The Mag CO2 FAQ! Check it out!

[Koosh]

Ok, let me say first that I am no AGD tech, just a guy who's been using CO2 on a classic valve for a year now...

This (http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=95170) thread had alot of good info in it too...

**MAG CO2 FAQ**

I just got tired of saying the same things to people every day about CO2 so I figure I’d write this.

Since the coming of HPA, CO2 has not been the best power source for paintball guns anymore. Unfortunately, HPA isn’t for everyone. In my case the only way to fill up an HPA tank would be to drive a total of 30 miles, while I can have my CO2 filled up in two. On top of that, I don’t have $200 lying around for a large tank. Sure I could get one of the cheapy 47/3k tanks, but driving 30 miles just to get under 500 shots on my mag wouldn’t be fun.

Mags CAN be run off of a CO2 tank with no protection, but performance will suffer when trying to shoot rapidly. With no protection, Liquid CO2 will get in the valve, and once there will cause all sorts of havoc. The gun spitting and sputtering, freezing and refusing to fire are all side effects of liquid CO2 in the valve.

What can you do to prevent this? Several things!

Probably the simplest solution would be to get a vertical adapter and run the CO2 tank like that. The Liquid CO2 will stay at the bottom of the tank, and Valve Freeze will be prevented somewhat.

If you don’t want the Vertical method, Try running remote. Not only will the CO2 tank be vertical there as well, but the remote line will act as an expansion chamber, allowing the CO2 liquid to boil to a gas before entering the valve.

Many people run Expansion Chambers as well. In case you’re unfamiliar, an Expansion chamber is nothing more then a large empty area to allow more room for the CO2 to change phase from liquid to gas.

Put an Anti-Siphon tube in the CO2 tank. This is a small tube that goes inside the co2 tank, and is bent “up” so that when the tank is held horizontal the liquid CO2 in the tank is not sucked it, it takes the stuff that has already boiled off inside the tank. This helps prevent liquid CO2 get into the valve… A good upgrade, the Anti-syphon kits can be had for $7, and usually a free install on any CO2 tank at your local pro shop. You should NOT put an Anti-Siphon tube inside a CO2 tank that is used on a remote or in the vertical adapter! Doing this would mean that the tank is sucking up the Liquid CO2 at the bottom of the tank, which equals bad times for automag users.

Regulators. Ever since birth, EVERYONE has been told to NEVER use a secondary reg for mags. We make an exception for CO2. Good regulators designed for CO2 are probably the BEST way to prevent liquid CO2 in the valve. Among those, the Palmer Stabilizer is universally known to be one of the Greatest, and it is what I use myself for mag. Check out www.palmer-pursuit.com to get your hands on one.

Please keep in mind that there is NO way to COMPLETELY end ALL liquid CO2 entering the valve. In my opinion, the best way to run a CO2 driven mag would be an Anti-Siphon tank along with the Palmer Stabilizer. I have that myself, and the valve will still freeze over if I let my Auto-Response frame go for too long. However you can mix and match any of the strategies listed here except Anti-Siphon tank and Vertical bottle/remote setup.

One more thing: NEVER EVER EVER NEVER use CO2 with a Retro/Emag/X-Valve. The valve was not designed for this gas in use, and no matter the precautions, Liquid CO2 will end up in this valve if you fire enough paint for a game. It will work for Last ditch Must-have tech situations where you fire EXTREMELY slowly, and not often, but even that isn’t recommended. Just avoid the trouble and don’t try it.

Notice anything I screwed up?

[nerobro]

Yes, never use a seccondary reg on a mag. on co2 you will just reduce the preformance of the gun.

an expantion chamber is a GOOD idea on a mag. Given the chamber is of good design and provides a place for the liquid co2 mist, bubbles, and other liquid co2 to settle out of the air stream. Think of it as a crankcase breather but it's going to try and remove liquid co2 instaed of oil. \

An expantion chamber, if designed right, is warmer than the rest of the air lines, and the tank itself. So liquid co2 that settles there will try to vaporize. Given that it's warmer, liquid will vaporize there beofre it does in the tank.

An antisiphon tube makes the co2 tank a huge expantion chamber.. and if that's doing it's proper job, then the expantion chamber will never even chill, or cool down. (as my experience with my co2 rig showed me)

A regulator will try to vaporize the liquid co2 by running it through a pressure change... but that causes other issues. As you shoot, the co2 tank's pressure will drop, and as input to the seccondary reg drops, so does it's flow. Just creatiing a restriction and reducing input pressure to the mag. A universally bad thing.

if you shoot fast, the pressure in the co2 tank WILL drop. And at that point, the regulator just becomes a line restction and dead weight. the expantion chamber will do the regs job and more, and not provide such restriction.

Again, this is dependant on a good antisiphon setup, and reasonable prudence while handling a gun running co2.

Handling a gun on co2 is like carrying a glass of water. (well a tank of water ;-)) don't point the gun down, don't lay it on it's side. and you should be good to go. Let gravity keep liquid down.

You got it right on the antisiphon tube... though there are more tricks to making those work well.

Keep in mind, I'm a lover of palmers regs, and what he does. And I'm the first guy to slap a reg on any gun that doesn't have one already. But a mag has one, and a decent one at that. Just feed it right (higher pressure air) and it will treat you right.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by nerobro
Yes, never use a seccondary reg on a mag. on co2 you will just reduce the preformance of the gun.

Keep in mind, I'm a lover of palmers regs, and what he does. And I'm the first guy to slap a reg on any gun that doesn't have one already. But a mag has one, and a decent one at that. Just feed it right (higher pressure air) and it will treat you right.

I guess I respectfully disagree then... The mag DOES have a good regulater, unfortunately its a touchy one. If you DON'T or CAN'T use HPA, unproteced Co2 is a BAD idea. The stabilizer helps 100%. I have a video of me going 13bps with my Auto-response framed Palmer Stab'ed mag. Unfortunately it's a profile, so you don't see where the balls go, but I can assure there is no NOTICEABLE dropoff.

I have seen NO problems using my Palmer Stabilizer and my AIR valve... Well, except that my valve doesnt freeze anymore. And I can ACTUALLY let my AR frame rip. Without it, I don't think any amount of expansion chambers would have helped.

[nerobro]

You'd have gotten the same results on a half full 20oz with a good antisiphon tube ;-)

CO2 needs radiatior aera. It NEEDS warmpth to vaporize. a big bottle, multiple small bottles ideally... expantion chambers. Places for the co2 to pick upheat from the outside enviroment.

You say unprotected... problem is the output pressure from the stab needs to be set nearly at the "nominal" pressure for co2 to make the mag run right. As soon as the tank starts to chill the reg you put inline is useless, and ends up just being a cold spot in the line, a place for vapor to condense.... nota good thing.

[Koosh]

Ok, I got really bored...

I made two videos using my digital camera, one with my Stabilizer, one without, both with the Anti-syphen tank attached.

They were done one day apart, the test with the stabilizer was on a FULL co2 tank, the test without is on the same tank, one day afterward.

Both were done in my house, it was dry fires so take what you want from that. In the Non-Stab video I used a different drop and ASA, so I had to hold the gun at a different angle to make sure the Anti-syphen kit was facing the right direction. Unfortunately it was at sort of a weird angle for me, so I couldn't get as high of a ROF on that one.

Results: With the stabilizer, and under rapid fire very little to zero puff of air were visible out of the barrel of the gun. The Stabilizer became very cold, while the valve was not. The valve was chilled, but not near as cold as the stabilizer. This leads me to believe the Stabilizer stopped the liquid from entering the valve area...

Without the stabilizer, the valve became cold very rapidly, and Co2 clouds were visible out of the barrel of the gun after less then 10 shots. After the test was completed, I noticed condensation, even frost on the valve. I can't comment on the performance of the valve, as I didn't use paintballs in the test, but I can say that the trigger "felt" slower as the test went on. I guess it could have been because of a different firing angle for the gun, but thats hard to tell.

I'd like to do this test again with someone holding the camera for me so I could stabilize my gun a little bit and keep the ROF's up higher for longer. Not to mention a test with paint would come in handy too.

I have no way to host these vids, but I can email them to you if you want.

[nerobro]

Your videos indicate other problems. And they don't even get into the realm of where the stab will be a problem.

it would appear you have a fairly innefective antisiphon tube.

The problem with an inline reg is that as you fire the gun, the tank pressure will drop below the regulated pressure of the inline reg. Therefore eliminating it's usefullness.

A properly setup antisiphon tube will prevent virtually all liquid from getting into the gun. What you're describing is liquid getting into the gun. I could make the stab do the same thing if I so desired ;-)

There will be chilling of the air valve. it's a given ;-) and it's not a "real" problem. mags are very tolerant of that sort of thing.

Allow me to define a test for you :-) But first fix that antisiphon tube.

both guns. 300 round string. as fast as you can pull it. See which one fails first. :-) I garuntee the gun running the stab will run into issues first.

As for the antisiphon tank. Take the valve off. bend the tube further towards the side of the bottle. heck cut it short. it should touch the side of the bottle, and be as close to the neck of the bottle as feasable. If you want to get really picky, put a small nail in the tube, and pinch the tube down on the nail. a smaller orafice (though still 10x the size of a reg full open...) Will also help prevent liquid from getting out of the bottle.

[Koosh]

Ok...

How come when the Anti Syphen is placed "Up" with the palmer stabilizer it performs fine, yet when it is placed "up" without the stab, it HAS problems? (marked "up" when the AS kit was installed)

I'll do the 300 round string test when I have the time and location to do it (I work too much and live in the city, not a good spot for many tests with paint). There will be alot of pauses though, I only have a VL2000 on a warp, and I outshoot that rather fast with my AR frame.

I just love how you GUARANTEE there will be problems, when I've used my mag like this for the last 6 months, even at a local scenario game firing 500 rounds in under 10 minutes for the final battle, with NO problems...

[nerobro]

I've seen my fair share of poorly doen antisiphon tanks. And what you're describing is just that. if in 10 shots you're seeing great puffs of co2, it's not doing it's job. at all.

500 rounds in 10 minutes ins't anything that signifigant. do it in less than 5 and we'll talk :-)

I don't even need you to be shooting paint. the problem "I" have run into is freezing down the tank. 300 rounds in a minute or two will show you the problem very well. Mags aren't that efficant, and chill the tank in a bad way. A inline regulator won't add pressure back to the tank.

you can adequately protect the gun from liquid co2 without an inline reg. (which is really where I was going)

Reg or no reg, the gun will chill the tank enough that the gun stops functioning. it's jsut the gun with the reg will show issues sooner.

[Koosh]

Originally posted by nerobro
500 rounds in 10 minutes ins't anything that signifigant. do it in less than 5 and we'll talk :-)


I'm a rec player, first and last. That IS alot for me ;) I guess I've never had problems with co2 is because I DON'T need to be firing 500 rds in under 5 minutes...

But yeah, I'll do the test whenever I get the time/space/money, etc...

[nerobro]

to tell the truth, I've never run into "mag on co2" problems during a game either. I don't often shoot more than a hopper a game.

given how much you shoot, you've never "really" stressed out your setup. I probally wouldn't manage it myself :-)

Yea I'm the guy with the gun that will do 20bps, the nitro system to back it up, and the hopper to feed it. Yet I can't pull more than 12, and I rarely empty the hopper. :-)

I did a lot of experimentation when I first got my mag. I discovered a lot of things :-) including that they run ok when flooded with liquid.

*grins* I love this.. carrying on a "real" conversation with someone, without it turning to name calling, or attacking the person in question. *grins again*

[Koosh]

Oh shutup, your so stupid. And a n00b. Definately a n00b. Notice how I put Zero's instead of "O's"... thus completeing the "pwnage" of any of your comments.

Wow, fighting like a 13 year old on the internet is more fun then I thought it was going to be! ;)