying is that you should support what you like and thereby support the people who are honestly out there trying to bring good music out into the world. Believe it or not, there are still a lot of people in the industry like that, although it's easy to lose sight of that fact.

Again, thanks for the responses.

Cheers.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman
I've heard this before. I wish it was true of more people, but unfortunately I believe that you and those like you are in the minority. If everyone just sampled music online and then purchased what they liked, I don't think we'd have a problem at all. And I agree that I believe that the RIAA suits are out of hand, but I think they are trying to prove a point. They're just being unreasonable about it.


Another thing to note is that this is the same argument the music industry used against FM radio. That it would "destroy" the industry and must be stopped.

[AngelBoy]

And what if your not putting the music you have up for downloading? How does that equal 750$?

[Eric Cartman]

Another thing to note is that this is the same argument the music industry used against FM radio. That it would "destroy" the industry and must be stopped.
Yes and the same was said about blank cassettes. Downloading is very different though as there is usaully a much better quality of recording available. Anything taped from the radio or those cassettes that you used to "high speed dub" back in the day sounded pretty much like crap. You also had to know someone who had the original to make a copy from it. If you copied from a copy, it just got worse with each generation. Digital files offer much better quality and the internet makes them available to anyone anywhere as long as they have an internet connection, so that makes it much more of a threat.


And what if your not putting the music you have up for downloading? How does that equal 750$?

As far as I'm concerned, it doesn't. But people know that this is what's happening. If they still go ahead and take the risk, they shouldn't complain when they get busted.

People haven't had too much to say about legitimate legal downloading. If Legitimate download services get up and running, will any of you consider using them?

I know people are ticked off at RIAA, but how would you feel about having your computer screwed up by a virus that you downlaoded from Kazaa etc.? I doubt that any of the big record companies would go this route, but would you be outraged, or would you say "well that sucks, but I knew the risk."

Just curious.

[AngelBoy]

Then what would they do to someone who just downloads them and doesnt share them?

And I would use a legal way of downloading songs, as long as it is just as easy to get them as it is to get them off Kazaa. Im not gonna spend an hour just to download one song.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman
People haven't had too much to say about legitimate legal downloading. If Legitimate download services get up and running, will any of you consider using them?

I know people are ticked off at RIAA, but how would you feel about having your computer screwed up by a virus that you downlaoded from Kazaa etc.? I doubt that any of the big record companies would go this route, but would yoyu be outrged, or would you say "well that sucks, but I knew the risk."

Just curious.

Well, actually I don't download illegal MP3's. But if there were a reasonably priced, legit service, I'd check it out. But it'd have to be user friendly. I'd have to be able to download it quickly, pay quickly and be able to transfer the purchased mp3 to any of my computers or mp3 devices without any issues.

If I download a song it's because I have purchased the use of it on CD. If a company destroyed my computer I would press a civil suit and probably try to arrange it as a class action.

In fact the RIAA already owes me money. I've had at LEAST 50 cds that have become too scratched or broken to work properly. So figure 50 cds, 12 songs each, 750 per song....
the RIAA owes me around 450K for loss of use.

[Eric Cartman]

Then what would they do to someone who just downloads them and doesnt share them?
Good question. I'm not sure about this, but I think they're going after the people who do make the copyrighted material available for download, not so much the people who downlaod it. Don't quote me on that though. As I said before, we here in Canada have nothng to do with the RIAA suits. We've got CRIA up here and I doubt they've got the resources to start the kind of legal campaign that RIAA has.



But if there were a reasonably priced, legit service, I'd check it out. But it'd have to be user friendly. I'd have to be able to download it quickly, pay quickly and be able to transfer the purchased mp3 to any of my computers or mp3 devices without any issues

I completely agree. That is most definitely what the industry is aiming for. I haven't spoken with anyone who has used the new apple service, but I understand it's pretty good. The industry understands very well that they have to do this right or people will just ignore it and continue the piracy.


In fact the RIAA already owes me money. I've had at LEAST 50 cds that have become too scratched or broken to work properly. So figure 50 cds, 12 songs each, 750 per song....

Stop using them as beer coasters bud! LOL. Good luck with your lawsuit! I'm sure we'll all be interested to hear how it turns out:D
As far as destroying your computer goes, it would be just as challenging to track down where the virus came from as it is to track down everyone who downloads. It would probably not even be from anyone in the industry, as I'm sure that they know they would be leaving themselves open to way too much legal action, but what about people who are just general **** disturbers planting viruses just for the fun of it?

[gamarada717]

I download to see if the cd is any good. There are only about 10 cds that I care for really. I have those cds, because I can listen to them nonstop. There isn't a single system of a down song that I don't enjoy. Same with AFI, All American Rejects, and Presidents of the USA. These are what I call perfect cds. Bands and singers are the ones who started this problem. They think that, "If I make one awesome song, they'll buy my cd. The rest of the songs just fill up the cd." Eventually, people learned that they are doing this. I only stay faithful to bands that I enjoy. I download the hit songs because I dont want to have to waste my time with other songs. The RIAA are insane. These charges are crazy. They're are ruining peoples lives probably. It's pointless anyways...you can't stop things on the internet. No matter what, there will always be music sharing.

[FutureMagOwner]

meh thats why i like tool i could listen to any of their cds in their entirety if the average song wasnt 10 minutes long lol. o and manyard is scary sometimes lol(like their music videos..... the some songs make sense and a couple only sorta then i watch the music video and im like what on earth.....)


i could see myself using a service like that my brother however i dont think he would because hes a preppy turd burglar and likes rap and rock and country and all these stupid non-sensible neo-moronic artists and downloads like 500 songs.

the only time i use kazaa lite is for a song like liam lynch's song united states of whatever and a pay per song download service would rock. i would like to see it like this... you make an account with your credit card or mothers or whatever and everytime you download a song you have to input a password(for people like my brother so my mom can stop him from downloading 80000000000000000 songs) and keep a record of what you download so you can download it again in case you delete it or something(which i do alot i listen to a song for a week get tired of it delete it then redownload it again a month later or so). also over time as you download songs you get free downloads or if they noticed you download alot of x bands CD they will mail you a free copy of their newest cd or let you download it for free.

the thing is you cant charge too much for per a song like a dollar is too much in my opinion(which on a cd now is about $2 a song or so on average)

[Duke Henry]

I can't sit here and argue why sales are down across the country, or across the continent since there have been no sociological/economic studies that have been done that explore WHY, instead of just chalking it up to file sharing. However, I can say why I rarely purchase CD's, and it is mighty simple: most albums that are released aren't worth buying.

Now, I will admit that I did recently (in the past 5 months) buy 4 CD's. 1 was from Finger Eleven, whom I really enjoy listening to and so I didn't NEED to download their songs to convince myself to buy their album. I bought it because of their previous track record and was reinforced when I was able to get the album a week before release, and I enjoyed listening to it.

Another CD that I purchased was the new 3 Doors Down CD. Now, I wasn't going to buy this album since I am not a huge 3DD fan. However, after downloading the album - I grew to like it and went out and bought it.

The 3rd CD was by Hoobastank, a band that I only heard one song from (you know, the Mountain Dew song - Crawling in the Dark) - and it was awesome! Went out and bought it within days.

The 4th CD, well - I really can't remember what CD it was but again I downloaded it and then purchased it after. It enabled me to get 4 good buys.

Now, previous albums I bought (years ago before filesharing was popular, i.e. pre-Napster): over 80% were terrible buys. Why? Because the album had 1 good song, and the rest was crap. I remember buying an album from Better than Ezra (yes, this was a long time ago), and it was TERRIBLE. I ended up selling it to a friend for a slurpee.

If the record industry wants to cut costs, they should consider cutting back on the MILLIONS they spend on promoting bands that are already OVER-THE-TOP popular, and spend a little more on the bands that get no coverage. Of course, this is a upper management decision, and I doubt will ever change, unless the record industry continues to take huge hits.

Anyway, my point is this: if you can get the record industry to allow for people to sample songs BEFORE paying the buck to have a copy on their own machine, I believe they could succeed. I know I would gladly pay a buck to get a song without having to drive and pick up a CD. However, if you can download the song for a buck, what is stopping you from sharing this downloaded file with others?

[AngelBoy]

Originally posted by Duke Henry
I ended up selling it to a friend for a slurpee.

Thats funny, lol.


But thanks for sharing with us Eric Cartman, its nice to hear the other point of view on this.

[RRfireblade]

That's all way to much to read....

My feeling,
Sorry but that's the future of ALL info so get ready.Eventually all data,music,info and what ever will be a direct download(PC or other), either way people in the "record business" are on a short rope.How short? I don't know,but shorter than I'm on at my job.:D

Jay.

[Duke Henry]

Originally posted by AngelBoy


Thats funny, lol.


I should note that he originally tried to trade me for a small, crappy slurpee. I haggled him up to an extra large - keep the cup for another refill size!

[Star_Base_CGI]

Well at least you have a nice, job, house, kids, car, wife, and healthcare.

Dont belive everything your employeer tells you. Im sure he gets a nice bonus.

Why do CDs cost more than tapes?

A CD only costs 25 cents?

WHy do they sell for $20. Oh well were not allowed to have music. If we want music we should go buy it.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Why do CDs cost more than tapes?

A CD only costs 25 cents?

WHy do they sell for $20. Oh well were not allowed to have music. If we want music we should go buy it.


cds are harder to produce

the 25 cent or whatever they say is the stupidest thing going around i have ever heard. that cd also has a case you have to pay the muscian, the artist who makes the cover, you have to cover all the costs to get that cd to a store then the store has to make a profit then there are taxes.

yes his boss probably makes more then him..... name ANY business on this size where the boss doesnt make more the the subordinate. fact is you need people to manage the workers and if you cant sell enough stuff you get less workers because it takes the same amount of people to manage.

[Vegeta]

Well I could go on for hours about media sharing and the benifits to humanity and technology that it could behold.... but I wont...

What I will say is.. I have been downloading (not realy sharing, I don't allow uploads on my mahcine becasue of tight bandwidth... I'm greedy) songs for years now... and I do not buy any fewer CD's now than I used to.

I mainly download HARD TO FIND mp3's... things like old jazz songs by artists I like, and comedy sketches, and soundtrack stuff, songs and audio that isn't availible in normal stores.....

I don't think I am really ripping anyone off here. And does the RIAA control all CD media? there are other recording labels.. what If I download only non-RIAA liscensed music? they can't do anything to me then.

I really like the new ideas like Apple's iTunes... problem is they don't have the exotic and hard to find songs like I want. And I'm guessing that those services offer pretty high bitrate files (320kbps ~ CD quality...) but what if I am on 56k and want lower bitrates? do they charge less money for lower bitrate? do they even have lower bitrates? my point exactly. I normally DL 196kbps mp3's. They are usually fitting to my narrowband connection. But I will not signup for a service that only offers a limited number of songs and only at a set bitrate... that will take me hours to DL one song.


And popular artists sell millions of copies per CD. THe CD costs on average 20$. Let's break that 20$ down:

$.30 ~ CD and the image on the CD.
$.80 ~ the jewel case
$1.00 ~ the booklet and all printing in the jewel case
__________

that is only $2.10. estimeted. It could be 3$ even.. but hte fact is there is still $17 for profit....

sure they need money for recording costs, but that will be payed off with the first 50,000 copies sold. The rest is pretty much profit. They could drop the price by 5-8$ and still make plenty of profit.

My favorite group is the Dave Matthews Band. I have BOUGHT all of their albums. I haev also downloaded a few of their hard to find, not on CD recordings. I will pay $20 for one of their CD's. But that is only because I will KNOW that I will like every single song on there.

Crap artists today may release a CD that only has 1 or 2 songs you really even know or like on them. That is why subscribtion download serivces should come in. Download one or two songs from the album you like for 80 cents a peice and there you go.

I would easily pay 80 cents for a good mp3. I would not want the file in some sort of restriced play format though. I bought it, I want to be able to play it on whatever I want. If I DL a DMB song, i want to be able to put it on a DMB CD-R with my other DMB DLed songs.. and I also want to be able to put it on another mix CD.. etc... nrestrictions people will not go for.


That is my thinking.

[Python14]

I buy CDs because I want to support the bands and all the people who make it possible for me to listen to them any time I want.

I used to download music, but once it sunk in, I realized I was doing nothing more than copying someones art, and enjoying it for free, leaving the artist with his original art, and nothing to show for it.

I don't care if I only like one song on a CD, it's worth the $20 to me.

Music industry is just that, industry. Industry runs on money. If you want to use your "they already have money" arguement, go ahead. That arguement holds as much water as a fishing net.

[Vash02]

The thing that pisses me off is that some of those artists have 16 cars and a 6 million dollar house with a tennis court and 35 rooms. Why do they deserve all that money when all they do is sing and occasionaly tour? If they knew what a real job payed then they would stop moaning about getting money from their cd's.

Same with sports stars. Way overpayed for playing a game. Why dont i get played for playing paintball?!

[InfinatyBPS]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman

People haven't had too much to say about legitimate legal downloading. If Legitimate download services get up and running, will any of you consider using them?



You seemed to ignore my views on legit dling services...

My view is, unless they let your hear the whole song first, and they have pretty much any song you can find on Kazza(I have found tons of rare songs on Kazaa that I couldn't get anywhere else) and songs are reasonably prices($.25 seems fair) and there is a way you can buy without a credit or debit card, mabe like have a credit system, send in $10, and you get 40 downloads worth of credit, then after you download 40, you gotta send in more money. Otherwise I wouldn't use it. I have recently aquired a copy of the new white stripes CD from a friend, and I was thinking about buying this CD(thats pretty rare with me) but after hearing it there are only like 4 good songs out of it that I actualy like, so I'm glad I didn't buy it.

[MagMan5446]

Originally posted by Vash02

Same with sports stars. Way overpayed for playing a game.



Entirely different thing. They aren't selling anything but tickets. What they're paid is up to the owner.

[Pokaris]

Complaining about some one abusing the Recording industry is like complaining about some abusing Hitler. They lost a price fixing lawsuit. They had to pay a settlement because they were found guilty. Has the price of CDs dropped? Oh no, they continue to do what they feel like because apparently its the only industry in the country that would rather be in a courtroom than making money.

Like was stated earlier when you can pay a REASONABLE fee like a quarter to download a song it might be worth doing. If they only have to produce one digital copy it there shouldnt be some atrocious production cost, but the RIAA always finds someway to tack something on dont they?

Finally you call this theft. If I steal your car do you still have it?

[FutureMagOwner]

i have a question for all you people who download music. do you also get free cable(via black box, a spliter, whatever)? do you steal internet access? do you hack other computers to get credit card info? most of you will say no to all of these but guess what its the same basic thing and is illegal. hey he still has cable/internet and now i get it for free whats the harm? hey he still has his credit card why would he care if i use it to buy things?

its funny how you people keep saying cds cost too much because a it costs blah blah to do make this part of the package and this much to make that part but you never think about the fact that there is the people you have to pay to: 1. make the cds 2. manage the people that make the cds 3. the ones who deliver the cds 4. the ones who do press related things 5. the stores themselves have to make a profit and 6 and 7. the owners of the companies and the artists themselves.

#7 is the smallest cost out of all of that because most of the time millions of cds are sold and that pays off the muscian in the first week depending on the cds popularity. and over time the cd price starts to go down as it becomes less popular(or same popularity just most people have it) which covers 1-5 and somewhat #6. the highest cost comes from #'s 2-5 so by cutting costs on cds it hurts them not the muscians not the big wigs and they certainly arent going to make less money then it costs for the materials of the cd itself. so when you start stealing music guess what happens? the #2-4's lose their jobs #5 stores go outta business however #6 will make the same amount of money because hes the one in control and #7 will because they will always make that ammount of money or else they will goto another company that will give it to them.

[Eric Cartman]

Well at least you have a nice, job, house, kids, car, wife, and healthcare.
Starbase, can you please give me directions to my house? I'm gettin' the hell outr of my apartment and I'm not paying any more rent if i've got a house. Is my wife hot? I sure hope so.:D I also hope my kids aren't brats. The health care and the job I knew about, but the rest is news to me!


$.30 ~ CD and the image on the CD.
$.80 ~ the jewel case
$1.00 ~ the booklet and all printing in the jewel case


Wow are you serious? Who's doing this stuff this cheaply? We'll use them if those are the prices! But seriously, you're not too far off on the cd & jewel box, but the graphics are getting more expensive every day. As soon as you start adding in pantone colours and foil or vinly, the packaging costs go way up, and everyone seems to want to move to fancier packaging (no matter how much of a pain in the *** it is. Don't forget that we sell the Cd at a little above cost to s sub distributor. They then mark the Cd up and sell it to a retailer who then marks it up and sells it to you. These mark ups are where most of the cost of the CD comes from. Knowing this definitely makes downloading more attractive, just do it legitimatley:)


because hes a preppy turd burglar

LOL!



Complaining about some one abusing the Recording industry is like complaining about some abusing Hitler.

Yes you're correct. The record industry is exactly like Hitler. They have the blood of hundreds of thousands on their hands.:rolleyes: I've said it before, cut out the bloody Nazi references and grow the hell up!!! Go rent Schindler's list and watch the whole thing very closely. Then thank whatever God you may believe in that you never had to face anything like that. I have absolutely no idea why the mods don't come down on this nonsense. Damn that's offensive!

Many of you have made remarks about being able to sample tracks before paying for them./ This seems perfectly reasonable and I believe that this will be provided with the new service as well as different speed downloads and different formats. As far as payment methods go, I imagine it will be done with credit cards and paypal etc. I would also like to see a credit type of payment method as mentioned by InfinatyBPS.

As far as downloading rare or hard to find tracks goes, I don't think that the sharing of these tracks is a big deal. Most of these tracks have been digitized by individuals rather than companies and they don't amount to very much. What's hurting us is the mainstream stuff that isn't selling because it's been stolen (yes Pokaris, it is theft, that's what copyrights are all about. It's not the same as auto theft, but it is theft. You can bet your *** that if you made an exact copy of the mustang and started selling them or even giving them away, Ford would be on you like white on rice).

Again, thanks for the comments!

[Eric Cartman]

FutureMagOwner, beautiful last post, I couldn't have said it better.

Peace.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman

What's hurting us is the mainstream stuff that isn't selling because it's been stolen (yes Pokaris, it is theft, that's what copyrights are all about. It's not the same as auto theft, but it is theft. You can bet your *** that if you made an exact copy of the mustang and started selling them or even giving them away, Ford would be on you like white on rice).

Again, thanks for the comments!


Actually copyright or trademark violation is different then theft. In your scenario Ford couldn't sue for theft.

[AngelBoy]

OK, now were all just repeating stuff. So from all the posts Ive about determined that if there is a service that is cheap, flexible, and has millions of songs, then most people will use it.

Or, heres another way, make cds in tiny cases with no book and no real fancy cd graphics. If people are complaining about the price of cds, and your saying that the main cost is the graphics and the books/cases (all the non-music stuff), then cut all that crap out and just give us the music. We buy cds for MUSIC, not graphics. The way it is now anyways is most people have a blank cd with the bands name written on there with a Sharpie, so just start putting out cds like that.

There are so many better ways of going about getting what money they deserve (and yes, they do deserve it) than sueing everybody.

[Eric Cartman]

Angelboy, I'd like nothing better than to offer a no frills type of package like you mentioned, unfortunately there is an attitude (which I feel is incorrect) that fancy packaging will be attractive to consumers. This way, if you download, you don't get the luxury of all of the fancy little pictures and other special packaging (which frequently means that the things won't fit properly in your CD racks). I strongly disagree with this. I hate all of the extra packaging and stickers and I know that this just drives up the price. I hope that the industry realizes this soon, but I'm not holding my breath.


Actually copyright or trademark violation is different then theft. In your scenario Ford couldn't sue for theft.
You're absolutely correct, it would be copyright enfringement not theft, but copyright infringement is basically stealing someone else's idea, or an idea that someone else owns the rights to. All in all I think the concept is the same. If you take or make copies of something that doesn't belong to you, I'll call it theft. Others will of course disagree, as is their right.


OK, now were all just repeating stuff.

True enough. Probably time to let this die now.

[Pokaris]

As the music insider I'd like you to defend why the RIAA has lost a price fixing lawsuit if they are so legit and being taking advantage of by these nasty downloaders as you would lead us to believe. The court system found them guilty of taking extra money out of my pocket for no reason and you want me to feel guilty for returning the favor, sorry I'm gonna treat you like you treat me.


I think you need to wake up and realize that you're involved in an industry that is more than willing to sacrifice its own to put dollars in the pockets of those at the top. At this point they're just trying to end up in court.

[Eric Cartman]

Pokaris, my apologies for the tone of my earlier post. The Nazi thing just really gets me going.

I have no defense for the RIAA. As I've said, we have nothing to do with them.


Well here in Canada, we don’t have anything to do with the RIAA lawsuits. We’re trying to go with an education process rather than enforcement.


Just because RIAA's out of line doesn't excuse the theft.


As I said before, we here in Canada have nothng to do with the RIAA suits. We've got CRIA up here and I doubt they've got the resources to start the kind of legal campaign that RIAA has.

And as for the industry...


The music industry does not have a sparkling clean history. There’s been a lot of controversy & scandal over the years and only a fool would pretend otherwise, but I see no need for me to pay for the sins of those who have gone before me. I’ve never been picked up in a solid gold limo filled with hookers & coke. I’ve never offered payola to a DJ to spin a track for me. I didn’t shoot Biggy or Tupac and frankly I don’t care who did. So why should I get screwed because of what other people did in the past?

That's the last I have to say.

Peace.

[Pokaris]

Again you call it theft. Amazing how fast the industry brain washed you all to do that. If I get punched by someone can I start claiming they murdered me? That's exactly what you're doing, taking one crime and calling it something harsher to make it sound worse.

If you join the mob you're probably gonna end up dealing with mobsters. If you participate in an industry that screws people, you're probably gonna get screwed. Find a new line of work if you're unhappy with the one you're in.

Peace

[FutureMagOwner]

if you read what i had said youd realize that it is stealing. its the same thing as stealing cable, or internet access, or getting someones credit card number and using it

[Pokaris]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
if you read what i had said youd realize that it is stealing. its the same thing as stealing cable, or internet access, or getting someones credit card number and using it

Sorry, but NO. See I'm gonna go with what the law says, versus what some guy on the internet forum says.

If you care to test this theory. I say the speed limit in town is now 120 mph. Go test that out and let me know how it works out for ya.

[FutureMagOwner]

hmm how is it not stealing? explain it to me. since when is taking a product without paying for it not stealing? the fact is the music industry is just like every other industry they try to make a profit yet when it comes to music omg i cant believe that they want to make money how rude i guess ill just steal it.


the same applies to downloading programs such as photoshop its still illegal so dont try and say it isnt.

[Star_Base_CGI]

You know I worked in the grocery industy so perhaps my experience can be related.

The grocery industry claims it doesnt make any money. Yet they over mark prices as the see fit, %200 or %400. Money comes in. Millions of dollars weekley and people still need to eat food. The Managers alllll get FAT BONUSES. The only people that dont make money are the part time employees which get raped by the unions. SO its not a far stretch to tell the employees their poor and pay them crap. When in fact a manager makes $50,000 - $100,000 a year and the District managers and the CEOs probably make $250,000 or $500,000 a year.

The fact is that Managment does little to help in most industries except paintball and they make all the money.

So rather than point the finger at all of us. Point it at your boss.

[RiddalinJunkie08]

Originally posted by AngelBoy


That kid didnt just get sued for making a search engine, he was just one of the first that got sued for the illegal MP3s he had. And $12,000 would be considered a very low amount compared to some of the others that are in the millions.
but that $12,000 was all he had. I understand that he was taking a risk, but that was all the money he had.
just my 2 cents
-mark-

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
hmm how is it not stealing? explain it to me. since when is taking a product without paying for it not stealing? the fact is the music industry is just like every other industry they try to make a profit yet when it comes to music omg i cant believe that they want to make money how rude i guess ill just steal it.


the same applies to downloading programs such as photoshop its still illegal so dont try and say it isnt.


Why don't you read the laws on theft and then read the laws on copyright violation and get back to us?

Let me break it down for you.

THEFT: Walking into a store, finding a video of super bowl 20. Grabbing it and running out.

COPYRIGHT VIOLATION: Recording the game on your VCR, and watching it at a party later. Or recording an episode of the simpsons and making a copy of it for a friend who missed the episode.


The fact is the music industry ISN'T the same as other industries. They use illegal pricing schemes. After you're done reading about the applicable laws, pick up a book on price fixing and monopolies.

[FutureMagOwner]

i know its not under the same laws for obvious reason but like it has been said its stealing thoughts and ideas which does fall under copyright laws.

"COPYRIGHT VIOLATION: Recording the game on your VCR, and watching it at a party later. Or recording an episode of the simpsons and making a copy of it for a friend who missed the episode."


also if i recall thats not a violation but taping it and selling it is where it becomes a violation in that particular case with televised events)

[ShooterJM]

Nope. Under the Fair use clause archives can only be made for personal use.

However, in the first example the game is being rebroadcast without express written consent of the NFL to a group of people. And in the second example there is unauthorized duplication and distribution.

Profit or charging for copies is irrelevent.

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
Nope. Under the Fair use clause archives can only be made for personal use.

However, in the first example the game is being rebroadcast without express written consent of the NFL to a group of people. And in the second example there is unauthorized duplication and distribution.

Profit or charging for copies is irrelevent.


ok i wasnt sure on that because of the redistibution thing they say during the televised event it sounded like it only applied if you tried to make money or use it to take away money from the nfl or otherwise.

[ShooterJM]

nah, it's pretty complex. Like you can broadcast quotations and stuff or copies for classroom teaching, but you're only allowed to keep the copy for 45 days. Lots of weird little quirks.

[FutureMagOwner]

yeah i knew it was very complex but o well.


yeah i think you guys are just misintrepting what i was saying when i said stealing i wasnt refering legally but more of what the act is basically.

[ShooterJM]

No, I know what you're saying I just don't agree with it.

See the music industry is trying to say that music is both a tangible object AND a copyright.

If you buy a CD they view it as buying a tangible object, but not "really' purchasing a usage license. If you download an MP3, they view you as violating copyright usage.

HOWEVER, if the physical CD you purchased is destroyed, they refuse to allow you to get another one free or download the MP3's that you are legally entitled to. They require you to purchase yet another license. That is my problem. They get to pick one, not both. You're either selling a product or copyright usage, not both. Same thing with the movie industry.

[InfinatyBPS]

Originally posted by FutureMagOwner
hmm how is it not stealing? explain it to me. since when is taking a product without paying for it not stealing? the fact is the music industry is just like every other industry they try to make a profit yet when it comes to music omg i cant believe that they want to make money how rude i guess ill just steal it.


the same applies to downloading programs such as photoshop its still illegal so dont try and say it isnt.

The only time I feel stealing is bad is when someone is going to feel the effects, I can honestly say that nobody will ever feel the effects of my downloading because I wouldn't have bought 99% of the stuff I downloaded. So what are they losing from my downloading? Nothing. There is no actual solid object that I'm "stealing", so there is no loss for them. If I download photoshop(which you know most people have, 90% of the people on here didn't pay nearly $1000 for PS)what are they losing? I would have never bought it, they aren't losing anything from me... So I don't think its theft. Its like saying growing your own fruit and vegitables is like stealing from the store, and they are going to go out of buissiness for it:rolleyes:

[FutureMagOwner]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
HOWEVER, if the physical CD you purchased is destroyed, they refuse to allow you to get another one free or download the MP3's that you are legally entitled to. They require you to purchase yet another license. That is my problem. They get to pick one, not both. You're either selling a product or copyright usage, not both. Same thing with the movie industry.



im refering to the people who never bought the cd in the first place and just download it.


thats the thing with a downloading service you can download the same song as many times as you want and only pay once.


also growing plants is something else you cant copyright nature for one thing :)


i do agree with you guys in partiality but when its people that can easily purchase a cd but are just trying to save a buck is the people i have a problem with.

what i was seeing with myself is that i had every sublime song and tool song downloaded so i went out and bought the cds anyways because i like them enough. i still download things like rage against the machine cds and if there are enough songs on a cd that i like ill go out and by the cd. i also have songs where i would only listen to 2 songs at the most so i never buy the cd(i would use a downloading service if there was a good service) but what i have a problem with is people who download all of linkin park cds or blink 182(just an example of a preppy like my brother) and will never buy the cd(well now that i think about i hope linkin park and blink 182 die so i wouldnt mind if they didnt lol)

[Bloencustoms]

After reading this thread in it's entirety, here are my thoughts. I have never downloaded music, or movies. I haven't bought a CD in over a year. The price is the main thing that stops me. I understand that when any industry suffers, the "emloyees" are the ones to take the hit. Belive me, I'm an employee myself. I definitely think that everyone is entitled to make a profit from their chosen business. I also think that a lot of people (not just celebrities) get paid disproportionately large salaries for the work they do. Take a surgeon, for example. They make a lot of money for what they do. The usual argument is "They spent years in school and are responsible for people's lives". Well, if they kill someone, insurance pays for it. An auto mechanic makes way less than a surgeon, and might not have spent years in college, but their knowledge in their field of expertise is no less extensive, and a faulty car repair could just as easily result in death. A mechanic might not be able to stitch a wound, but a surgeon is not likely to be able to replace a head gasket. People are not paid fairly.

That said, I'd like to address the radio issue. Someone said earlier that the recordings from FM radio were of poor quality. That's true, due to the media available at the time. Radio stations aren't playing tapes and records anymore, and you could just as easily record songs from the radio onto CD. And it won't degrade like copies of copies of tapes will. I also believe that any music played over the radio is already free. I've already listened to it. You aren't selling me anything I can't get by turning on the radio.
So the question is, why do people still buy CD's at all? Perhaps the fancy package has something to do with it. As far as packing and distributing, blank CD's are packed and distributed with jewel cases and labels for much less than $20 each. The media itself is cheap. When the music industry's bigwigs can decide that it's ok for them to make a little less money for all of their "hard work" (Hobnobbing at swanky parties), and drop the price of recorded music, people will buy more of it. Ten people buying a song at $1 yields the same profit as twenty people buying it at 50 cents.

As for online music purchasing, how many people would pay a monthly fee of say $30, and download all the music they want? If all the people who are downloading now bought one or two cd's a month, it would come pretty close. A survey would be needed to find out how much money people spend per month on music, and work it from there.
One of the issues mentioned was the closure of record stores. Online music purchases will do them in anyway, be it downloads, or CD's shipped in the mail.

Just a few thoughts from someone "getting by" watching other people get rich.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Bloencustoms
People are not paid fairly.

A quick note on this. Another reason is out of say 1000 people, there will only be maybe 10 people who have the intelligence and ability to be a surgeon. There's probably 800 or so who can learn to be a mechanic or a janitor or something. It's a question of supply and demand.

[845]

When good paint is down to $20 a case I will be able to afford CDs.

[rdb123]

Originally posted by Eric Cartman
...There’s been a lot of controversy & scandal over the years ...

Hate to bring this one back from the dead, but I found this post informative for some paper im working on. COuld someone please elaborate on the scandals and controversies?

Thanks