Angel 4 press release on paintball.com...warning typical marketing hype...

[aaron_mag]

Paintball.com has a press release by WDP for the Angel 4. Supposedly the fastest and most accurate marker ever (magically fires at a flatter trajectory than other markers firing at the same fps :)).

Anyway here is the link. Good looking marker...

http://paintball.com/features/story.cfm?placementID=2233&aid=1676&clickon=DB

[scud2519]

looks like a speed with different milling and a lcd display

[Oregon_pb_]

Prol $1300+ and is actually the same as any other marker. The fact that they mention its the world best at everything... lol



How can it feed and shoot 31 balls per second???
:rolleyes: (edit: it was 31 bps not 33. lol)

[Aliens-8-MyDad]

The Angel 4 will cycle (that’s feed and fire) 31 balls per second. There is no other paintball marker on earth that can match this.

um, did they forget about retro mags?

[Rebel46_99]

Here's a letter I sent to WDP and the response I got back....

Re: Angel 4 Claims

Gentlemen...

With all due respect, your claims, as well as those of any company making the same, I realize are nothing more than advertsing hype.

First..... ANY knowledgeable paintball person will know that there is no loader on the market that can keep up with 31 bps, not even the vaunted HALO B. Besides the fact that it is a physical impossibility for the human hand to attain and sustain that rate of fire.

Second.... Accuracy comes from paint to barrel match, nothing more. But then, you know that.

Third..... No amount of Quantum Theory Physics for ANY marker, be it Angel, AutoCocker, Spyder or AutoMag to name a few, will change the trajectory or distance traveled of a paintball being fired at the tournament velocity of 300 fps. To make such claims is an insult to any intelligent person.

Sincerely,

D

And the response was..............................

?

All the best,

Frazer,

WDP Ltd,
221 Mount Street,
Nechells,
Birmingham,
B75QT,
England.
+44 (0)121 3282228

[magman007]

actually, you forgot to realize, that consistency is what really gets you accurate.... paint to barrel match, makes very little difference, where it does make a difference, is if the balls are all consistently the same shape, in which ever bore barrle you have

[lamby]

Aliens-8-my dad------------


Sure, a RetroMag shooting 31bps... RIIIIGHT. I would love to see a manual marker acheive this. Or even an e-marker in semi only mode.

Just for a quick reference there are only 30 pictures per second that make up a tv picture, Movies run at 24 pictures a second, the human eye can only see between about 20 to 25 different "scenes" per second. Basicly, you are saying you can pull a manual triggered marker faster than the eye can see.. UH..COUGH BS

I know you aint talking about the emags (capped at 16bps via a programmed delay)or the x-mags for that matter (capped at 24bps the same way)

the ONLY way to shoot 30+ bps is a full auto circuit card and marker/ valve that can cycle and recharge that fast (Not including that it has to load a ball).

31 times a second is equal to 32ms that is NOT alot of time to cycle a gun, much less load a ball.

And the manual RTs CAN NOT DO IT!!!!!!

[aaron_mag]

I didn't want to start a letter writing campaign to WDP!!!:) I'm sure it really is a nice marker. All press releases by a company need to be taken with a grain of salt. Still they are doing things like pushing for even greater weight reductions, etc.

Competition like this will only help players in the end. I just posted the link for info not to start a debate on if the retromag is the fastest marker in the world. :D

[lamby]

aaron,

I am sorry, I guess that was sorta a hijack. did not mean it though. The "4" looks sweet, and if it is decently priced will sell better than any other high end marker out at the time (in my opinion based on angels past market record)

Thanks for posting the info.

[Muzikman]

Umm...Manual RT's can do it. Is it tournament legal? no...but it has been done. Do a search for the butterfingers thread.

[FreshmanBob]

"The Angel 4 will cycle (that’s feed and fire) 31 balls per second. There is no other paintball marker on earth that can match this"


And yet...


I can think of several

the RT can reach bursts of this butterfingers i think did it

the intimidator can get around 32 bps

the WAS boarded viking hits 35 bps

the impy I think, but don't quote me on it, 33 bps


It's a lot of talk but I'd like to hear more indepth explanations of all the features

[lamby]

Ok, I followed your lead.

Butters got a emagnum emag to fire at 30 (no biggie here as it is tourney banned in that config) and the rt pro was sweet spotting at 20-21 bps again not too impressed I can pull off 14-?? (locked at 16) bps pretty easy on the emag with no trigger rod.

Read my post above, there is only one way to obtain 31bps.. A full auto board (which the 4 is claims to have)

Tourney legal? NO

Fun? Hell yea!!!!

[Animal Mother]

Originally posted by lamby


Sure, a RetroMag shooting 31bps... RIIIIGHT. I would love to see a manual marker acheive this.


And the manual RTs CAN NOT DO IT!!!!!!

http://www.chimpy.com/jack/AutomagMaxCPS1.mpg

Yeah... there ya go... a video of a RT doing 32sps.

More info here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=81197&highlight=32cps

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by lamby
aaron,

I am sorry, I guess that was sorta a hijack. did not mean it though. The "4" looks sweet, and if it is decently priced will sell better than any other high end marker out at the time (in my opinion based on angels past market record)

Thanks for posting the info.

Hijack away. I just think that if AO goes on a letter writing campaign to WDP over a press release that would be some overkill!!!

[RetroEclipseMan]

Originally posted by Oregon_pb_
Prol $1300+ and is actually the same as any other marker. The fact that they mention its the world best at everything... lol



How can it feed and shoot 33 balls per second???
:rolleyes:

Well, if the new Q-Loader can do everything that it says it can then I'm sure that all of this rof hype these days can actually be put to the test. Heck, it'll kill 2 birds with 1 stone, 1)see if the q-loader can actually feed over 30bps and 2) see if this angel can really feed and fire 31bps.

[Ov3rmind]

My opinion is, you guys are overreacting. I mean, jeez, just let go of your freaking crusade already. The rof debates are so old and tired, it's just as annoying as reading spam.

[WARPED1]

I like how when another gun company makes claims that are better than your preciouis, immpossible to get, Xmags, you all doubt them. Well, John Rice and WDP happen to know what the hell they're talking about.
They work tirelessly improving thier design. You will all doubt them, until you shoot one.
Take a stock 98 LED and it'll outperform many other guns on the market, even your mags!
Before you all go trashing thier claims, go test one out for your self! Then, if it doesn't perform as advertised(I bet it will), then you can talk feces.

[JEDI]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
My opinion is, you guys are overreacting. I mean, jeez, just let go of your freaking crusade already. The rof debates are so old and tired, it's just as annoying as reading spam.

HERE HERE!!!!

I have nothing wrong with proof and evidence. I'm sick of the way some of you guys hunt down other companies, and bash them. Come on! You wrote WDP a letter? You're a Mag fan. You shoot an Automag. Why do you feel the need to disclaim every other Gun company. Who are you... Smart Parts? Let it go. Make your own decisions, and let others do the same.

[BlackVCG]

I hope this pushes the prices down on the Speed so I can get one of those.

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
I hope this pushes the prices down on the Speed so I can get one of those.
Yeah, I was hoping the same thing. And you just know LCDs and IR3s are gonna go even lower too.

[lack of grace]

Originally posted by Oregon_pb_
Prol $1300+ and is actually the same as any other marker. The fact that they mention its the world best at everything... lol



How can it feed and shoot 33 balls per second???
:rolleyes:


"BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH $1300"

How much does the xmag cost? How is it significantly better than a emag with a ule and xvalve?

[Animal Mother]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
I hope this pushes the prices down on the Speed so I can get one of those.

That would be nice since I am going to buy one next week :)

Black, you have good taste in markers, hehe

[SkeL]

Originally posted by lack of grace



"BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH $1300"

How much does the xmag cost? How is it significantly better than a emag with a ule and xvalve?

Best quote on AO ever

[painball]

There is too much hype over how fast a gun can cycle these days. I dont understand why all these people get so stuck up on speed they dont care to notice it wont help your game past 15 or 16bps. I cant think of any human finger pulling any trigger, no matter how light it is, 20+bps.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[breg]

The New Angel looks sweet. I like the way it looks, and I held one of the older IR3's and found out that the "Space Frame" is actually pretty comfortable. I've yet to try out a Y Gripped Mag.
As for pirce, I don't know. It's seems that you always pay and pay for an Angel. And of course, those who buy one today, will find that Warped Sportz has just released the new limited edition, so the one the you just bought is now not as cool...
I like Angels, always have. I just think that they really try too hard to add new stuff to the guns that they make. They jam pack more and more into the guns. I'm waiting for the optional Espresso maker attachment. Some of the features I can understand, but some just seem like too much. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I can bank on that paint-slinger throwing as much paint as trigger pulls. Then I like the marker.
As for the review, yeah it was full of hype, but then again, I think it's the job of the marketing people to hype it up to the public, and create a buzz for it. Though, I found myself going "Chuff, Chuff" at a point or two in the review.
All in all, I'm looking forward to hearing about how this paint-slinger preforms. Keep me posted, if anyone gets a chance to rip on it.
Later,
Breg

[aaron_mag]

Totally off topic but I think of the whole "Chuff Chuff" thing like Steve Wozniak (sp?) versus Steve Jobs. Tom is more like the Woz who was a brilliant engineer and had a sense of humor. As a joke he circulated a flyer at one of the tech shows on the fictional Zaltaire personal computer(complete with bench tests showing it outperforming his own Apple computer). It is said that Jobs picked up one of the flyer and was worried at how the Zaltaire was outperforming the Apple :).

That being said you still need a marketing genius like Jobs. I see nothing wrong with WDP doing a press release like this as it is the job of marketers to create interest. As the advertising guy in Rodger Dodger said it is the advertisers job to make consumers feel inadequate and unhappy. An unhappiness that luckily (insert product here) can cure and solve.

[FooTemps]

I like the milling... I don't like the hype and prie! lol

Man, I wish I could afford and angel... or a matrix... or a viking... or an alien... or a ule emag... or etc on and on forever and ever. :D

[Hexis]

Originally posted by lamby

Just for a quick reference there are only 30 pictures per second that make up a tv picture, Movies run at 24 pictures a second,

Slight correction. A NTSC signal is 60 fields per second, each field has 1/2 of the complete image in an interlaced format. So each line gets updated every 1/30th of a second, however one of the two fields is updated every 1/60th of a second.

[raehl]

Originally posted by WARPED1
I like how when another gun company makes claims that are better than your preciouis, immpossible to get, Xmags, you all doubt them. Well, John Rice and WDP happen to know what the hell they're talking about... go test one out for your self! Then, if it doesn't perform as advertised(I bet it will), then you can talk feces.

If John Rice is the one responsible for claiming that the new angel has a flatter trajetory due to low pressure (or for any other reason other than wind, curved barrel, or gravity field), he is either an idiot or a liar.

Period.

And if you believe it, you are also not an example of critical thought.

- Chris

[Lohman446]

Those people that are able to get hold of a 4 are going to have high precision firepower that is unrivaled, a real edge that will win games, and deal out some serious medicine along the way.”

This came from the press release, and before you think I just jump up and bash WDP, I'm not - I question the value of the X-Mag, of the newest cockers, and many many other guns - aside from intimidation factor on the field (which may or may not be important, depending on your opponent).

This type of thing annoys me... Let me state, that low kick is a benefit - it keeps your gun straighter for the next shot. Efficiency is a benefit, though only minimally (I can fire every pod I carry twice with my 91/4500 tank (and I carry three pods).

What do we seek in paintball guns next, what can really improve the gun. We already have guns that can shoot faster than we can pull the triggers. We already have guns that can almost "stack" paint on target. What do we seek in gun improvements now? This whole "Look, heres a new gun, its better then the gun you have now" is getting a touch on the ridiculous side.

[raehl]

I think the two places really left to improve markers are reliability and price. Maybe weight.

Even the pros still have guns go down on the field, and games lost to that are, in my opinion, a lot more important than an extra 2 or even 5 bps.

I had occasion to use my girlfriend's bushmaster BKO last weekend for a tournament.... totally stock. It got the job done just fine.

I shoot an E-Mag because it's reliable. Thing always works, even while my teammate's angels go down or have 50 point velocity spikes. (The warp feed and halo can be a little more tempermental.) My old '98 STO cocker has been very reliable as well.


- Chris

[Python14]

My first opinion is let WDP make outlandish claims. Most level headed people buying WDP products realize the truth behind them...that they are high quality piece of paintball shooting equipment with a hefty international price tag and in most respects, are not anymore effective at eliminating opponents than their cheaper, American, stacked tube counterparts.


My other opinion is they are ugly as butt and it makes me want an angel less.

[rx2]

I am reminded of the chant used in a conga-line in an episode of The Simpsons - "You don't win friends with salad."

To put it into the context of this thread, you don't sell markers with boring adds. They are simply employing ages-old practices of hype and mild mirepresentation.

That isn't to say we should just sit back and accept the fact that everyone does it. They are making claims that are misleading to some. But, there IS a sucker born every minute, and I can't blame people for taking advantage of it. People need to start taking things with caution. I can't hate WDP for capitolizing on the fact that most don't.

[Featherlite 80]

WDP has to have hype.

How could they not, there is so much hype around other guns, mainly the timmy, and anything else with a WAS chip. They have to raise the BPS limit because some people are dumb enough to think they can shoot that fast. They use trigger bounce to do it, but they dont care. Which brings me to my next point. Trigger bounce has to go.

Completely.

None of this adjustable crap, so theres a little, but not enough to be easily detected. For tournements, it has to be off, as it zero. Not 3, 2, or 1. If you want to have the ability to use trigger bounce for fun, thats fine, but it has to have a tourney lockout switch, like those used to stop full auto.

However, until every manufacturer does that, WDP has to have those thing there. Idiots have to be able to convince themselves that the angel is the fastest gun, leagally, or illegally, or WDP will lose business. The sole reason why angels became so popular was there speed, but now, with so many competitors, some costing hundreds less, and shooting just as fast, they have to have something else.

What they have is quality. Angels have always been a high quality marker. They rarely go down, not never of course, but rarely, and require minimal maitenance(sp?). With the new low pressure angels, in addition to way-too-sophisticated anti-chop systems, (should have just used ace imo) they promise to be easier on paint then there predecessors.

Now if they could only have a cooler trigger...

All this said, I still dont think they are that much better than an nicely tuned LED or LCD with ace that you could get for hundreds less.



One last comment...

Before someone says it here (it probably wont happen, there are few idiots on AO) it is really anoying when people say that WDP is flooding the market with angel models. WDP currently produces 2 angels. Plus the 2 warped versions and 1 cobra version. The 4 will most likey replace the IR3, and there will be a total of 5 angel versions. How many timies are there? How many imps? exactly.

And just a general question: Is the viking with WAS really capeable of 35 bps cause that sounds like bull**** if I ever heard it. Also what is this new Q loader? I am looking into a new loader...

[raehl]

True trigger bounce no longer exists on any marker. True trigger bounce is where bounces in the microswitch cause more than one shot per pull by buffering the extra bounce events to produce extra shots.

In fact, angels even use a trigger that breaks an IR beam specifically to eliminate trigger bounce.


Now, markers that have trigger pulls that are so light and short that the vibration of the marker causes more than one shot to be fired - well, that's pretty common.


Warpig has a qloader review up - to me, it looks like an expensive way to only get 100 rounds out of a 140 round pod.


- Chris

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by Featherlite 80
And just a general question: Is the viking with WAS really capeable of 35 bps cause that sounds like bull**** if I ever heard it.
No bull****.

[Oregon_pb_]

Just remember the Angel 4 is the best at everything and we all must buy one.... :p

In fact we should all order 2 maybe 3 that way we can have one in different colors to match the seasons and we will be best looking paintball player in the world!!!!

[FeelTheRT]

Originally posted by lamby
the human eye can only see between about 20 to 25 different "scenes" per second. Basicly, you are saying you can pull a manual triggered marker faster than the eye can see..

acutally that is not true. The human eye dosn't capture frames. It's a matter of what your brain can process. Light is constantly being reflected off of objects and your eye is constantly absorbing the patterns of colors into what we see as objects. Take a paintball flying across your field of vision for instance. Say you have a 10ft view of the path of the paintball. A paintball is traveling say 300fps. You see a blur of line which is the paintball traveling. You saw every movement of the paintball but since it was so fast, it appears as if it where just a line. In your case, if we were to just see a certain number of frames, it wouldn't be a blur of line. You would see the paintball in a certain location durring a certain time.

other than that, i agree with you on the whole RT Mag ROF thing.

[aaron_mag]

Where can paintball guns go from here?

As someone posted above we have markers that are reliable, fire fast, and don't chop (whether through electric eye or whatever). A reduction in weight would be the next big thing. This would mostly involve reducing tank weight and size. Don't know if that would be possible but that would be really nice!!

[Ov3rmind]

Here are the new trends I expect to come in high end guns:

Light weight (notice the recent increase in sub 2 lb guns)
Small size (everything is obviously getting smaller)
Efficiency (guns are striving for the 1 case per 68/45, and I'm sure some will surpass it eventually)

[rikkter]

could someone list every angel there is? led angel, lcd, year models and all that? i wanna see actually how many there are. lol:D

[lack of grace]

hype = advertising that works....

Welcome to the year 2003.

[sneakyhacker420]

The Angel 4 will cycle (that’s feed and fire) 31 balls per second. There is no other paintball marker on earth that can match this.


forgot about the retro/x-valves... 34.9 CPS from Jack & Coke's cycle test :eek:


if there was something that could feed that fast... it would shoot that fast


take that WDP



ps: IMO, WDP is turning into a company such as Kingman

they'll start out with a base gun, and from there they will change a few things over time, and each time they make some small changes, they'll come out with a whole new marker to market... so far, i have always thought that WDP was and still is full of hype

[logamus]

"Iridium", submitted 08/01/2003 - "The Angel 4 is the most accurate paintball marker of all time…" gets a big CHUFF CHUFF!

made me giggle.



the only people i think should be annoyed by this new angel are those that have ir3s. everytime you have a new model come out, the old one loses a ton of value. just ask any college student what happens to the value of their books when a new version comes out. let them hype, and let those with a couple extra grand go buy one. i love my mag, but im not about to pay what an xmag costs for a paintball gun and the vast majority of ballers wont pay what the angel 4 will cost either.

in what areas does paintball improve its products now? i think it has to be cost and efficiency. after all what other areas are there to improve? speed, most if not all guns now can shoot faster than we can pull the trigger. loaders can still improve to keep up with guns, but 99.9% of the world cant outshoot a halo now anyway. weight, not that it was a real major concern anyway, is now closing in on a non-factor. reliability, even formula 1 cars break down from time to time so a gun being 100% 100% of the time is unrealistic. i think reliability has very little room to improve. cost is the biggest area and prolly the most unlikely to improve in favor of the player. but such is life. aftica. :)

[Wooosh87]

Just to answer someone's question about how many versions of Angel's are/were available. I have also listed the Bob Long Intimidator series and SP Impulse series for comparison.
This is totally off the top of my head, so don't even consider this to be complete and accurate. I have put them into two separate categories, stock and Custom. You get the idea...

Angel Series

Base/Stock factory form:

Angel V6 (prototype I think, maybe non US version, anyone?)
Angel LED
Angel LE*
Angel LCD
Angel LCD C&C
Angel LCD Fly
Angel IR3
Angel IR3 C&C
Angel IR3 Fly
Angel Speed
Angel IR4

Aftermarket/Custom form:
(I believe most, if not all, "Custom" styles are made by WDP in-house. Correct me if I am wrong.)

Eclipse LED
Cobra LED
Cobra LCD
Cobra IR3
Warped Sports LCD (Dark)
Warped Sports IR3 (Dark)
Costa/Impact LCD
Costa/Impact IR3
Ripper LCD (Costa/Impact?, can't remember.)
Bonebrake LCD
Bonebrake IR3 (?, not sure if IR3 model is available)
Adrenalin LED
Adrenalin LCD
Lasoya Element LCD (Warped Sports)*
Lasoya CL*SS IR3 (Warped Sportz)*
Rock LCD (Warped Sportz)*
Rock IR3 (Warped Sportz)*
Stars and Stripes LED*
Alien Abduction LED*
Speed Demon (Warped Sportz)*
2000 AD LCD*
Joy Division IR3*
Joy Division LCD* (I think it existed, not positive)
DYE Ironman LCD*

Bob Long Intimidator series
(All custom units are made in-house by Delta)

Base/Stock:

Intimidator (Also called the "Classic")
2K2 Intimidator

Custom/Aftermarket:

GZ Intimidator
"Z Series" Intimidator (Same as GZ, different grip frame)
Ironmen Intimidator
ECX Intimidator
Lasoya/Empire Intimidator
Ripper Intimidator
Storm Intimidator
Dragon
Species*


SP Impulse

Base/Stock:

Impulse
Impulse vert reg
Impulse vision
Impulse vert reg vision

Aftermarket/Custom
(All Custom versions available with vert reg and/or Vision. Not enough time to list each separately. All units are made in-house by SP with the exception of the Python.)

Freak Factory
Ton Ton
Rat
>Python
TKO
Strange
Nasty
Detroit Thunder/Game face
Hypersport Werks
Adrenalin
Toxic
Demonic
Meteor
32 Degrees
Sic*
Voodoo*
Rat JR*
Evil Rat*
Predator*
Cash Money*
Fireball Mountain Gothic*
Atomix*

(>Aftermarket, not made by SP.)

Please remember, this is totally off the top of my head with absolutely no research. I may have a few that are wrong or even missing.
Please feel free to e mail me to add or to correct this list.

Hope this was informative!


Oh, and don't even think about asking me to list all the Autocockers out there, not going to happen! I would venture to guess that well over 100 aftermarket 'Cockers are available. That is being on the low side too!

*(Added by Ov3rmind, thanks for the info!)

[Ov3rmind]

It would be cool to compile a list of all the guns made now that I think about it. I could add to your list a bit Wooosh87.

Angels:

Lasoya Element LCD (Warped Sports)
Lasoya CL*SS IR3 (Warped Sportz)
Rock LCD (Warped Sportz)
Rock IR3 (Warped Sportz)
Angel LE (I think it was an LED)
Stars and Stripes LED
Alien Abduction LED
Dark LED (Warped Sportz)
2003 LCD
Dark 2003 LCD (Warped Sportz)
Speed Demon (Warped Sportz)
2000 AD LCD
Joy Division IR3
Joy Division LCD (I think it existed, not positive)
DYE Ironman LCD

I'm sure dansim could make that list even longer.

As for Timmys, you just forgot the Alien Timmy (the one with bone milling), I also believe all the Timmys but the ECX are made right at Bob's place, not really aftermarket. I also think there were some "Limited Edition" Timmys awhile ago that were Classics offered in different fades. Once again, I'm sure Slipknot could clear that up if I'm wrong.

Impulses:

Sic
Voodoo (only in Europe)
Rat JR
Evil Rat
Predator
Cash Money (oh how I hate that name)
Fireball Mountain Gothic
Atomix

[rikkter]

lol thanks guys. funny.

you forgot to name the spyders!

mag
rt pro
emag
xmag

hum, whats in store for the futuree

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by rikkter
lol thanks guys. funny.

you forgot to name the spyders!

mag
rt pro
emag
xmag

hum, whats in store for the futuree
I'll name all the Spyders if I have a whole week of absolutely nothing to do.

I'd count the RT and the RT Pro as different guns, there were some noticeable changes done to them. Ah yes, and don't forget the C&C and normal Extreme E-Mags (we did count the C&C Angels anyway). Among those are also the Tuna Mags, Tuna E-Mags, and TKO Mag. Maybe there were more Mags than you thought, eh?

[rikkter]

no, i knew about them, but i was only naming the level steps i guess. name wise you know? tuna EMAG, emag, same thing :D

lol at the spyder comment

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by rikkter
no, i knew about them, but i was only naming the level steps i guess. name wise you know? tuna EMAG, emag, same thing :D

lol at the spyder comment
Yeah, I see what you mean. But if you want to look at it like that, then for WDP it would be more like:

LED
LCD
IR3
Speed
A4

[rikkter]

well, kinda
WDP comes out with
lcd fly and stuff

agd doesn't really do that, they jsut sell add ons for the guns you know?
a normal rtpro, with after market parts is now a ule body,xvalve, ygrip rt pro

know what i mean?
i guess i'm meaning 'releasings'
if it is a word
WDP releases angel led, led fly, c+c, or whatnot
classic mag
rt pro
tha tother one you mentiond
emag
xmag

no xmag fly or what not, but is c+c and non
:D

wow i'm not making sense am i?

[Ov3rmind]

Nah, you're making sense. However, look at it like this: While WDP releases Angels with different milling options, AGD also releases Mags with totally different bodies. I think people just make a big deal about it because WDP names them the "Fly" or "C&C" when AGD doesn't. Then again, you have to seperate the milling differences with some sort of name, and "LCD Angel with more Milling" would be a boring name.;)

[GT]

Originally posted by WARPED1

Take a stock 98 LED and it'll outperform many other guns on the market, even your mags!

Agreed! I thought I was the only one left in the world that loved the "old" angels?

jb

[Diekrupt]

Originally posted by raehl


If John Rice is the one responsible for claiming that the new angel has a flatter trajetory due to low pressure (or for any other reason other than wind, curved barrel, or gravity field), he is either an idiot or a liar.

Period.

And if you believe it, you are also not an example of critical thought.

- Chris

Idiot, liar lol

Prove your theory or fact of pb trajectory as you believe it. Im just courious. People take pb accuracy and trajectory dicussions heavier than political or religious ones which I find amusing and like to egg on. Sorry :)

So accorinding to you, all markers shoot exactly the same because, the laws of physics demand them to? The force of air is applied differently in all guns to the ball is it not? There is acceleration that occurs in the barrel and depending on delivery mechanism, pressure and where the peak velocity occurs, doesnt that change the way the force is applied to the ball which greatly affects its trajectory? Morover the rate and form at which the ball is accelerated?

Darn, spellchecker for this site has expired.

Diekrupt

[raehl]

Originally posted by Diekrupt
So accorinding to you, all markers shoot exactly the same because, the laws of physics demand them to?

Better said, a paintball going 300 fps will follow the EXACT same trajectory EVERY time, barring spin, wind, altitude change, difference in mass of the paintball, and gravitational fields, because, yes, the laws of physics say so.

Since no paintball marker with a straight barrel can generate wind, add mass to the paintball, or induce spin in the paintball, then yes, ALL TRAJECTORIES ARE THE SAME.


The force of air is applied differently in all guns to the ball is it not?

Depends what you mean by differently - it's the same pressure over the entire back area of the ball, although how big that pressure is at any given time changes from marker to marker, barrel to barrel, and shot to shot.

But once a paintball is out of the barrel, it has no idea how force was applied to it - it's going 300fps, and that's all that matters. How it GOT to be going 300 fps makes no difference.


There is acceleration that occurs in the barrel and depending on delivery mechanism, pressure and where the peak velocity occurs, doesnt that change the way the force is applied to the ball which greatly affects its trajectory?

No.


Morover the rate and form at which the ball is accelerated?

No.

Gravity is the same all the time - every paintball is going to accelerate towards the ground at the same rate every single time. Every paintball (with the same mass) is going to be slowed down from 300 fps at exactly the same rate, every time.

So, unless the new Angel comes with a gravity adjustment or a flatline, any claim to a "flatter trajectory" is BS.


- Chris

[Hexis]

I think the people that honestly believe that a paintball will follow a different set of phisical rules depending on the brand of marker studied Phyzarks, not Physics.

[Wooosh87]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
I also believe all the Timmys but the ECX are made right at Bob's place, not really aftermarket. I also think there were some "Limited Edition" Timmys awhile ago that were Classics offered in different fades. Once again, I'm sure Slipknot could clear that up if I'm wrong.



ECX Action Sports, (East Coast Extreme Action Sports), is only 30 minutes from my house. Their timmy is straight from Delta/Bob Long. You could get technical and say they are straight from National Paintball Supply seeing as they are the exclusive distributer for the Intimidator, but let's not pull hairs...
Also, the Limited Editions were just as you said, different anno job, nothing more or special.

Thanks for adding to the list. Man, I sure did forget about a lot of them!

[Wooosh87]

Originally posted by rikkter
lol thanks guys. funny.

you forgot to name the spyders!



In reality, the spyder list is not that long. Their product line has not changed in it's "Base" form in over 10 years with the exception of the EM-1 which is similar to the ICD Bushmaster electroic line, (but far worse). They use the venerible, yet popular Stacked tube, blowback semi auto design. First use of this design style was by Sheridan with the VM 68. Also know as the PMI III.

Here is your list, Enjoy!

Kingman Spyder

Basic list. Face it, they are all the same!

Spyder
EM-1
Spyder wth electronic grip frame
That's it! No,really, that's all they make!


Or, Same gun, different name list

Spyder
Sport
Classic
SE
Limited Edition
Compact
Compact 2 in 1
One
Sonix
TL Plus
Shutter
Java Series (TL+ and Shutter in purple annodizing, wow!)
Agressor
X-tra
Flash LED
Flash LCD
AMG Classic
AMG LCD
EM-1
EM-1 Modify (never put into production)
Electra
Nexion (Labeled as a Raven product. Nice try Kingman!)
And a few more, mostly available through Wal mart and such.

Aftermarket/Custom
Don't know of any!

Kingman hasn't made a "Custom" marker for a specific person, company or team like WDP, Smart Parts or Bob Long has/does. Kind of supprising since Bad Company is such a well known team with such a major contract with them. Bob Long did have the Millinum body kit and gun, but it was not a Kingman authorized product so it doesn't fall under this catagory. It would be listed with all the "Clone" models that have flooded the market.
Don't ask for that list either! :D