BlackVCG's ULT Thread

[BlackVCG]

First of all, this is a thread dedicated to the installation, tuning and operation of the Ultra Light Trigger (ULT) for AGD products. This can be purchased at www.store.airgun.com

This on/off assembly will fit and is recommended for the following:

X-Valves
Aluminum RT-Pro Valves

This on/off assembly can fit but is NOT recommended for the following:

E-Mags w/ double o-ring top
Micro E-Mags
MiniMag AIR Valves
68Automag Valves
Classic Automag Valves
HyperMags
SmartMags

This on/off assembly will NOT fit the following:

Stainless Steel RT-Pro Valves
Retro Valves
E-Mags w/ single o-ring top
Original RTs w/ Banjo Bolt valve

Here are some pictures of the on/off hole in various valves to show the difference between single o-ring and double o-ring.

E-Mag Valve with double o-rings. (Note the black quad o-ring which is special to the E-Mag only)

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/ULT/EM-Oring.JPG

Retro Valve with single o-ring. This valve will NOT accept the ULT.

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/ULT/RT-Oring.JPG

X-Valve. All of these valves have double o-rings and they are now coming installed on new RT-Pros. Both o-rings are removed from the valve, but you can see that the bottom does not have a step in it like Retro Valve. The gray spot at the bottom is just an unanodized spot.

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/ULT/X-Oring.JPG

Here is the Classic AIR valve. The same valve used in Automags, Minimags, etc. This valve has always and will always be a double o-ring valve and will accept the ULT, but it is not recommended for use in the this valve. It does not recharge fast enough and thus it is too easy to short stroke.

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/ULT/AIR-ORing.JPG

Sorry about the valve picture quality. It's hard to get in close and get a sharp picture and get enough light on it to show the inside of the on/off without making too much glare.

ULT Exploded Parts View

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/ULT/ULT-Explode.JPG

From left to right:

On/Off top o-ring (Same o-ring as on/off center o-ring for RT on/off assembly)

On/Off top w/ o-ring. (O-ring is same as Level 7 PT o-ring and on/off top outer o-ring in double o-ring valves.)

On/Off center o-ring. (New part for ULT. Rubber o-ring, not urethane. Very small, do not lose.)

Shims for adjusting sealing point of on/off top o-ring. (Same dimensions as Level 10 shims, but .005" thick instead of .010")

On/Off bottom w/ o-ring. (Same o-ring as on/off top outer o-ring)

On/Off pin support. (Install after on/off assembly is screwed together. Place grease around outside before inserting into on/off bottom to keep from falling out.)

On/Off Pin. (Very fragile. Take special care when installing. Install so larger diameter head is at top of on/off assembly.)

Videos

These are some videos of me shooting the ULT on my XRTP. This is pretty much the first time I got out and shot the thing, so I'm pretty slow. I am wearing safety glasses, if you can't tell. Sorry about the extra time in the video of me turning on and off the camera. I was the only one around when I took these videos. Also, sorry about the plane flying overhead in the first video. Didn't even notice it was there until after I filmed the clip. At least I can fan the trigger now...

Right click on the links and save them to your computer.

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/DCP_0942.MOV

http://www.automags.org/~BlackVCG/DCP_0006.MOV

[Bad_Knees]

Black,

if the SS Retro valves get drilled out to accept two o-rings will it work? Since this was not stated in your original post. Thanks!

BK

[BlackVCG]

Any RT valve with single o-rings that is drilled for double o-rings will work perfectly fine as long as it's done PROPERLY.

I will not be drilling any valves for anyone, so please don't ask. There will be other people offering this service, but AGD isn't going to warranty their work.

[Bad_Knees]

Just wanted some clarification...better now that after the 20th time being asked about it ;)

[BlackVCG]

Anything else I need to add, guys? You name it and I'll try to do it. Installation video I'd like to do, but we'll see if that's possible... I just have a digital camera that can take video, so setting it up to take a video of me installing the ULT will pose a challenge...

[Bad_Knees]

Of course Jeff aka PBDaddy has put some up there so maybe if you could do the same it would be helpful. Thanks!

BK

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Could someone please elaborate in detail how we should be connecting the on/off pin and the support and inserting them, step by step? I have seen posts referring to loc-tite and grease being used and that we have to connect them after the pin is inserted in the on/off assembly and general instructions . Does this mean that once you've inserted the pin, and sealed the pin support to it on the other side of the on/off bottom, the two can never be seperated or taken out of the on/off assembly? I get mine today and don't want to make a huge mistake and if I'm correct in that by sealing the support to the pin it doesn't let the pn be removed from that point on. what happenes if it does get bent taking it out later on (adjusting shims when gets a new grip, rail, etc)? Can't wait to do this, just don't want to goof it up and not be able to play Saturday

[BlackVCG]

The pin support just needs to slide into the bottom of the on/off and stay in there when you insert it into the gun. Once it's all gassed up it's "locked" inbetween the pin and the sear.

The reason loctiting it has been mentioned is to keep you from having to turn the valve upside down to keep the pin in place when you insert it into the gun. The problem with this is, you'll have to break the loctite loose if you need to disassemble it.

The only purpose of loctiting it is to keep it from falling out and I figure you can accomplish the same thing by putting a bit of grease on the pin support. Even some oil should have enough viscosity to keep it from falling out. Loctiting it is a stupid idea and only going to cause people headaches because they don't know how to properly use loctite or because they won't know how to get it apart without breaking the thing.

[personman]

I have a question.
When I got my .750 pin in the mail for my regular on/off, it wouldnt work until I shaved it down (I dont know what its at right now, I dont have any calipers) but it works perfectly if I shaved it down just enough..
I ordered the ULT, will it be true for this? Will I have to shave it down?
Also, I have a quad oring in my XValve.. I dont know if that normal or not, or if brad just put it in when he was installing it because it was going to go on my micro e-mag.. but I sold that and kept my X-Valve..

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thanks BlackVCG, exactly what I needed to know. So no loctite, cool. I'll try autolube and just take it real easy putting the valve on the rail so I don't bend the pin. I can't wait! :D

Oh yeah, quick followup: how many shims worked for you, and is there any benefit to using lvl 10 shims, like that if they are closer to .11 they can get the hysteresis closer than just using ULE trigger shims? With too many it'll just go into mad runaway right?

[Dayspring]

Remember. Using the shims can have the same effect as shaving the pin or using a shorter/longer on/off pin.

You are changing the point at which the pin will seat in the oring. The more shims you add, in effect, it makes the on/off pin "shorter."

Taking shims out will in effect be like having a "longer" on/off pin in.

And all this is accomplished with the pin staying the same length. :)

[speeddemon]

So basically put as many shims as possible into it while it still shoots and doesnt runaway right?

[Halliday]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Any RT valve with single o-rings that is drilled for double o-rings will work perfectly fine as long as it's done PROPERLY.

Good to know. What about this situation. Say I have a Retro valve drilled out for the 2 o-rings, try the ULT and don't like it. What o-rings would I use with this drilled-out, non-ULT Retro valve?

[BlackVCG]

Dayspring explained the shims well.

Keep installing the shims until it has too much bounce. If you don't have enough shims, it will be too easy to shortstroke. Add one shim at a time until you like how the trigger is. The maximum number of shims you can use is six. The kit comes with two installed and three extra.

I don't think there will be any problems with bending the pin. The pin support is larger than the AIR valve on/off pin in diameter and even if it catches on the hole in the mainbody, it doesn't have enough play in it to bend the on/off pin. Just make sure it's all the way in the hole before you slide the valve into the mainbody.

Halliday- You can use the o-ring that is on the outside of the on/off top or the on/off bottom of the ULT. It's also the same o-ring as the powertube o-ring for Level 7. That o-ring combined with the old on/off top smaller o-ring you removed before you put in the ULT is what you'll need.

Personman- You will remove all parts from your valve, including the quad o-ring. Don't worry about what you have in there now. As Dayspring told you, the shims will compensate for having to shave the pin.

[Jerhew]

Black, some people have mentioned some extra play in the trigger now...what's your opinion on trigger stops(i won't mention anything about trigger rod length):D
just trying to get as much info as possible before my ult comes in tomarrow

great thread btw
you're always the one i think of when i have a tech question
(other than than Tom himself of course)
keep up the good work

[silentdeath55]

is the black o-ring supposed to fit inside the other white one? mine doesnt and i'm confused, someone help....

[afrankart]

Has anyone noticed if increased input pressure will result in any more reactivity at all? I was wondering because I have a preset at 750 psi and my normal on/off doesent give much reactivity at that pressure, so I am hoping I wont have *especially* low reactivity.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I got my on/off sent to me all set up ready to go, I think that's how they're coming now. I just popped that badboy in my gun and it was pretty good, threw another shim on and it was better, then I ran out of air cause I was at 900psi to start and spent 200psi because I kept shooting once and getting the bolt sticking forward and venting. Too many Lvl 10 shims had an effect with this, I guess because of less push resetting the sear to start, I don't know. Anyone else had that issue? The pin comes bonded with the pin support and in the ULE bottom too, not sure how AGD connected them (loctite?) haven't tried pulling it out yet. Have any of you who got it after the beta test fiddled with this?

Still can't walk it, and I am definitely starting to consider the idea again of drilling a hole a little higher up on the sear to angle the pin, cutting a little stroke distance off but increasing the reactivity. The pull is so light but without a little shorter pull it's definitely not walkable. Anyone know how AGD gets their sears made? Do they do them inhouse or do they outsource for them? I'd love it if I could pay AGD a little more and have them punch the hole a little higher on a sear before they coat it and set the trigger rod just right for the new angle, keeping it within AGD standards. I'd be happy to pay a little more for it and let them know how it goes if they set it up so I don't have to modify it and risk hurting my baby (All-AGD ULE mag). Beta-test it basically. Can this custom work be done? And before this becomes suitable for another forum....

How many shims is everyone with a ULE body/XValve/Stock AGD rail/Intelliframe setup using? I'm at 3, one above what they send it to you with. Anyone finding the need to use Lvl 10 shims with the on/offs they're sending now?

Frankart, I have not fiddled with input pressure because I use a Crossfire set nitro tank, but the reactivity isn't bad, I haven't shot much but it comes back pretty fast.

[silentdeath55]

I have 4 ULT shims and 2 LX shims. If I had an x-valve I could walk my trigger right now, its that light. My LX does stick a lot too. I'm going to work on that tomorrow and see if i can figire it out. I let you know if I come up with anything.

[Dayspring]

Black oring fits on TOP of the on/off bottom assembly. There's a little recessed section that it goes in. And then the pin goes through that.


Originally posted by silentdeath55
is the black o-ring supposed to fit inside the other white one? mine doesnt and i'm confused, someone help....

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Wow, that's some serious shims silentdeath, and it doesn't go into runaway? Impressive work man. I ran out of air before really finely tuning it but when I get more air I will throw a few more in and see what I can do. It hasn't gone into runaway, just had that stick issue.

The strange thing about the stick issue is it starts if I am firing and using my finger to stop the bolt firing all the way (raining outside and gotta respect the roomies by not firing the thing much). I went out of my apartment, actually fired a shot, and it was fine. Weird. But that was when I noticed the issue of a little pull on the trigger letting it vent. I think it's because I can go so slow with the trigger that I was able to catch the leak, it was only a minor one. But I took out a shim and will test it next time, I had 4 in the LX so I'm sure that was it. So I think I'm all set with that but it definitely came up once the ULE on-off was put in.

I gotta play with this badboy this weekend! Any other great tuning tips coming up?

[Jerhew]

silentdeath is running a classic i believe, so no worries about runaway there...

hopefully ill have a whole rundown of what i did tomarrow night
i have some special plans:p

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Jerhew
silentdeath is running a classic i believe, so no worries about runaway there...



Silentdeath - Is that true? Are you running the ULT on a classic valve? I'm considering doing the same thing but wanted to wait to see if anyone would give it a shot. Are you having problems with the valve not recharging quick enough?

[silentdeath55]

It is true. I do have some problem with recharge rate. you probably won't get anymore firepower with this upgrade if you run a classic valve, but once you get the pull down you will hardly ever short stroke. The pull is extremely light though. I love it, but I cant wait to try it in an x-valve.

[HateE]

Where can i get some more shims? I have all of em in there that came with it... cept i think i lost one so im -1 shim, how many came in the little bag? i know i put three in.

[BlackVCG]

It comes with three extra shims and should have had two installed. You shouldn't need more shims than that to get it working properly.

[painball]

This sounds dumb but do I remove the o-ring existing in my x-valve before putting the ULT in?

And did the ...the name of it doesnt come to mind right now...the thing you need to bond in..did it come factory pre-bonded because it wont come out for me. Well maybe it will, but I'm just afraid to bend the pin.

[Jerhew]

just pry it out...if you don't have a dental pick...use a wood or plastic toothpick...
that way you won't wreck the orings or scratch anything(not that you really can hurt it anyway

yes they come pre bonded now apparently...
mine did anyway
no need to remove it anway unless that little black oring goes bad...

[BlackVCG]

I'm pretty sure they aren't coming pre-loctited. You need to be able to adjust the shim setting. Just push on the top of the on/off pin so the large support piece at the bottom will be sticking out far enough so you can grab it with your fingers. If you can't get it out, some needle nose pliers or regular pliers used CAREFULLY can grip onto it better and pull it out.

Don't be so worried about bending the small pin. When it's installed in the on/off it's pretty much impossible to bend it (I'll probably end up being proved wrong on that one). When you unscrew the two pieces for the on/off assembly be sure to gently pull them apart as you unscrew them. This will get the threads to catch so it will unthread. Once the top is off, set that aside so you don't bend the pin and adjust your shim setting by placing/removing them from the bottom piece.

[Jerhew]

well they definitely are bonded somehow
i gave mine a tug and it was in there tight...
i see no reason to separate it though
just slide the on/off top off of the pin and adjust your shims..
just have be kinda careful when assembling it so you don't bend/break the pin
it's really no big deal though

[mistwolf]

OK, I will bit. I can't get mine apart to add shims. :/ I've pushed the center pin down so the bottom pin can be grasped; but the sticking-out pin doesn't come all the way out, and once at that point, I can't figure out how to get the on/off top off to add shims.

Help? :)

Jamie

[mistwolf]

Nevermind; more force was required. Now up and running, all 5 shims in, all told, no shootdown or runaway. here's my question; do we want MOER or LESS shim action here?

Jamie

[Jerhew]

it appears that the more shims you have(without it going into runaway or doubling) the lower the likelyhood of you short stroking...
so i'd say more is better

[HateE]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
It comes with three extra shims and should have had two installed. You shouldn't need more shims than that to get it working properly.

*****... i have all of them in and it still shoots less and less air until it stops completely.

[Jerhew]

You shouldn't need more shims

there's that word again
"shouldn't"
pfft

well if it's still not working you can use level 10 shims...
just remember that they're twice as thick

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK guys, I would definitely appreciate some help on this: I gas my gun up, test fire once or twice, and then the bolt continuously does not reset fully. I have to manually put my finger in the breech and reset the bolt. What is going on? It didn't do it until I put in the ULE. The trigger feels totally limp and the sear pin is not being pushed out at all by the xvalve on one or two occassions as well. I run a Crossfire 68/3000 preset and didn't have this issue before, it was a totally nuisance today at Boston Paintball, I sat out a few games because it wasn't working. I added shims to the point it went into runaway if I sweetspotted.

Any thoughts into what could be causing this to not gas up in the first place or after a few fast shots not let the sear reset for another?

[Jerhew]

hrm
is it well lubed?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Yeah, I put some oil in it, I also was getting borderline runaway (random doubleshots) just now so I took a few shims out. I wouldn't mind it being a little closer between shot and refill but it is also still sometimes not resetting right, mostly when I put my finger in the breech and shoot (in my apartment). When I have the issue on gas-up, it's almost like no air has filled the valve, then sometimes just "click" and it locks in. The on/off is lubed. I just don't get it and it is really making it unreliable to use.

[Jerhew]

just seems more like the kind of thing that happened when i was breaking in my level 10
did you try turning your velocity up?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Level 10 should be fine, shooting 280 pretty steady, removed one shim because I was having an issue where if you put a little weight on the trigger it would start leaking, and it has no leaking down the barrel. I'm somewhat convinced it has something to do with the on/off or sear as it also shoots often when I gas it up. It sometimes lets the bolt move forward and stay there venting when I gas up and then if I reset it or let it fire, it's fine, I don't have a clue what's up.

[Jerhew]

well all i can say is
check and double check everything
check the sear and bolt lip for wear
make sure the on/off pin isn't bent and moves freely
then i'd say install your stock on/off just to make certain the ult on/off is the problem
oh ya make sure you have enough air in your tank
i dont know how many times my gun has started acting funny and worried me for a second just to see i only has 500 psi in my tank

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Good idea, I know it's not the air, I was gassed up and filled it and still had the issue, and the tank hasn't ever given me issues, but switching back to the normal one could be a clue. Thanks!

[speeddemon]

I think I though of a reason why the LX bolts are getting stuck. It happened with mine when I tried it on my dads classic valve, but I didn't really worry about it since my X-valve is coming. I bet the kick back of the new on-off pin isn't enough to get the sear back on the bolt, and the reason it does it when you short stroke, is because there is even less kickback. I don't think the shims (in the level 10) would have anything to do with it getting stuck as long as it was set up right in the first place. They control the venting point if it pinches a ball, and when the bolt is getting stuck with the ULT, there isn't any air to vent.

Try upping the tank pressure if you have an adjustable reg. That is if adding more shims doesnt work.


This is all speculation, and I really don't have much way to test it since I don't have a valve right now, but I figured Id try and help somehow.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I have a set pressure tank so I can't adjust it. I was always under the impression Mags work fine with a Crossfire tank but that could be the case that 800 isn't enough. If it is, I wasted my money because this problem definitely caused my gun to go down and I don't have faith in it to work right now.

[BlackVCG]

The only times I have had a problem with the bolt not reseting is when my air pressure is too low. I would have the output of the tank checked to make sure that is good. Do you have an intellifeed setup and what kind of trigger frame are you using?

[afrankart]

Man, I hope the output of the tank isn't that important, because I have a crossfire @ 750. I will know in a few hours when I get a chance to fill my tank and install the upgrade.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Here's my full setup:
ULE body/XValve (both purchased at initial release of them), stock minimag rail, Intelliframe with intellifeed (not like that would affect much), Crossfire steel nitro 68/3000 (the green one). Not 100% on the output, 800 or 850, and never had a problem before with it really. Not like this problem especially and it seemed to really be an issue after a couple hours of playing just yesterday and never before. The weird thing is how sometimes when I turned the air on it didn't even feel like the valve pressurized and pushed the on/off out. Any thoughts?

[HateE]

Originally posted by Jerhew


there's that word again
"shouldn't"
pfft

well if it's still not working you can use level 10 shims...
just remember that they're twice as thick

IS there any other place i could find some shims that would fit seeing as i dont hve a lvl10? Is This something the local paintball store would have?

[speeddemon]

If you don't have level 10 yet, get that before you get the ULT. You will just end up chopping paint.

[Jerhew]

quincy can you maybe get ahold of someone else's tank
preferably an adjustable...
give that a try...
just a thought

i agree with speedemon you should get the level 10 before the trigger kit...
if you don't you'll wish you did

[BlackVCG]

Quincy- Make sure you fully tighten the field strip screw with an allen wrench. Also, make sure the rail bushing didn't fall out when you took apart the gun to put in the ULT.

[speeddemon]

Ok, I messed with my dad's valve again, and I found that he didn't set up his LX quite right. He needs another shim in it. It will reset off of balls, but not a finger. So maybe I was wrong about the LX shims not doing anything. Try adding another one to your LX and see what that does.

[Meph]

Haven't got the ULT yet, but about to in probably 2 days. But very nice job on the report, mucho useful infomation there. Congrats.

[AkumA]

after shooting HateE's marker, it had some "shot down". brought up by the AGD engineers that it would happen.

question, does a valve mod actually help? he has the stock 1 hole, where as i was ripping shots off with my AR frame, and doing fine (Autoresponce, not retro) that has 7 holes, yes 7, i guess they got lazy.

[HateE]

Yea... I dont think its really a shim problem but more of a recharge problem. It shot a constant fps if you shot REALLY slowly, im talking like really slow, like as slow as a one armed dude could fire a pump.

But i dont really know anything so tell me im wrong.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Thanks for the help guys, I do appreciate it. Here's some more info:

I don't think another Lvl10 shim will do anything, I removed one because if I put pressure on the trigger it would leak. Would being short 1 shim in the Lvl10 actually prevent bolt reset?

I will try another tank when I can but this problem really didn't arise till the ULE trigger.

By rail bushing do you mean the part the field strip screw goes through? I'm pretty sure it's still there. Why would the screw need tightening with an allen wrench? I screw it in real tight and have tried it again and again in case the valve wasn't lined up right or something. No luck.

The thing that confuses me is how it's gone between not gassing up at all to not functioning or the bolt not resetting after rapid fire. What else could cause that?

[speeddemon]

The more I think about it, the only reason that the bolt would stick would be because there was still some air in the chamber, and the vent hole is past the o-ring. If there is no air in the chamber, then the bolt has to reset. The spring is too stiff for it not to. So then there has to be some air in the chamber. And if the number of shims is just right, then it would either vent or sit back far enough for the sear to catch the edge of the bolt.

If messing with shims doesnt work, then I give up.

[tmnothing]

Originally posted by BlackVCG
The only purpose of loctiting it is to keep it from falling out and I figure you can accomplish the same thing by putting a bit of grease on the pin support.

What kind of grease are you talking about? Would it be a bad idea to use that IC2000 adhesive that you recommended for the retro bumpers? Or should I just try to use some of my normal gun oil?

[speeddemon]

Use grease, not glue. If you glue the 2 pieces together, then there could be some more chance of bending the pin.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK Speeddemon, maybe you are onto something, but how would having one few too many shims cause extra air to stay in the valve? That does make sense though, but how would that also cause the on/off to not reset on gas-up too? You might be right, just trying to figure it out? Because I swear I'm getting the issue where too many shims cause leaking if slight pressure is put on the trigger.

I need to fill my tank and then I'll fiddle with this but it's aggravating the hell out of me.

One side question: how precision can Lvl 10's/ ULE triggers be with shims? It seems like you could get it real close to perfect and then by an oring settling a little (not even wearing in, but just settling) or by the rail and body sitting differently, it could throw your timing, go into runaway, etc. Thoughts?

One other curious question: does having a thinner channel for the air to flow through in the on/off reduce the ROF the Mag can keep? OR is the recharge rate for an Xvalve and basic pressure principles result in that at 400psi (chamber pressure) the smaller space for the air to get through has no effect on ROF, just the reactivity?

Just trying to figure out why my Mag is suffering right now, I want to get this bad boy up to peak performance. I appreciate all your help guys.

[Fritzy]

Quincymassguy - having too few shims in your LX does cause bolt stick. With too few shims, if the bolt is not allowed to move forward enough in the breech the stem cannot vent. This causes the bolt to hang, and is the reason shims are used. This can also cause it to hang if you place something (like a finger) right up against the bolt face, but not if you have your finger sitting a few centimeters off the face.

I have also experienced bolt stick when using too tight an o-ring carrier in the LX. If an extra shim doesn't stop the stick, try the next larger carrier. If it doesn't leak, that might solve your problem.

Scott

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

The thing that confuses me is that I had to remove a shim because when I put pressure on the trigger it was venting early, and it started doing that a little still with the ULE on/off so I took out another. I dunno, you may be right. I will play with it.

[BlackVCG]

You shouldn't need to play with the LX shims. If it works fine now and the leak is gone, then leave the LX alone.

You need to start looking at the sear and other things. Make sure the trigger rod has a gap inbetween it and the back of the trigger. Make sure that the ULT on/off pin assembly can move freely.

[Mr.Orange]

Hello all,

QuincyMassGuy,

I had a similar problem with my mag. I had a Stabuli ProConnect (SP?) on my marker, and when I gassed it up, the bolt would take forever to set. The bolt would just sit there, the trigger rod would stick for a long time, it was common for me to have to wait upwards of five minutes before the bolt would 'pop' out and then the marker fired fine.

So I replaced my ProConnect recently with a ACI On/Off and the problem went away, and tha mag was just better overall.

Maybe you have something restricting your air system? Tape/dirt in the valve? Just some thoughts...

James

[the larch]

And good thoughts they are. Same thing I was thinking. Something might be restricting air flow from the tank to the gun.

[Ohms Law]

This should be a classic thread.

[trex]

quincymassguy:

I'm having the same problem. I don't think its a level10 problem because like you said the trigger rod is not resetting. Like there's not enough pressure to push the on/off pin and reset the trigger/bolt. I have the problem after rapid fire and possible short strokes. Then if I wait a minute, pressure will build and reset the bolt/trigger. I can actually hear the hissing sound as the pressure builds. If my tank pressure is getting low, then it will not build at all. Is it possible that the on/off pin needs lubrication to be able to cycle through the O-rings in the on/off? LMK if anyone comes up with solutions. This is very frustrating, until I can get some consistent performance i'm sticking with my RTpro on/off and giving the ULT a big THUMBS DOWN (wasted $50):(

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Trex, what kind of tank are you using? I'm wondering if it is due to the presets not cranking out enough. If it is the case, I will be really annoyed cause I wouldn't have bought it if someone mentioned that.

I have lubed the pin, no real effect. And the sear is like new, I got it with the XValve I got a short time ago. And I rarely play. And I know the Lvl 10 is tuned right carrier-wise because it can still shoot but sticks a little with one lower and leaks with one higher. The shims I will look into. I am going to reassemble it and also try another person's preset on it but it's strange it didn't start really until I got the ULT.

Anyone else have a similar issue?

And I agree with the remark about consistent: If I wanted an inconsistent marker that always required adjusting... I would have bought an Autococker.

[Jerhew]

well i've set the pressure on my adjustable tank at 600psi and it still fires fine...
although it may still be part of your problem...id rule out it being your entire problem

did you try swapping in the extra orings that came with the ult..
it could be an o-ring tolerance issue...

and btw how many times have you cycled it?
sometimes things just need to be broken in
my ult was a little inconsistant at first...
but after going through about 3 tanks of air it seems fine

remember to make sure the entire valve is well lubricated(not just the on/off)
put 3 drops into the asa then put the tank back on and cycle the gun...

i cant think of anything else to try
like i said before try borrowing an adjustable tank from someone

you wouldnt happen to be using MICRO-line would you?
just checking

[trex]

quincymassguy:

I'm using a 68/3000 flatline set at approx 1000 psi. The problem does seem to happen more when my tank pressure gets below 1000. As for breaking in, i've put about 2 tanks through. I'll keep messing with it. My point of view is that if it hangs even once in a game, thats too much. With my current set up I haven't had even one broken ball and my gun never gives me a problem. If I have to pull the trigger with 2 more lbs of force to get that kind of reliability then so be it.

[speeddemon]

Ok, I might have a solution for you guys. I got my X-valve today, and was putting the ULT in with the LX at the same time. And at first I was getting the same kind of bolt stick as before, and it turned out the LX carrrier was doing it. I went with a bigger carrier and it shot perfect. I have all the shims in the ULT, and 1 in the LX. I do need to change the carrier back down now after putting several hoppers through it since the o-ring has settled in and started to leak. But maybe that will work for you.

[striker]

I have no idea if this is a ULT problem, but after installing my ULT (it RIPS by the way :) ) and firing a few tanks through it, my XRTP got a leak down the barrel, usually when I fire and hold the trigger back. Most of the time, the leak will stop if I hold the trigger back for 5 seconds or so, but sometimes it won't. Sometimes, it'll leak with just a little pressure on the trigger, and once it was leaking down the barrel with no pressure on the trigger. Any idea what the problem is? My XRTP came with the LX installed, and it hasn't given me a problem before the ULT was installed. I've also noticed that my bumper is in pretty bad shape, almost falling apart. Any help would be nice.

Also, as for the bolt-stick. I've noticed that occasionally the bolt would get stuck a few centimeters in the breech, and about 50% of the time pressure would build and the bolt resets. The other 50% I have to manually push the bolt back to reset it. Not really a big deal, but is this what you are talking about? Thanks!

[hobbesTZ]

I dunno if this has been covered yet...(56k is too slow to see everything)...But from what I've gathered, the ULT will work fine in a classic valve if you use enough shims.

[Grasshopper]

*sigh* I'm having the same problem. I gas the gun up, it fires like 5 times (without me pulling the trigger), then it settles. I can shoot like, twice, then it gets stick. I push the bolt back in, and I can fire once more. It gets stuck each time after that. I've tried from 2 shims all the way up to four and a LX shim. Same problem all the way through. I confused :confused:

[Jerhew]

that doesnt make much sense
basically the only thing that will cause that to happen
would be:
not enough tank pressure
on/off pin not moving freely enough
sear not moving freely enough

from what i've observed, it appears that the ult works better with higher tank output pressures(800-1000psi)

i think that makes sense because there's less surface area on the top of the pin pushing down so you need more force pushing on it to get the same speed...
can anyone that has more recent working knowledge of fluid dynamics comment on this?
it's been 6 years for me, so i'm a little rusty :p

you might just need to break your orings in...
my gun is a lot more consistant now than when i first installed my trigger...
after dry firing it a lot and adding 2-3 drops of lube into the asa every once in a while
it seemed to make things run smoother

never under-estimate the importance of lube
and i hope you're using a good high quality paintball/air tool lube
i remember when i first started out with my tippamn pro-lite...i used 3in1 oil in it! what a noob i was lol
i could figure out why my gun just wouldnt work
all it was, was me using the wrong kind of lube
as soon as i cleaned out all the 3in1 and used regular paintball lube...it has worked fine ever since
ok sorry for running on and on
hope this helps

[Grasshopper]

I'm still confused. I've tried just about every shim arrangment I can think of. I put my old on/off assy back in, and the gun shoots fine.

Only when I put in the ULT, and shoot, the bolt sticks forward. I REALLY wanna get this thing working. Please, anyone?

[afrankart]

My bolt sticks on occasion, and I was told that if you smack the back of your valve kinda hard with the palm of your hand, it will reset your bolt. This works for me, and the more I play with it, the less it sticks.

[SlipknotX556]

Thanks Black, the pics have helped me. Now if you can get that install video up, I will love you... I dont want to have to send you my mag to get the ult installed ;)

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by SlipknotX556
Thanks Black, the pics have helped me. Now if you can get that install video up, I will love you... I dont want to have to send you my mag to get the ult installed ;)

dude
honetly its a breeze to install(as long as you didn't have a single o-ring retro valve like i did...)

there are a few people here who seem to be having some problems getting it to work reliably and we still haven't completely figured out why
but on the whole
it's rediculously easy

[Grasshopper]

*sigh*
I had to be one of those few :(:):(

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Yeah, I'm definitely not the only one having this issue and it definitely started the minute the ULT trigger was added. So basically my Mag is unreliable now, and I am not playing until I resolve this because showing up to Boston Paintball paying $80/case and risking not having a working gun to use isn't worth it.

Tuning it was easy, but something else is the reason for this.

[Grasshopper]

Yea... Maybe there was a batch of bad ULTs? Or something? I only know of a few (10 or so?) peolpe having this problem. I really hope I can get this working soon.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

I was just thinking... has anyone had the same issue of rapid fire cause the bolt to not reset or gassing it up causing the sear to not reset? The issue of chargeup not gassing didn't happen until the first time I had it go down during a game. I'm wondering if...

It initially starts by a chuff where it pushes the bolt forward just a little and the carrier causes bolt stick or some air remains from the level 10. Because the spring tension and stored energy in the spring is minimal from it not even getting a quarter of the way into the breech that the spring isn't pushing back enough to get the bolt clear of the stick or to push hard enough on the leftover air in the lvl 10 from not being able to vent. The reactive effect on the sear is a third of what it was and perhaps the higher reactivity was enough before to snag the tip of the bolt and force it back, but with less reactivity now it can't do that. So if it happens once, taking off the hopper, pushing the bolt back, then gassing up, might resolve it. I am going to play with that this weekend but it's scary because my carrier is definitely not tight and a tighter carrier was working fine before I put the ULE in.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
...my carrier is definitely not tight and a tighter carrier was working fine before I put the ULE in.

is the bigger carrier leaking at all?
if you're having bolt stick problems i think it goes without saying that you should run the biggest carrier you can without it leaking and also the heaviest spring while still being able to have the gun fire...

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

OK, got mine working now. It needed some serious lubing which I guess means it requires a little more attention in that department than it did before the ULT. I got a fill (finally) and had changed the carrier already as I mentioned and lubed everything. It must have been that the bolt was not fully resetting because of stick so the sear wouldn't reset, and when I gassed it up the sear was being held down by the bolt. So for those of you with the same issue, try that. Kind of scary a mag requires that much lubing now because I do oil it regularly.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Kind of scary a mag requires that much lubing now because I do oil it regularly.

i noticed that too...
hopefully once it's well broken in, it won't need as much attention...still it's not that bad...drop or 2 of oil before playing for the day
atleast we don't have to mess with sear lug adjustments or timing rods :D

[AkumA]

so is it certain that the ULE trigger needs serious lubing to stop the issue?

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Lube the oring in the power tube and also make sure it is the loosest possible without leaking, lube the ULT and make sure to get the oil in the center of the orings, it is a tight fit and this is where it is needed. This is what resolved my issue, and the important part to note is that my setup was fine before the ULT but due to the lower operating pressure on the on/off the oring causing pin stick is easier.

[BlackVCG]

The higher quality oil you use, the less frequently you'll have to oil your gun. Autolube is an OK oil, but it in my opinion it doesn't cut it in a higher performance Mag setup that has LX and ULT. With both of those setups, the fit of the o-rings and how smooth things are moving is very critical to keeping the gun running well and reliable.

The problem with autolube is that it drys out the o-rings and the oil itself drys out and doesn't keep things lubed.

Ever since I've been using KC Trouble Free oil, my o-rings stay as clean looking as they were when they were brand new and I never have gun issues that are caused by an inadequate amount of oil.

If you use autolube, do you ever wonder why your o-rings look all brown and dried out and brand new o-rings in parts kit are nice and clear?

[Jerhew]

im also very fond of the lube that ats uses and sells with their markers(at-85...) it also keeps your o-rings nice and looking like new...not all brown and dry
unfortunately i don't know if they just buy a brand name oil and repackage it as "ats lube"
autolube, the lube palmer sends out with their markers and probably most other lubes that come stock with pb markers are probably just plain airtool oil i imagine...
not really sure though...hrm
someone ought to do a thread on lubes...
they are very important to your guns reliability and consistancy...

[afrankart]

Has anyone with an adjustable noticed any increase in reactivity and decrease in chuffing at higher output levels. My Dynaflow should be here tomorrow and I am hoping to notice a difference in the way it feels.

[Jerhew]

yeah slightly...
im running mine at around 900psi and it's great
with my rear trigger stop i dont chuff anyway
but even without the trigger stop the reactivity is good enough to keep it to a minimum
heck once you learn your trigger, you barely ever chuff...
and even when i have, i still havent broken a ball or double fed

[afrankart]

Seems to me that when I chuff, there is usually just enough pressure on the bolt to roll the ball right out of the tip, so I haven't broken any balls yet. i love this trigger, but was having some small problems with bolt stick. To remedy that, I have purchased some KC troublefree-I was wusing Gold cup, and a new Dynaflow tank. I am happy with it at 750 psi, I was just trying to find out if I can expect even better performance at 900 psi or so. I hope so, and isn't it funny how some people can justify spending $400 to get a $50 mod working at its best?

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by afrankart
justify spending $400 to get a $50 mod working at its best?
lmao
funny
no
it's perfectly reasonable :)

[sps16]

is the ult really worth it?

[Steelrat]

I tried it on Mike's mag. I'd have to say no, though it did feel a bit smoother than a normal mag.

[Jerhew]

Originally posted by sps16
is the ult really worth it?

well put it this way
YES!
but there are some things to consider...
it's good if you like having more control over how your trigger feels, if you like to tinker a bit...you wont get it right on the first try...


I tried it on Mike's mag. I'd have to say no, though it did feel a bit smoother than a normal mag.

this is the biggest problem with the ult...
if it's not set up well, it won't seem so great
i was wary of it myself but it's well worth it, especially for the price...

[afrankart]

I have absolutely no regrets about getting it. In fact, I can shoot considerably faster than with my normal on/off. At first I had some problems, and after a lot of fine tuning, It works perfectly for me. Although I don't know if I myself would put it in a classic.

[sps16]

thats kinda what i figured, on yaggy's mag it was pretty nice

[afrankart]

Alright, I got a chance to try it out with my dynaflow and some KC lube. at 900 psi, and very well lubed, I could both test the level 10 and shortstroke and there was no more bolt-stick. Now though, I have to do some re-tuning of the ULT because it was very obvious that the extra 150 psi I am cramming in there developed one really nice sweetspot.:D I am out of air for now, so no more testing till this weekend. One thing I forgot was that I also changed to the next larger carrier and up to the middle spring. All of these changes has made this upgrade quite a bit better than I had expected. I couldn't ask for more.

[stondroopy]

ok,i would like to do this upgrade myself but if im totally lost or screw up can i send it to someone to set it up?

[afrankart]

Man, some kindergarteners could probably install this right. It is very easy.

[stondroopy]

hmm well thers a kid down the street but i think he is in 2nd grade :D hey im gonna order one today so hopefully all goes well

[kiwi n0ddy]

Hey.
After reading this whole thread, very informative by the way. I was wondering what the general consensus is on whether I should get the ULT trigger.
I run a classic mag, but its got the 8-hole turbo drilling mod. So I don't really experience any shoot down at the moment. I was thinking of buying a booyah frame or centerflag hyperframe for my mag, but didn't want to deal with some finicky POS electro-frame for my baby. I'm thinking about getting a X-valve upgrade sometime in the very near future. But I was thinking of getting the ULT first. Basically, this mod sounds really badass and I need at least one person to say "just buy the damn thing" and I will. Oh hey, whats the best lube to use on this thing? I do just fine using gold cup now, but after reading this thread I think I'll have to upgrade to something a little more serious to avoid funny sticking probs etc.. would DOW 33 work? imagine for a second I know nothing about such things.
Thanks.
This forum kicks ***, and Tom Kaye is some kind of paintball god.

[Jerhew]

personally i'd wait and just save for the xvalve
i havent tried it on a classic and some people have claimed to have good results but others say its waay to easy to short stroke

btw don't use dow33 on a mag...
dow is nice for cocker and shocker bolts... thats basically it...
it's too heavy to use on a mag
you want the lightest oil possible
people seem to be having good luck with KC
i personally use ats lube(came with my at-85)

[afrankart]

Just buy the dang thing... after you buy an X-valve.
Yeah, and douse it with lotsa KC troublefree lube.

[trex]

Now that I've got everything tuned up (KC trouble free and centerflag hyperflow at about 950 psi) I'm extremely happy with the ULT. Played last night and it absolutely rips, no breaks or double feeds, no bolt sticking. Might have to take out a shim, because there was a VERY nice sweet spot!

Trex

[cledford]

All ULT owners/users - please respond to the "number of shims" survey I've posted in the Tech forum.

The link is : http://www.automags.org/forums/show...threadid=104880

Thanks!

-Calvin

[Neo-Gp]

Link not working

[drx975]

For everyone who has a regular valve (like classic, or A.I.R.) how is the ULE working? I am one of the few who are trying this mod on a standard valve and I need some more responses becuase mine is coming hopefully by friday, and Im playing on Sunday. I want to get everything straight so when I get there I know what to expect and what to do.

So far it seems like the people who have the mod on a classic valve (2 people as far as Im aware) got it to work with a lot of shims...is this right? I know there will be a problem with the recharge rate but the way I see it, if we just throw in the most amount of shims it should shorten the pin enough that it wont matter that much. Of course Im not looking to get 15 bps with this, just a lighter pull that enables me to shoot a burst of like 15 @ a rate of 13 bps... In fact I only shoot as fast as I possibly can once in awhile. Will this style fit the ULT for a A.I.R. valve?

[cledford]

Originally posted by Neo-Gp
Link not working

Sorry - not sure what went wrong - here it is again...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104880

-Calvin

[trxtr]

Tom has posted that the ult Will go into a classic valve and Will do what it's made to (lighten the trigger pull). HOWEVER, due to the valve's lack of reactivity, it WILL shortstroke. Alot of shims will help with this, but not eliminate it.

[drx975]

Got it, I got my ULT yesterday and Im gonna try it out this weekend and I'll let those of you who have a Classic Valve know how it works when I get back. Right now I have 2 LVL X shims in and 4 ULT shims... I still have 1 ULT left and 1 LVL X left, but I might need that last LVL X shim.

[the larch]

Well, I've put this thing in a micromag with an xvalve, , level10, intelligrip, and warp. Last weekend, I started converting my team to the wisdom of AGD. I haven't even upped the pressure yet to increase reactivity and I am stunned. There is a spot on the trigger that just causes this thing to rip. Spent alot of time tuning it, but it was sooo worth it. Really consistant too. Definantly want to just drop the money on the KC trouble free lube though.
This thing is going to be my main tourney gun for the forseeable future. Awesome THank you Tom.:D :D :D

[chizle97]

im gettin a hyperframe for my classic and i was wonderin if the ult would really work since the reactivity would not be needed with the hyperframe. ive not gotten an honest answer yet. also i think it would cut down on battery use.

[the larch]

Have you considered getting an x-valve instead of a hyper frame? You can trade in your classic valve and pay $225 and get the xvalve. It comes with a XL I personally think that upgrading from classic valve to x-valve is a better upgrade than going to a hyper frame. imho.

[drx975]

imho? actually, its not an opinion but a fact,,hahaha.. but seriously, you would get a Level 10 (absolutely necessary in all cases, its just too awesome to pass up, no joke) and a valve that would really enable you to fire just as fast as a HyperFrame...also...those frames fall apart eventually, and usually dont work that well..

I know electronics are the cutting edge of paintball technology right now, but you have to understand that we havent found a way to make them reliable yet...people only pretend that they are reliable...I see at least one electronic related problem each time I play, and Ive had my problems with my ricochet too. However, mechnical parts are almost invincible if you take care of them right, which basically just includes oiliing the right parts and keeping it clean.

Trust me, the Xvalve is not only worth more than a HyperFrame but it will definately give you much better results.

[chizle97]

well its too late i already have it i just wanted to know if the ult would help.

[the larch]

Not really, The whole purpose of the ule is to lighten the trigger pull. Since with a hyper frame, your finger will no longer have a mechanical link to the on/off, it probably won't help at all. I would save up and shop for a retro, or x valve. Something that can recharge quicker so that you don't end up with any shoot down.

[reefer madness]

if i upgrade my classic rt with the ule+x-valve deal will i be able to use the ult trigger mod?

[Dayspring]

ACTUALLY-

The ULT solves one of the problems the Hyperframes had- the solenoid couldn't push the on/off pin.

With the reduced pressure on the pin, the noid can now do it's job.

And yes. You can play with the dwell a little on the Hyperframe to save some battery life.


Originally posted by the larch
Not really, The whole purpose of the ule is to lighten the trigger pull. Since with a hyper frame, your finger will no longer have a mechanical link to the on/off, it probably won't help at all. I would save up and shop for a retro, or x valve. Something that can recharge quicker so that you don't end up with any shoot down.

[the larch]

Yes, the ult trigger works with the x-valve quite nicely.
I also suggest reading this thread. http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105646

[RagingFalcon]

Does anybody else have this problem? with the ULT if i try to find a sweet spot i end up short stroking 10 times a second. not really sure what to do. for now i went back to the stock on/off. thanks for any suggestions

[greenkill]

I have a Xvalve, and when i installed my ULT, i removed my current on/off, and the oring at the bottom. When I first gas'ed up, it fired by itself, but then the on/off wouldn't reset, it'd say depress in the valve. The instructions said if it wouldn't fire keep adding shims to it does. So I added all 5 ULT shims, and same result. I then proceeded to remove 4 ULT shims, and add 2 LX shims, 2 ULT shims so that'd be equivalent to 6 ULT shims. Same thing. I added another shim and the same problem. I'm out of shims and ideas of what to do... Any suggestions?

And I made sure that each time I installed the on/off that the holes were lining up 1 hole to the bolt, 1 to the back of the valve, and one each to each of the sides of the valve.

[xmaglover00420]

I've ocasionally had my selenoid stick in my xmag. Sometimes I can fire it once in manual and it fires after that, but it has stuck before and not come loose. When I clean out my on/off pin it usually helps but it'll still do it from time to time. It seems like the ULT will help this, but will it cause any shoot-down at high ROF? I have a flatline reg and can turn up the pressure. I like the idea of the trigger pull in manual being closer to the pull in electronic mode, but don't want to sacrifice being able to shoot a rope.

[Joni]

If i get a X-valve and ULT to my classic, is it enough with at rev, or should i get an evo II?

[Jerhew]

i personally think a rev will be fine..
i don't think i've had any problems...
i've had a few chuffs but i think that was mainly from me short stroking
an Evo would be overkill in this case(plus i don't like how they sit on the gun)i've been considering a reloader kit for my rev though...

[headcase]

OK, I've done some searching, and haven't really found the answer I'm looking for.

from BlackVCG's original post


This on/off assembly can fit but is NOT recommended for the following:

E-Mags w/ double o-ring top
Micro E-Mags
MiniMag AIR Valves
68Automag Valves
Classic Automag Valves
HyperMags
SmartMags


I understand that the ULT will not work well in the last four of the list because they don't have the RT effect and do not recharge fast enough. But what is the problem with the e-mag versions?

Thanks for your time.

[Jerhew]

the smaller pin allows for less flow which will slow down e/x-mags...
the reason it doesn't affect rt/x valved guns is because they aren't as fast as e/x-mags

im not totally clear how apparent this is, but that is the reason that was given.

[headcase]

Originally posted by Jerhew
the smaller pin allows for less flow which will slow down e/x-mags...
the reason it doesn't affect rt/x valved guns is because they aren't as fast as e/x-mags

im not totally clear how apparent this is, but that is the reason that was given.

So the problem isn't the valve itself, but the marker it is in? The old E-mag valve would be just fine in a mech marker?

[Jerhew]

well ya the old emag valve is just an rt valve...
just as the x-mag valve is an x-valve found in the newer rt-pros(or upgraded classics/minis...etc)
--technically speaking there really is only 2 different valves...ones with and without a reactive trigger--

the problem is the rate of fire differences between mechanical and electronic markers

[headcase]

Originally posted by Jerhew
well ya the old emag valve is just an rt valve...
just as the x-mag valve is an x-valve found in the newer rt-pros(or upgraded classics/minis...etc)
--technically speaking there really is only 2 different valves...ones with and without a reactive trigger--

the problem is the rate of fire differences between mechanical and electronic markers

The way I read the first post is that the only valves that are supposed to use the ULT are the newest aluminum valves regardless of application(understanding that the ULT shouldn't be used in E/X-Mags) My question is, what is the internal difference between the old E-mag(2 o-ring versions) and the X-valves. It seems apparent to me that the change was not just a different material

[Jerhew]

nope.
as long as you have 2 o-rings(and aren't using it in an e/x-mag) you're good to go.
other than material, there is no noteworthy difference between the two

in fact i milled out my old 1 o-ring rt valve(basically making it a 2 o-ring valve) and dropped the ult in...works perfectly.

[tdogreb]

just got my ult. should the on off pin go all the way through the on off support mine pin will not. also when i got the ult the pin was stuck in the on off support and would not come out.had to use pliers to get it out.please help

[xmaglover00420]

ok,
the x valve is an aluminum rt valve, right? then why would the ult work well in a rt pro and not an xmag? I've seen an old rt shoot 20 bps. if the ult will restrict flow, then it woulnd't be a good upgrade for those either. someone please tell me what the hell is going on.

[BlackVCG]

Regarding the issue of valves the ULT can be used in...

All RT valves recharge the same. The problem with using the ULT in an E-Mag is the weight of the sear assembly and the slower recharge force of the ULT slows down the gun considerably. If you have a double-o-ring E-Mag valve in a regular mechanical gun, the ULT will be fine.

So to clear things up:

The ULT should NOT be used in-

E-Mags running in E-Mode
AIR valves

It should be used in any mechanical gun with an RT valve that has a double o-ring on/off.


tdogreb-

The pin is not suppose to go all the way through the support piece. The support moves in unison with the pin. It was stuck to the pin because from the factory AGD puts a bit of loctite on the pin so you don't lose the pin support. Just be sure that when you take out the valve you don't drop the pin support piece and lose it.

xmaglover-

The RT-Pro valve was drilled for just one o-ring. The hole needs to be drilled deeper and not have a step in it so that the ULT will fit. Look at my pictures at the beginning of this thread and you'll see the difference. Just get it bored out by someone that can do it properly and the RTP valve will accept the ULT trigger.

[headcase]

Thanks Black, that clears everything up for me.

[USAF-Flyboy with a Mag]

ok the issue I'm having is when I put in the ult on/off I get a leak. It seems to be from the bolt not resetting because I can put my finger in and push the bolt back. If I put the original on/off back in the gun works fine...bolt resets and no leaks what-so-ever.

My setup:
classic w/xvalve
68 4500psi pure energy tank output is 850 i believe.
intelliframe
ule body

["the FitZ"]

I need to know something, will this actually increase my speed or just response and will it have any lag(dwell time) because i know it lowers the reactivity of it. installing in Xvalve.

["the FitZ"]

does the ult actually increase speed or is it just response and will it have any "lag" or dwell time to it because I know it lowers the reactivity. Installing in Xvalve.

[Jerhew]

it lightens the trigger pull.
as far as increasing your speed...
well do you shoot faster with a lighter trigger?

yes it also lowers the reactivity...there's no dwell or anything like that
it's feel is comparable to a lightly sprung mech cocker hinge trigger..
the lighter pull and lowered reactivity generally means that it's easier to shoot fast but also easier to short stroke
and by the way, just like any trigger, you have to "learn it", which means you'll probably short stroke it occasionally until you get used to the feel

["the FitZ"]

ok im getting one, thanks for the help.

[wish-had-a-mag]

Pardon my stupidity, but will a ULT work on a Classic grip frame.(I am eyeing that RTpro package but dont have the dough for a 100 Intelliframe.

[Jerhew]

yes because the mod is to the on/off switch which is mounted in the valve body...it doesn't change any actual part on the triggerframe itself so it doesnt matter what frame you have

[decimator4]

I hope this hasnt been asked yet, but I searched and couldnt find it. I got my RT Pro for christmas with included ULT. When I finally get my nitro filled, It is going full auto. I took out shims til it had one ULT shim in, and it still went fully auto. After a few shots, it stopped shooting and wouldnt shoot again. I have no idea whats wrong, I'm really agrivated as this seems to always happen to me, where my stuff never works, even when I dont tinker with it. If sum1 has a solution to this problem and could answer fast, I would appreciate it.

[BlackVCG]

Make sure the field strip screw is tightened with an allen wrench.

[the larch]

Yup. If it's just fingered tightened. that could happen.
perhaps make sure the on/off is pushed in snugly. Is your tank a preset hpa?

[decimator4]

ya, the tank is preset at 850 psi. I'll try and see if its the feild strip screw, but I think I tightened it with a wrench before...

[the larch]

did you by chance, mess with the trigger rod length? That could cause this problem also..maybe.:confused:

[decimator4]

I didnt mess with the length... I think tightening the screw may have worked, but I will have to shoot it a little more to be able to tell.... thanks for the help so far

[decimator4]

Ya, I had to tighten the screw as tight as it can go, and it works. I feel like such an idiot for getting mad when it was sumthing so little. Ok, well thanks alot for helping me

[SpdElemts]

this may been asked already but i dont feel like searching fot it so bare wit me. Can the rt on/off assem fit in the Emag valve and shoot properly? The emag valve is not going to be used in the emag.

thanks

[hAppy]

Originally posted by SpdElemts
this may been asked already but i dont feel like searching fot it so bare wit me. Can the rt on/off assem fit in the Emag valve and shoot properly? The emag valve is not going to be used in the emag.

thanks yes, b/c an rt valve is an rt valve, and a ULT will work in any rt valve

i got a question! will you get enough "reactiveness" for you to sweetspot on about an output of 800 psi?

[the larch]

prolly not.

[silverstreakfla]

I have a classic mag, with x valve, stock trigger, ult, and a 68 4000 tank. What would be a good starting point shim wise in the level 10 and the ULT?

[Boobie817]

I just bought my ULT with my X-valve. When i put in the ULT it doesnt do anything. I can push the trigger all the way in but it doesnt do anything. Its not charging or anything. When i put the old on/off in it works fine. No leaks or anything. it works great without the ULT. I have a preset tank, a PMI 68/45, its full. i tried all the shims, 1 shim, no shims, everything. please help, this thing sucks. Very disappointed. :(

["the FitZ"]

Got mine yesterday, it works good. But I have a few problems w/ it. 1st: the bolt sticks forward just slightly sometimes(no venting).2nd: should I have take the smaller white oring out w/ the old on/off. I did and it has no leaks i couldn't get enough shims in with that oring on. i believe i have 3 ULT shims. I also have lvl 10. 3rd: what is a good way to keep fomies in. The cost is adding up. I use super glue.

Still short-stroking but i can get past that. It's in a minimag AIR valve. a new one if that makes a difference.

Thanks,

[BlackVCG]

There shouldn't be any other o-rings in the on/off other than the ones that are held in on the ULT assembly. The one at the base of the on/off, the one in the top that the pin seals on and the black one inside the two pieces.

Bolt stick with ULT is usually a result of not enough shims or it not being broke in enough.

[PaintSkater00]

How can I tell if I have a SS or aluminum valve without taking out the on/off?

[melster]

If your valve is anodized, it's aluminum.

["the FitZ"]

My ULT is acting up again. It has a small leak holding pressure against the bolt. So that is why it sticks. It doesnt stick so much anymore but it is shortstroking when it shouldn't. I cycle it fully and it short strokes every other shot because of the leak. I have tried all the shims, no shims, everything. The gun won't function w/ less than 2 in it. i have 3 now. 4 makes no difference. should I have ALL ULT and ALL lvl 10 I have left in. I believe that would be 8 shims.

thanks,
Jared

["the FitZ"]

Also, my on/off pin is very slow about coming out. I am using a PE 850psi preset.

[drx975]

Ok Jared I have a minimag AIR valve, ULT, and Lvl 10 too... and everything works with me.

Here's what I did.. I would have to check, but I believe I have 2 Lvl 10 shims in the Lvl 10 setup (check your carrier size and be sure that its not leaking there). I have 4 ULT shims and 2 Lvl 10 shims in the ULT valve, and everything else is properly oiled and all. Try that setup if you havent already and see what happens...be sure to oil everything REALLY ridiculously in that ULT.

What I've noticed (by the way I have a preset 850 too) with my ULT in this valve and with my air tanks is that the pin DOES come out slowly. The thing is, I have so many shims in that it doesnt matter--the pin shoots out far enough only because I have put effectively 8 ULT shims in. Putting extra shims in means shortening the essential length of the on/off pin, meaning it needs to return less distance each time, thus less short stroking. With no shims in, you have absolutely no hope of that pin returning to its initial position--the gun cant handle pushing it for that long of a time. If we were running an RT, it would push on that pin until it went back to its normal position...AIR valves dont do this.

With your setup (even 4 ULT shims) you will STILL encounter this problem. So to counter this, make sure you have that pin oiled very very very well, make sure it slides in and out easily and freely, and put 4 ULT shims in and 2 Lvl 10 shims...if you find that its working better but not enough..put more in..just also make sure that the on/off assembly is screwed in tightly.

FYI... 1 ULT shim is 1/2 the width of a Lvl 10 shim....so 2 ULT shims = 1 Lvl 10 shim

[nate2k191]

Holy Shaith. I had a classic 68. then i got a x-valve and ult. intalled them at the same time and tried it out, my gun was acting out of breath, i'd get 1 or 2 shots off full power then it would just puff.

i messed with my x forever to no avail, then i thought it might be ult so i put in the regular on/off and it worked kinda well, so i went lookin for a ult forum found this, and read some then realized i prolly need more shims in the ult and BAM!!@@#!@%#%!#%!#$^ it works like a charm, my gun is beast now! woot. 5 shims works great for me. GG ULT thread

["the FitZ"]

thanks drx975 that shim setup works great. everything is fine except the o-ring on top of the on/off leaks only sometimes. I'll just go pick a parts kit and fix that.

[RT77]

Ok guys my gun will not even shoot now...it shoots once if I smack it with the palm of my hand on the back of the gun.I had six shims and there was way to much response, I have 5 shims in it now and it does not shoot. Its like the trigger rod does not have enough pressure or something, to make things worse a guy at my field said he could adjust the trigger rod and make it work so he did but it did not work so now that maybe messed up too.....please help.
I'm running a me'lee 68ci. 3000 and I have the stock single trigger frame on.

["the FitZ"]

r u running in a classic, and by the way dont mess w/ the trigger rod.

[Sk8ermog]

Hey I just had my ULT cleaned up and tuned by my local pro shop. I decided to take her for a spin and video it. Here is a link to the video: CLICK HERE FOR MY ULT VIDEO (http://www.rossgunniv.com/PaintballCollection/main.html)

That's my collection site, but just scroll down and you'll see the links for the video under my ULE Mag. I think the ULT is sweet, but it's way to fast for me. I'm looking to trade it for a stock On/Off for my X-valve and like $30. Also does anyone know if a classic on/off will work in a X-valve?

[Zedaine]

I just have a few questions, I will be getting my RT mag from AGD in a few days with everything installed and tested by them, everything should work correctly, but if the ULT isn't how I would like it then I would probably have to add shims, right? If I am getting the Mag with the UTL already installed by them how many will be on the ULT and how many extras will I get, is it the same 2 on the ULT and 3 extras like when you get the ULT kit?

[the larch]

Well, assuming that they actually tune and test it, Then there is no telling how many shims they may have on it. It seems that every mag is just a little different and just requires a little patience and some air to tune. Remember if you have level 10 shims, they are exactly double the thickness of one ULT and can be used in their place. Do you have an adjustable reg on your tank?

[Zedaine]

Nope my tank is preset at 850 psi.

So if they tune and test it at the factory, should I already have a great reactivity?

[the larch]

Well, Alot of your reactivity actually depends on your tank. Higher pressures often increase your reactivity.
A ule trigger mod actually reduces your reactivity while making the trigger lighter. You have to just juggle the variables to find a set up that works for your marker.
If your marker is set up and shooting, I would add ule shims until it went into run away and then back off one shim. I would then start turning the input pressure up to see if I could get better reactivity. I actually got mine to were the tension in my finger would allow the trigger to bounce. I got some VERY respectable rates of fire from that.

[Zedaine]

Alright, thanks for the help.

[Matches]

I have set up my mini mag just as "drx975" described and it is working great.
Im using a standard Minimag AIR valve, with a 6 hole mod in the back.
850 PSI preset.
LX bolt with 2 shims & medium spring.
ULT with 4 standard shims & 2 LX shims.
I found that is is easier to short stroke if you are not use to the trigger, but the lightness of the trigger pull is fantastic.

cheers

:D
Ive allso had reports from friends using a standard valve with a hyperframe and the ULT works really well in the system.

[Mag89]

Do I remove the O-ring in my X-valve before installing the ULT?????

[ChucktheMAGician]

Originally posted by Mag89
Do I remove the O-ring in my X-valve before installing the ULT????? If you're talking about the 2 in the bottom when you take the stock on/off assembly out, yes.

[Mag89]

Thanks man

[the electrician]

I have a few questions about this upgrade.

first off, the shims. they go inbetween the double o-rings and the on/off assembly? I'm assuming thier job is to keep the pin from going in too far, thus keeping the recharge rate as high as possible, without "runaway" or leaking.
so what they really do is lower the on/off assembly, which means the back of the sear hits the bottom of the on/off keeping the sear from pushing the pin in to far. if so, isn't the hardened steel sear hitting the bottom of the brass on/off everytime you pull the trigger?

as for the new pin:
I take it it has a new smaller diameter head and a smaller reduced diameter shaft? if so, what are the new measurements?
I know the original RT pin is about .117" at the head and reduced shaft is about .078" in diameter.

if anybody could answer these question I would definitely appreciate it.

I'm working on an on/off design that would produce the same light trigger pull for a standard valve, but not adversely effect the recharge rate.

["the FitZ"]

The ULT on/off screws into two pieces (on/off top and bottom) the shims go in between where it screws together. the hardened steel sear touches the hole in your body and not the on/off so there is no harm there.
What AGD did with this on/off is shave mass off so the air would have "less to grab and push down", that's the only way I can explain it. The head is just big enough to shut off air from the top and I don't know the measurements. It would be impossible to make one better. If it was they would have. You might be able to make one lighter but the reactivity would be killed, and you might also be able to make one more reactive but heavier. But not both, to my knowledge anyway.

Hope this helps

[the electrician]

the shims make the on/off assembly longer. no matter where you put them. on top or in the middle. this means you using the bottom of the on off as a type of sear stop. to keep it from pushing the pin in farther than you want.

the back of the sear has a "nub" that sticks up and that is the part that pushes the on/off pin in. this "nub" can and does go through the hole in the body. if you trigger pull allows it, it will go all the way up and "top out" on the bottom of the on/off assembly.

if you read my post you will see that I understand what they did to make the trigger pull lighter. less dia on the top of the pin means less of a force factor, and less force created by the applied psi. now if the smaller bottom part of the pin has also been reduced from the original RT design(.072" actually, not .078") this means the initial part of a trigger pull will be very light.

impossible to make one better? I'm not trying to. like I said, this ULT is not recommended for the standard or classic valve. the reason being the pressure on top of the on/off is not enough to make the pin reset the sear completely everytime and this can cause bolt and sear wear problems along with just plain not functioning properly.

so like I said, I'm looking to design a version that would help the STANDARD valve. a lighter trigger pull without sacrificing too much on the recharge rate. I don't care about reactivity.
this is why I'm looking for the measurements of the ULT pin. somebody, anybody with a ULT and some calipers.
I want to know what to start with.

[the electrician]

I've been testing different things to see what is possible for improving the standard valve trigger pull. I've been using a modified RT on/off.

but the reactivity created, kicks the trigger back only about half way. the reduced shaft of the bottom of the on/off pin does not consistently return the trigger when it has to work against the wieght of your finger. this will end up causing accelerated bolt and sear wear.

I do have a better understanding of how the shims in the ULT work. normally, the on/off is approx. .555" long and the hole in the valve body where it goes is approx. .590" deep with the o-rings in it. when the the gun is pressurized, the o-rings and the on/off are pushed down by the air pressure until the on/off is stopped by the body.
this means that the pin can go up into the o-rings way past the point of sealing.

with the ULT, shims lengthen the on/off so that you can make the o-rings stay in place. this holds them up higher. so that the sear does not push the pin way past the point of sealing. instead it can be made so that the pin just seals. thus increasing the recharge rate to it's maximum point.

with the homemade e-mag, http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=125891

I've been using the modified RT on/off along with a quad o-ring for the on/off top o-ring and a soft buna o-ring for th e small o-ring inside the on/off. by using lvl10 shims with it, I've been able to increase the recharge rate to the point where the standard valve can do 18 bps, without drop-off. the quad o-ring definitely helps. it makes it possible for the pin to open to a larger area of flow, faster, because the o-ring seal is closer to the edge of the o-ring.

the modified RT on/off works well with the e-mag mod because the pin does not have to push back and return the trigger. it does not feel the wieght of you fingers. it also makes it possible to use much less force to actuate the sear. by fine tunning the on/off a high rate of fire is attainable even when using a lvl 10 that slows the bolt down and uses more air.

on a side note, after trying quad o-rings on the the lvl 10, I'd say they don't realy help any more than using plain buna-n o-rings.

[SpdElemts]

Just wondering what does that got to do with a ULT?
Anyways your custom electro grip is bada**. Got stuff man..

[the electrician]

I knew somebody was going to say that.
sorry, I went off topic.

I'm still interested in the size of the ULT on/off pin if anybody has one and some calipers....

[SpdElemts]

Hah i wasnt trying to be rude or anything. Um when i get back home ill measure the size of the pin for yah. I should get home around 10 or 11 PM

[the electrician]

man that would be great SpeedElemts.

I'm trying to whip up an idea for a lighter trigger for all those standard valve users out there. (something that doesn't involve electronics or heavy modification)

thanks.

[mountainbob84]

THis is mostly pointed at silent Death. YOu said that you are running an ULT on a Mag Classic, I too HAve a ULT and a Classic but seem to be having a good bit of difficulty w/ them together. With the ULT in I can shoot about once and then it takes any where from a 1/2 second to five seconds for my trigger to pop back during which time it hisses unmercifully. WTHeck is going on? did you have this problem? if so how did you fix it? I really want this triger but don't really want to buy just an X-Valve (poor college student) can you help me out? My setup in full is a modified bench mark trigger frame (was single now double, filed out so that the sear rod type thing could fit, trigger stop screw installed) Classic valve, LX, an ULE, and of course HPA (800psi preset Centerflag reg. And no NAYSAYERS, I know it is not a recomended setup, but I'm looking for ways to make it work not suggestions to just get an RT.

P.S. does anyone know when AGD's going to be getting some more of those new Custom RT's in stock anyway?

[Matches]

mountainbob84
Im using a standard Minimag AIR valve, with a 6 hole mod in the back.
850 PSI preset.
LX bolt with 2 shims & medium spring.
ULT with 4 standard shims & 2 LX shims.
I put about 1000 balls through it on the weekend and two things i noticed was; When you dry fire the marker at a rapid pace it will allways 'chuff' or short stroke. As soon as i was playing with a full hopper it did not miss a beat.
The second problem i encountered was a soon as the air system went below 850 psi it would not reacharge propely and started short stroking again. (This isnt a real problem for me as i have a 4500 psi bottle.)
As mentioned through the post you have to oil the hell out of it and the ULT does require some breaking in.
:)

[Matches]

Just a word of warning for anybody using a ULT & a level-10 in a classic AIR valve.
I finished using my marker last night and was pulling it apart to clean and oil it. (I had allso removed the air bottle, bottom line and all the hoses from the marker.)
My level 10 and ULT both have a very snug fit with the o-rings being used and as i found out shortly after, this leaves a partial air charge in the front part of the reg. On dis-assembly the on/off valve blew out of the reg at high velocity and smacked me in the head, then bounce off the roof and into the garage door.
Im am now sporting a 1/2 inch gash across my forhead and im lucky it didnt blind me in one eye.
NOTE FOR FUTURE: allways use eye protection when using compressed air.
Ive never encountered this problem before and ive been using automags for the past 10 years.
P.S. If you think this is piss funny, then you should have been there, my girlfriend allmost wet herself laughing too. :D

[BagelBoy2004]

Ask TK about this. I thought that when you pull the trigger to remove the valve from the rail and z-groove, all of the air should be discharged safely.

[Matches]

Just an update on the problem with using the LX and the ULT in a Classic Valve;
I was at a Tournament on the weekend and the same problem occured with another teams auto-mag but this time the ULT on-off hit him directly in the eye. He has been taken to the hospital to see an eye specialist, as his eye had internal bleeding behind the retina. :(
Please use caution in the future.

[Dueydog]

Originally posted by Matches
Just an update on the problem with using the LX and the ULT in a Classic Valve;
I was at a Tournament on the weekend and the same problem occured with another teams auto-mag but this time the ULT on-off hit him directly in the eye. He has been taken to the hospital to see an eye specialist, as his eye had internal bleeding behind the retina. :(
Please use caution in the future.

[Chowee21]

ok, on my ult kit, i had the center blakc oring and another oring left over on the kit, do i need to use the black oring for the ULT to work and where do i put it if i do

[BlackVCG]

It goes inbetween the two halves of the ULT. Unscrew the ULT by pulling on both halves and unscrewing them from each other. Look inbetween the two halves to see if you have the small o-ring there. If there's already one in there, the other one is just a backup o-ring.

[chubb]

hey when u stated in the 1st post about the minnimag regular vavles gettign short stroked realy easaly umm how fast do u have to go to do that cuz i would like to have a cheaper way to lighten my mag untilll i get that new non electro

[MagmanLee]

This really isn't a bad problem but my first shot out of a stream seams to be slow. I will pull the trigger and the gun will fire a moment later. The rest of the follow up shots don't have this problem.

[Sickboy]

Hey I know this is kinda dumb, but I'm thinking about getting the ULT on/off setup, but from what people tell me, it kinda defeats the purpose (in my opinion) of the X-Valve. From what i hear, it makes the trigger very light, but less reactive and easier to short stroke. (i know this doesnt matter with the Lvl. 10 and all, but i dont want to kill the reactiveness of the X-Valve)

Anyone have any experiences they can share with me? If i put the ULT in, will it mess up my trigger's bounce-back? Is there a way i can make it lighter without killing that kick-back? thanks.

[cledford]

It's been a while since I played with the ULT and didn't get to go to the IAO class on it.

I set one up for my brother in law yesterday and it works awesome -but has one issue - it seems to always chuff on the first pull after more then a 5-10 second break in firing. Does anyone know off hand what is up? It's an Emag valve drilled out with a ULT on a MM rail and Intelli frame. The body is a stainless no-rise.

Thanks,

-Calvin

[BlackVCG]

Calvin,

Sounds like the infamous LX issue of having too tight of a carrier o-ring.

Check the carrier o-ring fit and make sure it's as loose as possible w/o leaking.

That should fix the problem.

-Steve T.


It's been a while since I played with the ULT and didn't get to go to the IAO class on it.

I set one up for my brother in law yesterday and it works awesome -but has one issue - it seems to always chuff on the first pull after more then a 5-10 second break in firing. Does anyone know off hand what is up? It's an Emag valve drilled out with a ULT on a MM rail and Intelli frame. The body is a stainless no-rise.

Thanks,

-Calvin

[cledford]

Calvin,

Sounds like the infamous LX issue of having too tight of a carrier o-ring.

Check the carrier o-ring fit and make sure it's as loose as possible w/o leaking.

That should fix the problem.

-Steve T.

Thanks Steve!

-Calvin

[Plazmic]

I am having a little trouble getting my ULT to work properly. I've read all through here and seen a few similar issues, but I wanted to spell this out and see if I can get a definite answer.

I have a ULE with X-valve and intelliframe. It works perfectly with the original on/off, but when I put the ULT in, I get what seems to be shoot down in even slow streams of 5 to 7 BPS (don't get it with the regular X-valve on/off), and then a chuff, and occaisionally my bolt will not reset and I have to push it back. My tank is an 88/4500 that is putting out 950psi. I can rip off pretty high BPS with the original x-valve on/off but with the ULT it seems like I run out of air or something.

I suspect that the pin is sticking, so I took the ULT apart and oil the crap out of it. That didn't seem to help.

Oh, I've get 5 ULT shims in.

I hope ya'll have some advice for me, here.

[UltraMag527]

Would this a good combination or not neccessary?

[Plazmic]

Isn't the hyperframe electro? If so, then the ULT is not necessary.

[ZapTheMad]

so like I said, I'm looking to design a version that would help the STANDARD valve. a lighter trigger pull without sacrificing too much on the recharge rate. I don't care about reactivity.
this is why I'm looking for the measurements of the ULT pin. somebody, anybody with a ULT and some calipers.
I want to know what to start with.

Here ya go Electrician. I couldn't get the last two measurements because I'm afraid of bending the pin while taking it apart. Don't know how accurate ym caliper is either, it's digital. Hope this helps.

http://www.iodclan.net/zap/ult-pin.jpg

[spadge67]

hey guys, i've read all the pages of this thread looking for an answer, but i havent gotten a straight one yet....

Am i correct in saying that the on/off assy for the ULT IS(?) the same as the stock on/off assy for the x-valve? i ask this because i want to remove the ULT from my gun, and try the stock on/off, as i bought the gun with the ULT already installed...

thanks for any help

[Plazmic]

hey guys, i've read all the pages of this thread looking for an answer, but i havent gotten a straight one yet....

Am i correct in saying that the on/off assy for the ULT IS(?) the same as the stock on/off assy for the x-valve? i ask this because i want to remove the ULT from my gun, and try the stock on/off, as i bought the gun with the ULT already installed...

thanks for any help

They are not the same, but they are interchangable. There is an o-ring that goes with the stock that you will need to put back if you are taking out the ULT. Make sure you have that.

[spadge67]

thanks a bunch, i appreciate it...

*edit* also, is there going to be another o-ring in the gun i can use as a model when i get another one?

[Plazmic]

thanks a bunch, i appreciate it...

*edit* also, is there going to be another o-ring in the gun i can use as a model when i get another one?

I'm afraid I don't have an answer to that one. It is very possible since AGD tends to use identical parts throughout the gun when they can. Try calling AGD tech support. They can tell you right off. You could also try PMing BlackVCG or Tunaman. They might have an answer on that one.

Click Here for AGD Tech Support info. (http://store.airgun.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=catalog.catalog&categoryID=16)

[spadge67]

ok, heres the pic from agd's website, is the oring you mentioned the one on the bottom of the on/off? (left side in the pic) casue thats exactly what my stock on/off looks like

http://store.airgun.com/images/product/107.jpg

[Plazmic]

ok, heres the pic from agd's website, is the oring you mentioned the one on the bottom of the on/off? (left side in the pic) casue thats exactly what my stock on/off looks like

http://store.airgun.com/images/product/107.jpg

No, there's one more o-ring that sits down in the on/off hole in the X-valve with the standard on/off. This o-ring must be removed to install the ULT on/off. It's a little bigger than that one on the end.

I have mine at home with my original on/off. I'll take it out tonight and see if I can find a match for it in any of the other AGD o-rings that I have.

BlackVCG, Tunaman, can either of you be more specific for him? I'm afraid I don't have the exact info that he needs to get the right part. Thanks, guys!

[Archangel-6]

Ok, I'm up to all 5 ult shims, and a lvl10 shim, that's 7 total (LX=2) No chuffing, or short stroking problems, but not the friggin thing won't reset sometimes......

Valve won't fire with anything less that 4, huffs-chuffs @4...5 shims, and it starts to get better a few chuffs, and some sticking....from there it seems ok, but sticking..the LVL10 is fine it fires forward, and completely retracts. My AA 68/4500 was just filled today.

I also noticed the 5 on up the gun fires upon gas-up....

Your thoughts?

Thanks,

Rob

[Plazmic]

This doesn't sound right at all. It's behaving like a classic valve, not a retro valve.

Have you cleaned and oiled your valve and level 10 lately? It sounds to me like you might have some dirt issues.

Another thought...try tightening the field strip screw a little more. If that doesn't help, then try it only hand tight. I've heard of some retros having issues if the valve is not lined up just right.

[jon-micheal]

will it work on a 68 classic vavle

[spadge67]

sorry to bug you all again, but after reading around, i'm confused, i have the ULT installed, but i'm still getting trigger bounce, they wouldnt let me play today after i drove an hour to the field, because i had trigger bounce. had to use my stingray. was kind apissed

[Plazmic]

sorry to bug you all again, but after reading around, i'm confused, i have the ULT installed, but i'm still getting trigger bounce, they wouldnt let me play today after i drove an hour to the field, because i had trigger bounce. had to use my stingray. was kind apissed

Did they ban all automags or just yours? How about Autocockers? Did they ban those, too? How about Tippmans?

Mags have trigger bounce. It's tournament legal. The ULT has less bounce, but the air still has to push the trigger back. It's not spring loaded or electronic. It just sounds like the people at that field have problems.

However, if you want to reduce the bounce some, try adding a shim to your ULT.

[spadge67]

no, my friend played all day with his a-5 r/t with no problem. there were several cockers there to. i'll try adding a shim, thanks.

[Plazmic]

no, my friend played all day with his a-5 r/t with no problem. there were several cockers there to. i'll try adding a shim, thanks.

I'm surprised that they would not let you use your Mag with the ULT when they are allowing an A-5 with an R/t on it. Is it really THAT bouncy? Is it more so than before you put the ULT on it? The ULT normally drops the reactivity quite a bit.

I can only think that the people at this field have some sort of pre-disposition against Automags and simply didn't want you to use it no matter if it was legal or not.

If you don't mind my asking, where was this field and what's it called?

[Archangel-6]

Thanks to BradAGD, and Potatoboy....I ended up shaving my pin a bit, and running 5ULT, and 1LX shim, and the ULT rips in my Retro! I'm going to shave a but more so I can drop the shim count...Definately a good product, just a B%&#h to tune...

Rob

[Lefty21]

Hey

I should be getting my ult tommorrow but b4 I do just have a few questions, hopefully somebody can help. 1. I was working on 1 shim in my LX and it was sticking. I put two more but didn't get a chance to fine tune cuz I ran out of air. Do you think three is too many? How many should I have in there?

2. Also if my problem is the carrier and not the shims, how do I remove the old carrier from the mainbody to change it? I got the Xvalve, which came standard with the LX so I didn't put the carrier in myself. It seems stuck, tried to pull it out w/a allen key but I don't want to damage anything. :o

[Janitor]

I finally got my ULT to start the install on my valve which was working without problems before I started to install it. I put it in with the 2 shims in it and it started to work ok. Little spongey but working. I tried to add another shim to make it a little softer but then it wouldn't gas up with out leaking out the barrel and going into runaway. So I removed the shim that I added and reinstalled but same results, so I ended up removing all of the shims and trying that. That also leaked and went into runaway. So I installed the old RT valve and it did the same thing. What I found out regarding this was that the field strip screw was being over tightend and causing the on/off to never be able to hold the sear which in turn wouldn't hold the bolt back. So I tried a couple of things and finally figured the field strip screw was the problem. I now just tighten the screw so it is just snug and it seemed to work pretty well.
I obviously don't have it fine tuned yet because it doesn't shoot very well just yet. I installed my old Classic valve which I had never used with my HPA and man that thing rocked way faster then I could fire the Emag valve either with the ULT or without. So that got me thinking what would this thing do with the ULT? Haven't tried that as of yet but I will try it soon.
I must not have something right. How long does it take to break in the ULT, about a 1000 shots or so? Should it be working really well from the start?

I'm running a Classic frame with the Emag valve without lvlX and the ULT with a preset tank.

[Empyreal Rogue]

I got my ULT Kit on Friday then took off on a trip to MD. I tried tuning it but all failed attempts. I just got back home so I have access to a computer.

Here's my problem:

With 2 Shims the marker won't fire, with 1 it won't fire. With 3 it goes Full Auto and I don't want to see what happens when I put all 4 in. Is it the carrier that's problematic? I probably should have read through this but I'm tired right now and didn't feel like it nor have time. :\

[BlackVCG]

Is your sear in good shape?

Do you have the rail bushing in the field strip screw hole?

Are you using ULT shims or LX shims? ULT shims are .005" thick and LX shims are .010" thick.

[Empyreal Rogue]

Is your sear in good shape? Relatively. It's been through three different users over a 2-3 year span.

Do you have the rail bushing in the field strip screw hole? Yes.

Are you using ULT shims or LX shims? ULT shims are .005" thick and LX shims are .010" thick. ULT Shims.

I -think- it's working now though. I guess it just needed to be broken in. It's brand new.

[Bobsbarricades]

It is true. I do have some problem with recharge rate. you probably won't get anymore firepower with this upgrade if you run a classic valve, but once you get the pull down you will hardly ever short stroke. The pull is extremely light though. I love it, but I cant wait to try it in an x-valve.

what is he talking about when he says pull down??

[Plazmic]

what is he talking about when he says pull down??

He means once you get comfortable with the feel of the trigger pull and it comes naturally to you without having to think about it.

[AGDlover]

ok can someone post a pic of a assembled ULT since i'm getting one soon and i want to see what it looks like so i can compare it when i drop mine in

[Plazmic]

ok can someone post a pic of a assembled ULT since i'm getting one soon and i want to see what it looks like so i can compare it when i drop mine in

Well, actually, from the outside it looks just like the standard on/off after it's installed.

[Backyard Bandit]

I'm unsure which type of valve mine is. It says ReTro Valve on it, but the guy I boutght it from said it had seen less than 15 speedball games, and looks dam near new. Is there any way I can tell if it is compadible with the ULT or not? I just took a picture of it if that helps.

Edit: that's not rust, I just havn't cleaned it yet after it's last game so there's still some debry left in it from trees/paint (speedball and woodsball).

[AGDlover]

Well, actually, from the outside it looks just like the standard on/off after it's installed.

but i see it has a big thing at one end of the ON/off pin just wondering witch way it sits. also how would i know theres too many Shims?(note: I'm installing it on my classic valve)

[BlackVCG]

If the back half of the valve is brown/gray and says ReTro Valve and the front half is stainless steel, (silver) then it's an official ReTro Valve with the single o-ring on/off.




I'm unsure which type of valve mine is. It says ReTro Valve on it, but the guy I boutght it from said it had seen less than 15 speedball games, and looks dam near new. Is there any way I can tell if it is compadible with the ULT or not? I just took a picture of it if that helps.

[Plazmic]

but i see it has a big thing at one end of the ON/off pin just wondering witch way it sits. also how would i know theres too many Shims?(note: I'm installing it on my classic valve)

Well, if you're putting it in a Classic valve, you'll probably not have too many shims in there. It takes a butt-load of shims to get it to work in a Classic Valve.

[AGDlover]

i wanna know anyway how many is too many because i plan on starting with the lvl10 shims and working my way up

[AGDlover]

ok i got my lvl10 today and was wondering. does the small black o-ring have to go on??? or doesn't it matter???

[AGDlover]

hey guys the ULT does work in a Classic so AGDJon take that thing where it says "ULT will not work in a Classic" out

[Cool fool!]

hey guys i got my ult in yesterday! i put it in my x-valve and gassed it up. it leaked down the barrel! i put in my x-valve on/off and it works fine. I have 2 ult shims in and i am using the LX carrier with 1 line and 1 dot. Why izzit leakin????????!!!!!! :confused:

Thanks alot.

Paul

[kingclayo]

how do you get the pin out of the on/off top part

[Plazmic]

how do you get the pin out of the on/off top part

Have you unscrewed the on/off?

[BlackVCG]

The on/off top pin is loctited into the big round bottom support piece. You can change out the small black o-ring without ungluing the on/off top pin. To do this, take a dental pick of some sort and pry at the side of the black o-ring until it comes out of the hole. Then take your finger nails and pull up on the o-ring and it will stretch around the on/off pin and then come off.

You can then take the replacement black o-ring that came with your ULT kit and push it onto the pin head and then once it gets onto the skinny part of the on/off pin push down on the top of the on/off pin to seat the o-ring into its pocket.

If you are getting leaks down the barrel from the ULT, try replacing the black o-ring and if that doesn't work, replace the white urethane o-ring around the on/off bottom piece.

[AnArchist_1944]

i have 5 shims and its still kinda slow and keeps short strokeing is there anyway i can add shimms to my LVL 10 or X valve to speed it up

[stevewagner89]

I recently bought the ULT and i got everything ready to go with one shim in, gassed it up, and the trigger didnt reset(didnt let me shoot it) so i tried it with 2 shims, same thing. Tried 3, got one shot of and it didnt reset. Tried 4 shims and nothing happend. So i finally tried 5 shims...still nothing. I am using a classic valve but i thought the only problems with it would be shootdown, not having it not work at all. Please help. Any help would be greatly appriciated.

[Castor Troy]

I have an old valve on my RT Pro (the half alum and half stainless) and just sent it to Brad in Texas to get it drilled. Didn't I hear something about keeping a certain part from my old on/off because the new parts would not fit right?? :dance:



UPDATE!!!!!
Okay, my retro valve was drilled, I added one shim on top of the three already installed and it was shooting great until my tank hit around 1000 psi, when the gun would not recock, and the bolt stayed mid-point, releasing a lot of air. What could this mean???

:cheers:

[Arctic]

I also just got my ULT and I can't get it to work. I have tried 2, 3, and 4 shims (.005) and can't seem to get it right. I have 3 in right now and the bolt sticks. 2 or 4 shims is even worse. I have oiled up the ULT and the value and still nothing.

If I put my basic on/off back in my RT fires fine. I'm not sure what the problem is. Plz help!

I have a RT Pro x-value and ULT.

Using a 4500 PSI tank

[AGDlover]

I recently bought the ULT and i got everything ready to go with one shim in, gassed it up, and the trigger didnt reset(didnt let me shoot it) so i tried it with 2 shims, same thing. Tried 3, got one shot of and it didnt reset. Tried 4 shims and nothing happend. So i finally tried 5 shims...still nothing. I am using a classic valve but i thought the only problems with it would be shootdown, not having it not work at all. Please help. Any help would be greatly appriciated.


lets just put it this way buy a lot at least 10 lvl10 shims and drop all the lvl10 shims and see what happens curently i'm running all my lvl10 shims and all my ULT shims so around 13 shims and i actualty ordered 6more

[Cool fool!]

Arctic,


Try different carrier and LX shim combos. Same prob wit mine and now mine werks fine. :D

-Paul

[AGDlover]

ok guys i got some wicked bounce now a day with the ULT in the classic whats up?

[ldanphanl]

is there like a certain psi that the ult can handle? bewcause it seams that the sear is getting stuck half way when the tank out put is at 800 psi

[Castor Troy]

Okay I am getting mad bolt stick (thats where the bolt will not recock, right?)....currently have a drilled retro, tried 3 lvl10 shims, worked alright, if it were not for the bolt stick...I lubed it too...argh... :mad:

I have a rt pro..by the way... :headbang:

[Sac]

ok i have all 5 ULT shims in and it still short strokes really bad and doesnt want to reset, should i try sticking a level 10 shim in too

[p8baller4life]

Hi. I'm new to the forum and I loved it. I read this thread after I bought the ult hoping to buy a tac one later (i got it for a very good price). then I decide to try it in my automag valve. Well after reading almost all the posts, having problem with shot down and analizing the valve I came to the conclusion that the best think to do was to shorten the valve pin. So I did. I removed exactly .03" from the top side (thinner), rechamfer the pin edge. After that I tried different shim combinations and end up using 2 ult shims and now it is working nicely. No shot down, not recharge problems, no short stroking.

[Mechanic79]

The higher quality oil you use, the less frequently you'll have to oil your gun. Autolube is an OK oil, but it in my opinion it doesn't cut it in a higher performance Mag setup that has LX and ULT. With both of those setups, the fit of the o-rings and how smooth things are moving is very critical to keeping the gun running well and reliable.

The problem with autolube is that it drys out the o-rings and the oil itself drys out and doesn't keep things lubed.

Ever since I've been using KC Trouble Free oil, my o-rings stay as clean looking as they were when they were brand new and I never have gun issues that are caused by an inadequate amount of oil.

If you use autolube, do you ever wonder why your o-rings look all brown and dried out and brand new o-rings in parts kit are nice and clear?

BlackVCG,

I've also been using KC Trouble Free lube per your recommendations.

Since I've been using it this summer I've readjusted my level X carrier from the "single line" one to the carrier with "no lines". Does this KC troublefree oil really lube so well that It's caused me to adjust my level X in all of my guns??? It seems so...

Would this oil also add a little to the efficiency of the gun?

Let me know your thoughts on this.

Thanks Mechanic79

[voodooaddict]

Just dropped the ULT into a Classic Mag Valve with Hyperframe.
(Tried it out of the box with one shim ... didn't fire ... so put all of them in)

It works great!

I can finnaly use my Hyperframe! The thing never had enough force to properly fire the marker. I got my hyperframe years ago now. And It never worked right.

I haven't had time put any paint through it yet; But the mag reliably cycles again! Thats more then it did before.

Question. How fast can the old Classic Mag cycle on nitro? (800PSI Centerflag Hyperflow ASA) For simplicity reasons (and people saying the Classic doesn't charge fast enought for thr ULT) I've set the Hyperframe to 5BPS. Can I reliably bring her up to the 7-8 range? Yeah i know a 7bps bit comical for a target with all the markers shooting at easily double that rate.