Has BPS gotten out of hand?

[hitech]

The aftermath of the scenario game I played on Sunday made me think about this. I have about 30 welts from four 30 minute sessions. This is not necessarily all from high bps rates. It was a “reincarnation” game. As we were literally fighting up step hills all day the strategy was to use brut force (rush ‘em) and a short “reincarnation” path to overcome the low side disadvantage. I lead by example from in front, and took some up close and personal shots (they never seem to shot me until I’m behind them ;) ). However, I got the most welts at one time from my own team. I captured a tank and was using it as cover to shoot the opposing team. When my team noticed me they lit me up. No one bothered to even see which way I was shooting. I was standing at a tank (the other side had all the tanks) and they just lit me up. Don’t think I’m whining, I didn’t get upset at being overshot. I was only pissed at loosing the tank and the advantage. But thinking about it later they really overshot me. I turned to look at them with my marker pointed at the ground and yelled at them to stop. They didn’t stop until the tank driver (the field owner) got out and yelled at them to stop.

I was also guilty of overshooting. I don’t shoot all that fast, but it’s not hard to shoot an emag fast. I dumped lots of paint into the guys following the tanks. The tanks were reeking havoc if allowed to advance. I found an up front position that allowed me good shots on the tanks without them knowing where I was. And I hammered them without thinking about it. After a couple of tries, the tank driver (the field owner) was having a hard time getting them to try it again. I’m sure they were tired of getting hit multiple times each time they tried.

Why is it that years ago getting hit five or ten times in a rec game was considered overshooting, and today is just paintball?

[Micromag man!]

no it isnt

[painball]

yes. yes it is. What happened to that agreement to cap BPS at 13? At tourneys I'm often seeing horrible overshooting. 12 shots from a few feet away :( :rolleyes:

[RRfireblade]

Over shooters are butt holes and should have no connection to fair and decent players regardless of ROF.Developing a high ROF is a skill like any other and I for one have no problem NOT shooting when I'm aware I've marked someone no matter how fast I may have been shooting before that.

Jay.

[covadsucks]

Originally posted by hitech
I was also guilty of overshooting.

I don’t shoot all that fast, but it’s not hard to shoot an emag fast.

That's it Hitech, just blame the Emag...lol:p :D

Did you at least have fun shooting people all day long?

[Wooosh87]

Are you complaining about people getting out of hand, or the capability of guns getting out of hand?
People have always, and will always overshoot. How can you stop it? It's a matter of people taking it one step too far. In reality, a gun capped at 13 BPS and a gun without a limit will still be able to allow the shooter to throw out those extra balls that no one likes to be on the recieving end of. The last time I played I got tore up by some jerk. He came to do me in and got pelted half way. He kept going and put three in my side. The ref's pulled him and let me stay. He headed for the deadbox only to turn around and put another 8-12 balls up my back. He gave me some nice bloody welts that have left beautiful scars for me to enjoy. Yes, I was very heated at the guy, almost to the point of doing something I would later regret. I calmed down, and told the guy to be a little less stupid next time. Was I angry at the GUN he was shooting? No, it was the lack of self control from the jerk behind the trigger. Untill everyone that plays paintball learns to have self control, bonus balls will be something you will have to live with. You don't have to like it, but you have to contend with it.

On a same yet different note...

Rate of Fire (ROF) has simply become the standard for which people see and rate the quality of a new product. It's sort of like the Horsepower and Torque ratings on a car or truck. Sure, more is better, but at what point is that extra little bit of power going to influence your overall impression? To some people, including myself, seeing a gun capable of an insane ROF right out of the box, with no fooling arund, simply looks good. Is it better than the others? Yes and no. I bought my Mag 12 years ago for the simple fact that I saw on the video tape that comes with every mag, a guy shooting 12+ balls a second on a stock gun. Sold me right then and there. Could I match or even better what I was viewing? No way at all, but I wanted a gun that made ME the limiting factor of performance. I wanted a machine gun capable of mowing down the competition, and that's why I bought what I did. Today is no different than 12 years ago, guns can cycle far faster than a human can pull the trigger or a paintball can be loaded in to it. Even with the advent of the Halo, Warp Feed, Evo II and Q Drive, guns will simply be mechanically more advanced that the piece of plastic sitting on top of it, and will be able to do more than the person that owns it is capable of. Kind of like that 150 MPH spedometer in my truck. I'll never go that fast, but my dashboard says I can...

[acetum]

Hmmmm how to address this... I think there are 2 underlining problems that no one is addressing.

The first being that ROF is acheived by a players fingers on a TRUE semi auto-marker. When I go to bunker someone, it is to take that player off the field for a tactical advantage. I have trained and trained and trained myself to put only 3 balls on that player. 3 that's it no more no less. I expect not to live!!!! I'll say that out of the 10 times I go to do someone they get done. With only three shots.. ROF is disipline....

Two, overshooting is usually caused by an illegal marker. One time at paintball camp (JK) some guy came to bunker me, we both got taken, the diffrence was that I shot him five times because I actually had 5 balls in the air, and he shot me like 13-14 (I counted the welts). He wasn't firing anymore, his stupid marker was double to triple firing. It was an illegal marker. I.E. you pull his trigger one time and 2-3 shots go off. You pull my trigger one time (regardless of how softly you pull and only one shot comes out.

All field owners or BIG EVENT SPONSORS have to do is REGULATE and check players markers randomly and that malarky will stop.

That's all I got to say about that...

mex
http://team-agp.com

[elpimpo]

Originally posted by RRfireblade
Over shooters are butt holes and should have no connection to fair and decent players regardless of ROF.Developing a high ROF is a skill like any other and I for one have no problem NOT shooting when I'm aware I've marked someone no matter how fast I may have been shooting before that.

Jay.

i overshoot. we'll just say ive never had a dead man pulled on me and it takes a lot longer to whipe 10 hits then it does 1

[GoatBoy]

It's tough to control human behavior by using some sort of technology limit.

If you are hit and no longer wish to get pelted, call yourself out. Even if it's friendly fire. Gun in the air, hands up, yell 'out' or 'hit'. Then get the heck out of the way. I see no mention of this in your story... I would think this information would be relevant.

There should be plenty of refs on the field so this sort of thing doesn't go unnoticed. I see this as a large culprit when things like this happen. Compounding the problem may be tougher economic times, and maybe fields may cut back on their reffing staff.

Also, you mentioned that your TEAM overshot you. By team, I'm going to assume like 5 players or so. If all 5 players only dump, say, 5 balls at you, that's already 25 balls, and it only takes 1 to take you out. That's like 24 bonus balls.

I wouldn't blame the markers or ROF or anything on this sort of thing.

As paintball becomes more popular, it will inevitably draw more people from the incredibly large pool of idiots which our society seems to turn out at an alarming rate.


It wasn't proper back then to overshoot someone, and it still isn't proper now. We just have more bungholes out on the field now.




And I don't even want to get into the scenario nuttiness with these tanks.

[hitech]

I don’t have much time, but I will address more later (didn’t want anyone to think I was ignoring them ;) ). Real quick.


If you are hit and no longer wish to get pelted…

I must not have made my point. You are correct. They just kept shooting until I signaled I was out. They did not care about anything else. I wasn’t surprised and half expected it. I didn’t get upset about how many times I was hit, only that my own team shot me. I think part of the problem is that it happened in a rec ball game. I was OBVIOUSLY not a threat. However, since I didn’t signal I was out, they kept shooting. THAT shouldn’t happen in a rec ball game. The other problem was that I also did not find it a problem. I EXPECTED it. It has become part of the game. I think that is a problem.

Covad – Yeah, I had lots of fun. Humping those hills is no fun, but once I found my two “spots” I was an eliminating machine! ;) And yeah, it’s all the emags fault! ;)

Keep the opinions coming! :D

[Evil Bob]

There are quite a few factors that all add up to be the cause of this:

1) Technology evolution: Everything is getting faster... markers, hoppers, triggers, et all have evolved so much in the past 5 years alone that it is insanely easy to achieve high rates of fire even on a semi auto marker. We're not even talking about all the burst, turbo, or full auto modes here, I'm talking straight semi auto, 1 ball per pull.

2) Player perception that faster = better: Everyone wants to hit the FPS cap on their marker, its more for bragging rights then it is for practical application on the field. A sustained rate of 5 bps will keep someone's head down just as well as 18 bps, the difference is when you're gunning down a runner, you stand a higher chance of hitting them at 18bps then you do with 5 bps, that's just the laws of percentages working in your favor, accuracy through volume.

3) Adrenaline poisoning: Known fact, people do stupid things when high on adrenaline. This includes trained soldiers who would, against all their training, fire off every round they had on their person as fast as possible (one of the main reasons why the M16 is no longer full auto capable). Basicly it boils down to experience, a seasoned combat vet would not fire off everything they had, same with a seasoned tourny player, they tend toward restraint as they know that they're working with a finite amount of paint in any given game. Usually where overshooting occurs is when the person pulling the trigger does not have enough experience to know when to stop shooting. Additional factors that add to this can be did they see the paint break? Can they actually see that far clearly to see paint break in the first place? Are they legally blind?

4) A change in the playing format to make it more spectator friendly: Speedball is great for crowds, woodsball/scenario is not, mainly because the crowds can't really see what's going on through the trees and obscuring vegetation. Due to the fact that speedball fields are so purposely wide open, the odds are you are being shot at by more then one person at any given time, thereby increasing the total number of rounds in the air heading your direction. The exists the possibility that only one player may have seen paint break on you and stopped shooting while the other 6 continue shooting at you, they may not have seen you raise your arm from their angle and continued hammering away at your bunker to keep your head down, odds are good that you're going to get hit a few more times just stepping out from behind the bunker regardless of the fact that you have your marker over your head and the ref has clearly called you out.

5) Bonus balling: "showing a little bit of extra lovin'" "spreading the truth" "making sure he was good and out" "paying my respects" "proving a point" etc., what ever you want to call it, it aint cool and it's definitely not necessary to add insult to injury when a player is clearly walking off the field minus their armband or under ref supervision. Nor is there a need to hit someone 8 times in the back of the head from point blank when you bunker them, they got the hint with the first two. Anyone who does this intentionally should be removed from the tournament, period, no questions asked. If you don't have enough self control, then you shouldn't be playing.

Basicly it all boils down to faster technology and a lack of fire discipline. Usually those involved in overshooting either lack the necessary experience to stop shooting or are not paying attention to what they're doing and don't realize the player is out as they continue to fire. Then there are those who do it intentionally; these should be lined up against a wall, stripped naked, and given a bit of their own medicine from close range.

-Evil Bob

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by elpimpo


i overshoot. we'll just say ive never had a dead man pulled on me and it takes a lot longer to whipe 10 hits then it does 1



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by RRfireblade
Over shooters are butt holes.

Nuff said,

Jay.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

yes, everyone should use a pump, or atleast have their electros limited to 10-12 bps.

[elpimpo]

y

[superdesk2007]

Originally posted by GoatBoy


As paintball becomes more popular, it will inevitably draw more people from the incredibly large pool of idiots which our society seems to turn out at an alarming rate.

Sigged.

[~WarpedRT#2~]

It takes no thought to pull a trigger. When bps is limited, like in pump games, you have to make eveery sho coundt. Last time I played woods ball, I had almost not paint to play with. So I limited my shooting alot, and I have to say, it was alot more fun than hiding behind a bunker and hearing nonstop WHAP WHAP WHAP!!! When shots per second is limited, you have to use more brain power to come up with strategies, and play the game smarter. I do love speedball, but the bps is getting insane. I cant even stick my head out to see whats going on. Even when my back players are covering me, there is always someone shooting a ton of paint.

As for overshooting, well, I've done it, and I've had it done to me. Last time I bunkered someone, I was about a foot and a half away from hi, and I half stroked my RT, sending it into run-away mode, and I got him about 12 times in the back. Total accident. And I've had people overshoot me (after I hit them, they wiped it no less). It's something that just happens. I try not to do it, but accidents happen.

[hitech]

Okay, I think we have examined why overshooting happens. I understand making sure in a tournament that the other guy is OUT. By why make such a big deal in a rec ball game? Isn't it just for fun? Why does it matter that much?

A question to those of you who have never played in a tournament:

If you see a paintball break on your opponent do you stop shooting?

[irbodden]

I have no problem if I am slidding it to my bunker and get popped 4-5 times, I would also shoot 4-5 times atleast to guarntee a break. What I HATE is when I am walking off the field with my gun up and someone decides to put 4-5 shots in my back...

[hitech]

Kind of back to my first question. Do you think that todays markers are capable of shooting too fast?

I have to admit to being caught up in the BPS race. I have a roller trigger to put on my emag. I'm hopping the latest version of the software will work on emags so I can get shot buffering and a higher BPS cap. I've played around with my trigger and input pressure and can easily get full auto hybrid bounce.

Isn't all of this getting out of hand? I've never felt out gunned on the field but still feel the need to keep up. :confused:

[gamarada717]

Overshooting used to not bother me that much....I try to get at least 2 to 3 shots on them just to make sure they are out and that they break. Before this summer though, I was at a friends house with about 10 other guys and we decide to play in his woods, which already had bunkers because he had played there once before. I shot this one guy about 4 times from 40 feet away, and he yells out. I see him walking back to the house, where the deadbox is. He walks down the hill, comes back up from behind me and puts his barrel to my back and said something I can't say here. Thens fires all of the paint left in his hopper (about 40 balls) at me point blank. He was about to reload a pod but the rest of the guys heard me screaming and came and tackled him. My entire back was bruise, and in the center he had taken off about a millimeter of skin. Some people just lose their tempers too easily. Just a reminder to never piss someone off, they do have a gun in their hands. I'm just glad he didn't do something like make me take my mask off and shoot my eyes.....god I was actually scared that he was going to kill me.

[sbpyro]

I feel that when playing rec ball ppl need to relax a little more. 3 balls into someone will usually get a break or the person calling them out.

On the other side I've seen ppl that I have sniped wipe and when I rush their bunker I will make sure that they are out (a couple of shots in the googles will do).

I also find ppl don't wipe much if you start aiming for parts that aren't always protected (back of the head, groin, rear and hands, not saying do it at point blank range but if you have the shot and you know the accuraccy of the gun at the distance to hit them in those areas more likely than not they realize it maybe a bad thing to get a couple of more shots in those locations.

[Miscue]

I've hit people like 10 times or so because I didn't see a ball break with my fuzzy eyesight. And you have to figure, you might have like 6 balls in the air before you realize you hit the person and lay off the trigger. In bunkering situations, sometimes it's hard to tell how many times you hit someone because it goes so fast and you're running still, maybe looking where you are going. If I'm bunkering someone, I might look at him for a quarter second... as soon as I take my first shot, I'm looking somewhere else. I don't need to look at him to know I'm hitting him.

If someone overshoots me, I think nothing of it because it's understood that there are legitimate reasons for it. It's part of the game.

What I do not like is late hits and cheap shots that are on purpose... or punishment type situations where things just get out of hand and they go to unnecessary levels.

I also follow the philosophy that multiple hits are harder to wipe. If I can put 4 or 5 balls on him, instead of one... I'm putting 4 or 5 on him. I don't do this to people I know to be honest players, or friends and stuff. There's just so many cheating bastiches out there ya know...

[darklord]

Ok, if you don't put your hands up, how am I supposed to know? Sometimes people mumble that they're "out!" or "hit!" but I can't hear it. If I don't see those hands up, you're gonna get hit again. It's really the only way to know if that person is out or not. If I bonus ball it's usually 2-3 balls max. I mean, paintball markers are not accurate by ANY means, so I send 2-3 balls to make sure at least one of them hits.

In recball though, I see no need for some of that. If I do happen to bonus ball it'd be no more than 2. Recball is supposed to be fun, I think that a LOT of newbies and other folks are taking it wayyyy too seriously... I mean, come on, what gamarada717 said should NOT happen, ever! If that kid did that to a newbie, they would NEVER want to go back to the sport!

In recball I really see no need for wiping, bonus balling/overshooting, or bunkering. It's just certain people who make recball not fun by adding these elements into it, which in turn makes newbies follow suit... Don't get me wrong, the aforementioned points are seen all the time in tourney ball... if wiping didn't exist I am pretty sure bonus balling wouldn't be necessary.

[QUINCYMASSGUY]

Saying BPS should be limited for these reasons is like saying all cars should be capped at 50mph because some people can't handle driving faster than that or aren't responsible with that power. As long as the cars can safely maintain the speeds (breaks,steering, etc) they're fine, as long as paintball guns don't go into auto or runaway they're fine. It's the person pulling the trigger so many times that's to blame and it's the refs job to punish them much like it is the cops job to punish speeders. So if overshooting happens blame the other player for doing it and the ref if he doesn't step in and enforce the rules.

15bps doesn't mean you need to shoot 15 balls at a person. With a 20bps ROF that means I can duck out of a bunker and fire 3 shots in way less time than if I was using a stock mag with a lower max ROF. That's using it responsibly.

The only reason a company should cap a ROF on a marker is because other components like the air recharge can't handle going any faster. Other than that, it's just building in a weakness and giving a competitor who doesn't believe in caps an advantage.

[Evil Bob]

I think we need to discuss the meaning of bonus balling, to many it's just putting a few extra into the player when you bunker them to make sure they can't wipe it or to guarrantee a break, to others it means to continue shooting the player when the player has readily acknowleged they're out or the ref has already pulled them and they are leaving the field of play.

I'm curious to hear your take on this and how you define it.

For me, bonus balling is intentionally hitting the player after they have acknowledged that they're out or after a ref has pulled them, a sort of "up yours" attitude issue that we see alot in the tourny films. I also know of teams that intentionally do this to try to force a penalty from the player they're shooting at, trying to get them pissed off enough that they try to retaliate by either rushing onto the field to beat the living crap out of them physically or by returning fire, both of which will cost their team dearly if it occurs after the player has been pulled from the game. This is extremely unsportsmanlike and should not be tolerated in the least, I put this in the same category of wipers. Its players and teams intentionally playing the game system and exploiting the rules to win at any cost.

-Evil Bob

[hitech]

Originally posted by Miscue
I also follow the philosophy that multiple hits are harder to wipe. If I can put 4 or 5 balls on him, instead of one... I'm putting 4 or 5 on him.

Actually, this is what I am saying is a problem. Why so competitive for just rec ball? It's not a flame, I'm the same way. I do try to not do that to beginners, but when in doubt...

I'm just wondering why we "all" think this is okay. Why is it okay to keep shooting someone AFTER you KNOW they are hit? Rec ball only.

[covadsucks]

Originally posted by hitech


Actually, this is what I am saying is a problem. Why so competitive for just rec ball? It's not a flame, I'm the same way. I do try to not do that to beginners, but when in doubt...

I'm just wondering why we "all" think this is okay. Why is it okay to keep shooting someone AFTER you KNOW they are hit? Rec ball only.

How else are you supposed to paint your initials on the people you shoot out?!?!


(My reply is not meant to be taken seriously, only meant as humor.)

[shinobidice]

i'm all in favor of high bps guns, only ifg you have to load off of 10 shot pods with no hopper ;)

[Tom Sparkman]

Originally posted by hitech
A question to those of you who have never played in a tournament:

If you see a paintball break on your opponent do you stop shooting?

Yes. I try to yell at them (nicely) telling them where they are hit. Also, newbies are usually overwhelmed and don't always realize they are out. On a large field I've actually plugged my gun, walked over and showed them where they are hit. An added incentive is that my local field has a 3 shot rule, which keeps the overshooting to a bare minimun...

Tom

[SocialD]

I've been on both ends of this one. I have over shot people. All except on time it was on accident. Normally I'll shoot a string of 5-7 balls. Sometimes, albeit rearly, they all hit. If they don't call themselves out, I do it again. I've been spun on too many time to take chances. One time I wiped out a tape line and made it behind their last guy. I popped him square in the back 3 times. I kept my marker on him in case he tried to spin. Sure enough, he tried to spin on me. I laid into him with the ol' RT for about 5 seconds before he finally called out. Then, he was pissed at me. I told him that I stoped shooting as soon as he stopped trying to shoot me.

Another time, I was the last one on my team. We were playing an ex-pro team that was kicked out of NPPL for a payoff thing in either 97 or 98. Anyway, one of their guys had a clean bunkering on me and decided that it was necessary to pop me in the space between the ear piece and the side of ym head about 5 times. I wanted nothing more than to shoot him in the groind about 1300 times. But, I regained my composure and walked off the field.

This all happened before the electro-markers became popular. I'll admit that there is a difference between getting shot 5 times and 20 time, but is is all relative. I think that maybe the refs, both tourny and rec, need to crack down on the people that are doing the over shooting.

[SomebodySomeoneRTPcf]

The faster the balls go the happier I am, then I can pretend that no one hit me and I'll just be crying on the ground holding my "balls".

[hitech]

Originally posted by Tom Sparkman
Yes. I try to yell at them (nicely) telling them where they are hit...On a large field I've actually plugged my gun, walked over and showed them where they are hit.

I think that is great. As much as I like to help newbies, I've never done that. Not even close. I've only helped those on my "team" (during a game).

What I'm trying to determine is why so many of us have to take the game so seriously. I know I still suffer from tournamentitis. What is everyone else's excuse?

BTW, I really want to know. When I think about it, I've always had more fun when I acknowledge my opponent's skills (i.e. good shot). Helping someone new to the game get an elimination is better than getting it myself. But I still sometimes feel the need to make sure they are out. Why is that? Why is it that way for you?

[Exodius]

My sig kinda explains this kind of stuff .(Read it).

Anyhow, back when I was just starting to play paintball, there was this one fat kid. This fat kid was the meaning of a poser. He would always talk about how fast his impulse was, how accurate his impulse was, how smart he was, and how great he was. I really think that he thought of himself as a god. Like I said, an idiot.

Well, I said to the fat kid before one game "Well, okay, so your Impulse is fast, but how fast can you pull that trigger." He got pretty mad and gave me the finger. So we went to go and play on the field. He was using his Impulse, and I was using my friend's Emag. Anyhow, he started talking about how gay Mags were and saying stuff like "Anyone who buys a Mag should quit paintball."

So anyhow I got him in the shoulder about a minute into the game. He wiped, cuz by the time the ref got over to him, the hit was gone( my teammate saw him wiping). So anyhow, the kid starts running towards my bunker. Anyhow, I shot him and he got all mad and started swearing. This kid then decided that it would be cool to pummel my neck with paintballs. He emptied about 10 rounds onto me. Then, he went to the deadbox. When this kid was done, Somebody bunkered me, a kid being smart enough to take advantage of the situation. When I got to the dead box, this fat kid started unleashing his paint on me. By the time I got to the staging area, I almost collapsed. The back of my neck was one big bruise.


I really think my sig applies to these kinds of situations...

[hitech]

I'm not talking about "idiots". We have all run into them before. ;)

I'm talking about the responsible players. Most of use keep shooting until they raise their hand. Even if we see it break. After all, it's harder to wipe 5 shots than one.

Are we more willing to accept this now just because it's easy to do and everyone else does it also?

[SomebodySomeoneRTPcf]

If they are not on your team and they are not little you show them by shooting paintball where they are hit :D works for me and I feel happy.

[UltimatePaintballer]

there is nothing wrong with it. Overshooting is either a common mistake or someone wanting to hurt someone. Then people shooting 20+ bps are good or could really suck. If you watch the hunington beach dvd you can see ryan greenspan walking all over the trigger like a pimp with only ONE HAND on the gun. if your that talented do it. also some people that shoot that fast could really suck and are just scared and want you to stay in your bunker. So either sit with your gun and try to shoot fast or just dont worry about it.

[GoatBoy]

This really just boils down to better reffing, in all cases. There hasn't been a single story in all of this where I haven't been wondering, "Man, where were the refs when all this happened?"

People overshoot because of lack of proper reffing. On the one hand, people don't get pulled when they're out, so it makes someone want to shoot more. On the other hand, where are the refs when the overshooting DOES occur? If someone overshoots, the refs need to pull him out and have a little chat. In my eyes, there are three guilty parties in this little game: the wiper, the psycho, and the ref.

Of course, there are going to be varying levels of "necessary and proper", going by the situation.

If you're out -- 0 balls max. That's it. You shouldn't be shooting at all after being eliminated.

If you've blindsided someone close up, I say it's 1-2 balls max. I can't believe that all you guys spend that all money trying buy "premium" paint, and then matching your paint to your barrels and other crap like that, but can't be bothered to target a hard point on the player -- mask, gun, pack. Especially if it's rec-ball and the guy's shooting a Tippmann; I mean, come on guys, that's like 8 feet worth of gun for you to shoot at.

If you both wind up surprising each other close range, as I guess we've seen elsewhere... I can understand the tendency to panic, but we're all seasoned old farts here, right? 1-2 shots should do the trick, again.

The other stuff, at distance, not having a clear shot or not blindsiding someone, is a little more fuzzy. I think that in these instances the "overshooting" should be limited to the accuracy of the gun.

You should really be shooting to hit your target. You shouldn't be shooting to prevent wipes or something. While I can sort of understand this practice, I can't necessarily agree with it. It's rougly analogous to blaming your equipment. We all understand that this is an 'accuracy by volume' based sport as distances become greater, so it's understandable that you may have to throw some extra paint to hit your target at a distance.




hitech: my direct answer to your latest question is, yes, I am more willing to accept some overshooting nowadays. Not because I feel it is necessary, right, natural, or even acceptable in its own right, but because I can accept the fact that there are simply going to be people out there who don't exercise good judgement. If you get too bent out of shape over this stuff, you're going to have trouble dealing with the world in general.

We need better reffing. I'm surprised the insurance companies haven't put out some stronger mandate about this. Until then, lead by example.



Honestly, some of your stories are somewhat frightening.

[hitech]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
This really just boils down to better reffing, in all cases. There hasn't been a single story in all of this where I haven't been wondering, "Man, where were the refs when all this happened?"

That would certainly be a fix. However, I am wondering why we need more refs in a rec ball game? Which leads to you next comment...


Originally posted by GoatBoy
People overshoot because of lack of proper reffing.

Although that is part of it, I don't think it is all of it. I still suffer from tournamentitis (it's a very long lasting disease ;) ) I am usually able to go easy on newbies (if I recognize them as such). I think we should be able to play WITHOUT refs. It's just a game.


Originally posted by GoatBoy
hitech: my direct answer to your latest question is, yes, I am more willing to accept some overshooting nowadays. Not because I feel it is necessary, right, natural, or even acceptable in its own right, but because I can accept the fact that there are simply going to be people out there who don't exercise good judgement. If you get too bent out of shape over this stuff, you're going to have trouble dealing with the world in general.

I certainly agree that getting bent out of shape for the small stuff won't get you anywhere. However, I still wonder why it is tolerated.

Here is something to think about. Honestly, why do you feel the need to keep shooting until the other person calls themselves out?

For me, there are multiple reasons. One, that's the way it's done in tournaments. For me, that mentality has been hard to get over. Especially when everyone else seems to have the same one. Additionally, I feel the need to prove to whomever (maybe myself?) that I am a good player. Can't take a chance that they won't go out. Can't make a mistake. I still won't call myself out until I am SURE that the paintball broke. Regardless of how many extra shots I take.

[Lohman446]

There are two sides to every story
First: I am not that good - however I play a "terminator" style, sometimes its style that matters :)

I was playing a scenario/big game the other day - we were in the main fort but there was someone attacking from the tunnel - no big deal I took a position to the side - gun comes out, hit the hopper, watch it break. Two seconds later - gun comes out a little less, I hit the barrel, watch it break. Now keep in mind I only think this tunnel or stairs actually are big enough for one person. I am now peeved and have decided, next time this person comes out, Im pushing into the stairs and lighting them up - barrel sticks out, I prepare to move - I notice the barrel is a black minimag barrel (I can see the slots) and the barrel I just shot was silver, there were like eight people in the tunnel - boy am I glad I did not overshoot that person. Especially when my next move was to jump off the top of this tunnel (on the other end), try to spin in the air "Matrix" style, and fire down it - I did not stop to think that an eight foot drop is healthy, hit the dirt hard, fell, lost my goggles in the process, the same people who I was so ticked with (without cause) were kind enough to call me out. I owe them, the morale to me, is to always give players the benefit of the doubt, its only recball...

I personally limit myself to three shots - we were playing a game against some players I knew to be new. I decided to practice bunker moving - so I make the last move as I hear him shoot air, and I call for a surrender... he spins around and fires... probably twenty CYCLES (out of paint) at me. I offered to shoot him at point blank range or he could call himself out... but this whole panic thing, happens to startled people.

[hitech]

Originally posted by Lohman446
but this whole panic thing, happens to startled people.

That is another reason. The markers are capable of higher ROF and paniced people fire away.

[RusskiX]

Originally posted by hitech


Can't take a chance that they won't go out.

That pretty much sums it up for me. I only play rec/woodsball and yet I've found that with the general increase in wiping among all levels of play, I need to send enough balls to make someone call themselves out.

Its also psychological. You said yourself that you don't call yourself out until you can check and make sure it broke. Well, if somebody is sending 13+ bps my way, I'll usually assume one broke on me once I start to feel the impacts. Even if they all bounced, I probably won't wait around to verify at that rate.

Also, considering refs are very few in most rec games, you can't rely on them. If I'm playing with ONLY my friends then the honor system works great. But at a typical rec-ball field I'm looking at 2 refs max to judge a 30+ person game. At least in tournaments they try to get a 1:2 ratio of refs to players. In fact my home woods field had the refs STOP doing paintchecks during games this year. Talk about encouraging wipers! :(

Its kind of a toss-up: If I continously tag someone with two or three balls, but they wipe and/or play on and consequently eliminate people on my team, I usually consider that a sucky day of paintball. Of course, if I "overshoot" to ensure that they leave the field, they usually get pissed and consider that a sucky day. So I ask, who would you prefer to have the sucky day? The cheater or you?

NOTE: This does not apply to newbies! If a newbie tags me 6+ times, I chalk it up to inexperience and will usually just try to explain that 3 shot bursts are more effective and try to educate them.

[cockermongol]

Originally posted by hitech

Are we more willing to accept this now just because it's easy to do and everyone else does it also?
I usually am not one to overshoot someone, but I will never make the same mistake as I did one time at a local rec ball field. There was a lot of heavy fire going on all around and we (my friend and I) were fairly well protected by the surrounding trees. There was one nice window through the growth that made for the perfect shooting lane since it covered a common area where the opposing team would cross (basically firing across the skirmish line that was forming at the time). So I was standing there firing random balls into the brush to make sure they don't try to push up so my team can make their way down and get better positions when this guy slides into a bunker about 10 yards away from me. I took a steady aim and caught him in the shoulder with a ball. He got hella pissed off and turned around and starting shooting at me and my friend, one of which caught me in the mouth covering part of my mask (filling my mouth with paint) and my friend and I put about 30 balls on him altogether after he returned fire. That moment has now officially decided for the rest of my paintball career that overshooting is not bad. I had time to aim at the guy, and looking back I know he wouldn't have shot back if I put about 10 balls on him, and if he even turned I would just fan the trigger until he thought he was done. That is the way I see that it has to be done. If your hand is not in the air then you have not acknowledged that you are out and I will fire until they are. When I start to get shot and I don't know where it's coming from my hands go straight up in the air, so in my life I have taken very minimal bonus balls (I don't like taking bonus balls so I didn't like giving them). My entire aspect on overshooting has changed since that day and I will never let it happen again. Aggressive movements of people who are 'dead' are grounds enough to let them know that you mean serious business and if they try shooting back they will feel the true meaning of pain.

[hitech]

So, does everyone think it is fair to say that a large majority of paintball players are aggressive/competitive? That being so it seems that far to many of us have had something happen that makes us insure that the other guy is out. It's too bad. We should try and remember that there is almost always first time players on the other side and we should try and make sure they have fun too.

I'll never forget the tournament where the opponents called for paint checks to get you to stop shooting at them! Or where they raised their hand to get you to stop only to put it down and shoot it a ref didn't notice. And I'm still going to try and go easier on the newbies.... :D

[Steelrat]

Oh man, I read far too often about players calling paint check on an opponent, then moving up as the ref checks em. Thats just not right. I guess those players figure they dont have enough skill to win at a fair fight.

[Lohman446]

Sometimes, things happen, its best not to get bent out of shape over

I was playing recball the other day, standing in the dead box early (I suck and often visit the dead box early). Now in fairness I need to clarify that most people don't use the deadbox, instead going off field to get more paint or acting as refs. While some new player sees me from behind his bunker (my marker is at my feet) and opens fire with about 30 balls in my direction (only a few of which hit). In retrospect, FUNNY.

[845]

In tournies i will shoot until the raise their hand. In rec games I shoot them once or twice trying to hit something hard like a pack or a hopper. When I bunker people i shoot em in the pack or just say they r out. If they know whats good for them they leave it at that.

[GoatBoy]

Mmmm... multiquotes...


Originally posted by hitech


That would certainly be a fix. However, I am wondering why we need more refs in a rec ball game? Which leads to you next comment...

Although that is part of it, I don't think it is all of it. I still suffer from tournamentitis (it's a very long lasting disease ;) ) I am usually able to go easy on newbies (if I recognize them as such). I think we should be able to play WITHOUT refs. It's just a game.


Like it or not, I think recball is the most visible arm of our sport. Not tournament, but recball. Not only is it the most visible, it's also the most ignorant. That's why there should be more refs than what is currently practiced on a recball game. One is simply not enough. It's not good for our sport for newbies and their parents to be subjected to crappy playing from other newbies and psychos. That, and the general clue during recball games is lower, so obviously the refs will play a larger role. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people yell "HIT!" then try to continue playing because they realized it didn't break.

The ref's aren't there just to make sure everyone plays fairly. Playing fairly isn't an end in itself. It's a means to an end. In the end, you want everyone to enjoy themselves and come back and play some more. Unfair and stupid play sucks the fun out of paintball. And that's the worst part. Well, besides an actual injury. That's the worst.

I would love to play without refs. I've been pondering something like this lately... But anyways, I would only do so under controlled conditions, i.e. with my own group of friends that I knew. Playing paintball is like playing Counter-Strike for me. I don't like playing online due to the sheer volume of cheaters. I have much more fun playing it at lan parties with people I know.




Originally posted by hitech

I certainly agree that getting bent out of shape for the small stuff won't get you anywhere. However, I still wonder why it is tolerated.

Here is something to think about. Honestly, why do you feel the need to keep shooting until the other person calls themselves out?

For me, there are multiple reasons. One, that's the way it's done in tournaments. For me, that mentality has been hard to get over. Especially when everyone else seems to have the same one. Additionally, I feel the need to prove to whomever (maybe myself?) that I am a good player. Can't take a chance that they won't go out. Can't make a mistake. I still won't call myself out until I am SURE that the paintball broke. Regardless of how many extra shots I take.

People generally don't go to recball to play tournament-style paintball. They go to play recball. The church group that happens to be out there playing with you isn't really interested in being overshot, or even in how good you are. They're just out there to have fun. You've got nothing to prove, and you're not going to prove it by overshooting. And you're not going to gain anything from it.

Let me put it another way. There's a common notion in training that in order to benefit from sparring a lesser opponent, you have to limit yourself. If you're grappling, and the other guy is a nub that can't defend armbars very well, what good is it to you if you tap him out time and time again with an armbar? Try beating him with something else! If you two step in a ring and you open a can of wupass on a lesser sparring partner, what do you gain? You haven't gained a single thing. In fact, if you wind up hurting your training partner, all you've done is lost a training partner. A lot of good that's going to do you.





Since we're all in story mode, I'll go over an "overshooting" incident of my own, in which I was actually the overshooter.

Near the end of a game, I was keeping tabs on one of the opposing team's players who had taken a position near the center of the field. One of my teammates decided to run the "snake", and actually got past the guy in the middle without realizing. So the guy in the middle decided to get up and chase my teammate down.

As he ran, his back was completely exposed to me, so I took the shot. I put one onto his pack. He kept running. He wouldn't have heard me yell "you're hit", and I looked around, and the ref was nowhere in sight. So I went ahead and put a second one on his pack again. I don't think he noticed this hit either. No ref in sight again. Crap, I gotta get this guy's attention somehow, so I put two more into him. By this time *I* was up and running so my shot was off and I got him in the shoulder, and I think that got his attention. Obviously, he wasn't wiping or anything; he was up on the run and I was putting them on his pack on purpose, so he didn't feel much.

Why did I 'overshoot'? NO REF. Plain and simple. I wasn't trying to hurt the guy or fill some weird sadistic need. I needed to let the guy know he was out, and that was really the only way. Had a ref been there, he would have called it.


A refresher on the rules, although some of you have already stated it... If you shoot and you see something break, and they don't call themselves out, you call a paint check on that player. Then the REF goes over and checks them. Notice a recurring theme here? That's the way it's supposed to work. Getting shortchanged on the ref situation doesn't justify going nuts on the trigger though.

[RT pRo AuToMaG]

A guy on my team is a sore loser, he wipes, overshoots, the works. He bunkers me, shoots me like 20 times, that's ok. I shot him off the break in one on one, 3 times, he wipes (everyone saw it, but he wiped before the ref checked him) and he comes and shoots me like 8 times, after I call myself out and shoot him 2 more times, and this is during practice, it counts for nothing. Now, he's an O.K. player, not the best, but decent enough to hold his own. It just upsets me that he has to cheat in practice against his own team members.

/end rant

but anyway, I think with markers capiable of shooting such high rates of fire, bonus balling is unavoidable. Don't tell me I have to learn how to control it, no one can control it. I can shoot about 16-17 bps (i play back), and if someone sticks their head out in the middle of a stream of paint, I can't pull that paint out the air. Yes, I can stop shooting, but unless i can do it in about a thousandth of a second, they are getting at least 4 on them. I do bonus ball some people on purpose, but not to be mean, not to hurt them, but to win (talking about tourney ball here). I'm not going to spend hundreds of dollars at a tourney and lose b/c I thought i shot someone and it bounced, or if someone wipes. I'd never ever shoot someone 10 times on purpose, but what can I say, **** happens when you are trying to watch 10 guys on a field and communicate with your own team at the same time.

[logamus]

the only times i have ever overshot anyone was due to their not calling themselves out. as far as im concerned thats the only reason there should be any overshooting. if you put one or two on someone and they keep playing, well they prolly need one or two more to get the message. and i agree with goatboy that the reffing in rec games is generally poor and thats really sad. the rec game side of pb is where 99.9% of players get their start and we all know bad habits are hard to break. if someone gets started off playing with overshooting and other "less acceptable" actions, its much harder to stop as they get older and more involved in the sport.

[hitech]

Originally posted by GoatBoy
People generally don't go to recball to play tournament-style paintball. They go to play recball. The church group that happens to be out there playing with you isn't really interested in being overshot, or even in how good you are. They're just out there to have fun.

Actually, that is the point I am trying to make. I don't want to overshoot anyone. However, it's becoming more and more acceptable. I'm wondering why, and that is the first step toward changing it. I don't have a problem not overshooting newbies, but I still tend to shoot until a hand goes up.


Originally posted by GoatBoy
There's a common notion in training that in order to benefit from sparring a lesser opponent, you have to limit yourself.

It doesn't work the same for paintball. It's not one on one, and you don't know the abilities of your opponent ahead of time. If I went out with a group of all newbies, I'd take a pump.


Originally posted by GoatBoy
Why did I 'overshoot'?

I don't know if I would really call that overshooting. Regardless, if that was the only type of overshooting going on I wouldn't have posted this! ;) However, I do see you point about having enough refs. That makes sense.