The "unpractical" Emag

[rdb123]

http://pbnation.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=291493



Taken from PBN post
I have a little gripe with idea of the best gun being purely personal preference....

...For example, an Emag, instead of designing a new valve of some sort to use electricity to it's fullest advantage. They just took a huge solenoid, stuck it in a grip, with an even bigger battery to back it up. I hope you all can realize how unpractical this is, when guns like Impulse's and Matrix's last for thousands of shots on 1 9v battery. Just to clarify, my gripe is not that I dislike changing batteries, it is that I frown upon a design that is so inefficient in it's use of resources.


"I agree with you opn the Emag/Xmag horrible guns."

[Steelrat]

Actually, I think AGD missed a tremendous opportunity with this, also.

My Viking is made up mostly of air chambers, rams, etc etc. The mags take this whole setup and compress it into the tiny retrovalve. Imagine what a light gun AGD could make if they developed a mechanism to fire the valve without using a huge solenoid. I think the mechanical backup thing is neat, but ultimately its not a huge selling point. The whole gun would be valve, grip, and barrel. That would easily be the lightest and smallest marker out there.

Not that I don't like Emags, I just think that, instead of taking a conservative path, maybe a more unconventional design could have been created. Then again, maybe it was tried, and failed. I'm not exactly on the need-to-know list.

[Kevmaster]

at PRESENT, to activate the sear release and the on-off pin, you NEED that big of a solenoid to do the job. And to avoid killing the bolt with a 10ms dwell, you need a 30ms dwell time. 30ms is a LONG time. It requires 3x more power than the 10ms dwell...so a 3x bigger battery is needed to feed the baby to get the same number of shots. Fine, if you dont like the emag, get the centerflag hyper frame. its smaller and more compact (although uses the 10ms dwell).

and hell, even with that big honkin battery, we're STILL lighter than teh fly angels

[Steelrat]

Why couldnt you have a lighter on/off pin like the ULT, and a solenoid that activites it directly, instead of using the sear to trip the on/off?

[Skoad]

yea you can get "thousands" of shots off a 9volt, but can you do 20,000?

also i believe the ULT on/off will slow down the guns overall rate of fire.

[FalconGuy016]

Its true, but it works good :)
I think it would be cool if AGD came out with a totaly new gun, not just a mag based on the same valve, but something truely electronic. But is there really that much of an advantage? I dont know, depends how well AGD designs it

[Steelrat]

Well, the downside to the 20,000 is, when its gone, its gone. Back to the ol' charger. When my 9 volt croaks, its out with the old, in with the new. I respect the solid and redundant engineering in the E, I just think maybe another course may have made the most of the small valve AGD makes.

[Steelrat]

Advantage? Like I said, it takes my whole damn Viking to do what AGD does with that one, small valve. Think of the possibilities. Imagine a small solenoid tripping the on/off. Now image your gun consisting of a ULE body with integrated aluminum rail, a ULE grip frame, a 9 volt, and your barrel. There would be nothing else like it out there.

[IcantBelieveit]

better yet. and electronic ON/OFF, get rid of the solenoid and sear, and use the hall sensor to trip the electronic on/off which is wired to the board think of ....although the cost of producing an electrical component that small would be great...just an idea though

[Steelrat]

Yeah, the only reason I thought of the solenoid tripping the on/off is because its cheap. They can still keep the current valve setup. The gun would be like a barrel stuck on top of a grip. Imagine making the grip frame out of carbon fiber? Insane!

[dcmander]

LOL, too light and it will have too much kick.

[rpm07]

I am sorry but people ***** about the battery. You get 20,000 shots I dont know about you but I have never shot that much in 1 day. The battery makes a nice foregrip I think. And guess what it is not that hard to charge the battery. So to me if you can not handle taking a battery off with 1 screw and sticking a charger in it then you should not own a emag.

[Skoad]

battery gives a nice balance as well.

[JT2002]

like someone else said, imagine, i doubt theres one this small, and it would prob cost big $$$$$ to make it, but imagine a noid that replaced the whole on/off assembly. the possiblitites would be insane. you could then run the gun off of a 9v and stick the 9v in the grip frame, and create emag asa or whatever for grips and such

[yagrmiestr]

The sear does more than just close the on/off. If you remove the sear and use a solenoid to operate the on/off you still need to latch and release the bolt somehow. I wonder if some sort of latching solenoid could be used to pull the sear so as it wouldn't draw current the whole 30ms the sear is down. I bet Tom has a few ideas he's exploring.

[Steelrat]

Eh, its all good. I felt skirt's Xmag, and it was pretty damn light without any mods. I was just daydreaming...

[sps16]

can somebody explain to me why the emag uses such a big battery? what is it 18.6 or something. If they could re-evulate the current technology with batterys and stick something smaller and lighter in there, it would be money.

[Steelrat]

Its huge because the solenoid is huge. Apparently the solenoid is huge becasue it needs to trip the sear and hold it open for 30 ms. I think they use a Nickel metal hydride battery, which is about as good as it gets battery wise. I think theres a polymer lithium ion, but it just sounds expensive.

[sps16]

well what about littium ion batterys and such, like the stuff on laptops, cameras etc. Those are so light now, and they have to be powerful enough to power an emag if they can power a laptop

[Steelrat]

I don't know how much better they are than the NiMH.

[sniper1rfa]

in this application, they arent.

Li-Ion are not capable of putting out as much current as NiMH. Also, they are EXTREMELY expensive. As in, probably $200 for one to power your emag. They arent nearly as durable, breaking down in much fewer charge cycles. Hell, the annode starts breaking down as soon as the battery is made, wether its being used or not.

The only reason they are used in laptops and cell phones is size. They put out twice the voltage, and roughly the same density, so they can be nearly half the size.

In paintball, this is a void point...



However, i do agree. Although i would give my arm for an x-mag, i am curious as to why the valve was not redesigned to interface with the electronics a little more smoothly.

[lamby]

First off let me say that there is very little about the power system for the emag that I do not like. The battery is a great grip, It is easy to remove to charge, balances the gun nicely, and has alot of current (many shots). The yellow pin is lame though.

The solenoid is large (making the frame too big for decent water tight grips) but needs to be based on not the dwell timing, rather the amount of force that is required to trip the sear. A small solenoid will not trip the sear with all that associated with it without a HUGH current draw and would melt a small solenoid. The reason why a hyperframe can do it, is that there is no hugh sear and manual mode to muckup the works. leverage is a very powerful tool in this debate, and it is not used in the emag to its fullest extent.

My only problem with the emag is manual mode I would love to see that removed intirely, as it is useless to me. And causes more problems than it is worth. A small sear that rocks with more leverage on the on/off pin and no trigger rod would be nice.. but I can't complain. If Tom wants to make a tank, that is his right. I just want one that won't get dq'ed in a tourney and maybe some user adjustable software.

[GT]

Personally

I love my mech mag I just finished building however, I am not making any plans to buy an AGD electro. Its just not effienct enough for me. I was shooting deroach's X, dont get me wrong its an awsome gun but for that kind of coin I need more shots per fil. I am also not a big fan of the hal effect trigger.

It would be a totaly differnt gun with an optical trigger, small selnoid for bolt control and a small selnoid as the on/off.

;)

[JT2002]

well you know, i really do like my emag, but the thing reall is heavy, anyone wanna get a great deal on an emag with lvl x? lmk:D (seriously)

[thecavemankevin]

keep in mind that What AGD's valve does what it does in a totally different way than your vicking....or any other gun for that matter.

The reason other guns can do it with a simple 9v is that it takes very little power to run the computer controled solenoid. Where as it does take a great deal of power to trip a mag's cycle. Afterall, think about how much strength-work it takes to mechanically trip a mag.

I think it would be a great idea if AGD could figure out a way to trip it with greater ease and thus a less powerfull battery. But with its current design...i don't see it happening. Would likely need an new design all together.

[WARPED1]

The Emag is a great gun, but the battery configuration HAS to go............. Any other electro can run off a 9v or one of those 9.6v rechargeables. Emag must come into the 21st century:p .........

[no_doz]

i thought u were anti agd warped1

[WARPED1]

Not against its products, but the companies attitude, and the cult atmospere here.
Not to mention that "chuff chuff" Untermag bullshiznit.

[Angry Man]

Considering the emag is just a normal mag with an electro-frame it is a little expensive and impractically designed, but no more so than an e-cocker. Some people get less than a case of their e-blade before replacing the battery. Sure, it runs off a nine-volt, but still.....

Anyhow, hopefully the ule trigger will result in an emag that can run off a 9v battery. Sear trippers are never gonna have the battery efficiency of electros that work with a standard 4 way solenoid, which is why I like my electros pure and spool valvey or stacked tube solenoid designy.

[Automaggin2]

Well, lets see.



The matrix and the impulse are far different from each other. How the hell are you gonna say they are similar? What, they are similar that they shoot paintballs? Get your facts straight. The Impulse is more like a Bushmaster/Timmy then anything (basically a solenoid driven spyder). The Matrix is desgned like...like....hmmmm nothing. Its an orginal design, the 2003 shocker operates somewhat like it.

The impulse is a direct copy of a Bushmaster!


Why would they want to redesign the mag? It is one of the most consistent and reliable valves in the industry, Heym, ever look at a raptor reg on a air america tank? Maybe its designed somewhat like the mag valve? HMMMM........


Your not to smart are you. Redesigning the mag will take away its originality. Why change it if it doesnt have to be changed? Just like a cocker!


It was improved on, not changed. Like lets see, the RT valve, now they have the aluminum RT valve. Now they have the ULT system. And level 10. It keeps getting improved on, not redesigned.

[Blazingace]

All I can say is that the X-mag is lighter than a Fly IR3 and faster to boot. If you think it is too heavy or Impractical. Quit your *****in' and grow some bigger arms ya sissys.

[JT2002]

Originally posted by Blazingace
All I can say is that the X-mag is lighter than a Fly IR3 and faster to boot. If you think it is too heavy or Impractical. Quit your *****in' and grow some bigger arms ya sissys.

and that would be why they call it an "X-mag" rather than an Emag. ;) :rolleyes: :D

[Richter]

I thought the matrix design was base on nova/super nova. Or we could also call them the Pringle can line of guns ;)

[Meph]

Originally posted by Skoad
yea you can get "thousands" of shots off a 9volt, but can you do 20,000?



Hmmmmmm, about double it! Race Grip for autocockers. 30K shots I've seen, and so far heard of some getting 40K per 9V. Very very efficient battery life. Unlike it's dumber brother Eblade, maybe 5K shots a 9V.

Happy?

[Meph]

Personally I say screw that magnet noid and just get a small pneumatic ram in the grip frame to take its place. Slap on an LPR and electronic 4-way noid in place of the battery for the foregrip (but 9V can still be there), have the ram and board in the grip. This way the on/off pin can still be used, since some guys think that it can't be a mag without this.

I agree with previous statement already made. Screw the mech/hyb/e modes. Just make it all E-mode.

And with a 4-way noid, you can have it in the OFF position when resting. Pull the trigger, then it quickly cycles. This way, you won't need to worry about having a mechanical mode for chornographing.

[S.S Bandit1]

Don't forget that just about every part on ANY mag is interchangable. How many other marker linups can do that (besides cockers)? Changing the design of the e-mag would ruin that.

Lamby, if you are sick and tired of manual mode, why don't you just take out the manual trigger linkage?

I THINK A FEW PEOPLE HERE NEED A TISSUE TO SOAK UP ALL THE TEARS SHED FOR THE WEIGHT OF THE EMAG!!!

When was the last time you heard someone say, or you said yourself, "O, sorry guys, I'm gonna sit this one out, my arms are too tired from holding this gun." If that is the case, go play chess or something less physical.

P.S.-Don't worry Tom, I still love you and all your contributions to the paintball industry.:D

[Meph]

Of course not. They say "**** this, I'm selling this E-mag"


Also, bandit. You, wait. Yeah I think. Uh huh. There's something a little brown on that nose of yours! ;) Might need to take a look at that.

edit
When I see improvements or ideas of what can be done to Tippmann markers. And I talk to the guys at Tippmann about what I think is bad, or what I think can be improved. Does that instantly mean I don't appreciate what they have done for the entire industry and sport of paintball? No, it just means I have a couple ideas. That's all.

Don't confuse people inputting ideas and suggestions with bashing, insulting, and unappreciative behaviour. There's a big difference and you're blurring them together.

[yagrmiestr]

Hey wait a second.... I love my emag and wouldn't give it up for anything else, but that doesn't mean I think it is perfect. Don't mistake coming up with ideas to improve upon it for whining about it. ;)

[lamby]

About the linkage.....

s.s bandit... I dont want to beat a dead horse. Been there, did that, and almost got 3 emags disqualified. Read some of my last posts if you want details

manual mode......

I think meph is right. AGD should look into a purely electronic marker and drop this archic (sp) manual crap. Manual is useless if you got a good e gun (angels and timmies are a testiment to this)

weight.......

the EMAG is NOT heavy unless you have to carry a warped one still full of paint over your head going to the dead box. therefore, dont get sent to the dead box and you wont have a problem :)

interchangeability with older markers.....

The compatibility issue between different mags is a bad idea, just like backwards compatibility in computers caused so many problems. If you can make something better like M$ did with 2000 that is not compatible with old crap, make it and let the market decide if they want backwards compatibility, or quality. I am sure 80 out of 100 will want the new stuff even if that means you cant run your old software. how many you still use real dos? Did you even realize that 2000/XP does not even support real world dos anymore?
(maybe a bad comparison, but I think it fits)

What is the expected life expectancy of a marker? how long should it be supported with parts? how much stock is AGD willing hold for old equipment? This will all weigh into the equation for a new marker line. On top of the standard cost/projected gain assesment. Would you be upset if your marker could not get factory parts after say 5 years? I would not but that is me. If the marker is good enough the free enterprise system will take over and someone else will make parts. If the marker is crap it should not be an issue anyway, buy a new one.

[hostage]

on the subject of "unpractical" why don't other markers build regs into their valves?

I duno about the pneumatic noid, mb they could manufactor a new on/off valve that could take advantage of something like that, but I still like the knowledge that if something goes wrong I can always just turn it to mech mode. In addition if they went with small noid, then they would have to add a LP reg that would add some weight and totally redisgn the marker? MB it would suit people best if the recharged or made sure they had working batteries b4 they played.
-Doron

[hitech]

The reason the solenoid is so large in an emag is for reliability. As a solenoid heats up it looses power. The emag solenoid still has more power than it needs even at the bottom of it's power curve. The larger solenoid also requires a larger battery. Here again the battery is as large as it is for reliability. It could be smaller but it wouldn't be as reliable. The 'mag is all about reliability.

[sneakyhacker420]

Originally posted by Steeratt
Why couldnt you have a lighter on/off pin like the ULT, and a solenoid that activites it directly, instead of using the sear to trip the on/off?


um... but then what relases the bolt... idiot :rolleyes:

[Dayspring]

Doing all the things you talk about would require a TOTAL redesign of how a Mag works. And it then ceases to be a Mag.

Lamby- You're the ONLY person who has problems w/ your manual mode. Put your foot down to the judge and tell him that there are no tournament rules that say you have to chrono your gun in manual. Start a string of balls and sweep it over the chrono, and the thing will read the correct speed. Tom himself said this at the tech class. Get over it... Run a classic valve if you want to totally eliminate bouce or put a ULT in. You'll be all set. :rolleyes:

Just remember- the gun was designed the way it is for very specific REASONS.

Large noid- dependable and able to actuate the gun correctly for the amount of time needed.
Battery- ability to power the 'noid.

There's a reason why some of the e-frames for mags don't work correctly.

[Angry Man]

Meph, that's a good idea about the ram....I had the same idea too, actually. Still, I think that the space saved by a smaller battery would be more than taken up by the larger size of a ram and the size of a 4 way solenoid (they're not exactly small)...add a bunch of pneumatics hoses and the design of the emag just got a lot more confusing. While that would definitely improve battery life (and I can definitely see someone building a home grown e-mag like that), I think it would just make the e-mag even more confusing and bulkier...not worth a little battery life savings.


As for "lighter than a fly angel," gz timmies are 2.5 pounds as are featherlight vikings, new shockers are like 2.2 pounds or something, and the angel 4 is under 2.5 pounds too, i think....it's been a while since fly angels were the lightest of light guns.

[Meph]

It's not about space saved too much. Because the ram isn't that long, you won't need a cocker ram. It won't travel even close to that far! A tiny lil clippard ram would work beautifully.

And overall it's not about space. It's about MONEY!!! A not-new, just modified overall design, a way to make this thing drop down in cost. By dropping this mechanical/hyper/e-mode stuff, a cheaper way to make the marker fire (4-way and ram). I'd hope that Tom could at least drop the cost 100 bucks, probably even more. I mean you can house the hoses through the frame and body rail. There's PLEANTY of meat! So it'd be all internal and clean. Not messy.

And the entire front housing design can stay the same. Instead of just battery, throw in the 4-way noid, the chip, and a 9-volt housing all in one. Leave the ram alone for the grip frame. Keep the whole design clean. So it won't be bulkier, it won't be a hassle. It'll be actually smaller possibly.

Plus best of all, with a pneumatic ram (cocker style, just not as long) and the ULT.... you can have this thing cycle no problem. There would be no need to even worry about the reactivity since it'd all operate off of the LPR and noid! And as long as the firing sequence is in the off position to start. Then trigger pull makes it cycle again to the pin being off. You would have this cycle not only fast, but also able to cycle this with its recharge as something to never worry about again!

This design here has major potential. And honestly I hope that Tom would use this. I won't even ask for credit, I know it's been thought up before. It had to have somewhere, I can't be the first guy to think of this.

[adam shannon]

Originally posted by FalconGuy016
Its true, but it works good :)
I think it would be cool if AGD came out with a totaly new gun, not just a mag based on the same valve, but something truely electronic.

yeah, great...as long as i can sign up for the pre-order list right freakin now!

[lamby]

Dayspring,

No flaming here, just think that an electronic only marker would be better for ME, maybe it is not for you. Don't matter much because I decided on what I am going to do. I am "over it" I am now $900 closer to my warped sportz speed demon
(I want a ROC ir3.. that has to be the sweetest looking maker of all time but $1600 is too much right now!!) All I need is another 300 bones and I will have a new primary marker. I might sell the emag and pick up an rtpro with a hyperframe as my backup. I am not a hater, I just need something other than stress right now.

I have said a MILLION times already, if you dont have the problems I did, the EMAG rocks. If you have, It sucks A$$ and is not worth it. I love the duribility of the mag, but I am willing to give that up for technical superiority.

Peace

[Albinonewt]

I'll tell you what, I love my E-Mag. It's never steered me wrong and I feel confident going on the field that I'm not going to be outshot by a better marker. I may get outplayed by a better player, but my marker can hold it's own against anything else out there. And at the end of the day, that's all I ask.

[Angry Man]

Meph, I had a nice response written to your idea until my computer crashed because it's a mac and a piece of junk. Anyhow, in summary....

I don't think your design would be cost effective and space saving for the following reasons: You'd also need an lpr (which you forgot to mention) which would take up a good deal of space (especially if you wanted it to recharge at a decent rate to avoid shootdown). Beyond this, an e-mag solenoid is 40 bucks from this site, whereas 4-way solenoids are 60+ dollars and that's on top of the cost of a ram and LPR.

Perhaps a bko-style 2-way solenoid coupled with a ram that's returned by the force of the e-mag's valve would be a better option. Simpler and cheaper.

Anyhow, impulse/bushmaster/angel/intimidator style and matrix/new shocker style electros will always seem like a better design to me because they are simpler and designed around the fact that they are electro-pneumatically controlled.

[Meph]

Yeah, a spring-returnable ram is always possible. I'm just not sure if one that small is possible. Or if it is, if the entire ram assembly would have to be custom-made instead of bought from a pre-made fashion. Not like it'd be hard to make!

And I did mention LPR. But in the previous post a few replies up "Slap on an LPR and electronic 4-way noid in place of the battery for..." I did forget to mention it in the longer post, though.

But you are right, a spring-return ram and 2-way noid would be a better, cheaper (maybe), and more air efficient design.

The entire point would be to make the production cost drop. If this cost just as much, then honestly I'd say scrap it! Just tryin to think of a way to make an E-mag more affordable without sacrificing quality or ease of use.

[Steelrat]

Sneakyhacker420 recieves this post's JERK award for calling me an "idiot" for posting my thoughts on possible improvements. Thanks for being insulting in a thread that had, until then, been dedicated to civil discussion of emag changes. So what if I forgot about the bolt release? Is it worth calling me an idiot?

[JT2002]

well you know, the emag valve is much cheaper because it lets the emag valve do all of the return work, the noid pulls the trigger rod to shoot gun, and lets emag valve do the rest. meanwhile all other noids like that in timmys and such need to HOLD the noid open one position, and closed in another

[Star_Base_CGI]

The hybred design is awesome and will if not already lead to innovations in other fields.

Its reliable. Other guns get wet or something your stuck with a useless hunk of metal.

you guys are paintball hoes.

[Meph]

PB hos? No, I'm just trying to think of a way to make a cheaper Emag!

[Star_Base_CGI]

AGD doesnt care about making cheap guns. If they wanted to make them cheap theyed have them milled in CHina.

People all do things their own way. I like to do things as moral as possible and take my time...

AGD seems to like to make them in the US. Make the product innovative, reliable and long lasting. Making the products long lasting means they will be around long after we are all gone.

They take whatever markup they have and use that for promotions. People have money buy the product. Its the BMW, RX7, Humvee, whatever you want to label it of paintball.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Steeratt
Well, the downside to the 20,000 is, when its gone, its gone. Back to the ol' charger. When my 9 volt croaks, its out with the old, in with the new.

But what happens when your lil' 9 volt goes kaputt in the middle of a game and you don't have another on you? ;) With the E-Mag, if your battery dies, just flip it to mechanical mode. So basically the E-mag is 2 guns molded into 1. Also, you can go roughly a month without having to recharge the E-Mag battery, and that's on top of constant play.

E-Mag impractical? Nope.

[Ov3rmind]

I can't think of a time when someone's gun went down during a game because their battery died. The mechanical override gives the user a sense of extra reliability, but the fact of the matter is your electronics are most likely not just going to mess up on you.

[Smoke]

Originally posted by Ov3rmind
I can't think of a time when someone's gun went down during a game because their battery died.


You have no clue how many times I've seen that. @_@

Of course, I'm head ref at a field, so I see crazy stuff all the time.

[kutter]

I gotta go with automagfreek here, my buddies IR3 died just as we were walking on the field to play one day, he had to sit out several games while he got his back up setup.

Had this happened in a tourny, his team would have been playing without him. Now I admit that it does not happen often, but Mr. Murphy always has it happen at the worse times :eek:

[Albinonewt]

At IAO someone in the 7 man had their gun's electros go down on them. I think the day of play was Sunday and I can't for the life of me remember the team (I was still VERY hung over).

But, they did a sweet move. He shielded one of his buddies whenever he did a bunker ran this gun ran right beside him on the inside. It was a slick move.

[Steelrat]

The trick is never let your 9 volt run down to that point where it might go belly-up in the middle of a game.

And its not like the emag is immune from breakdowns. The majority of marker failures I see on the field are mechanical in nature, not electronic. Electronics tend to be one of the most stable and reliable parts of the marker, unless you get water in it or something.

[Evil Bob]

I've had my emag battery die on me... in game. Switched to manual, continued playing.

It only has to happen to you once to appreciate the manual mode. Nothing more embarrassing then walking off the field with a dead marker knowing full well that you could have made a difference HAD you been able to shoot.

Both my Angel LED's failed on the field...
Both my Angel LCD's failed on the field...
My Emag failed on the fild... until I switched to manual.

When my Angels died an untimely death, it usually involved a trip back to the factory. The LED's were really prone to static discharge damage and both were sent in several times. I also had a few battery failures with them, NiCads have serious memory problems. The LCD's I owned, one had the similar static problem and was repeatedly in the shop, the other was fairly reliable most of the time. When they failed on the field, I would switch to capt mode or run decoy on a bunker run, get the guy to shoot at me instead of my teammate who could still shoot. With my Emag, I was down for the mere 10 seconds it took me to realize my battery was toast and switch over to manual, I was still able to shoot, that's something that you cannot do with any other electro.

How many people have had their cell phone batteries die on them when they appeared to be fully charged? Pagers? Laptops? BoomBoxes? That's life with batteries, they will fail eventually, it's just a matter of time.

Manual mode is like an insurance policy, 99% of the users wont ever need it, but that 1% is sure damn happy it's an option when the inevitable happens and they're out of power.

-Evil Bob

[JT2002]

ditto ^^^^^

[Meph]

Originally posted by Star_Base_CGI
AGD doesnt care about making cheap guns. If they wanted to make them cheap theyed have them milled in CHina.


Way to misunderstand!


Not cheap quality. Cheaper price.