My Rant about the quality of life going down in America?

[Star_Base_CGI]

Is it just me or are people missing the fact that the quality if living is going down in Amerika.

Im talking about jobs, taxs, abortion, drugs, homelessness and inflation.

Im 30 so maybe the young people dont notice it but where I live weve gone in my lifetime from about 20 murders a year to 350 and theres boarded up houses everywhere.

SOme people are getting so dumb, its like their numb or apathetic to it. Like its not going down.

You cant blame guns. The Jails are all overcroweded and people are still killing people.

Every rap song I ever heard is like a social commentary for a football game on the degredation of Amerika.

Trickle down bling bling doesnt work.. This year alone weve had a %40 increse in homelessness across the year.

Well sorry for my rant but I see the kids doing it and yes Us older folk get discouraged too. Now I understand why old people fuss about paying so much for stamps and news papers.

[ZAust]

well, this may sound harsh, but instead of *****ing about the fact that the quality of life is going down, go out there and do something about it. volunteer at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or building and repairing houses in the poor parts of town. i realized a while ago that anyone can complain about something.. it takes a strong person to go out and change it.

[InfinatyBPS]

Originally posted by ZAust
well, this may sound harsh, but instead of *****ing about the fact that the quality of life is going down, go out there and do something about it. volunteer at a soup kitchen, homeless shelter, or building and repairing houses in the poor parts of town. i realized a while ago that anyone can complain about something.. it takes a strong person to go out and change it.

That isn't going to change the problem:rolleyes: It may help homeless people eat, but they are still going to be homeless.


And I know exactly what your talking about CGI, I feel that rap music is a big part of the violence in today's world. All day at my school I see people, walking around with their pants under their ***, du-rags, bandanas hanging from their pants and talking about all the people they jumped the day before. And its not just black people, its people of every race. They all want to be like their rap hero, they want to live the thug life. And they're doing it, and the result is stabbings, shootings, and huge rumbles in the middle of the street everyday. You think this is just the problem with the youth of today, but that youth one day is going to be the people running this country, how will it be then? And don't come to me and tell me I'm stereotyping and such, becuase I live this everyday, and I know. And the drug problem, is governments fault.

[845]

Yeah I think rap would have to be the main cause of all problems in American society. Which is actually pretty accurate.


Oh and dont forget Smart Parts. Their Nazis so they must be the reason for all our problems.:rolleyes:

[gibby]

The way I see it, life will always have its ups and downs. But it's how you accept things and deal with things that counts.

Star Base, you've pointed it out plenty of times that you're having a hard time financially and what not. I've even gotten on your case about it. I can understand your bitterness but really, you should put some hard effort into making your life better for you.

It all starts with attitudes. Are you going to let your current situation get you down, or will you actually fight back and do something about it? Instead of browsing the web all day long, go out and actively look for a job. It might not be the job in the right field doing what you want, but it's something to start with.

I know I probably sound like an stuck up arse but sometimes, people need to get kicked where the sun don't shine in order for them to realize that all the negativity you dwell on doesn't help your situation out any.

You can blame the system, music, video games, movies, stuff on TV...whatever it is...but remember, it all begins with you. Improve your quality of life and you'll see that life isn't so bad. It might not be an easy road, but only you can do something about it.

Helping others might not help their own situation, but it can make their quality of life better, maybe not financially but emotionally. You'll show them that someone cares enough to take time to help them. You can inspire them to make their own changes which could help turn them around. You might not think helping others does any good, but it does.

Now stop ranting about life and go out and live it!

[gamarada717]

I agree, America is going down the crapper. By the time that I'm 50, the world will have gone to hell. Pollution, global warming, that kind of stuff. You fix these kinds of things by informing your community about it. It's like that movie Pass it On. The kid decides to help 3 people. Not something small, but something that would matter and that they wouldn't forget. Then, those 3 people each help 3 other people, and so forth. I have an idea that would greatly improve trash over flow. When you go up to the drive through, you hand them your cup. They fill it to a set amount, and charge you for that amount. Think about how many less cups this would make. It would also allow for more money to be paid to workers. Little things can matter to, but to fix this stuff, we have to go out and do it.

[Jack_Dubious]

Actually, listening to Country Music gives me the urge to kill....:p


JDub

[Smegma]

Originally posted by gamarada717
It's like that movie Pass it On. The movie is called Pay it Forward. Rap does not have a big effect on the violence in America, come on guys...:rolleyes:

[Konigballer]

Power=Corruption as Corruption=Weakness, this is America's path. First of all, things were never peachy in america no matter what old people say or what time period you look at. It all depends from what tax bracket/race/location you choose to evaluate things from. Star Base, you said people are "numb or apathetic" to the plights of the country, as you see it. I agree with this, but for possibly different reasons than you.

-The middle/upper class of this country seem apathetic to everything around them, 'cept how their new SUV compares to their neghbor's. How good that frothy Starbucks beverage taste.
How "J-Lo and Ben" live their fabulous lives. How their cel phone plan compares to another, or how their stocks are doing. This is what happens when a nation/empire gains a certain level of pre-eminence and wealth.

-In America today, you either keep up, or get left in the dust. People who fall between the cracks, the homeless, the poor, minorities, get lost in the rear view mirror of the American consumer culture and soon vanish from sight.

-Personaly, I think our problems are alot bigger than the threat of rap music. Saying you "cant blame guns" is as simple, and unfounded a statement as blaming rap music. Hey, I like guns PLENTY. I also except the fact that america is the most violent nation in the world today. Our love affair with violence started a lot longer ago than the acendency of gangster rap in the late eighties so putting the blame on rap is a little silly.

-All that bling bling culture crap only reflects the excesses of other realms of american society. The political, entertainment and corporate world. If you think Puff Daddy's worse than those pasty white executives ripping of millions at companies like Enron then somethings wrong with you.

In the end what can you do? The guys that said be like the kid in Pay It Foward wouldnt get very far with that crap here in Savannah without getting stabbed or shot like some of my classmates but whatever floats your boat. Personally, I hate country music.

[1stdeadeye]

If America is headed down the path to disaster, then maybe you should get out while the getting is good, eh?:rolleyes:

I have to agree with Gibby! Pick yourself up and find a job. If you can't get one in your field, then look elsewhere. The shortage of skilled workers is tremendous. Whining never solved anything. Also, don't say that nobody understands the situation you are in!

I am originally from Bethesda, Maryland. I was tranferred to New Jersey by my former Employer First Union (now Wachovia). After 1 year in NJ, I was downsized during the Corestates merger. I had a house, a family, and bills. Did I whine and moan about it? Yeah for maybe a weekend then I made my job finding a new and beter job while all along competeing with other FUers looking for jobs. To find a position at my level took 7 weeks! That is almost 2 months! I never stopped looking. You make your own luck my friend! It has been 7 years and I haven't looked back. I am a VP now earning a very nice living and I earned it all! No one gave me anything!

You need to go earn your chance! Make finding a better job a full time job and then maybe you will succeed at it!

As for things going down hill, every generation says that! America is still standing. Homelessness? Look up President Hoover and the Bonus Army! Murders? See the roaring 20s and prohibition. These problems will always exist in a free and capitalist society. Don't like it, then move to a socialist country and give the government more then 1/2 of your salary for your benefits.

Pick your self up and move on!!! Constructive criticism may hurt, but you need to move on with your life instead of watching it go by!!

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Konigballer
I also except the fact that america is the most violent nation in the world today.

Really? I guess you could always go live in South Africa, Liberia, Brazil, Columbia, Northern Ireland, Bosnia, Serbia, etc....

Oh yeah, we could also throw the middle east into the mix, eh?

Fact? I don't think so. Your perception, most definitely! America is the freeist nation in the world. For that freedom, you must take the good with the bad. If you want to solve all crime, we can follow the Chinese example: DWI=Bullet to the back of the head; Drug dealing=Bullet to the back of the head; Political corruption=Bullet to the back of your head; etc... Mind you these are all after the sham trial of course. We pay a heavy toll for our freedom, but it is a price we can not not afford to pay.

[bornl33t]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Is it just me or are people missing the fact that the quality if living is going down in Amerika.

Im talking about jobs, taxs, abortion, drugs, homelessness and inflation.

Im 30 so maybe the young people dont notice it but where I live weve gone in my lifetime from about 20 murders a year to 350 and theres boarded up houses everywhere.

SOme people are getting so dumb, its like their numb or apathetic to it. Like its not going down.

You cant blame guns. The Jails are all overcroweded and people are still killing people.

Every rap song I ever heard is like a social commentary for a football game on the degredation of Amerika.

Trickle down bling bling doesnt work.. This year alone weve had a %40 increse in homelessness across the year.

Well sorry for my rant but I see the kids doing it and yes Us older folk get discouraged too. Now I understand why old people fuss about paying so much for stamps and news papers.

I'm only 25 but I see it everywhere too...thing is that what is one person supposed to do about it? the answer to that is all in the word "integrity". But eh not even the rich ppl know what integrity is anymore.... they less then everyone else :(

[einhander619]

Blaming rap for violence? That's like blaming McDonald's for making you a sexless tab of lard. And if you think that the lowest denominator listens to rap, you should be thrilled that they are killing each other and taking care of their own problem. My only complaint is that if you get shot in a gang war, don't go crawling to a hospital with empty pockets.

[InfinatyBPS]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming all violence on rap, but it certainly dosen't help. As for the homeless problems, I think that there should be large appartments/homes/hotel/school type of things, should be implimented for homeless people in every area of every city. And there should be a kind of patrol that goes around and looks for homeless people and they take them to the home, set them up with a job(be it cleaning, the freeways, or being a janitor somewhere at least they will have a job) and get paid at least minimum wage, and they will get to live at the shelter, and at night they will be able to take free work education programs. And they should be allowd to live there for about 1-2 years, and train to get a job. After the 2 years is up they are to have a job and have enough money saved for a place to live. Therefor they would be productive member of scociety that worked they're way up from homelessness. Its just an idea that I thought of, and I know its highly unlikely to happen due to the shortage of money that the government has(yet they still find 18 billion dollars to support a useless war on drugs, and spend more millions on the people they imprison), but its just an idea, it seems like nobody thinks about the homeless people as people, they see them as a problem, not people, they want to fix the problem, not help the people and that disturbs me severely.

*oh and of course the homeless people should have an option to not goto the home against their will...

[Star_Base_CGI]

I would have never thought in a million years that or than 2 people would have anything positive to contribute to a negative thread.

Ive gotten the finger pointed more than once at me for the oh woah is me routine.

Let me for a fact say that while My life is not easy, I feel at times blessed. I have not had health coverage in 10 years. When I had health coverage it was not good health coverage. One time I went to the hospital with CHest pains. They gave me pain killers and sent me home. I am smart enough to have a college degree and know that you do not send people home from the hospital with chest pains. SO here I, we are paying money, hundreds of dollars for healthy care. You goto the hopital and they say ehres some paint killers. Buh Bye.

Okay well thats not good enough for me see because there are Millions of people. Probably 50,000,000 people in America by my standards with No health care and the dollar we put in the collection plate or the taxs we pay. That money should go to make sure that people have a meal and a place to sleep when their sick, BUT NO LIFE GOES ON. for 50,000,000 people in the world.

Next. My nieghborhood. Heres what the makeup of the buisiness looks like. We have about 8 bars, 1 A&P grocery store thats run like a Gestopoh camp,(Just ask my former boss) a McDOnalds and 2 bogus roach infested pizza Places that deliver drugs to your house.

Where are people supposed to eat? Point given. Its your job if you live here to goto the bar and get all liquired up. You see they have a sign. Opens at 6. 6 in the morning people are going to get beer.

Volounteer work. I think VOlounteer work is great. Ive done my share of volounteer work. Flowers in the community and some cut grass make everything looks nice but again, people who volounteer work deserve to get eat too. I have a friend whos a paramedic and she volounteers to do ambulatory service for free after they cut the ambulatory services to nothing. Again we pay for these services. I think my friend should sit home on her butt. Only in Russia people expect these services for free. We dont live in Russia...

Rap music. I think at best the Rap music is just a symptom of society or perhaps an advertising campain of whats in store for me.

Oh woah is me. While I feel sorry for me, for working part time to finish college and getting fired to make way for the check your self out registers. Yes pretty soon all registers everywhere will be check yourself out. This will make more money for coporate America. While you push your cart through the register and bag your own stuff.

(All the young people here looking for work at the grocery stores. Please for your own sanity continue looking for work. Nobody in grocery stores works full time anymore. You cant feed a family on a grocery store job at all and do the minimum amount of work possible.)

The people I really feal sorry for more than myself. Is all the other people who are my neighbors. My neighbors who live in HUD houses and would sell their soul for a few extra dollars. I feel sorry for the people next to the boarded up houses, 50,000 of them. I feel sorry for the honest cop that will never get promoted above patrolmen and I feel sorry for the person that thinks God forsake them. I feel sorry for the people that live next to the giant machine that eats cars.

Most of all I feel sorry for the disabled people that have a quarter mile of 12 inch pipe laying on their sidewalk pumping water and their final thoughts on this world will be steping over 12 inchs of sewar pipe to goto the docters in the car with their can.

Dont feel sorry for me. Im attaching a picture of my house. WHile its not worth much me and my nieghbors do the best we can with what we have. We keep the lawns trim and the houses nice. Maybe its my faith in God or maybe Im just a stupid moron. You would never ever guess that we live in the, murder, STD, drug crime captiol of the US.

Most of all Im afraid of whats to come of the US. I feel like this is all very organized. I cant tell you whats its like to go workout and walk a few miles through my neighborhood and see miles and miles of this mess accumulate in just 5 years. Its truly unbelivable.


Its sort of like if you went to New York or DIsneyland and all of a sudden everything just fell apart. Its Truly Unbelivable.

If you would like to see. Ill take a few pictures and post them next month.

[1stdeadeye]

Camden, NJ is the worst city in America to live in according to US News and World Report. It is more like Beruit then America!

The city school system has a drop out rate of over 52%. That means you are more likely to fail then succeed. Camden is trying to revitalize and rebuild itself. Camden is home to Rutgers-Camden, Our Lady of Lourdes Hospital, and Cooper Hospital to name a few. Cooper and Lady of Lourdes are nationally recognized medical centers.

Around 2 years ago, The Camden County Board of Chosen Freeholders attempted a welfare to work project with Cooper Hospital with 100 city residents. Camden County would pay Cooper to train them, and then pay 1/2 of their salaries for the following 2 years.

Of that group: 35 quit in the first two weeks. 17 didn't pass the training class. 30 more did not last their 90 days. The remaining 18 stuck it out and made a career at cooper. 1 year later, of the 18 that made it, guess how many lived in Camden still? 2!!!!

The rest moved out of that city. Most of them to sicklerville and winslow (Mango's beat).

What am I getting at?

Look for your chances and take them!!! Don't be a quitter or a dumb-@ss! You have a degree so use it! If not in your field then another. A degree gets you in the door, nothing more. I work in the financial field with a political science degree. Get cocky. Go to interviews with the mindset that this company will be lucky to get me and not I really need this job. Desperation turns an employer (and a woman) off real quick!

Once you seize you chance move! Encourage your neighbors to better themselves as well. How are you going to change America? One person at a time, starting with yourself!

Hit the job boards! Look at banking, the military, etc... Banking will get you benefits as well as pay for you to continue your ecducation. Do not turn down an entry level (teller) job, everyone had to start somewhere!

You live in Maryland don't you? Prince George's county too?

[Zumina]

Teach the masses proper principles, and they will govern themselves.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Your looking at Baltimore city. COmpanies are hiring %38 fewer graduates. Maybe even less than that.

New Jersey is just as bad. I think they are the stolen car capitol of the US. LOL where do all these stolen cars go? China? Its like thousands of cars disappearing...

The whole DC area is like a major Hotspot.
Blame Washington...

Best I can hope for is a small job to pay my electricity, food and car parts.

Eventually Im going to sell the house and move.

Im either giving the house to my parents towards a bigger house or Im getting a van and moving out.

[1stdeadeye]

Look at entry level. Get your foot in the door and then focus on moving up! In Baltimore, you have a ton of financial companies!!! Bank of America, Wachovia, Allfirst(based in Baltimore), USF&G(Baltimore based), T.Rowe Price(based in Baltimore) to name a few!!!

Good luck!

[Konigballer]

I agree with deadeye, get out there and dont gripe. Hell, listen how positive deadeye is and he's from friggin' jersey! I dont know if the military cut off age for inducties has passed you but its always an option. Anyways, training standards are the lowest they've been for a volunteer US Army in decades, so even a "trekkie" could get in.

[-Carnifex-]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI


Im talking about jobs, taxs, abortion, drugs, homelessness and inflation.



Yeah, damn those people having abortions, they sure ruin America for the rest of us..

[845]

Look how hard the kids are these days. They should be singing mickey lullabies but no they sing this

http://www.sat1.de/starsearch/video_anzeige.hbs?videoid=288046&kid=92&finalstatus=2&kategorie=1#

[Smegma]

Originally posted by 845
Look how hard the kids are these days. They should be singing mickey lullabies but no they sing this

http://www.sat1.de/starsearch/video_anzeige.hbs?videoid=288046&kid=92&finalstatus=2&kategorie=1# Lol, and what does this have to do with the problems in America. Who are you to tell this kid, who isn't much younger than you and I, what he should or shouldn't be singing. Dont act like you know what "kids these days should be doing", your a kid and I'm a kid, saying stuff like that makes you look foolish IMO.

[gibby]

Well Star Base...if you don't want to take any of our constructive criticism and use it to your advantage, then that's your fault. If you don't agree to what we have to say, it's not our fault you choose to stay where you are.

Sure, times are tough. Hell, I still have hard times but I don't dwell on it nor do I put the blame on society. Whatever happens in my life happens because of what I put into it. How much effort can you honestly say you've put into your current situation?

Sure, we can be fake about it and sympathize with you...but I'd rather not as that wouldn't do you any good in the long run. But like I said, all we can do is offer our advice and suggestions. It's up to you what you want to do with them.

Some people are blessed with a life where everything comes easy, or things are provided for them. But there are those who choose not to give up and keep on trying...those that do usually end up being successful through their own efforts. Most often, that builds character and is quite rewarding for those who see it through.

So either you allow yourself to keep on being pushed down, or you get back up and push back yourself. That's all I have to say to you bud. Good luck with your life.

[Collegeboy]

There is one word that could have solved this problem a long time ago. Why


Our country is so in-depth in the barbaric and age old ideas of pay back and violence that whenever someone commits a crime we fill we are solving the problems if we just punish the person who committed it. This "solving" of the problem only leads to great problems and an increase in crime. How do you lower crime? You ask Why did this person feel the need to rob this store, why did they have to kill this person, why why why why. But everyone is afraid to find out the answers so they never ask the question.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
There is one word that could have solved this problem a long time ago. Why


Our country is so in-depth in the barbaric and age old ideas of pay back and violence that whenever someone commits a crime we fill we are solving the problems if we just punish the person who committed it. This "solving" of the problem only leads to great problems and an increase in crime. How do you lower crime? You ask Why did this person feel the need to rob this store, why did they have to kill this person, why why why why. But everyone is afraid to find out the answers so they never ask the question.

Those questions have been asked since the dawn of time. Sorry but eventually you have to stop asking why and answer the important question of "what are we going to do about it." You may say that we have found the wrong answer to the question with locking people up, etc. There is SOME truth to that. There is also SOME truth to the fact that funding studies of why "good" people do "bad" things and how to rehabilitate them turns out to be ineffective and not cost effective. I'm not saying lock everyone up. I'm just saying that your post is in error. That question has been asked repeatedly.....

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
There is one word that could have solved this problem a long time ago. Why


Our country is so in-depth in the barbaric and age old ideas of pay back and violence that whenever someone commits a crime we fill we are solving the problems if we just punish the person who committed it. This "solving" of the problem only leads to great problems and an increase in crime. How do you lower crime? You ask Why did this person feel the need to rob this store, why did they have to kill this person, why why why why. But everyone is afraid to find out the answers so they never ask the question.

What an insight!!:rolleyes:

Seeing as how violence never existed until now in America and how America invented crime what a brilliant idea!:rolleyes:

Aaron Mag has it right. Why isn't the question.

Hey Collegeboy, Why did Kane kill Abel? Crime and punishment have been debated since the dawn of time and will be long after we are gone. Your self righeous diatribe can't answer the problem.

On the bright side, I have missed you maniacal rantings!!;) :p

[pito189]

Originally posted by InfinatyBPS
Don't get me wrong, I'm not blaming all violence on rap, but it certainly dosen't help.

Not calling you out Infinaty, just using what you said, other people said it too.

I listen to rap pretty constantly, and I haven't murdered, stabbed, done any drive bys, done drugs, smoked weed, smoked a cigarette, smacked any Hoes', driven cars on 24" dubs. I seem to be missing out. :rolleyes:

If your going to blame rap, then you should take 95% of the blame that you are putting on rap, and place it on TV. You can watch TV anytime of the day and see people killing each other. A lot more people watch TV than listen to rap.

It all boils down to parenting if you want to talk about kids rumbling in the streets. If the PARENTS don't give a damn about their children getting an education, then the kids won't either. If the parents don't ask their kids where they are going everyday after school, then the kids will get it in huge brawls. If the parents don't CARE, then the kids won't care either.

You can rant all you want, why don't you run for an public office, and get things changed.

[bornl33t]

just to through some brain food in here, how do you feel you're superiors ( supervisor, parents, govenor, police, president, etc ) are doing with the statement "Do as I say, not as I do"? Are they leading by example?

[shartley]

I think hypocrisy is not an easy pill to swallow from parents, government, law enforcement, and even fellow forum members. And it is even more so a harder topic to discuss honestly.

And as for crime and society…. At this point, being that one of my Wife’s friends just got murdered by her 16 year old daughter’s boyfriend (who she met ONLINE) because the mother would not let them move back down to Connecticut together… and her daughter kept a look out at a local convenience store…. I may not be the best one to ask about this…………………….

Messed up… you bet. From society in general on down to internet forums. Just be careful that you know what face you are talking to…….

[Rooster]

Nobody that is reasonably mentally sound and above the age of 18 deserves anything. Nothing. You don't deserve a dime. You earn what you get. You are a product of the choices that you make. As soon as you understand that no one on this planet owes you anything, you are free to begin earning your way.

[Digi_Gyrl]

Be careful who you judge, you never know who will be your judge.

-- Stacy

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


What an insight!!:rolleyes:

Seeing as how violence never existed until now in America and how America invented crime what a brilliant idea!:rolleyes:

Aaron Mag has it right. Why isn't the question.

Hey Collegeboy, Why did Kane kill Abel? Crime and punishment have been debated since the dawn of time and will be long after we are gone. Your self righeous diatribe can't answer the problem.

On the bright side, I have missed you maniacal rantings!!;) :p

Don't worry I missed you all's lack of comprehension. :p

Where did I say punishment is not good. If someone does a crime, they should be punished in some way. The fact is most of the time it stops there. There is no in depth looking into why this person committed this crime, why he had to do this, what factors lead him to do this act which he knows is illegal.

Punishment is key, but you will never stop crime by punishing those who already committed it. You have to start at its beginnings. You have to take away all the reasons that most people commit crimes. Now will this end crime. No, crime has always existed and will always exist. but it will cut down on it a lot.

Shartley, please send my condolences.

Rooster. Spooking like a true conservative. So you believe that everyone in life should get what they earn?

[aaron_mag]

Cool sig DigiGyrl....


Originally posted by Rooster
Nobody that is reasonably mentally sound and above the age of 18 deserves anything. Nothing. You don't deserve a dime. You earn what you get. You are a product of the choices that you make. As soon as you understand that no one on this planet owes you anything, you are free to begin earning your way.

The concept of anyone "earning their own way" is a bunch of BS in our society. We are the product of our society, benefit from it, and all of us owe our current method of earning a living to it. The further removed we are from the basic needs (food, clothing, and shelter) the more true it is.

I, for example, am involved in the financial industry. I have honed various skills that are completely useless when it comes to base survival. The standard of living I sustain (and I imagine for most Americans) would be impossible if it was not for the collective benefit of living in this society. In other words I couldn't grow my food, build the house I live in, install the plumbing with city wide sceptic system, and build my retro mag all by myself. So clearly I owe something to society and something society (schooling, taxes for roads, etc) and also something to those that have fallen on hard times, etc (there by the grace of god go I). The question is how much......

[1stdeadeye]

Digi...
I don't think most of us here are judging. Constructive criticism is a better term. I for one tried to show him some avenues or job ideas.

CB....
Debates just aren't that much fun without your dictionary challenging rantings!;)
I din't say you were for NO punishments, I said it has been debated. Unfortunately due to the nature of man, crime will always exist.:(

AM....
True to a point. Some people are handed everything on a silver platter. For most of us it doesn't work that way! I will say that only you can make yourself better! You have to want to because until you do, no one can make you!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


CB....
Debates just aren't that much fun without your dictionary challenging rantings!;)
I din't say you were for NO punishments, I said it has been debated. Unfortunately due to the nature of man, crime will always exist.:(



I really need to rewrite the dictionary. It is vastly incorrect on alot of matters. :p No I am serious :( , or am I :confused:

[Restola]

Originally posted by Rooster
Nobody that is reasonably mentally sound and above the age of 18 deserves anything. Nothing. You don't deserve a dime. You earn what you get. You are a product of the choices that you make. As soon as you understand that no one on this planet owes you anything, you are free to begin earning your way.
There ya go.

Now I have no problem with PRIVATE CITIZENS stepping in and helping people, that's there choice. They can provide specific help. They can choose who needs help, and who is trying to get a free ride. I have no problem with people donating to causes they believe in. That includes churches and other religious organizations. But the government should stay out of it.

Garbage like the lawsuit out in California, where people are SUEING to make sure homeless people continue to get cash (for drugs and alcohol) instead of food, are just another example that government screws up everything.

The problem with homelessness now is that the government tried to fix it. Keep the government out. Let capitalism work. The good heart of the American people will insure that we don't have old people starving in our streets. The assumption that government is fixing the problem is doing vastly more harm than good.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

There ya go.

Now I have no problem with PRIVATE CITIZENS stepping in and helping people, that's there choice. They can provide specific help. They can choose who needs help, and who is trying to get a free ride. I have no problem with people donating to causes they believe in. That includes churches and other religious organizations. But the government should stay out of it.

Garbage like the lawsuit out in California, where people are SUEING to make sure homeless people continue to get cash (for drugs and alcohol) instead of food, are just another example that government screws up everything.

The problem with homelessness now is that the government tried to fix it. Keep the government out. Let capitalism work. The good heart of the American people will insure that we don't have old people starving in our streets. The assumption that government is fixing the problem is doing vastly more harm than good.

The good heart of the American people will make sure these people starve.

[MagAl]

Move to Japan I heard its great there... low crime...clean streets... nice place from what Ive heard :)

[-Carnifex-]

Japan also has hornets that are five times the size of the normal honey bee. Hell, they eat other bees!

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
The good heart of the American people will make sure these people starve.

Yeah CB is totally right here. Please don't give me the Ross Perot feel good American speech. It is a bunch of BS. I see a new CB back from Siberia:). He has a better sense of humor.

Some actually argue we don't need unions anymore. The good people of the corporate world will make sure people have a living wage. These saintly people devoted to capitalism, family values, and America would never deliberately try to screw over people and take a larger piece of the pie right?:rolleyes:<-----(note that this denotes extreme sarcasm).

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
AM....
True to a point. Some people are handed everything on a silver platter. For most of us it doesn't work that way! I will say that only you can make yourself better! You have to want to because until you do, no one can make you!

I definetely agree with you that there is inequity. Some people start way ahead and I am not recommending that gets changed. Guess what? People work hard not only so that they enjoy the benefits of wealth but so they can pass on that wealth/power to their descendents. Is it fair? Of course not but that is human nature and not something we can change.

What I was trying to say is that people who say, "I earn my own way" should realize that they are speaking a half truth. Even Bill friggin Gates owes society for some of his success. Society, after all, provided the environment for him to thrive in.

[Rooster]

"The good heart of the American people will make sure these people starve."

Then they starve. Where I live there is a shortage of people to work for farm markets. I know of farmers who have gone to town and offered to transport people south if they will work a hard 8 hours for minimum wage. Guess how many takers there were. If you guessed none, you guessed right.

And as far as the guy with now survival skills, that is purely a product of the choices you have made. Regardless of society, you still made choices. If technology disapears tomarrow, you might die. That is a result of the choices you made in your life, and the fault of no one on this planet, but you.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Rooster
Then they starve.
That will never happen. One of the greatest things about America is totally overlooked by CB for the sake of a larger, more socialist government.:rolleyes:

Rooster's ideas are totally fine with me. Because his social-darwinism approach by a minority will immediately be countered by a do-gooder's fight against poverty, which is awsome. Some people in America with money and time want to help people. Let them help people. Don't have the government half-help people, and in the process make things worse. The government takes 47% of all income in the US. I think at least this small percentage of that (used for fighting poverty), could better be handled by private citizens and organizations.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


I really need to rewrite the dictionary. It is vastly incorrect on alot of matters. :p No I am serious :( , or am I :confused:

lol or :confused: :eek:

;)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

That will never happen. One of the greatest things about America is totally overlooked by CB for the sake of a larger, more socialist government.:rolleyes:

Rooster's ideas are totally fine with me. Because his social-darwinism approach by a minority will immediately be countered by a do-gooder's fight against poverty, which is awsome. Some people in America with money and time want to help people. Let them help people. Don't have the government half-help people, and in the process make things worse. The government takes 47% of all income in the US. I think at least this small percentage of that (used for fighting poverty), could better be handled by private citizens and organizations.

Who wants a socialist government, I sure as heck don't. Do I like a government with some socialist elements, yes.

The only one who will benefit from the type of system you want is the casket makers.

[aaron_mag]

First off I am not arguing if 47% is too much or too little (cowards way out:D ). My argument is simply that the whole, "the government doesn't need to take care of that little old lady down the street when she has no food because she is an American and Americans will take care of her" BS. Yes I said BS.

First off you are right that if the government didn't take care of some of these issues other aid organizations would fill the void to a degree. This was true in early American history and also true in Roman times. In Roman times it happened to create legions that were loyal to their general (who was actually paying their wages) versus the state. In American history you had best remember who had helped you out when times were tough when it came to the casting of your vote.

As far as social darwinism goes this is typically advocated by those that are the most comfortable at the moment. They tend to forget that things change and technology changes things. Once they find themselves uprooted by technology and told to earn their living for minimum wage they start howling about the injustice of it all.

[Restola]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
In American history you had best remember who had helped you out when times were tough when it came to the casting of your vote.
Bad idea. Voting purely on how much support (money) you get from a certain politician is not a positive contribution to society. You are voting to take more of someone else's money and give it to yourself. We are approaching a critical mass. A huge percentage of Americans currently receive money that isn't theirs (it may be in the 40% range, but I'll need to research it again to get the exact number). At the current trend however, in the next 10-15 years we'll pass the point where more than half the people are now receiving money (or other near-liquid support) from the government. We know NOW that a tiny percentage of the population is paying to support this. How long do you think this will continue? How much of the incentive to earn more, to produce jobs, to develop technology, to do your best to support your family, can we remove before enough people just stop caring? Government grows every year. Democrat, Republican, doesn't matter. So we'll find out soon enough.

Government's war on poverty, which many would argue has been a total failure, it's just one part of whats wrong with where we are going. I can't support any program like this, no matter how good it feels. They simply don't work for one (or are vastly less efficient than private organizations), and they promote a path that I don't want to travel down (but we are headed towards anyways).

"[A democracy] can only exist until voters discover that they can vote themselves money from the public treasury."

[KHartley]

College Boy thank you for the condolences. I appreciate it. It has been a very hard week.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Restola
Bad idea. Voting purely on how much support (money) you get from a certain politician is not a positive contribution to society.

That is my point!!!! In Roman society people started voting (with their muscle) with their stomachs instead of what was good for the state. Do you want to return to Tammany Hall where you were helped when times were tough but you better vote right? Like corrupt political machines? Why not have the mob help you out when you are down and out in return for future favors. All this talk of a total capitalist society is a bunch of BS. It would be nice to believe that good christians would supply that which was needed and we would all live idyllic lives like Little House on the Prairie but history has shown a different story.....

[Restola]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
It would be nice to believe that good christians would supply that which was needed and we would all live idyllic lives like Little House on the Prairie but history has shown a different story.....
Dispite your sarcasm, that's the way it worked for over 150 years in America. Through several wars on our own territory even...

You prove that you are part of the problem you fear. You can't remember or imagine a time before government tried to do everything, so you think we have it great now, and need more government to really fix things right. If the Federal government had stayed anywhere within the bounds of the Constitution, little waves of support for bad ideas wouldn't matter (since it takes much much more to change the Constitution). The states could do what they wanted, have giant governments, steal money from their citizens to share the wealth, be on display for other states to copy or learn from. But instead our federal elected officials, in a bid to get themselves more power and reelected, sidestepped it all almost a century ago.

Something big is going to happen within our lifetimes (and I say that knowing full well there is a bias that every generation thinks that they are the most important one). The current trend of more and more government programs supported by fewer and fewer tax payers simply cannot continue. By the time we reach the end of this growth, we would have had over 150 years of smaller government which lead to amazing prosperity and becomming the super power, but less than 100 years of out of control government growth/spending leading to whatever dead end we are going towards. Hopefully we'll return to the old way. I doubt we can really stop it now. Like I said, whether Bush or Gore is president, no matter who controls congress, government grows each year.

So yes, quality of life is going to be effected by all of this. It depends on which side of the game you are on. If you are intelligent, hard working, caring, then the government will continue to take more and more of your money until you cannot support it any longer. If you are lazy, stupid, unconcerned, then the government will continue to give you more and more of someone else's money as long as you vote for them.

Bigger government is not the answer to fix the quality of life question. It's a dead end that we are racing towards at full speed. Our way of life worked for over 150 years before government growth sky-rocketed. It would work again.

And if you really believe that capitalism will be the death of America, then this is my last post, as that is totally ridiculous. Check your definitions, you might mean a 100% democracy...

[Collegeboy]

So do you think the majority of people in the US are stupid, lazy, and unconcered.

The hardest working people in this country are the ones making the below poverty and right above poverty levels. They can not enjoy the high pay that others get, yet they work just as hard if not harder.

Why don't you come down and see what work the poor have to do just to surive.

It is sickening to hear you say that those who are lazy unintellegent and unconcered are the ones who are making you have to pay your fair share.

[Restola]

It's amusing that even though I have stated in this thread multiple times that I fully support helping the poor in every way, that as soon as I say the government isn't the best organization to do it, you think that's sickening.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
So do you think the majority of people in the US are stupid, lazy, and unconcered.

The hardest working people in this country are the ones making the below poverty and right above poverty levels. They can not enjoy the high pay that others get, yet they work just as hard if not harder.

Why don't you come down and see what work the poor have to do just to surive.

It is sickening to hear you say that those who are lazy unintellegent and unconcered are the ones who are making you have to pay your fair share.

The less you make the harder you work.

Look at the garbage man that spends 8 hours a day behind a stinky truck humping cans. Now granted that Guy might be out of prison...

Than Look at Ozzy. Ozzys probably been out of prison. Hardest thing Ozzy has to do is lecture his kids because they dont have any boundries...

Dont play with the guns and 5 minutes later their playing with the guns???

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

So yes, quality of life is going to be effected by all of this. It depends on which side of the game you are on. If you are intelligent, hard working, caring, then the government will continue to take more and more of your money until you cannot support it any longer. If you are lazy, stupid, unconcerned, then the government will continue to give you more and more of someone else's money as long as you vote for them.


This is what I was responding too.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
The less you make the harder you work.


That is a generality and is BS in my experience. The richest men I know are also the hardest workers. Granted there will be poor people that work hard and rich people that are lazy bastards, I'm just saying the generality is wrong.

I will say I don't know a single poor person who works over 80 hours a week, but I know plenty that B & M about having no money and work 20-30 hours a week. :rolleyes:

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


That is a generality and is BS in my experience. The richest men I know are also the hardest workers. Granted there will be poor people that work hard and rich people that are lazy bastards, I'm just saying the generality is wrong.

I will say I don't know a single poor person who works over 80 hours a week, but I know plenty that B & M about having no money and work 20-30 hours a week. :rolleyes:

How many poor people can work over 40 hours a week and still have a job, for many companies will fire you for working overtime.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
How many poor people can work over 40 hours a week and still have a job, for many companies will fire you for working overtime.

So work two jobs. Or three. Nothing says you can only have one job.

[Star_Base_CGI]

If you work 3 jobs you are not getting time and a half. You are still working for slave wage...

How many jobs should one work to be able to eat and have cloths? Notice above thread said $30 for pizza and haircut at "great clips".

There for the less you make the harder you work. You just proved it...

How many millionares have to work 3 part time jobs to eat?

Granted Mac and cheese not bourban chicken.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
If you work 3 jobs you are not getting time and a half. You are still working for slave wage...

How many jobs should one work to be able to eat and have cloths? Notice above thread said $30 for pizza and haircut at "great clips".

There for the less you make the harder you work. You just proved it...

How many millionares have to work 3 part time jobs to eat?

Granted Mac and cheese not bourban chicken.

Well when I work 60-70 hours a week I don't get overtime either. What's the difference between me working 60 hours a week at one job and someone else working 3 jobs at 20 hours each, for a total of 60 hours a week? I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone who has the capacity to work and chooses not too. I know a guy who has a masters degree in english who is going to lose his house because he "can't find another job". Of course he's been offered jobs that paid less then he wanted and were "beneath him", but would allow him to make ends meet while he continued looking for his dream job, but he doesn't want those.

That's another thing I've noticed. I can't count how many times I've talked to poorer or unemployed friends who won't take a job because it's "beneath them". What kind of crap is that?

Show me the number of people who are poor and work as much as they can to survive and I'll feel sorry for them. But you know what? They are the minority.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


Well when I work 60-70 hours a week I don't get overtime either. What's the difference between me working 60 hours a week at one job and someone else working 3 jobs at 20 hours each, for a total of 60 hours a week? I'm not going to feel sorry for anyone who has the capacity to work and chooses not too. I know a guy who has a masters degree in english who is going to lose his house because he "can't find another job". Of course he's been offered jobs that paid less then he wanted and were "beneath him", but would allow him to make ends meet while he continued looking for his dream job, but he doesn't want those.

That's another thing I've noticed. I can't count how many times I've talked to poorer or unemployed friends who won't take a job because it's "beneath them". What kind of crap is that?

Show me the number of people who are poor and work as much as they can to survive and I'll feel sorry for them. But you know what? They are the minority.

Don't you find it sad that a person is forced to work 80+ hours a week just to survive, while other working less hours and far less labor, are making a killing off of the labor of the poor.

Why does a CEO make a million a year, because his employees makes hardly anything. Why do middle management make 75,000 +, because the other employees make hardly anything.

You say someone should be forced to get another job or two to survive. What about there children then. Should we then send all children to orphanages until they are 18 for their parents have to work everyday for most of the day just to get by. Why don't we just prevent the bottom class from having children, make them all wear khaki and have them work. While we are at it why don't we take away all their feelings for outside emotions, so that they can be a better worker. I mean they have no use in them for they have no children to raise, and they will be greater workers if they can only concentrate on work.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Don't you find it sad that a person is forced to work 80+ hours a week just to survive, while other working less hours and far less labor, are making a killing off of the labor of the poor.

Why does a CEO make a million a year, because his employees makes hardly anything. Why do middle management make 75,000 +, because the other employees make hardly anything.


As I said in the one of the last sentences of my last post "Show me the number of people who are poor and work as much as they can to survive and I'll feel sorry for them."

Yeah. That sucks. It also sucks when people get cancer, are born with defects, or just have a lower IQ. Some people have an easy road, some people don't. Sometimes it's consequences of previous decisions and actions, sometiems not.

Why does a CEO make more then a janitor? Because they're not as replaceable. Almost anyone can be a janitor, relatively few people can be a competent CEO. That's also why most engineers make more money then the people at taco bell. It's requires a skill that not all people posses.

[/start sarcasm] Ahhh Oh no! The evil conservative is here! Quick everyone run! I want to sterilize the masses! Ahhh I'm here to steal your children!!!! [/end sarcasm]

Did I say they should be "forced" to get another job? I'm saying you have a responsibilty to work your butt off or your complaints are going to fall on deaf ears. Did I say there shouldn't be public assistance programs? :rolleyes:

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by -Carnifex-


Yeah, damn those people having abortions, they sure ruin America for the rest of us..

Actually, completely unrestricted and affordable abortions are causing a problem in this country. Did you know that some ethnicities that primarily dwell in urban areas where quality of life tends to be below average the rampant use of abortions is actually causing negative population growth?

Please, before anyone responds, I'm not rendering any kind of opinion on whether abortion should be legal, ethical, or moral. Simply that it's causing negative population growth amound some sectors of America.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Don't you find it sad that a person is forced to work 80+ hours a week just to survive, while other working less hours and far less labor, are making a killing off of the labor of the poor.
I for one would like to know why someone would be forced to work 80+ hours a week and still not be making enough to "survive".

80 hours x 6.50 (wendy's wage) = $520/week x 20% tax = $416/week take home pay. Thats $20,000/year ater taxes with two minimum wage jobs that require zero experience or skills.

Thats twice what I make during school, and $1600/month is still more than I make over the summer. I drive a newer car (which I bought), live away from home, and if I wasn't also going through flight school (which is $6,000+ additional per semester) I could quite easily fully support myself and pay for 100% of my college (I do just that, minus 2/3 of the cost of flight classes which my parents pick up). Sure I live with some roommates, and I can't play paintball, I can't eat out a lot, I have a cell phone with the cheapest plan available, I dont go on vacations.

Now why is the person making $20k/year unable to make ends meet?

-Children
-Drugs

How are either of those two things the fault of the CEO? How are either of those two things the fault of the person making $100,000 a year who didn't get hooked on drugs, or have a kid at 18?

In a capitalist society some people succeed and some people fail. A lot of it is based on skill, intelligence, and hard work. Some of it is based on luck. In America, the people who fail should have someone to turn to for help. The government does a horrible job at this and should not be involved.

We all want the same thing Collegeboy. I just don't think the government is the best thing to do it (given it's track-record with social programs).

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aaron_mag

Some actually argue we don't need unions anymore. The good people of the corporate world will make sure people have a living wage. These saintly people devoted to capitalism, family values, and America would never deliberately try to screw over people and take a larger piece of the pie right?:rolleyes:<-----(note that this denotes extreme sarcasm).

We don't need unions anymore. Unions destroyed steel. They destroyed the airlines. They've condemned the ports to functioning in the dark ages. They're in the process of destroying education.

No, we do not need unions.


I definetely agree with you that there is inequity. Some people start way ahead and I am not recommending that gets changed. Guess what? People work hard not only so that they enjoy the benefits of wealth but so they can pass on that wealth/power to their descendents. Is it fair? Of course not but that is human nature and not something we can change.

It's weird for you to say that after defnding unions. Since the union's sole job is to protect people from competition in their workplace and the inequities of a free market.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

I for one would like to know why someone would be forced to work 80+ hours a week and still not be making enough to "survive".

80 hours x 6.50 (wendy's wage) = $520/week x 20% tax = $416/week take home pay. Thats $20,000/year ater taxes with two minimum wage jobs that require zero experience or skills.

Thats twice what I make during school, and $1600/month is still more than I make over the summer. I drive a newer car (which I bought), live away from home, and if I wasn't also going through flight school (which is $6,000+ additional per semester) I could quite easily fully support myself and pay for 100% of my college (I do just that, minus 2/3 of the cost of flight classes which my parents pick up). Sure I live with some roommates, and I can't play paintball, I can't eat out a lot, I have a cell phone with the cheapest plan available, I dont go on vacations.

Now why is the person making $20k/year unable to make ends meet?

-Children
-Drugs

How are either of those two things the fault of the CEO? How are either of those two things the fault of the person making $100,000 a year who didn't get hooked on drugs, or have a kid at 18?

In a capitalist society some people succeed and some people fail. A lot of it is based on skill, intelligence, and hard work. Some of it is based on luck. In America, the people who fail should have someone to turn to for help. The government does a horrible job at this and should not be involved.

We all want the same thing Collegeboy. I just don't think the government is the best thing to do it (given it's track-record with social programs).

Drugs, why in the world would you insert that without trying to say that most poor people sue drugs.

I showed a yearly expense in one of the previous threads that I am sure you have seen. A family of 4 can not survive on anything less then 25,000 a year without using government funding. And I was using lower Alabama prices on the cheapest I can find around here (since lower Alabama is one of the cheapest areas to live in).

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
A family of 4 can not survive on anything less then 25,000 a year without using government funding.
Why would a couple making less than $25,000 a year have children, and whose to blame if they cant support them? The CEO? You? Me?

They will get help whether the government is doing it or private organizations are doing it. The difference is that the government hasn't helped fix the problem, they've made it worse.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I showed a yearly expense in one of the previous threads that I am sure you have seen. A family of 4 can not survive on anything less then 25,000 a year without using government funding.

His example specifically stated that the $20,000 was for a single person and that children would make living under that threshold difficult at best.

So, to say a family of 4 requires more then $20,000 doesn't dispute his claim in the slightest

[1stdeadeye]

I refuse to be drawn into this debate!

That being said, my $0.02:

I take umbrage at anyone saying that wealthy people don't work as hard as the poor. That is total BS and a copout! My father worked his way into a heart attack in May. He lost vision in his left eye due to a burst blood vessel 3 years ago. He is 56! He is an EVP with a telecom firm in the DC metro area. He works crazy long hours! He travels all over the world on business and he HATES to travel. He earns every penny of the salary he makes. He also carries a ton of stress around 24/7 as a reward for his success. How many of the working poor take their job home with them?
I make a nice living as well. I work hard to earn it though. While on vacation, I ended up driving to a client's to salvage a loan closing. I go above and beyond to achieve. Why? Because that is what I have to do to earn what I earn. I take my work home with me. I do what I have to do!

Maybe is is not a question of working harder, but working smarter?

Maybe these people need to take advantage of some of the government programs offered to better themselves? Job training programs, discounted child care, etc... America is a country of limitless possibilities. No one is ever doomed to a lot in life. You can make yourself better!! For every poverty story you want to throw up, I'll match you with a story of determination and hard work leading to a rags to richs story.

..and that is all I have to say about that!

[Collegeboy]

So shall we deny the right to have children for anyone who is determined to be poor by the state. So you really would like the world I described three post back.

1de. If you read, I am sure you will find that I am not saying that people who make alot of money do not earn their money. I am saying that one of the reason's they make that high amount is because the factory or basic workers are paid much lower then they should be.

[shartley]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
I refuse to be drawn into this debate!

That being said, my $0.02:

I take umbrage at anyone saying that wealthy people don't work as hard as the poor. That is total BS and a copout! My father worked his way into a heart attack in May. He lost vision in his left eye due to a burst blood vessel 3 years ago. He is 56! He is an EVP with a telecom firm in the DC metro area. He works crazy long hours! He travels all over the world on business and he HATES to travel. He earns every penny of the salary he makes. He also carries a ton of stress around 24/7 as a reward for his success. How many of the working poor take their job home with them?
I make a nice living as well. I work hard to earn it though. While on vacation, I ended up driving to a client's to salvage a loan closing. I go above and beyond to achieve. Why? Because that is what I have to do to earn what I earn. I take my work home with me. I do what I have to do!

Maybe is is not a question of working harder, but working smarter?

Maybe these people need to take advantage of some of the government programs offered to better themselves? Job training programs, discounted child care, etc... America is a country of limitless possibilities. No one is ever doomed to a lot in life. You can make yourself better!! For every poverty story you want to throw up, I'll match you with a story of determination and hard work leading to a rags to richs story.

..and that is all I have to say about that!
I agree… it is silly to try to say one man works harder than another simply because of their income. I know folks in every tax bracket that can be called “hard working” and those that can be called “not hard working”.

But I will state that for every rags to riches story, there are loads going in the opposite direction.

I can tell you that it is not easy for a grown man with a family to get a job. I have personally applied and went through the entire hiring process for every job from janitor, factory worker, security guard, entry level data processor, police officer, and many others… and been denied employment by all of them.

“Overqualified”
“Not suited for the position”
“We will not be able to keep you because when you find a better job you will leave.”
“Position given to another person to fill a quota”
And the list goes on and on.

America is the land of limitless possibilities? LOL you are SO correct…. If you are a single woman, are of “ethnic” background, or are an immigrant. Heaven help you if you are just a run of the mill middle class white male with a family to support and come on hard times for one reason or another….. where is your help then? Where are your “limitless possibilities”?

I have dealt with the system… sorry….. and most folks are only a paycheck away from seeing how bad things can get before anyone will lift a finger to help you. I seriously advise folks take a step back and reevaluate what they think about everything……………. Things are far too often not as cut and dry as people think they are.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
So shall we deny the right to have children for anyone who is determined to be poor by the state. So you really would like the world I described three post back.


No, of course children shouldn't be denied by the state, BUT, people should really think long and hard about children, and if they can afford to spawn, before doing so. It's called responsibility, and people should exercise it before they breed.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I am saying that one of the reason's they make that high amount is because the factory or basic workers are paid much lower then they should be.

So the replacement value of a factory worker is artificially low? Explain please.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


So the replacement value of a factory worker is artificially low? Explain please.

Wow, what a spectacular word usage! Color me impressed.

And yes, please explain

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by ShooterJM


So the replacement value of a factory worker is artificially low? Explain please.

I think what hes trying to say is Micheal Eisner is worth $500,000,000 million a year more than the people that work 10-6 scrubbing the park for $8 because they push those heavy machines around in the heat and he has to sit at the desk all day or get his dumb butt driven around in everywhere in a $50,000 car...

Dood WEalthy people have no clue what work is. They dont even drive...

And Im not talking about Shatner. Shatner knows how to drive.

[Collegeboy]

So you are saying that poor people shouldn't have children?

The lower strata of workers are paid way under what they should be paid. They can not be given a raise for then the company will have to raise prices, which will make them have to pay more for their stuff which takes away their raise. You can trim the fat from the upper strata, but since they are the ones making the decisions they will more then likely not do it. So you have to have a government regulated and enforced redistribution of the wealth in order to make sure that those who make way under what they should make can survive while trying to keep inflation steady.

You are either on one of the other side of this debate.

You can believe that without government regulations and enforcement the good will of the people will kick in and help those in need.

Or you can think that without government enforcement the good will of the people will force others to starve while looking out for themselves.

Throughout history I feel the last one is correct and the best way to solve this problem is through government regulation, for I see alot more problems with the first then the second.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I think what hes trying to say is Micheal Eisner is worth $500,000,000 million a year more than the people that work 10-6 scrubbing the park for $8 because they push those heavy machines around in the heat and he has to sit at the desk all day or get his dumb butt driven around in everywhere in a $50,000 car...

Dood WEalthy people have no clue what work is. They dont even drive...


Bluntly Eisner IS worth $500 million more then the guy picking up trash. How many trash collecters do you know that could have taken Disney from almost it's deathbed in 84 to the media powerhouse it's become? $500 million is thrown arounds a lot. Do you know what his base salary was until recently? $750K. It'd been $750K since the day he was hired in 84. Granted there are bonus to the tune of 8 or 9 million dollers. That $500 million is from options he exercised which puts him right around the average US ceo over his entire term.

It's all risk vs reward. If a guy picking up trash totally screws up, there's trash laying around. If a CEO totally screws up thousands of people lose their jobs.


Collegeboy - Yes. You just repeated your argument. But you failed to explain what factors are holding down the value of factory workers.

The free market determines prices for things. If the market has determined that the price of a year's labor of a factory worker is $30k (for instance) and that's not what they "should" be making, then something else is a factor.

[ShooterJM]

Yeah I'm a dirty double poster...yadda yadda.


Wait a second. The government gets to decide what I "Should" make and then add or take the rest? I work my butt off for years in school and then at work and you think I should have to give a portion of my income to some shiftless cretin who couldn't be bothered to even apply to a McDonalds?!?!?!?! Hogwash.

Like I said, if you're trying and can't make it, that's one thing. Government mandated redistribution of wealth? Please. If the government is going to calculate what I "Should" earn and give it to me, why should I work at all. Maybe I should just get a job for a few hours a week and have income added to me instead of taken away!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
Yeah I'm a dirty double poster...yadda yadda.


Wait a second. The government gets to decide what I "Should" make and then add or take the rest? I work my butt off for years in school and then at work and you think I should have to give a portion of my income to some shiftless cretin who couldn't be bothered to even apply to a McDonalds?!?!?!?! Hogwash.

Like I said, if you're trying and can't make it, that's one thing. Government mandated redistribution of wealth? Please. If the government is going to calculate what I "Should" earn and give it to me, why should I work at all. Maybe I should just get a job for a few hours a week and have income added to me instead of taken away!

What in the world are you talking about. If these people are making money, they are surely having a job and trying to make it in this world.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
What in the world are you talking about. If these people are making money, they are surely having a job and trying to make it in this world.

So the simple fact of having a job is enough to be qualified as trying your hardest to make it?

Edit: You'll also note in your post that you didn't qualify your idea of wealth redistribution in any way.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by shartley

America is the land of limitless possibilities? LOL you are SO correct…. If you are a single woman, are of “ethnic” background, or are an immigrant. Heaven help you if you are just a run of the mill middle class white male with a family to support and come on hard times for one reason or another….. where is your help then? Where are your “limitless possibilities”?


I have to disagree with you Sam. Yes there are rags to richs stories and riches to rags stories. Yes there is discrimination, both racial and reverse. I still feel that we have the best system there is!

Possibilities are endless! My Grandfather was a day laborer with a 4th grade education. My father is an college educated EVP for a large telecom with a near 7 figure salary. Only in America. No one gave him anything. He wokrked his way through school. (He actually went to a small school in NH that has since been folded into the state's university system) We have no caste system that holds people in a certain class. We have no aristocracy that holds all power!

Look at Bill Clinton. I can't stand the man, but I can respect what he did and where he came from to become the most powerful man in the world at one point in history! Where else but in America could this occur!

Now I did grow up rather well off and had a better start in life then many, but that was as a direct result of my fathers hard work!! But I work for my own money and family now. I pay the mortgage on both homes. I support my paintball "habit". I pay my childrens' tuition to private schools because I want them to have the best. I earn this on my own!! I am no trust fund baby!

Hey CB:
The difference between my father and that factory worker is that after his shift the factory worker goes home and forgets about work. My father, hell me for that matter, takes work everywhere all the time. We don't work 40 hours a week. We work far more!!!

As for the kid issue. That is everyone's personal choice. I do believe strongly in the welfare cap on additional children though. Shock of ages, the ultra liberal supreme court of nj did as well, upholding them. I believe that society has no right to tell a person wether or not to procreate. I also believe that society should not bear the responsibility to pay for every one's choices as well.

Have kids, but they are your kids. You are not entitled to more $ because you can make a big family!!!!

BTW CB, check those figures. Factory workers in Detroit make a hell of a lot more then $30k a year!
;)

[Restola]

Originally posted by ShooterJM
So the simple fact of having a job is enough to be qualified as trying your hardest to make it?

Thats what he thinks. Rich people are only out to abuse and steal money from everyone. They want only to destroy people's lives and keep the working class down to do their evil bidding.

I'm working my butt off and going deep into debt so I can fly planes and make very good money. CB thinks that if I said "screw it, this is too much work", and worked at the grocery store all my life, or "tried to find work but couldn't", or had 6 kids and was hooked on crack by the time I was 18, then I should be entitled to whatever I need from the government because I'm working hard and who are you to judge me? It's not my fault I'm poor...

He also thinks if I do stick with it, continue to work hard, and land a job flying planes, that I should be penelized for it. That my income should be taken away from me and my family to pay the guy who stayed at the grocery store and has children all day long. He thinks that as soon as I start making money I'll hoard it away. I'll never spend it (because that would create jobs), and I'll never try to help anyone else with it.

Who decides this "magic" income number where you are suddenly too rich and are an evil member of society? Why Collegeboy of course.

Doesn't matter how hard you worked. Someone else is jealous and wants your money. Politicians are willing to give it to them.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI

Dood WEalthy people have no clue what work is. They dont even drive...


You have no clue!

Hey a few of us here have given you some career advice. Did you follow through on it? If you do not strive to improve your lot in life, it is not our fault if you are unhappy! Don't whine about it, do something about it!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Hey CB:
The difference between my father and that factory worker is that after his shift the factory worker goes home and forgets about work. My father, hell me for that matter, takes work everywhere all the time. We don't work 40 hours a week. We work far more!!!

As for the kid issue. That is everyone's personal choice. I do believe strongly in the welfare cap on additional children though. Shock of ages, the ultra liberal supreme court of nj did as well, upholding them. I believe that society has no right to tell a person wether or not to procreate. I also believe that society should not bear the responsibility to pay for every one's choices as well.

Have kids, but they are your kids. You are not entitled to more $ because you can make a big family!!!!

BTW CB, check those figures. Factory workers in Detroit make a hell of a lot more then $30k a year!
;)

But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.

I use the numbers of my area for I am familiar with them. In Detroit it also cost more to live, rent is more the 250 a month for a two bed room apartment that is livable.

It is my belief that pay is just about equal for he same job all over the states (for a factory) when you consider living experiences)

Restola, I never said that. Where did you get that.

You keep using drug references, why?

I think you and others have no clue of what I am saying.

Is a guy going to stay flipping burgers at BK for 40 years. No. He is going to work his way up at the factory or what ever he does. When we are talking about the 20,000 dollar people, we are not talking about a 50 year old man, we are normally talking about people between the ages of 18 to 27 or so.

[shartley]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


I have to disagree with you Sam. Yes there are rags to richs stories and riches to rags stories. Yes there is discrimination, both racial and reverse. I still feel that we have the best system there is!

Possibilities are endless! My Grandfather was a day laborer with a 4th grade education. My father is an college educated EVP for a large telecom with a near 7 figure salary. Only in America. No one gave him anything. He wokrked his way through school. (He actually went to a small school in NH that has since been folded into the state's university system) We have no caste system that holds people in a certain class. We have no aristocracy that holds all power!

Look at Bill Clinton. I can't stand the man, but I can respect what he did and where he came from to become the most powerful man in the world at one point in history! Where else but in America could this occur!

Now I did grow up rather well off and had a better start in life then many, but that was as a direct result of my fathers hard work!! But I work for my own money and family now. I pay the mortgage on both homes. I support my paintball "habit". I pay my childrens' tuition to private schools because I want them to have the best. I earn this on my own!! I am no trust fund baby!

And you know what 1st? You are more than entitled to your opinion and to disagree with me. And you know what? I also agree that we have the best system there is… but that does not say that it offers everyone the grand plan as you think it does…. Because it simply does not.

You show that you have a solid base to begin life from, and yet then try to act like your success is because of forces other than that fact? I don’t agree with that. I DO agree that you work hard for what you have yourself, but I also believe that you were given opportunities that many people don’t have who don’t have the financial backing/background you had. And it is that background and starting point that gave you a GREAT advantage in the system.

Am I saying this is a “bad” thing? Heck no. But at least be honest about it. ;) And it does not take away ANY of your accomplishments in life, not at all. But it is a bit inane to think that everyone has the same opportunity or “potential” for success in our society… even less so when you have not experienced the downside yourself, as an adult or as a child. But this is the mantra of the successful, and always has been…… it is also why businesses like Amway did so well.. sell the “dream” not the cream.

If hard work was all it took to become successful in life and reach the “American Dream” then we would be a country filled with far more successes than we have. But the simple truth is that most businesses fail, and most people no matter how hard they work will never significantly advance past the level that those around them allow them to. This does not say that some will not, but you as a banker should know that the odds are not in the average man’s favor.

Yes, we live in a society that allows SOME to advance, but not all. The playing fields are NOT level for all people no matter what you may think. It takes more than hard work and dedication to “succeed” in life and live the “American Dream”. It takes a great deal of LUCK as well and support from others around us. And that also includes society in general…. Which at this point is not set up to help the average white male…. like it or not.

You use Bill Clinton as an example? Yeah, he got to everyplace he has risen to all by himself, right? Not by a long shot. He was groomed and supported the entire way. Heck, most “self made men” are far from actually being so. And the days of our grandparents are long gone. My Father-on-Law has told me about his job hunting after he got out of the service and how he got a job just by keeping on going back twice a week and asking them…… think that works now days? LOL I can tell you that it does NOT.

The days of Camelot are long gone in the US. But that also does not mean folks should give up. It just means that folks need to be realistic in their goals and how things work. And reaching the “American Dream” from nothing is an exception to the rule, not the rule.

I didn’t mean to strike a nerve with you, honestly I didn’t. I feel some anger in your post and possibly some need to prove something to others and yourself? Trust me, you have NOTHING to prove to anyone.

And in your own post you show that you are assisting your children to better their lives and carry on the great tradition and status in society that your Grandfather and Father started before you. That is WONDERFUL! And I take my hat off to you for it.

But please, to think that everyone in this day and age is given the same opportunities, and has the same potentials in life is a bit naive. It is easy to sit back and talk about a legacy, and what our lineage has done… it is yet another starting from nothing ourselves, and even more so while being dealt a few bad cards… and NOW as opposed to 30, 50, or more years ago.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Restola, I never said that. Where did you get that.
I think I nailed exactly what you are really saying, since you are too affraid for whatever reason of just comming out and saying exactly what you think. You float all around the subject without stating any workable solutions. My FIRST posts nails everything I think on this subject (the rest has been responding to stuff). We need to collect pages of your posts to even begin to understand you.

So far we know:
1. You think without government redistributing wealth poor people would starve in our streets as the American people are too greedy to help.

2. You want our government to have some socialist programs.

3. You think the hardest working people are the one's who aren't even making enough to get by (so hard work doesn't corelate at all to greater income).

4. You think the only reason executives are paid more is because they underpay (exploit) their employees (not becuase they are talented, or created new jobs, or increase efficiency)

5. You think that anyone can have as many children as they want, and there should be no responsibility on their part to be prepared financially for it (so the state should pay for all of it).

6. Anyone who is making money is trying as hard as anyone else.

So based on that information, everything I said seems right down your ally. You don't think people who earn more than a certain amount of money should keep it. You think it should be taken from them and given to someone you (or in reality some politician) thinks deserves it. You think that will make America better because people are too greedy to help anyone but themselves.

Where am I wrong? Tell us in a brief and complete post how you think the system should work.

Here is my complete plan from my first post in this thread:


...I have no problem with PRIVATE CITIZENS stepping in and helping people, that's there choice. They can provide specific help. They can choose who needs help, and who is trying to get a free ride. I have no problem with people donating to causes they believe in. That includes churches and other religious organizations. But the government should stay out of it.
Now it's your turn (and everyone can play, it'll be fun).

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Restola

I think I nailed exactly what you are really saying, since you are too affraid for whatever reason of just comming out and saying exactly what you think. You float all around the subject without stating any workable solutions. My FIRST posts nails everything I think on this subject (the rest has been responding to stuff). We need to collect pages of your posts to even begin to understand you.

I have posted my beliefs many times on this thread and in others. I am not wanting a change in the system (other then some clean up in money allocations) but backing the system we have now. Something that is clearly noted in just about all my post. But to understand it, you have to throw away what you think I am saying, and go off of what I am saying, I will say exactly what I am thinking. There should be no I think you are saying this. For I am saying exactly what you see.

So far we know:
1. You think without government redistributing wealth poor people would starve in our streets as the American people are too greedy to help.

Human beings will always be human beings, throughout recent history (older history before the industrial revolution is pointless for it is a different world)that this idea of the public feeding the poor and taking care of them will not work, more will die then need be.

2. You want our government to have some socialist programs.

Yep

3. You think the hardest working people are the one's who aren't even making enough to get by (so hard work doesn't corelate at all to greater income).

What did I say? I said that when compared to the upper pay scale the lower pay scale works harder for the money they receive.

4. You think the only reason executives are paid more is because they underpay (exploit) their employees (not becuase they are talented, or created new jobs, or increase efficiency)

I said that is how the company can afford to pay the executives their high salary. If the company paid the workers what they should, then they couldn't afford to pay the upper end the money they once made.

5. You think that anyone can have as many children as they want, and there should be no responsibility on their part to be prepared financially for it (so the state should pay for all of it).

I think that no one should be denied the right to have a child for they work in a job that pays far less then they should get paid for and can't afford it.

6. Anyone who is making money is trying as hard as anyone else.

So based on that information, everything I said seems right down your ally. You don't think people who earn more than a certain amount of money should keep it. You think it should be taken from them and given to someone you (or in reality some politician) thinks deserves it. You think that will make America better because people are too greedy to help anyone but themselves.

Where am I wrong? Tell us in a brief and complete post how you think the system should work.

Here is my complete plan from my first post in this thread:

Now it's your turn (and everyone can play, it'll be fun).

You have to stop thinking of these government programs as some program that makes people lazy, that is a hand out to those too lazy to do better for themselves. You have got to look at them as a way to keep the economy stable when their is a huge range in the rich and the poor.

For without them, the upper strata will make far less then they are making now, even when you cut the tax down. For without them, they will be forced to raise the pay of the lower pay scale so that they can afford to live and work and produce the goods of the company. The company can not raise prices for then the pay raise would be useless, so they have to cut the salaries of the upper pay scales.

Now the way the system is set up now is perfect. You have a vast difference from upper to lower, but you have the upper class paying taxes to keep their wages up, and to settle the lower class whose the upper classes wealth is derived from. The lower class is then given income supplements in the areas of food stamps, renters help, daycare assistance, etc..... All designed to lower the living cost of the lower wage people in order that they can survive on their meager salary.

It is a + for all (well except for the middle class who bares the pain of all economic programs)

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy


But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.

See, that's the kind of ignorant statement that really gets to me. Sure, the factory worker may be putting in more manual labor then I or Deadeye is, but to make a blanket statement that he puts in more work is just insane. You know, not all people that work in "white collar" jobs just drink tea and golf. I get into work every day at 7 am and don't usually leave until well after 9pm. I defy anyone to show me a typical factory worker that puts in more time then I do, or more work (there are always exceptions, I know). Just becaues I'm not lifting boxes around doesn't mean I'm not working. How many factory workers do you know run the risk of being put in prison for a simple mistake filing with the SEC? I risk more then they do, and I'm paid for it.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy
You have to stop thinking of these government programs as some program that makes people lazy, that is a hand out to those too lazy to do better for themselves. You have got to look at them as a way to keep the economy stable when their is a huge range in the rich and the poor.

Wrong. It is a handout. It's nothing more then a handout. It shouldn't be, and everyone once in a while someone tries to change it, but it never quite flies. Welfare states do not keep economies stable, they do just the opposite. The problem with entitlement societies is that once the entitlements start, they never stop, which will eventually lead to an increase in taxes and will act as a deterent to economic growth

For without them, the upper strata will make far less then they are making now, even when you cut the tax down. For without them, they will be forced to raise the pay of the lower pay scale so that they can afford to live and work and produce the goods of the company. The company can not raise prices for then the pay raise would be useless, so they have to cut the salaries of the upper pay scales.

You're not looking at the whole cycle of the economy. First, entitlement programs are a huge drag on the economy, and their disappearence would make a huge difference to everyone, not just businesses. Once the middle class have their taxes cut 10% (give or take) that would create an enormeous boon to the economy and stimulate growth. A stimulated growth is what's needed to employ more and more workers and at a better wage. Their will always be a lower class, but there is upward mobility in this country for people that work at it. A low skill worker that really puts the effort in is worth more then a low skill worker that doesn't, and that is reflected by raises, promotion, and the ability to switch jobs.

Now the way the system is set up now is perfect. You have a vast difference from upper to lower, but you have the upper class paying taxes to keep their wages up, and to settle the lower class whose the upper classes wealth is derived from. The lower class is then given income supplements in the areas of food stamps, renters help, daycare assistance, etc..... All designed to lower the living cost of the lower wage people in order that they can survive on their meager salary.

I'm sorry, I was uncontrolably vommiting when I read that the system is perfect. I didn't even get to the next line. Suffice to say that it isn't perfect, and whatever justification you gave for it being so is wrong. Once I calm down maybe I'll elaborate

It is a + for all (well except for the middle class who bares the pain of all economic programs)

Um, right. The system is great, unless your in the class that constitutes the bulk of Americans. So long as you're in the top 1% or the bottom 1% it's the best ever. Just don't be in the majority.

Uh huh, brilliant.

[Star_Base_CGI]

I dont care how many paragraphs of BS you post. Your not going to get any of us to understand that Rich people deserve money and the rest of us deserve to live like pigs.

We pay taxs. Money spent on poor people is better spent than $500,000,000,000 spent bombing thrid world countries...

Jesus said do you love me and peter said yes.

Than Jesus said. If you love me. Feed my sheep.

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I dont care how many paragraphs of BS you post. Your not going to get any of us to understand that Rich people deserve money and the rest of us deserve to live like pigs.

We pay taxs. Money spent on poor people is better spent than $500,000,000,000 spent bombing thrid world countries...

Jesus said do you love me and peter said yes.

Than Jesus said. If you love me. Feed my sheep.

Not to be a *Explitive Deleted* but just because you don't understand it doesn't mean it's BS. No one "Deserves" anything.

Note that Jesus also said "The poor will ALWAYS be with you". Wake up, there will always be someone who is poor by comparison.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Collegeboy


But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.

See, that's the kind of ignorant statement that really gets to me. Sure, the factory worker may be putting in more manual labor then I or Deadeye is, but to make a blanket statement that he puts in more work is just insane. You know, not all people that work in "white collar" jobs just drink tea and golf. I get into work every day at 7 am and don't usually leave until well after 9pm. I defy anyone to show me a typical factory worker that puts in more time then I do, or more work (there are always exceptions, I know). Just becaues I'm not lifting boxes around doesn't mean I'm not working. How many factory workers do you know run the risk of being put in prison for a simple mistake filing with the SEC? I risk more then they do, and I'm paid for it.

Do you risk your life everyday at work? You might risk being put in jail, but one mistake by them and they can lose a limb, or their life.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Do you risk your life everyday at work? You might risk being put in jail, but one mistake by them and they can lose a limb, or their life.

And you're point is what?

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I dont care how many paragraphs of BS you post. Your not going to get any of us to understand that Rich people deserve money and the rest of us deserve to live like pigs.

We pay taxs. Money spent on poor people is better spent than $500,000,000,000 spent bombing thrid world countries...

Jesus said do you love me and peter said yes.

Than Jesus said. If you love me. Feed my sheep.

Well, now I know you're completely gone :)

If rich people don't deserve money then who does? No really, who?

If there's no reward for innovation why do it?
If there's no reward for employing thousands why bother?
If there's no reward for suceeding why try?

And who lives like pigs? I don't, so don't be lumping me into your group of pig dwellers

As for bombing other nations, a completely seperate issue to be sure. But suffice to say that the primary role of any government is to protect it's citizens. Whether we agree with how that's done or not is a different story, but defense should always be the first thing governments think about.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


And you're point is what?

You said one mistake in your job and you can but put in jail. I said one mistake in the job of many of the laborers and they can be killed. The point should be easy.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.



Labor doesn't just mean lugging boxes! Using your intelligence can be much harder then using your back. It also is much more stressful! I work hard and take issue with you saying I don't work hard. Especially considering that you as a college student don't work at all!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Labor doesn't just mean lugging boxes! Using your intelligence can be much harder then using your back. It also is much more stressful! I work hard and take issue with you saying I don't work hard. Especially considering that you as a college student don't work at all!

Again people read more into what I write other then what I write.

Read back, where did I say you did not work.

Why don't you learn more about the person you are talking about before you talk about them?

[ShooterJM]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Don't you find it sad that a person is forced to work 80+ hours a week just to survive, while other working less hours and far less labor, are making a killing off of the labor of the poor.



Originally posted by Collegeboy
But the difference is in the 40 hours the factory worker probably puts in more labor if not equal, then you do in 80 or what ever you work.


Are you really saying that the above two quotes DON'T, in fact, state that rich workers work far less hours and don't work nearly as hard as poor workers?

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by shartley

And you know what 1st? You are more than entitled to your opinion and to disagree with me. And you know what? I also agree that we have the best system there is… but that does not say that it offers everyone the grand plan as you think it does…. Because it simply does not.

You show that you have a solid base to begin life from, and yet then try to act like your success is because of forces other than that fact? I don’t agree with that. I DO agree that you work hard for what you have yourself, but I also believe that you were given opportunities that many people don’t have who don’t have the financial backing/background you had. And it is that background and starting point that gave you a GREAT advantage in the system.

Am I saying this is a “bad” thing? Heck no. But at least be honest about it. ;)

I stated this. I did not claim to come from humble roots. My father did! My father is my hero. He came from nothing to be a very successfull and wealthy man. He had no guardian angel moving him up the ladder. He did it all on his own! He came out of the military in 1972 and went to work for IBM. The military had moved him from NJ to Baltimore. As I was an infant then, my mom has told me stories about how poor we were back then. To this day, my father still will not eat baloney, because that is the only meat they could afford while he was in the service. My father struggled to make it. He moved into management and moved us to Bethesda in 1979. He left IBM for a start up called MCI and the rest is history. He sacrificed so that my brothers and I could have the best start possible. For this I will be eternally greatfull and will strive to do the same for my sons!

I didn’t mean to strike a nerve with you, honestly I didn’t. I feel some anger in your post and possibly some need to prove something to others and yourself? Trust me, you have NOTHING to prove to anyone.

No anger intended. My father is my hero and I am incredibly proud of how as a product of a 4th grade educated laborer became a very wealthy and successfull man. Hell my father has been in Newsweek and Time!

And in your own post you show that you are assisting your children to better their lives and carry on the great tradition and status in society that your Grandfather and Father started before you. That is WONDERFUL! And I take my hat off to you for it.

I feel that I owe the best start in life to my children!

I do not feel that I owe it to everyone elses children. My wife and I go pass on many personal luxary items so that we can save for our children. I don't get a new car every year. I keep my cars for as long as feasible. I don't go on vacation to exotic places all the time. Hel even our shore home is an investment!

[Star_Base_CGI]

This thread has gone totally retarded.

Apparantly real wealthy people deserve more money than they could ever spend, just as much as poor people deserve to starve or sleep in the streets..

We will see what happens when the real grab for power begins because where I live theres about 500,000 angry, hungry minorites. The real civil unrest we have in America is about the disparity between the wealthy and the poor.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


You said one mistake in your job and you can but put in jail. I said one mistake in the job of many of the laborers and they can be killed. The point should be easy.

Ok, I suppose in certain factory posistions there is an outside chance of serious injury or death. Which is why there are safety protocols and insurance to prevent, and in case, such an accident should occur.

It is rare, but I suppose it happens.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Apparantly real wealthy people deserve more money than they could ever spend, just as much as poor people deserve to starve or sleep in the streets..

That about sums it up. But you forgot to same some before both real wealthy and poor. It's really not fair to say all rich people work hard and deserve what they have and all poor people are lazy drug addicts that deserve their lot in life.

We will see what happens when the real grab for power begins because where I live theres about 500,000 angry, hungry minorites. The real civil unrest we have in America is about the disparity between the wealthy and the poor.

Wow, 1/2 a million? That's a lot. They all fit in the NCC 1701 Command Bridge? Very impressive.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by ShooterJM





Are you really saying that the above two quotes DON'T, in fact, state that rich workers work far less hours and don't work nearly as hard as poor workers?


Read my statement, I said while other (should add an s) work far less hours and far less labor. Should be pretty easy to understand. Did I say that all rich people work less hours and less labor then the poor, no. I said other(s).

Albinonewt

And there are saftey protocals and procedures and laws to prevent you from going to jail. People get seriously hurt all the time in labor jobs.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


Ok, I suppose in certain factory posistions there is an outside chance of serious injury or death. Which is why there are safety protocols and insurance to prevent, and in case, such an accident should occur.

It is rare, but I suppose it happens.

You mean like maybe, Uranium Processing plants or steal workers?

Steal workers are some of the lowest paid people around. They make like $13 an hour to handle stuff so hot it would burn your teeth instantly and...

Now Bethlehem steal is closed. All those people lost their healthcare!

Show me the money.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
Albinonewt

And there are saftey protocals and procedures and laws to prevent you from going to jail. People get seriously hurt all the time in labor jobs.

Fair enough, but when was the last time a factory worker caused (in total or in part) an Enron like catastrophe? There is a far different level of responsibility in between those too levels.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI


You mean like maybe, Uranium Processing plants or steal workers?

Steal workers are some of the lowest paid people around. They make like $13 an hour to handle stuff so hot it would burn your teeth instantly and...

Now Bethlehem steal is closed. All those people lost their healthcare!


Why is Bethlehem Steel closed? Blame the unions!!! They killed it. Their contract demands left the plant unable to compete with cheap imported steel. Hence they were killed off. Was this the fault of the rich ceo? No, he needed that labor force and the union refused to make the necessary give-backs to keep the plant afloat! Believe me CGI this is not a debate you are going to win! I know far more about the Bethlehem Steel debacle than you could ever hope to know. We were one of their many creditors!

Unions have a place in America. They should be to ensure safe and secure work environments. They should not kill the goose that laid the golden eggs, which they have done far to often. Go ahead argue this point! Why do all of the import car manufacturers set up shop in right to work states? How do they make money while Detriot suffers?

Want the best joke of all? The NEA or as I call it the National Extortion Association! You want to blame someone for the poor quality of schools, look no further. NJ spends amoung the highest per pupil in the country, yet little gets to the classroom because of the NEA. Incompetent and ineffective teachers can not be removed. I believe teaching to be a noble and difficult profession. However, it is not for everybody! The unions have protected bad teachers though for far too long!

[Albinonewt]

Deadeye is right.

Except that I would argue Unions no longer have their place in America, I think we're besically on the same page.

Unions have done more to destroy this country in the last couple of decades then just about any other interest group.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Deadeye is right.

Except that I would argue Unions no longer have their place in America, I think we're besically on the same page.

Unions have done more to destroy this country in the last couple of decades then just about any other interest group.
I would say they had their place, but they are starting to see fallout from what they are doing. The insanely rich people who run the unions (they forcelower middle class workers to pay them tons of money) are not always doing the right thing.

I have no problems with unions existing as they originally did (a group of people working together to change something they didn't like). But the way it often works now is not really helping anyone as much as it should.

[Restola]

...and Star_Base_CGI...

Rather than yelling something and expecting us to agree with you simply because you said it, how about you type up a logical arguement to support your ideas. Collegeboy did it, and although I obviously don't agree with him, at least we can begin to understand why he thinks what he does.

It would probably work better than the childish whining.

[1stdeadeye]

CGI,
I gave you some viable options. Have you contacted any of these companies yet?

Please you have to want to better yourself and avial yourself of the options in your area. I truly wish you the best of luck in your endeavors.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Restola

I would say they had their place, but they are starting to see fallout from what they are doing. The insanely rich people who run the unions (they forcelower middle class workers to pay them tons of money) are not always doing the right thing.

I have no problems with unions existing as they originally did (a group of people working together to change something they didn't like). But the way it often works now is not really helping anyone as much as it should.

The reason I'm not a fan of Union's continueing to exist anymore is that they simply don't do any good these days. All the good that really needed to be done has been done. The laws now, by and large, protect the little guy. The government maintains serveral branches and offices of varying degrees to provide enormeous amounts of worker protection. All Unions serve to do now is to extort businesses and make them uncompetitive. I feel that Unions no longer have their place in society, certainly not as they exist today.

I would be in favor of unions existing s they did previously, if there was any reason for them to, and I don't feel there is anymore

[Star_Base_CGI]

All the Banks I applied for dont have any white people working for them except for one manager... I hate Banks anyway.

If you dont truly belive something is wrong with America look around...

See Golf Course/train depot/ghetto. SOme of the only places that you have scenerios like we have to day is in Nazi Germany...

We lay people off people than fly illegal immigrents in to work. Its true. The government put a contract up to have a Golf Course and a Train Depot hooked up with a greenway/back road... In my neighborhood Gwyenes Falls Md via Mexicans... If Americans workers see that things are being spent on projects to make America look like a giant concentration camp it would be in the news. When the FAA was ordered to get right the Air Industry they had to fire the Illegal Mexicans....

Mexicans doing security at our Airports VIa Wackinghut?

Hello? WHats wrong here?

Schools. We pay Adminstrators all the money. No money for teachers. Screw the teachers. The kids are dumb they dont deserve to get paid. The Obvious answer is to fire the adminstrators and let the teachers teach. In the past teacher got paid and Johnny could read but no more.

WHy hire Mexicans to work for good pay? Because the government can make them do things that are unamerican and they dont complain.

Granted there is always hope and things might not be as bad as we think but should we put our heads in the sand... No. Theres alot of famous people that are loaded up with m-16s and M-1. I know a "Collector" Thats has in his collection over 100 M-1s. Ozzys got enough Guns for WWIII.

The Baltimroe police has started confisicating large caches of guns under homeland defense. Weve had 2 arrests this week with people who had over 50 guns in their houses and its been in the news. The News Media wants you to know, if you have a cache. Make sure its in a good hiding place before the office of homeland comes for your assault rifles...

Good times are coming...

Lets see the Bethlehem Steal thing. Yes we do have companies come here making a profit. Japanese companies started coming here in the 80s, buying used car plants and making cars. They make money but why not Beth steal...

Blame the employees. The greedy EMployeees and their outragouse $12 an hour salaries far outweighed the cost of importing TONS of steal overseas in the water for months at a time...

Its obvious the gredy owners were stealing the money.

Which brings me to another point.

Enron... Not one Enron Employee has spent the month in Jail. The only one that got anything is the one that blew his brains out and is rotting in a Jail called Hell...

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and flys like a duck. Than its a freaking duck.

The Fact that 100 People applied to this thread and had so many inteligent things to say proves without a doubt that things in this country need improving...

Not that anything is "wrong" with this coutnry but that us people here who are patriotic love it and would like to see things improved. So that we dont end up like Nazi Germany.

To the rest of you who say things in this country are fine the way they are I say. PBBTBTBTBTBTB

Read the Paper... goto http://MSNBC.com

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
All the Banks I applied for dont have any white people working for them except for one manager... I hate Banks anyway.

Well, what are the demographics in the area? When I worked in Baltimore all 8 of my employees were black, and so was my boss. You know why? Because Baltimore has a large number of black people. There's nothing wrong with that. Well, my employees all made fun of me for listening to metal, but I don't think that really counts.

If you dont truly belive something is wrong with America look around...

Well, of course there are some things that are wrong.

See Golf Course/train depot/ghetto. SOme of the only places that you have scenerios like we have to day is in Nazi Germany...

Huh? Yeah, darned golfing Nazis. They should burn!

We lay people off people than fly illegal immigrents in to work. Its true. The government put a contract up to have a Golf Course and a Train Depot hooked up with a greenway/back road... In my neighborhood Gwyenes Falls Md via Mexicans... If Americans workers see that things are being spent on projects to make America look like a giant concentration camp it would be in the news. When the FAA was ordered to get right the Air Industry they had to fire the Illegal Mexicans....

I'm having a hard time understanding this part as well. I think you're telling me that the government is intentionall hiring illegals. It's possible, stranger things have happened. That's why we need to get the illegals out of the country, but that's not going to happen until a major problem occurs.

Mexicans doing security at our Airports VIa Wackinghut?

Hello? WHats wrong here?

Well, there can be legal Mexican immigrants. But, again, nothing is impossible

Schools. We pay Adminstrators all the money. No money for teachers. Screw the teachers. The kids are dumb they dont deserve to get paid. The Obvious answer is to fire the adminstrators and let the teachers teach. In the past teacher got paid and Johnny could read but no more.

Oh, the obvious answer? Well, here's the thing with the schools. Teachers do make pretty good money, nothing to sneeze at. In NJ a brand new teacher right out of college make a little more then $35,000 a year for only working 9 months out of the year. Although the administrators are over paid, but nearly everyone in the system is. Thank the Unions. Oh, and you can thank them for the stellar ciriculum as well.

WHy hire Mexicans to work for good pay? Because the government can make them do things that are unamerican and they dont complain.

To be fair, they're not typically hired for good pay, that's how they get the jobs, by undercutting.

Granted there is always hope and things might not be as bad as we think but should we put our heads in the sand... No. Theres alot of famous people that are loaded up with m-16s and M-1. I know a "Collector" Thats has in his collection over 100 M-1s. Ozzys got enough Guns for WWIII.

So, I have over 50 guns, so what? I collect guns, that's how i got into paintball. We do have a right to bear arms in this country (although the State of NJ doesn't want you knowing about it)

The Baltimroe police has started confisicating large caches of guns under homeland defense. Weve had 2 arrests this week with people who had over 50 guns in their houses and its been in the news. The News Media wants you to know, if you have a cache. Make sure its in a good hiding place before the office of homeland comes for your assault rifles...

No, the media wants you to know that guns are evil, and so are all people that own them....

Good times are coming...

The market was up over 90 points today and unemployment is dropping.

Lets see the Bethlehem Steal thing. Yes we do have companies come here making a profit. Japanese companies started coming here in the 80s, buying used car plants and making cars. They make money but why not Beth steal...

It's a little more complicated then that.

Blame the employees. The greedy EMployeees and their outragouse $12 an hour salaries far outweighed the cost of importing TONS of steal overseas in the water for months at a time...

Well, to the best of my knowledge it was actually the precious employees that did most of the damage. You see, the steel industry had to settle with the Unions a while back, and a big part of that was pensions. Basically, the unions gave them a choice, be destroyed today or tomorrow, and the industry chose to be destroyed later rather then sooner. And it happened.

Its obvious the gredy owners were stealing the money.

Ah, it's obvious again!

Which brings me to another point.

Enron... Not one Enron Employee has spent the month in Jail. The only one that got anything is the one that blew his brains out and is rotting in a Jail called Hell...

Michael Kopper was convicted and so was David Duncan. More to come I'm sure

If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck and flys like a duck. Than its a freaking duck.

Duck Season! Wabbit Season! Duck Season!

The Fact that 100 People applied to this thread and had so many inteligent things to say proves without a doubt that things in this country need improving...

100 people? I didn't count that many

Not that anything is "wrong" with this coutnry but that us people here who are patriotic love it and would like to see things improved. So that we dont end up like Nazi Germany.

No, things need work. But, eventually it'll happen.

To the rest of you who say things in this country are fine the way they are I say. PBBTBTBTBTBTB

You know, I only understand like every other paragraph you write. It's starting to freak me out.

Read the Paper... goto http://MSNBC.com

I went there, what am I looking for?

[mag-hatter]

the quality of life is going down because of tellevision, movies, and the internet. i personally dont ever think it will get better again. there are two outcomes of what may happen. since there is more violence and whatnot, there could be partial anarchy all over america OR absolute political correctness which would be even worse.

[Restola]

Originally posted by mag-hatter
the quality of life is going down because of tellevision, movies, and the internet.
I think thats one of the worst ideas stated yet. People should be responsible for their actions. In addition the problems we have gone over are very broad, and I don't think a little sex on tv is enough to pull the country down.


And Star_Base_CGI, I'm not trying to directly attack you, but it will come across like that anyways. Either you are drunk, you can't keep a steady thought, or are very young (and you sound that way). If you want to participate thats great, but play a more useful role if you are going to try to convince people to agree with you (or even fight through an entire one of your posts). Think things through before you type. You entire last post was an aimless rant. It removes your credibility if you are just going to whine. What are the broad problems you see (don't pick random snips from a newspaper, explain the larger problem as you see it)? What do you think we should do to fix the problems you see? This is what other members are doing and it is effective.

Make a reasonably intelligent (and intelligible) post. Please.

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by Restola

I think thats one of the worst ideas stated yet. People should be responsible for their actions. In addition the problems we have gone over are very broad, and I don't think a little sex on tv is enough to pull the country down.


And Star_Base_CGI, I'm not trying to directly attack you, but it will come across like that anyways. Either you are drunk, you can't keep a steady thought, or are very young (and you sound that way). If you want to participate thats great, but play a more useful role if you are going to try to convince people to agree with you (or even fight through an entire one of your posts). Think things through before you type. You entire last post was an aimless rant. It removes your credibility if you are just going to whine. What are the broad problems you see (don't pick random snips from a newspaper, explain the larger problem as you see it)? What do you think we should do to fix the problems you see? This is what other members are doing and it is effective.

Make a reasonably intelligent (and intelligible) post. Please.

If you had an IQ above that of an average snail myabe you would understand what were talking about.

I dont agree with attacking people but since you insist.

Gee I wonder who pays for TV, Radio and other media? Hrm.

[Albinonewt]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
If you had an IQ above that of an average snail myabe you would understand what were talking about.

Well, Starbase, the thing is, the rest of us are having a perfectly civil conversation, and you occasionally roll in and yell at the top of you lungs "Purple Fuzzy Maple Syrup Monkeys!" Most of us have a hard time even discussing things with you because we can't translate what you're saying. I really think you need to follow a train of thought more clearly when you type. It may seem clear to you, but you know what you're thinking. The rest of us are having some trouble.

I dont agree with attacking people but since you insist.

So don't. If you think you were personally attacked then be the bigger man and move on

Gee I wonder who pays for TV, Radio and other media? Hrm.

PEACH BUFFALO BANANA SLIPPERS!

[Star_Base_CGI]

OMG thats it "Purple Fuzzy Maple Syrup Monkeys!"

[gibby]

Originally posted by mag-hatter
the quality of life is going down because of tellevision, movies, and the internet.
I would have to agree and disagree. I agree that there are more visible acts of violence in whatever media you want to look at...but I disagree that lowers the quality of life.

The problem lies within the person. If a person is going to allow what s/he sees on tv, movies, internet, radio, etc..and allow that to affect their lives in a negative way without even being directly involved with the incident, then you have problems. I'm not saying you're not allowed to be compasionaite, sad, or feel anything emotional from hearing, seeing those things. But to use those incidents for your own shortcoming in life is very weak of you.

First off, everyone is in control of their own life. No matter what happens to them, it's their will, maturity, determination that will make a difference. If you want to be overwhelmed with negativity, and refuse to see the other positive things around you, and let that motivate you to keep on trying...then you are a lost cause. No amount of ranting or whining can help you because no matter how much others try to make you see, you're always falling back to your little hole which always seems to get deeper and deeper as time goes on.

There are those who are lucky enough to be provided with everything they could ever want and hope for. But there are those who work for what they have. I respect those types of people more because it shows great character to overcome whatever hurdles comes your way.

[aaron_mag]

Glad to see that 1stdeadeye stuck to his goal of not getting drawn into this debate :D.

Been gone at training all week. Talk about mindnumbing boredom. Okay here is my point. Restola you talk about that this country working fine for 150 years with no government intervention. You are totally correct but it was not the idyllic scene you seem to imagine. We also had slavery which certainly worked fine as an economic system. Should we return to that as well? Our view of basic human services has become more "enlightened" since the days of our founding fathers.

I actually agree with you when I you say there is going to be big changes. I don't, however, think it is because those lazy lower classes that aren't willing to work. The real issue is that our population is getting older. How are we going to support retirement benefits (like social security) when we have a smaller working population taking care of a large elderly population (the baby boomers)? It ain't going to be pretty.

You like to act like the those of us who don't agree with you are lazy or stupid. I work hard. A high percentage of my income goes to pay taxes. As I said I don't disagree with you that there is some waste and we may be headed towards some problems. I don't, however, think we should get rid of any form of government assistance and shrink government down to nothing. People often make the mistaken assumption that they would make more money if they paid less in taxes. The fact is, however, that our government framework provides the infrastructure for us to earn a living (especially we "professionals"). There is a point where we would all be making alot LESS money if we paid lower taxes.

This country IS NOT full of lazy people who all want to get handouts. From what I have observed while travelling we have one of the (if not THE) hardest working population in the world.

[Lohman446]

Without getting into the debate itself (the "poor" workers making $13/hour??) I would like to consider the first part of the question - is American life going downhill. I need to preface this, as I do not have some of the experiences you all have had. My father works very hard (70 hrs or so a week and takes his work home with him), that being said I have always been in a position in my life where I knew I would not starve and had a solid fall back when things went wrong (and they have). I am spoiled (not to say I have everything I want (I drive a '96 Taurus held together by force of will alone for instance) but I am spoiled in having a safety net. This being said, when I moved out of state to Columbus GA a few years ago, I had a job immediatly - a temp agency, I was hauling boxes, putting up tables, etc. This is regardless of managerial experience, mechanical ability, and college education. I worked this for 2 months before getting a better job. This is my preface, why I may be qualified to say this, why I may not.

QUALITY OF LIFE IN AMERICA HAS NOT GONE DOWNHILL. The movie, Seabiscuit, a movie yes, but consider what it showed. During the depression FOOD was scarce. It was considered a godsend to find a place in a family that could afford to feed you in exchange for labor. Look at some countries - Liberia for example. The starving people have faced people with military weapons just to get to food. As such, to those of you complaining about having to work hard to eat - consider yourselves damned blessed.

The problem is, with each generation, I think... as they get out of their parents house and have to support themselves they find out... holy crap the world is HARD. My paycheck goes to paying the bills and groceries and I have little/no play money.

Consider yourselves blessed, you live in America, where we consider having money to "play" still being lower/middle class. We are comparably rich to other countries/time periods. Being a servant (not to knock them, you will find live in help in America to be an underlooked career path that is a decent option) is no longer a have to for most people, in fact the government seems to serve you. Ok, not perfectly, but they are serving you for little return.

This is America, we are better off then two generations ago (this may be a slide in the advancement of America, I will not go as far as to state we are better off than our parents generation (though I think we are). We do not have to fight for our lives to eat - 40 hours a week is considered a full weeks work (check that statistic, how long did your grandparents work per week for less). We have entertainment (check cable tv subscriptions in say, Kenya - or even electricity for that matter), we have opportunity. What we make of what we have is up to us - do not complain, it is the grace of God (or luck, or whatever you beleive in) that you are here, given the luxury to voice your complaints on the internet rather than keeping your head down to avoid being killed for your beleifs - or because you are hoarding to much food.

[1stdeadeye]

I am done with this debate!

StarBase CGI...You are too wraped up in your self-righteous pity to look for something better. Your statment about not wanting to work for a bank because there are too many blacks is racist at best. Your conspiracy theories are so inane that I care not to disect them. We are all dumber for having read your rants!!

I grew up on Mallow Hill Road, right next to Cannon Park in Baltimore. It will always be my hometown. You want to slam it go ahead, but don't expect everyone to follow your train of thought and congratulate you for your "deep" insights.

Many of your posts here have been incoherent rantings. When Restola pointed this out to you, you compared his intellect to a slug. You claim to have a college degree, yet are poor and unable to find work. Yet you found the money for Shattnerball, eh?

I am done with this thread. Time to hit the Unsubscribe Button!

AM, I am outta this one now!:D

[gibby]

You know, I used to go out with this girl who was too caught up in self pity. She would dwell on things that happened in the past and would use those as an excuse to justify her lack of effort or laziness. She felt like the world owed her everything and felt like an injustice has been done on her when the world didn't take notice.

I hate to say this Starbase...but your attitudes remind me of a lot like her. A lot of people here tried to help you out by giving you advice or suggestions. Some agreed, some disagreed but that doesn't change your overall situation. Just look at yourself and the situation you are in. Did complaining about it and pissing people off with your closed mindedness help you any? All because they didn't agree with you or didn't fall for your pity?

I totally understand that you don't like to respond to what I have to say to you because of what I said a while back. But that's alright. I'm not afraid to give my opinions to you and about you.

But you know, the one good thing about my ex-girlfriend was...she did eventually open her eyes and realize that life wouldn't get any better unless she put some hard effort into making it better. I really can't say the same for you because after all this time, you still moan and groan about being out of work and having a low/no income. Hey, for some $13/hr is enough to keep them afloat. If you want to demand the higher pay rates, prove that you deserve it.

Hell, when I first started working for the company I'm with right now, I was lowballed because I didn't have prior experience. But you know what got me hired? It was my overall attitude of wanting to try real hard and wasn't afraid of hard work. It took around 4 years to finally catch up to the industry standard. You know what? It was worth it! Worth it because I can say that I made it into an industry where others said I couldn't do it.

Am I rich? No. In fact, just this week alone, I worked around 80 hours! Here's the kicker...I didn't earn any overtime hours. So all the work I did this week, I get paid for 40 hours. If you want to moan and groan about something, don't even start with me...keep it to yourself cause you don't get any pity from the hard working people.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye
StarBase CGI...You are too wraped up in your self-righteous pity to look for something better. Your statment about not wanting to work for a bank because there are too many blacks is racist at best.

Didn't see this back there. Sheesh.

My debate is not about the whole StarBase CGI thing. I haven't been following that. What I have a problem with is people who claim that the reason things are tough now (and I don't believe they truly are tougher now) is because of "the government".

I hear the same comment here in Portland all the time. Our tax system is income tax based and people complain and complain about it. Then they go to another city and come back and say, "I couldn't live there! Our city is so beautiful. They have so much traffic, so much sprawl, etc."

Well guess what? You have to pay for having nice things, for having a well designed city, and for having a good place to live! This includes having good public schools and paying for police on the street. Is there waste in our government? Of course. Only Rhode Island spends more on school administration per student while we spend some of the lowest on teachers in the class room. Of course that pisses me off. But that doesn't mean I want no government like some of these right wing radio wackos. There I'm done with my rant!!!!!:D

[845]

Lol, and what does this have to do with the problems in America. Who are you to tell this kid, who isn't much younger than you and I, what he should or shouldn't be singing. Dont act like you know what "kids these days should be doing", your a kid and I'm a kid, saying stuff like that makes you look foolish IMO.


I am sorry you didnt see the sarcasm there.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
But that doesn't mean I want no government like some of these right wing radio wackos. There I'm done with my rant!!!!!:D

Right wingers (me) don't want NO government. We want reduced federal government and federalism.

What you describe is Anarchy, and not our goal at all.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


Right wingers (me) don't want NO government. We want reduced federal government and federalism.

What you describe is Anarchy, and not our goal at all.

The right uses the idea of a smaller government to gain votes, but if you look at what laws they pass, they just want as big of a government as the left, just bigger in different areas.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


The right uses the idea of a smaller government to gain votes, but if you look at what laws they pass, they just want as big of a government as the left, just bigger in different areas.

That's the political right, not the ideological right.

The real problem is that both Republicans and Democrats just use legislation to buy votes so they can stay in office. There's not enough people in government that are actually interested in governing, they just want to be in power and stay there. Look at Bob Byrd. He's been in the Senate for decades and all he's accomplished in that time to ship truck loads of money to West Virginia. People like him are a disgrace. I've always advocated much stricter term limits in order to curb the problems of abuse, but there's almost no chance of that every happening.

Anyways, back to your original point, the conservative right doesn't agree with those tactics, but the Moderate and Liberal Republicans do, in order to stay in power. For most of the conservatives in the government they come from states where they don't need to "soften" up in order to stay in office.

[Star_Base_CGI]

I want a smaller 60v4rnm4nt. Id like some things like Airports and Power lines or grids regulated. SO were not living in the 1950s. The rest of the 60v3rnm3nt can goto Haties.

I dont care if we have nuclear carriers, train stations or any of that garbage. We cant save the world at all and every time we try we screw things up.

It would be nice if the 60v4rnm4nt took care of cleaning public restrooms or parks. The rest of the stuff like homeland defense and the other 200 agencies that you can never reach a number at or get any help for drug dealers at the DEA I could give a rats behind.

[Albinonewt]

Well, you could have said something more ignorant and uninformed, but it would have been tough.

I give it a 9.5

[Restola]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
The real problem is that both Republicans and Democrats just use legislation to buy votes so they can stay in office.
Exactly. I barely even consider Republicans "right" any more. Thanks to the two-party system that (surprisingly enough) the two parties have set up, the voters only have 2 choices (even though Libertarians hold more than 300 elected positions, twice all other third parties combined, you never hear about them anywhere).

Both parties know that the enviro-whackos will never vote for a republican, and the greedy rich will never vote for a democrat, so they spend their time looking just different enough, and playing to the same fraction of voters (the so called "swing" voters), and are now nearly indistinguishable.

Its really too bad that politics attracts politicians.

*edited to fix a wrong number*

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Restola

Exactly. That is why the Constitution gets side-stepped every day.

Its really too bad that politics attracts politicians.

Lets face it what "honest" person would want to do it for the amount of money you get. I actually think Ventura wanted to do good things but after dealing with the press and being attacked when he could earn a larger salary elsewhere he just said screw this!!!

Republicans and Democrats both have their pet projects they want to protect (typically they have financial ties to the pet project as well). That is why I really believe that having a 50/50 split is the best way to go. Trust a bunch of thieves to keep each other in check :D

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Restola
Both parties know that the enviro-whackos will never vote for a republican, and the greedy rich will never vote for a democrat, so they spend their time looking just different enough, and playing to the same fraction of voters (the so called "swing" voters), and are now nearly indistinguishable.


Be fair, the greedy rich vote Democrat on a fairly regular basis as well. After all, Bloomburg, Warren Buffet, the Rockerfellers, and nearly everyone in Hollywood votes Democrat.

But you're certainly right about the crux of your arguement, which is the teacher's union will always vote Democrat so trying to do something about it basically futile. Look at the steel workers. Bush just passed the tarrifs to protect steel and then the unions go and throw their support behind Gephardt.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
That is why I really believe that having a 50/50 split is the best way to go. Trust a bunch of thieves to keep each other in check :D

The problem with that is that literally nothing would ever be accomplished. And while it would be nice for the goverment to stop working in a corrupt fashion I would not like to see it stop working altogether.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
The problem with that is that literally nothing would ever be accomplished.
The problem is that they would continue to scratch eachother's backs :mad:

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Restola

The problem is that they would continue to scratch eachother's backs :mad:

Certainly feasible. Right now I would tend to believe that both parties would dig their heels in and activily obstruct each other and not scratch each other's backs.

On the other hand, since both parties have members that are not ideologically faithful to the party as a whole it is certainly possible that their prescence would be enough to destabilize either party to the point that it had to cut a deal for fear of giving away everything in a sneak attack from within.

The Republicans suffer from that problem more then the democrats.

[Collegeboy]

We could always adopt Russia's way of dealing with this matter. You can make the President on coming to office officially and truly dissolve his affiliation with the party he ran under. This works sometimes, sometimes it doesn't, but when it doesn't, it is just what we have today. When it works, it is better IMO.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
We could always adopt Russia's way of dealing with this matter. You can make the President on coming to office officially and truly dissolve his affiliation with the party he ran under. This works sometimes, sometimes it doesn't, but when it doesn't, it is just what we have today. When it works, it is better IMO.
No offense, but I think even considering adopting anything from a country that LOST the cold war and most of its territory is kind of foolish. And even more so when they have far more problems than we do even with our less than perfect system. :rolleyes:

You may want to find someplace that has actually been halfway successful first, and then think about adopting THEIR system…. Oh, the US is the most successful system of its type… geeee ;)

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by shartley

No offense, but I think even considering adopting anything from a country that LOST the cold war and most of its territory is kind of foolish. And even more so when they have far more problems than we do even with our less than perfect system. :rolleyes:

You may want to find someplace that has actually been halfway successful first, and then think about adopting THEIR system…. Oh, the US is the most successful system of its type… geeee ;)

I could take your post and turn this into another discussion but I will resist questioning many of the topics you said, but will stick to the main one.

What does it matter where it comes from? This idea has nothing to do with the cold war, has nothing to do with a countries economic of other problems, it is a good idea.

A president should be more then just another member of the party, he is supposed to represent the people instead of just his party. That is where this system comes in. It is a good system and it works.
(I saw the smiles but I still have to question)

[shartley]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
I could take your post and turn this into another discussion but I will resist questioning many of the topics you said, but will stick to the main one.

What does it matter where it comes from? This idea has nothing to do with the cold war, has nothing to do with a countries economic of other problems, it is a good idea.

A president should be more then just another member of the party, he is supposed to represent the people instead of just his party. That is where this system comes in. It is a good system and it works.
(I saw the smiles but I still have to question)
I was half joking.. yes. But I was also half totally honest.

Why does it matter where the ideas come from? Because many things sound great on paper but are impractical in practice (look to your own Communism “debates”)… so then, you should also take into consideration where the idea is coming from and its owner’s track record. The former Soviet Union is only mimicking OUR system in an attempt to salvage what little they have left after a long and hard cold war… where they lost almost everything. And this loss of “things” also included political power and control. Their criminal elements have as much power over the populous (if not more) than the actual government does…. And if you can’t see that, you are purposely trying not to.

You are also forgetting that no matter what party any politician belongs to, he/she is a representative of EVERYONE. That goes for local politicians on up to the President. You act like they are only speaking for their “party”, and only care about those in their “party”….. you could not be more wrong. Keeping a party line is not ignoring the masses….. more so when you have to work with others to get things done.

You are also forgetting that our system of government has checks and balances. And that most decisions are not even finalized BY the President.

And what about the race for President? Why would any party back ANY person running for President if they knew that they would not maintain them as a member of their party once elected? And honestly, the idea that someone can totally disavow their “party” once in office and that would change any of their decisions or ways of thinking is pretty naive. Is a cat NOT a cat, and will it stop acting like a cat, just because you want to call it a dog? I am a bit more realistic than to think that.

Again… yeah… let’s follow RUSSIA!!!! Lord knows they have their act together….. heck, let’s just become Communists while we are at it too since that is also GREAT on paper (even though you yourself admit that NO country has ever actually reached true Communism no matter what they called themselves, or what the world has officially recognized them as… why? Because it is impractical in the real world.). And so is having a President “remove” himself from the party that got him elected. Sounds great…… reality is a horse of a different color.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
All the Banks I applied for dont have any white people working for them except for one manager... I hate Banks anyway.http://MSNBC.com

Okay well you know what CGI:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=518276

and so do some of your remarks! Think before you post!

There is an old expression that it is better to be considered a fool then to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Maybe you should close your's now!


*edit to clarify point*

[aaron_mag]

Oh yeah follow Russia's example.....:D

Ninja CPA-
First off you are totally wrong about nothing getting accomplished with a 50/50 split. It is just that ONLY the most common sense stuff that no one dares vote against is allowed to pass. Come on! I thought you wanted smaller government. Having one party actually wielding authority is not the path to smaller government!!!:)

[Star_Base_CGI]

Originally posted by 1stdeadeye


Okay well you know what CGI:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=518276

and so do some of your remarks! Think before you post!

There is an old expression that it is better to be considered a fool then to open one's mouth and remove all doubt. Maybe you should close your's now!


*edit to clarify point*

Im very proud of My Brain farts.

I am very proud of the fact and of the 5 pages of posts on the forum. SOme people acknowledge the fact we have some small problems and theres alot we could do to improve America.

I remember teachers telling us in school about the two party system and how you can only vote one way or the other. Seemed ridiculous at Age 10 you only have two choices to run the greatest country in the world. Seems pretty indicitive to what happens when someone has $80 million to run for offive.

I want to thank the moderators for letting us discuss this somewhat intelligently and rationally. I want to thank everyone here for their opinions. MOst of all I want to thank the feds that took my $2000 in property taxs and built a tran station and a State Office of Homeland Defense Command center for Millions of dollars. While houses and parks sat Vacant in the city.

I wish someone asked me what they could spend the taxs on. Id Say Drug Treatment, Parks or jobs. Not rebates for the wealthy. Wealthy people dont need money. They already own everything. Even Bill Gates Senior said Microsoft does not need rebates.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Oh yeah follow Russia's example.....:D

Ninja CPA-
First off you are totally wrong about nothing getting accomplished with a 50/50 split. It is just that ONLY the most common sense stuff that no one dares vote against is allowed to pass. Come on! I thought you wanted smaller government. Having one party actually wielding authority is not the path to smaller government!!!:)

False.

Even agreeing on what's common sense isn't as easy as it sounds. For instance, with a sub-par job market and the threat of terrorism I think that its blatantly obvious that the borders need to be tightened and illegals removed from the country. I would think that all rational people would think that and that the only debate would be about the implementation of that and to what scale (ie do we kick out everyone, 50%, just people that have been here more then 5 years, less then 5 years, etc.)

Look at the way the Bush judicial nominations are going. For the most part his nominess have nothing really wrong with them. They fit the requirements for being a judge to the courts they were appointed. It is impossible to say otherwise at this point without being a liar. Nearly every judicial advocacy group has said so, and yet the Democrats are filibustering the judges because they don't want people that disagree with them. Even though they are specifically abusing their power of congressional oversight they still do it because they exist to oppose the other party, not to work together, but to fight.

And just so people don't think I only pick on one side. Remember when the Republicans shut down the government just because they hated Clinton? Well, I didn't like him either, but to shut down the government just to prove to everyone you don't like the President? C'mon, it's insane.

The problem isn't the makeup of the congress. Having a majority for either party or no majority at all isn't what makes the system work or not work. The problem for our system is the role that money plays in politics and the power that it wields. The Democrats in my opinion are the most "bought" of the two parties merely because they recieve money from more different kinds of special interest groups. The teachers, union workers, envirnmentalists, civil rights organizations, all have their own competeing agenda and pay their politicians to push it. For the Republicans they receive money primary from smaller donors and from corporations of varying sizes. Being pro business and growth is a fundamental aspect of a supply side economist in the first place, so I don't think business is really buying the Republican as much as they're just paying to get someone they know thinks the same way as them into office.

Anyways, that was long winded, a little confusing, and not really on topic. The point of my little tiraid is that the answer is term limits. Once you take the ability to remain in power for 30 years out of the picture all of a sudden things will start getting done. Politicians won't need to listen to pollsters anymore or worry about re-election campaigns or funding. They'll just be able to work for a few years, and then retire and write a book. And that's what we want. The makeup isn't important, it's the length of time that somoene serves that matters.

The reason government is huge and getting bigger isn't because of the makeup of the congress. It's because everyone agrees that they have to spend money to buy votes. The difference is an incumbant spends our money, and his opponent spends the money of donors.

I wrote an article about this on my website, called "Kick them all out of office, even the ones not named Clinton."

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
I want to thank the moderators for letting us discuss this somewhat intelligently and rationally. I want to thank everyone here for their opinions. MOst of all I want to thank the feds that took my $2000 in property taxs and built a tran station and a State Office of Homeland Defense Command center for Millions of dollars. While houses and parks sat Vacant in the city.

I wish someone asked me what they could spend the taxs on. Id Say Drug Treatment, Parks or jobs. Not rebates for the wealthy. Wealthy people dont need money. They already own everything. Even Bill Gates Senior said Microsoft does not need rebates.

You are aware that the department of Homeland security is staffed by people, right? I mean, there are jobs in that department, lots of them. And train stations employ people too!

And the federal government probably has nothing to do with the parks and houses in your city. They are most likely municipal property and the responsibility of the municipality.

And yeah, parks are supremely important. I wish we could just spend more money on parks and jobs, instead of growing the economy and creating, um, jobs.

And I love it when people that complain about not working tell people that work for a living what they are allowed to spend their money on. That's super!

[Collegeboy]

There is nothing wrong with following the example of Russia and having your president dissolve his political party membership for the time he is a president. The political parties will still push their candidate for they will be of sort of the same ideas. That way you will be electing a person for their ideas not their party. Russia has gone a long way since the Harvard economist messed their country up.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
There is nothing wrong with following the example of Russia and having your president dissolve his political party membership for the time he is a president. The political parties will still push their candidate for they will be of sort of the same ideas. That way you will be electing a person for their ideas not their party. Russia has gone a long way since the Harvard economist messed their country up.

It sounds like it it's a good idea, but it frankly wouldn't change anything. In this case Bush would still BE a Republican, even though he pretended he wasn't, and the opposition would still HATE him more then anything on earth and he would still have to raise funds to run again, which once again is where the real corruption comes in.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


It sounds like it it's a ood idea, but it frankly wouldn't change anything. In this case Bush would still BE a Republican, even though he pretended he wasn't, and the opposition would still HATE him more then anything on earth and he would still have to raise funds to run again, which once again is where the real corruption comes in.
Bingo..

[Restola]

Yeah Russia was full of great ideas.

[Collegeboy]

No see you do not understand what I am saying. A republican is not a set of ideas anymore, everyone in the party does not have the same ideas (Same as any party), so instead of voting for people's ideas many voters vote for their party. This system lessens then impact of the parties in the presidential elections for instead of getting a republican or democrat you are getting a man and his views. It has worked so far in Russia, no reason it shouldn't work here. (Notice I said in my opening remark that it works sometimes and other times it doesn't, but it is those sometimes that make it worth while)

And Russia has come up with a lot of great ideas.

[Albinonewt]

And where does an individual person get the money to run without a party?

And without a party's (loose) set of values what keeps candidates to bounce back and forth between large donors?

It's a terrible idea and wouldn't work here, period.

[aaron_mag]

Yeah Russia has been so stable with their political system (note sarcasm). Please CB! I'm not even going to go there.

Closing down our borders? Take a look at history man! That would be the death of the U.S. as the predominant economic power. Every country that has tried to isolate itself from the world has ended up (and it might take awhile) a second rate nation that is eventually overcome by more vigorous nations. The U.S. has wonderous natural resources and labor force which has served it well. But the real reason it has become great is its acceptance of ideas/people and constant internal revolution. You guys preaching about closing our borders want us to turn inward and make us lose that spark.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Closing down our borders? Take a look at history man! That would be the death of the U.S. as the predominant economic power. Every country that has tried to isolate itself from the world has ended up (and it might take awhile) a second rate nation that is eventually overcome by more vigorous nations. The U.S. has wonderous natural resources and labor force which has served it well. But the real reason it has become great is its acceptance of ideas/people and constant internal revolution. You guys preaching about closing our borders want us to turn inward and make us lose that spark.

Which proves my point about what some people think is common sense others are completely against.

Although frankly, you're not contradicting anything I said, since I didn't say to close the borders. I only said that the security should be tighter and illegals kept out and/or removed. But nobody ever gets that when they debate borders, they always accuse guys like me of wanting to seal up the borders and never allowing anyone in ever again, which isn't true. I fully support legal immigration, and I fully oppose illegal immigration.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


Which proves my point about what some people think is common sense others are completely against.

Although frankly, you're not contradicting anything I said, since I didn't say to close the borders. I only said that the secutiry should be tighter and illegals kept out and/or removed. But nobody ever gets that when the debate borders, they always accuse guys like me of wanting to seal up the borders and never allow anyone in ever again, which isn't true. I fully support legal immigration, and I fully oppose illegal immigration.
As am I. And they are different issues.

[aaron_mag]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


Which proves my point about what some people think is common sense others are completely against.

Although frankly, you're not contradicting anything I said, since I didn't say to close the borders. I only said that the security should be tighter and illegals kept out and/or removed. But nobody ever gets that when they debate borders, they always accuse guys like me of wanting to seal up the borders and never allowing anyone in ever again, which isn't true. I fully support legal immigration, and I fully oppose illegal immigration.

And I fully oppose the illegal importation of drugs into this country. It is, however, still going to happen. I suppose you mean that we should spend more money on protecting our borders against illegal immigrants. We actually have done that...heard a radio spot recently about people finding it harder to cross the border and coyote's becoming more necessary for those who want to get across. They are, however, still getting across.

The real answer is for the economic outlook in Mexico to improve. People would rather stay where they are if possible. I think it has been improving but it is going to take a long time and there is a limited amount we can do about that (we have our own problems...)

[Albinonewt]

Frankly, we have to solve our problem before Mexico can solve its. Since Mexico currently exists only to provide America with cheap labor we need cut that off for Mexico to grow itself. Right now there's simply no need to build an economy there, they send over 5 million of it's citizens every year, they ship money back home, and that's how the Mexican economy works. The money comes straight in and creates a sort of trade surplus. Until that is cut off it will be very difficult for Mexico to make real appreciable progress.

And frankly, if we put any amount of real effort into protecting the border it could be done. Millions of illegals come accross every year. They're not using stealth jets to get in here, they're using 1974 Chevy Cargo Vans. Surely our armed forces and various border patrol authorities can find the equipment somewhere to deal with such a menace...

[RiddalinJunkie08]

my dad started off driving a bulldozer on his dad's construction site. worked hard for awhile and eventually earned a posisition as a partner at miller-valentine construction. he decided that he wasn't happy with his job so he quit. he now is in a posisition at a hospital where he makes less money, no health care, ect. but he is happy with his job. he as well as i believes it isn't all about owning the biggest suv. he could go out and buy an escalade, put big expensive rims on it and a sound system if he wanted. but instead he chose a honda accord, very basic. he has to go out and check out the work sites on a regular basis and he doesn't like the idea of pulling up in a $50,000 car while all the workers are barely scraping by. my dad is a project maneger at middletown regional hospital.
-Mark-

[Albinonewt]

Um, ok. And I think it's important to wait at least 15 minutes after eating before going swimming.

What's it got to do with anything?

[RiddalinJunkie08]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
Um, ok. And I think it's important to wait at least 15 minutes after eating before going swimming.

What's it got to do with anything?

im basicly saying start small. it may not be what you want but its something. work hard and you will get what you want.
-Mark-

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
And where does an individual person get the money to run without a party?

And without a party's (loose) set of values what keeps candidates to bounce back and forth between large donors?

It's a terrible idea and wouldn't work here, period.
You still have to have the backing of a political party in order to run. You still have to get on the repub or dem or whatever ticket. Just when you become president you do away with your republican or Democratic Party id and become president. Instead of being called a repub pres you are a conservative, or the other way around. You are judged on your ideas not the party. The repubs will back a conservative candidate and the dems a liberal.

And what does this matter if it comes from Russia. This system has stabilized the political parties in Russia, has diminished their role in the executive branch and as so far helped with the system of the government. (How many Russian political parties can you name (without looking them up)

I bet if this was any country other then Russia it would be thought of more. I guess you can not end years of brainwashing in 10 years.

[Albinonewt]

And what incentive do I have as the head of the Republican National Committee or the Democratic National Committee to pay for a candidacy if they have to disavow my party as soon as they win?

No College Boy, it wouldn't work here. I don't care where the idea came from and it has nothing to do with brainwashing. Its just that some of us live on earth, and those of us that do recognize how futile that would be here.

[aaron_mag]

CB please don't be such a fool. We could do that in the US where you are not part of your party after you were elected but it would be pure semantics (as I'm sure it is there). Human nature does not change from country to country so please stop being so darn niave!!!!

As for other things Immigrant labor (with money being sent back to Mexico) and NAFTA is the way it is going to be. As jobs are created in Mexico from foriegn investment illegal immigration will become less of a problem. The balancing act is considering how creating jobs in Mexico affects the US domestic labor force. No easy answers there. Of course when it comes to job exportation we had best look to countries like India where alot of tech sector jobs seem to be going.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Albinonewt
And what incentive do I have as the head of the Republican National Committee or the Democratic National Committee to pay for a candidacy if they have to disavow my party as soon as they win?

No College Boy, it wouldn't work here. I don't care where the idea came from and it has nothing to do with brainwashing. Its just that some of us live on earth, and those of us that do recognize how futile that would be here.


Easy, a person who thinks like you is in the Presidency. If funding is off, that would only make things easier for a third party candidate, so it could only be a plus plus. And why would it not work (and yes I am on earth on this issue not in outer space)

Aaron_mag, I am not being a fool. You will see in it written the notion that someone will continue to follow the ideas of that party for it is the ideas of them most of the times (as I said in my first post). The difference is the President can now go against his former people without fear of going against the party (as Putin as done NUMEROUS times).

[Restola]

Or we could return the federal government back to Constitutional minimums and stop needing to worry which special interest group the President will "thank" first :rolleyes:

That wont happen.

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI


MOst of all I want to thank the feds that took my $2000 in property taxs and built a tran station and a State Office of Homeland Defense Command center for Millions of dollars. While houses and parks sat Vacant in the city.


Damn you are a fool!

I am from Maryland! Your property taxes are LOCAL TAXES!! They have nothing to do with the Federal Government! If you want a say on how they are spent, vote in the next city election. Do you even read your property tax bill? It breaks down where your money goes. NOT ONE DAMN CENT OF YOUR PROPERTY TAXES GOES TO THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT!!! It is garbage that you post like this that is 100% false information that drives people nuts. You are wrong! This is a fact! You can not debate it. Read your own tax bill fool!

You have no credibility. What college did you go to Baltimore County Community College? Can you not read nor comprehend simple things like your itemized property tax bill! You property taxes there support your parks, police, schools, municipal government.

PLEASE READ AND STOP MAKING UP FACTS!!!

At least CB argues opinions which can vary. He does not CREATE facts to bolster his own arguments.

You sir are a buffoon!

[aaron_mag]

Well as a real estate appraiser who has to go over property tax bills all the time I have to say 1stdeadeye is correct. Those are local taxes which are itemized. The reason for this is because assessors (or whatever they call them in your area) feel so harassed by property owners that they want to pass as much blame onto the people who decide levy rates as possible.:D

BUT....1de I'm getting a little worried about you. You are really getting worked up! Better relax or you are going to give yourself high blood pressure!!! ;)

[1stdeadeye]

Originally posted by aaron_mag
Well as a real estate appraiser who has to go over property tax bills all the time I have to say 1stdeadeye is correct. Those are local taxes which are itemized. The reason for this is because assessors (or whatever they call them in your area) feel so harassed by property owners that they want to pass as much blame onto the people who decide levy rates as possible.:D

BUT....1de I'm getting a little worried about you. You are really getting worked up! Better relax or you are going to give yourself high blood pressure!!! ;)

I can not tolerate liars and fools. I am not sure which one CGI is, but he is definitely one of the two!

He is arguing and making up blatent lies/falsehoods. He is making racist statements. This fool does not deserve any attention or validation of his incorrect beliefs!

Is America perfect, no. If it was, we would call it heaven! You work for what you get, so CGI stop belly aching and get to work!!!!:mad:

[Star_Base_CGI]

Hey Bud!

Im going to use my acredited intelect to prove what a moron you truly are. Insert deragatory defeamatory personal attack on 1st dead wang here.

Number one. State Taxs goto FEDERAL SPENDING ALL THE TIME.

How can this be. QUite simpley see. Say COngress passes a bill says Maryland must spend x Number of dollars on EMMISIONS TESTING, or any number of hundreds of programs that dont work. (Just use Google.) Or the State does not get federal dollars. Well the State says Oh your KINGSHIP. No we dont have any king. Right away we will do whatever you want and so STATE DOLLARS GO DIRECTLY to whatever federal program LIke Emmisions Testing that dont work or whatever the federal goverment wants.

Am I not anti Government, Anti Army whatever no. Theres alot of little people in government, that Make choices every day that make alot of changes in the world. I AM ANTI AMERICAN BEUROCRATICT BS STUFF WE HAVE TODAY. HATE IT and they can stick it. If It was for GI Joe or GI Public servant (who can say no) we would be in a very bad place. That doesnt mean that whatever public service intrest project doesnt get done. Like Bombing third world countries for oil. Wheres the weapons? (Watch the fleecing of America everynight.) Taxs and Taxs and more taxs. Pay your electric Bill or Phone Bill you got this or that service fee. 28 things on your utilities Bill for utlities projects that are 50 years out dated but thats okay cause Star Base is i buffon or insert other personal attack here. You need a Nuclear ROcket scientist to figure out what the fees on your phone Bills, Utilites or Property Taxs really go. You might as well be buying a $500 toilet seat.

Until we have a black out or something and the government says they dont know what it is because everything so old and your paying every month for old Busted Utilities. Your paying so much in utlities that all your paying for is the old Busted Utilites that if you had new Utilies to live in the Year 2000 it would be like paying $10 a month for your phone Bill or electricity liked we did in the 50s and 60s.

Get a job get a job. Smart Answer. Read the paper. Millions od people are out of work. Why dont you give me a job? I wouldnt want to work with the likes of you anyway. Id rather be hungry. Im happy to be out of work but really there arent any decent jobs out there and it the government could they would fly the mexicans or other illegals back in tommorow to run the airports and everything else. They would and they did! Wackenhut! God by Wackenhut.

Racist attack. Please that is low even for you.

Ive had two jobs as the token white person I was not welcome with open arms. Some people I got along fine with. Some I didnt. I dont think its fun for anyone being the token whatever person at a company is about one of the most miserable thingsin the universe because everyones there is culutaly different. Theres nothing to talk about about and people hate you just because your white. They feel like your the blue eyed devil trying to take over the universe. I dont think "THEY" know that Irish people that came over during the potatoe Famine knew that they were not slave owners.

Im not lazy Ive worked harder jobs than you ever would. You couldnt even pick your pants off the floor. Let alone Bury your relatives.

Alot of you take this as a personal attack on America. Please Im sorry. Wake up but this country has real issues such as this country has not seen since the great depression. The war in Drugs has turned into a joke like Prohabition. People just keep shipping it in. People just turn their backs and we have more syndicated crime. The police dont report it so its not addressed but as long as people get paid it goes on. We got too many problems to list and Im sorry that some of the young people here wont see what a great country we were Just 20 or so years ago.

We dont even have real sugar in our cokes anymore. There not even fun to drink. LOL.

(This Rant was brought to you by Star Base CGI American Civil Liberties wake up call. /me blows trumpet. Doo doo dee doo!)

[aaron_mag]

Can't predict the future of the economy. Don't think it will be as dire as you predict (considering that back in the late 80s everyone was predicting that Japan would rule the world economically it will be something none of us figured).

I can predict that this thread will soon be closed. People getting a little excited.

[Star_Base_CGI]

If we got a really really good president in 2004 and the economy ramped up...

Id be dancing the Irish Jig.

The True fact is we dont know. Obviously its a matter of faith but sometimes it seems like these things are more devised than cyclic.

I had expected this thread to close already.

Which is why I thanked EVERYONE for posting many times.

Even if you dont agree. Lets agree to disagree.

Thanks for your opinions.

[gibby]

WOW! Star Base...uh...WOW!! My mouth was literally wide open cause I couldn't believe what you just wrote to 1st deadeye. First of all, what was your point? Besides making your own personal attack to him, you made yourself look really bad. Your comments....um....doesn't make any sense. Flawed logic and your temper...sheesh! No wonder you're out of work...I'm sure no one would want to work with you to begin with.

I'm sure the ones that you got along with shared the same attitude as you cause it seems like you try to rip up on anyone who disagrees with you. First off, you can't say you've worked harder than deadeye because you don't even know him, nor do you know what he's been through.

I'm sure he's adamant with his opinions of you because he's a person who's been through a tough time and managed to pull through despite the hard effort he had to go through. It's a sign of character. I respect that. I'm sorry, but I can't say the same for you.

In all your comments or posts, you've demonstrated a very closed minded attitude. You act like you own this thread just cause you started it. You embrace those who share the same opinions and try to rip up those who don't. Let me tell you, you have nothing on them because they were strong enough to overcome their problems in life. It doesn't look like I can say the same for you. If someone needs a wake up call, you better set one up for yourself. Make sure you don't snooze cause it won't get any better.

Even up till now, you still refuse to comment to what I have to say to you, or about you. But that's fine with me. Sometimes I laugh when I read what you have to say cause it's out there bud. The problem isn't with America or the society...it's with you.

Wake up buddy, your situation isn't going to get any better. You either snap out of it or one day, you'll regret not putting any effort into it.

[Star_Base_CGI]

This thread is all pretty much resorting to personal attacks now and i think it will be closed. Theres really no way I can retort to personal attacks except with more personal attacks.

If you think America is great and wonderful than it probably is if your stinking wealthy.

For the rest of us its a struggle which may or may not build character.


Theres a really good website at http://abovetopsecret.com if you want to see whats going on in the world. With some good articles like the feds trying to find a way to trakc homeless people.

I added a little note about they should outlaw homeless people or should they just outlaw being homeless.

Its a definitley thin line.

Should we treat the problem or the symptoms?

[wimag]

all i ask is that someone please post pics of starbase after the shatnerball game.
I have a bad feeling he is gonna get lit up something fierce.

[gibby]

LOLOL!! Hrm...guess he's an admin now? It's only personal because it's difficult to discuss anything with you whether you agree or disagree.

Personal attacks? Maybe...however, my last post was hardly as bad as some of the things you've said before. If you want to limit yourself to what you can do or can't do based off of what you read off of websites, or things you see on TV, or hear on the radio, then you are truly beyond help.

Can we say we have a new Weltman?

[Crazy]

My solution: Move to canada... like, way north.. hobos and homeless can't live as popsicles.

[Restola]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
Im going to use my acredited intelect...
Thats where I stopped reading.

[Miscue]

Closed.