new military policy on paintball markers

[jungleguy]

i just recently heard about this new policy
about paintball markers involving military personnel.
the new regulation requires us to register our
markers with PMO (military police) and store them
in our unit armory.

meaning, if we want to use them, and for some
reason the armory is closed, then we cant play that day
or weekend.

i could let some of my buddies who live offbase hold it
for me, but id sooner entrust someone with my left
testicle before giving them my xmag.

im just venting.
stupid military rules.

:(

[Professor Chaos]

Hi this is my first post here but thought i would lend my support because I had the same problem when I was in. It wasn't official policy back then but i didn't want to give anyone an excuse so i kept them at a friends house off post. Or my advice is get on really friendly terms with the unit armour so he wouldn't mind coming in on his day off to let you get your marker out.

[lopxtc]

Yeah I ran into the same problem when I was in the Marines station in Japan ...

A bunch of us had those airsoft pistols and they used to be cool about letting us have them until someone got injured. Then we had to turn them over to the armory to have them stored there.

We were actually issued normal weapon cards for each one we turned in, which I though was just funny as hell.

Eventually (being a combat enginner and access to a full wood hobby shop) we started creating places to hide them in our barracks. Almost a full year and they were never found, many of my creations even made it through CG's inspections and room tossings :) I was proud of those.

It is unfortuantely one of the down sides to living in the barracks. Why dont you check out a storage room off base? Split the costs with a couple guys that play all the time with you and store the gear there. I know a basic closet size storage area is really cheap.

Aaron

[Evil Bob]

When I was in (got out december of '93) and playing paintball on a weekly basis, the rule for us was as long as there weren't any problems and we could demonstrate that we were responsible with the equipment, we could store it in the barracks rooms, the first sgt didn't have any problems with it because we didn't have any problems with the guys being responsible. The first sgt made it quite clear if there ever was a problem, those who had the problem would be seeing some serious extra duty and that their equipment would be stored in the armoury and it would be more then likely quite difficult to get to.

I ended up storing pretty much all my teams gear at my house off post due to the fact that I had alot more room for storage then they did in the barracks.

-Evil Bob

[edweird]

Back when I lived on base (several years ago) I skated the letter of this rule by storing my marker on the "weapons allowed" housing side of base in a locker at the base bowling alley. They didnt care.... and I had easy access to it. Also it sorta depends on how cool your first sergent is... I told my old shirt my problems with storing my stuff in the armory and they had a written order made that allowed me to store my equipment in my room over the weekend for maintenance and cleaning purposes. I had to keep it out of my room during the week though. And could never bring compressed air back from the feild.

Since then I have moved off base and I have a couple younger enlisted troops that store their stuff at my place just off base. They normally let me know if they intend to play that weekend by thursday and it works out fine.

But yeah I agree... I will never ever trust my stuff to the fools in the armory

[SG Avenger]

As far as I know, that is post policy here on Ft. Knox.. Is my marker in the armory? bahaha hell no. I'd just assume dig a hole and burry it, and dig it out when I need it.

[breg]

I'm in the same boat, I have to find somewhere to store my RT/Pro. Freaking base rules.

[Eagle]

That has been the rule everywhere I've been stationed (Groton and Norfolk). I tried keeping it at a friends, but that was a pain, so now I keep it 2 hours away at my mom's. Sucks, but oh well. Sure beats having it confiscated by getting cought with it.

[SomebodySomeoneRTPcf]

Those crazy rules.

[Lohman446]

Let me first say I have never been in the military, I tried and they had this problem when my vision was proven considerably less than 20/400

Does it seem odd to anyone else that the people we entrust with vital roles in keeping people alive in combat situations (or in direct combat themselves) - as well as guarding our nuclear weapons (or putting them on airplanes themselves), etc. we can't manage to trust to keep a friggin PAINTBALL MARKER in their possession? Stupid rules.


Coincidentally - I have a friend who is an airline pilot, out of the military and was qualified to fly with nuclear weapons - had to have a background check to carry a handgun on an airplane.

[SG Avenger]

Well if you've ever lived in the barracks area, you'll realise your average soldier is between 18-22 most of them have just gotten away from their parents, and act a fool all the time.

Here at Knox, there is no supervision arround the barracks, and its a consolodated area for several units in 5 different 3 storry buildings..

its chaos. I've got my paintball gun in my closet. I wouldnt trust it to the arms room, heck, I dont even trust my car in the parking lot.

[Esh]

Understand different branches of the military will have different rules governing paintball guns. First don't listen to the PMO they will always side on the side caution and they usually don't know. When I was a young Sergeant I went to the PMO here at Ft Belvoir and asked what the rule was and I was told that anything that can bruise was considered a weapon and had to be locked up in the arms room. I just said thank you and left. I didn't bother to tell him that I could bruise anyone with a broom stick or my fists. What I did was start reading regs. Army, you will want AR 190-11, PHYSICAL SECURITY OF ARMS, AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES (copied sorry). I just checked and the reg has changed since I last looked but you should still be covered. 1-1c.(1) defines what is considered an 'arm' and a paintball gun by its operation is not an arm. Now with that said you will need to check any memorandum concerning physical security of arms, everyone knows how commanders like to add to regulations. I have yet to run into any memorandum that has stated that paintball guns had to be stored in arms rooms but I have seen them for BB guns and air rifles and that is where they will try to get you. But at least make sure you check, a lot of people like to give you what they think is the right answer instead of looking it up and finding out if that it truly the case. Your best bet will be to explain this all in detail to your squad leader and let him/her help you out. Make sure you have the reg with you. Worse case is that you will have to store it off post but more than likely they will just tell you to keep it out of site and don't cause trouble with it. If you still have questions, go contact legal and ask for a regulation. As a matter of fact I'll probably do that tomorrow just to make sure I'm still correct.

Some common cense rules about paintball guns in the barracks (and yes I had my paintball gun in the barracks for 7 years without any problems). Don't give them an excuse to take it. Don't display it, don't wave it around, and don’t shoot it in the garrison area, as a matter of fact just leave it in your gear bag unless you’re cleaning it. Don't raise a big stink about that you do have it in the barracks. Don't lie about having it if asked. Don't threaten anyone with it. If you don't make a big deal about having a paintball gun it won’t be a big deal, usually.

Remember, if your going to pick a fight, make sure you got the ammo to back yourself up and never just accept what someone thinks is correct as the right answer.

[WarBUCKs]

I don't know what rank you are but is it possible for you to move off base. When I was an E-4, I moved out of the barracks and into my own apartment. The Gov. and all the great taxpayers out there (all of you, sniff) paid for it!!!

[Esh]

WarBUCKs, It is going to depend on barracks space and the post command. When I came back to Ft. Belvoir two years ago as a Staff Sergeant, I could not move off post because they had empty barracks space and the rooms were large enough by reg. When I came back from OEF I was forced out since they needed my room for another unit. Some post are suffering from severe room shortages so they will give Specialists the option with command aproval, some you have to be an NCO.

I personally love living off post. When you look at what my BAQ is and what that BAQ was paying for on post, any civilian wouldn't accept it.

[lamby]

I was in the Air force for 8 years and lived in the dorms for about 6 of those 8. I was at 5 bases in 3 countrys (two army posts and 3 AF bases). There was never a problem with my paintball marker, but times change. I did however have have 5 real firearms in the armory. I received a letter from my commander, and indorsed by the base/post commander at all but one location to have full access to my firearms with no more than a 1 hour notice. I was an avid hunter, and when the mood hit I wanted to go. I NEVER had a problem getting weapons from the armory, and after a while you get a good repore with the armoror (as long as you are not a knob), and can get away with some "rule bending" like having your firearms in the dorms for a short period of time, after informing the MP/SPs where and how the arm will be stored. (It must be in a locked case, and have a trigger lock or breech lock for my case)

Dorms suck, plain and simple. Too many idiots there that is why your RIGHTS to bear arms was infringed. I fought this fight with the NRA and the highest levels of AF brass to no avail. If the NRA can't win the fight, I dont think the fight can be won.

Good luck on the fight, and if possible find a reason to get out of the dorm. It is not that hard, just read all the regs and you will find a hardship. That is what I did (sleep disorder that prevented me from sleeping in a noisy dorm enviroment). Not really, but the doc gave me the pass to get BAS and BAQ.


Lamby
former E-4 USAF (2E154 TV and security systems journeyman)
current NRA life member
AO member

[edweird]

Remember that although we are serving in the forces that protect this country and our way of life. We give up certain rights to participate in this when we signed on the dotted line. Watch out for the trickey ways the UCMJ alters reality on military instalations and what "rights" are thus abridged to assure security on base.

Being a former dorm resident I can testify to the stupidity that can be displayed from some of our less intelligent members. This chaotic factor is why the military in general has dissallowed storage of weapons of any kind in the military controlled barracks/dorms. Yes I agree that 99% of us are responcible enough to keep our equipment stored in a footlocker and out of reach of drunken bastards. But as usuall that isnt enough.

My suggestion... Make rank, Move off post, build your personal armory :P

remember this. RHIP

Rank Has Its Priviliages

And until then work whatever legal angle you can to store your stuff.

[Taco]

not me

[kosmo]

Well this isnt exactly new policy, Ive been having trouble with it for a while now. Problem is, Im not allowed to live off post, and since its Korea, the only people that do are officers, so naturally I dont trust a single one of em. So I tried to keep it in the Armory, only to find out that the BDE commander doesnt want those things cluttering up his precious arms room. So that left me with no choice but to keep it in my room. Im just being creative about where I put it, and they can piss off if they think that they can stop me from playing.

[Taco]

i always keep mine in my room y wouldnt you... where else in ur house wuld u put it unless u got some sort or paintball room

[micromag02]

you all sound like you have it easy. i'm stationed in okinawa and we have rondom "health and comfort" inspections. we have been woken-up at 4 a.m. and made to stand in the hallway until two staff NCOs go through our room. there is no way i can keep my gun in the barracks and the armoury is not even a consideration. quess i'm stuck using rentals till i get out in a couple months!

[Esh]

4 A.M.? What branch are you in? I'd be pretty pissed if I had two NCOs that were not my supervisors come through and check my room that early in the morning. As a squad leader, I would be pissed that someone in the head shead felt that I couldn't do my job and was bothering my troops when they should be sleeping. My job as a squad leader is to make sure my soldiers are living correctly, if I'm not doing that then I'm failing my soldiers as there squad leader and my chain of command as one of there junior leaders. Oh I hate micromanaging, if they don't feel your up to the job then they should fire you and do it themselves. Different units do it different ways.

BTW Taco, are you in the military? By your posts it doesn't sound like it.

[shartley]

Originally posted by micromag02
you all sound like you have it easy. i'm stationed in okinawa and we have rondom "health and comfort" inspections. we have been woken-up at 4 a.m. and made to stand in the hallway until two staff NCOs go through our room. there is no way i can keep my gun in the barracks and the armoury is not even a consideration. quess i'm stuck using rentals till i get out in a couple months!
Health and Welfare inspections were common when I was in the service. And they are actually a good thing…. I know they can be a pain, but it takes care of some “issues” that do go along with the barracks/dorm lifestyle.

Originally posted by edweird
Remember that although we are serving in the forces that protect this country and our way of life. We give up certain rights to participate in this when we signed on the dotted line. Watch out for the trickey ways the UCMJ alters reality on military instalations and what "rights" are thus abridged to assure security on base.

Being a former dorm resident I can testify to the stupidity that can be displayed from some of our less intelligent members. This chaotic factor is why the military in general has dissallowed storage of weapons of any kind in the military controlled barracks/dorms. Yes I agree that 99% of us are responcible enough to keep our equipment stored in a footlocker and out of reach of drunken bastards. But as usuall that isnt enough.

My suggestion... Make rank, Move off post, build your personal armory :P

remember this. RHIP

Rank Has Its Priviliages

And until then work whatever legal angle you can to store your stuff.
I agree with this completely. And if paintball is one of the things folks give up while serving their country… deal with it. If it is too much to “sacrifice”, then don’t re-up.

Originally posted by Esh
Understand different branches of the military will have different rules governing paintball guns. First don't listen to the PMO they will always side on the side caution and they usually don't know. When I was a young Sergeant I went to the PMO here at Ft Belvoir and asked what the rule was and I was told that anything that can bruise was considered a weapon and had to be locked up in the arms room. I just said thank you and left. I didn't bother to tell him that I could bruise anyone with a broom stick or my fists. What I did was start reading regs. Army, you will want AR 190-11, PHYSICAL SECURITY OF ARMS, AMMUNITION AND EXPLOSIVES (copied sorry). I just checked and the reg has changed since I last looked but you should still be covered. 1-1c.(1) defines what is considered an 'arm' and a paintball gun by its operation is not an arm. Now with that said you will need to check any memorandum concerning physical security of arms, everyone knows how commanders like to add to regulations. I have yet to run into any memorandum that has stated that paintball guns had to be stored in arms rooms but I have seen them for BB guns and air rifles and that is where they will try to get you. But at least make sure you check, a lot of people like to give you what they think is the right answer instead of looking it up and finding out if that it truly the case. Your best bet will be to explain this all in detail to your squad leader and let him/her help you out. Make sure you have the reg with you. Worse case is that you will have to store it off post but more than likely they will just tell you to keep it out of site and don't cause trouble with it. If you still have questions, go contact legal and ask for a regulation. As a matter of fact I'll probably do that tomorrow just to make sure I'm still correct.

Some common cense rules about paintball guns in the barracks (and yes I had my paintball gun in the barracks for 7 years without any problems). Don't give them an excuse to take it. Don't display it, don't wave it around, and don’t shoot it in the garrison area, as a matter of fact just leave it in your gear bag unless you’re cleaning it. Don't raise a big stink about that you do have it in the barracks. Don't lie about having it if asked. Don't threaten anyone with it. If you don't make a big deal about having a paintball gun it won’t be a big deal, usually.

Remember, if your going to pick a fight, make sure you got the ammo to back yourself up and never just accept what someone thinks is correct as the right answer.
While this post has good “common sense” things in it…. I will have to disagree strongly about not listening to the PMO. Why? They are THE LAW. And they can often add a rule (and ENFORCE IT) that is not in the “Regs”. But with that said, most of the time the PMO and MP’s don’t get involved in Unit Level policies and things that Units themselves can regulate and enforce. They simply have much better things to do with their time.

And paintball markers in the barracks is a UNIT LEVEL problem for the most part. The PMO and MP’s would only get involved if the UNIT can’t handle it themselves, or if a crime was committed… such as if someone started assaulting people with the equipment.

Originally posted by SG Avenger
Well if you've ever lived in the barracks area, you'll realise your average soldier is between 18-22 most of them have just gotten away from their parents, and act a fool all the time.

Here at Knox, there is no supervision arround the barracks, and its a consolodated area for several units in 5 different 3 storry buildings..

its chaos. I've got my paintball gun in my closet. I wouldnt trust it to the arms room, heck, I dont even trust my car in the parking lot.
VERY true. And thus the reasons why restrictions and “rules” are made. ;)

But I also would not want to store things in the Arms Room, and always found a friend off base (when I was single) to store anything I needed stored. This was not because I didn’t “trust” the Arms Room, but because I didn’t want to have to go through the hassle of signing out something I owned, and even more so if I wanted to use it on the spur of the moment. But I understood the rules, and didn’t disagree with them… I just worked around them.

Originally posted by Eagle
That has been the rule everywhere I've been stationed (Groton and Norfolk). I tried keeping it at a friends, but that was a pain, so now I keep it 2 hours away at my mom's. Sucks, but oh well. Sure beats having it confiscated by getting cought with it.
This is also very true. I have never seen a place that DIDN’T have this rule. It is not new by a long shot. And you are VERY correct by saying that it is better to store it off base (if you don’t choose to use the Arms Room) and have an inconvenience than to have it take away all together.

My advice for anyone would be fight the rules if you like… you will most likely not win…. so find a friend or storage place off base. Problem solved. :D

[Esh]

Originally posted by shartley

While this post has good “common sense” things in it…. I will have to disagree strongly about not listening to the PMO. Why? They are THE LAW. And they can often add a rule (and ENFORCE IT) that is not in the “Regs”. But with that said, most of the time the PMO and MP’s don’t get involved in Unit Level policies and things that Units themselves can regulate and enforce. They simply have much better things to do with their time.

And paintball markers in the barracks is a UNIT LEVEL problem for the most part. The PMO and MP’s would only get involved if the UNIT can’t handle it themselves, or if a crime was committed… such as if someone started assaulting people with the equipment.

My advice for anyone would be fight the rules if you like… you will most likely not win…. so find a friend or storage place off base. Problem solved. :D

Like you said it is a unit level problem. The PMO are not subject matter experts with unit level problems. Why would you go ask someone that does not know for an answer? GO TO LEGAL, they are the subject matter experts on this and make them do there job not just give you what they think. The only person that matters what they think is the Commander and if UCMJ gets involved he is going to legal for his information not the PMO.

Never fight rules, use the rules to your advantage. The regs are there to protect the soldiers and keep good order and disipline. Accepting the wrong answer just because someone doesn't want to do the leg work and research it is never the right answer. If you come correct all they can do is either agree with you or add to the reg which at that point you just adapt and overcome.

Like I said I've never had a problem with storing my paintball guns in my rooms when I lived in the barracks. I had regs to show where it wasn't prohibited, never made a big stink about it and always let informed my supervisor that I had them and what I found the regulation said. And they always just left it at that.

We can always disagree as long as we respect each other.

Got to go to work...

[devildog]

when i was at lejeune i just hid it in my room, had a couple health and comforts, but they didnt look very hard (they never do). also, i dont know what your MOS is, but maybe you can store it somewhere in your shop? ask whoever is in charge if you can store it somewhere there. one last suggestion, keep it at the local paintball shop, i know most of them have no problems with letting people do that, tell them the situation and im sure he will be more than happy to cooperate.


Originally posted by micromag02
you all sound like you have it easy. i'm stationed in okinawa...

hoorah okinawa. where you at, im over on futemna, brks 400 rm 343. come and stop by if you want, we'll have to play some time. actually, i write this from "The Spot" on camp foster, but i live on futemna. hook up with me some time if you want.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Esh


Like you said it is a unit level problem. The PMO are not subject matter experts with unit level problems. Why would you go ask someone that does not know for an answer? GO TO LEGAL, they are the subject matter experts on this and make them do there job not just give you what they think. The only person that matters what they think is the Commander and if UCMJ gets involved he is going to legal for his information not the PMO.

Never fight rules, use the rules to your advantage. The regs are there to protect the soldiers and keep good order and disipline. Accepting the wrong answer just because someone doesn't want to do the leg work and research it is never the right answer. If you come correct all they can do is either agree with you or add to the reg which at that point you just adapt and overcome.

Like I said I've never had a problem with storing my paintball guns in my rooms when I lived in the barracks. I had regs to show where it wasn't prohibited, never made a big stink about it and always let informed my supervisor that I had them and what I found the regulation said. And they always just left it at that.

We can always disagree as long as we respect each other.

Got to go to work...
This is very true. But one thing you mentioned, but I think some will skip over, is that Unit Commanders can ADD to rules, or add additional rules, if they want. It does not always come down to what the UCMJ says is “legal” or not. Unit Commanders have the ability to implement rules that are additions to the UCMJ, but can not take AWAY from the UCMJ. And I think this is such a case.

If a Unit Commander feels that XYZ is interfering with his mission capabilities, or is a detriment to his unit’s health and welfare, He/She has the ability to do something about it… and this is the case with Paintball Markers (as well as other things). It is also why some units have different policies for many things, the UCMJ is not the only “rule book” available to Military Units…. The same as the Constitution is not the only “rule book” available to Law Enforcement at all levels and communities of all sizes, it is just the highest “rule book”.

The question whether the rule to not allow the storage of paintball equipment in the barracks is not one of “does the UCMJ prohibit it”, or “what does the UCMJ say is a weapon”….. it is one of “does a Unit Commander have the legal right to determine what should be allowed in the barracks and what should not be”…. and the answer to that is a resounding YES. And this has been proven time and again. Many things were not officially allowed in the barracks when I was in the service, and most of those same things are STILL not officially allowed.

Because you were let go against the rules because you showed some higher reg that didn’t prohibit that action does not mean you or they were correct by not enforcing a Unit Level rule. Actually it showed that you were lucky… because as I stated, Unit Commanders have the legal right and ability to implement rules above and beyond the UCMJ and even Post Policies.

Again, I think you were just lucky, and your unit chose to just look the other way… as opposed to enforcing a rule that they had every legal right to make and enforce. I don’t think that the actions you stated you took will work in most situations though, and I don’t advise folks try it. But to each their own. To me it is like running 10 miles to avoid walking 1. LOL

And yes, I agree that we can always disagree as long as we respect each other, and each other’s rights to have differing views.

[lopxtc]

Hey is the Globe and Anchor still around? Last time I was in Oki was 94 for a change of command ...

So how much time/money have you guys blown over in Whisper Alley?

Aaron



Originally posted by devildog
hoorah okinawa. where you at, im over on futemna, brks 400 rm 343. come and stop by if you want, we'll have to play some time. actually, i write this from "The Spot" on camp foster, but i live on futemna. hook up with me some time if you want.

[lopxtc]

Man the Corps has gotten soft .... you would have hated me as your Squad Leader ....

I tossed barracks rooms at least twice a week, and would usually finish PT ahead of the platoon (or skip morning chow) to inspect rooms on the other days. And when I tossed I tossed ... racks were stripped, with mattresses removed from the frames. Wall lockers would have drawers out and in the middle of the floor so I could check them fully ... :) I was an evil bastard, but my squad and my platoon never failed inspection and we were never busted for contraband or abuse of alcohol limits.

Field days were my favorite, especially in Japan with the interior hallways :) strip and wax the deck every morning was the routine on my floor. White glove every Friday morning ... fail room inspection and be ready to be re-inspected Saturday morning and Sunday morning ... fail either one and be ready to stand room inspection everyday for the next week.

Part of the fun of being in the grunts :)

Aaron


Originally posted by devildog
when i was at lejeune i just hid it in my room, had a couple health and comforts, but they didnt look very hard (they never do).

[Esh]

Well I put this out to any and all, Show me the regulation, and paragraph, that states that a paintball gun is not allowed in the barracks. I'm talking regulations right this moment, not policy letters. Policy letters will change between units. If I'm wrong then I need to be corrected but I have yet to see in black and white where it is.

Now with policy letters, this is usually where it is prohibited. There is nothing you can do in that case. You can try to plead your case to the command but it is there call in the end and if a commander wants to tie up his arms room with paintball guns that is his purgative. Oh and barracks policy letters are usually written at the post level and have a paragraph in them, if I remember right either the first or second paragraph, that states that no subordinate command can supplement that policy letter (learned that from being a BOSS rep).

UCMJ is just the means to an end. UCMJ doesn't give the commander his power, AR 600-20 does. UCMJ just sets up what a commander can and can not do to punish personnel and what can be punished.

To recap for all the young soldiers out there, Check the regs, check the policy letters, talk to your squad leader and check with legal before you bring in you gun. This is one thing that it is better to ask for permission then to beg for forgiveness. And if you find where it states that a paintball gun is prohibited, e-mail me the reg and paragraph so I can correct myself.

[50 cal]

When I was stationed at Ft Bragg, we never had a problem with keeping our p-ball guns in our wall lockers. The 1st Sgt just said if they become a problem, they all go in the arms room.

Later when I went to parachute rigger school at Ft Lee Va, the 1st Sgt was a real jerk. I had a pair of Rhodesian cammies on to go play at the post field. He came unglued. Tried to confiscate all my gear and the cammies too. I had a heck of a time getting it out of his clutches. The CO played, so I came out to the good on it. The Cpt just said keep it off post or in my POV. My truck had a bed cover that locked, so I kept it all in there.

[jungleguy]

i didnt expect a ****load of responses.

i definitely need to research the regulations for this.
so i'll have some "ammo", if you will. for the mean time,
i'm probably just gonna keep my marker in my buddy's house.
He plays in the same team i do, so its convenient.
but he's moving back on-base soon...

im a Corpsman with 2D TANK BN ,Camp Lejeune
our new CO seems pretty cool, maybe i can have a little
chat with the guy.

thanks for all the input, i really appreciate it.

[micromag02]

devildog, who are you with? i'm on foster with mwss-172.