Are Paintball Markers consider lethal weapons?

[swat150]

I was talking to my mom and she is on probation. Her probation officer said that I had to go buy a safe because a paintball MARKER is a lethal weapon. I think she is wrong. If its a leathal weapon then why can you conseal it? any ways what do you think. I need some good arguing points for the probation officer

[AutomagRT1483]

Maybe there is something in your state's statutes that considers a marker to be a leathal weapon. I couldn't see why, but they can cause blindness if your not wearing the proper protection.

Now that I think about it, there could be the possibility of death if it was used to shoot someone excessively in the head at a very very close range.

[vaypourus]

I work at a county park, and the rules specifically state that paintball markers are not allowed becuase they are a firearm.

Like everything else though, you are going to have to look into your state/county laws and see what they say. They can vary from area to area.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

The truth is a paintball gun can kill someone pretty easy if the person operating it has the intent to harm. I believe that and the fact that it can project an object at over 150 mph would be considered a lethal weapon.

[Army]

There are NO state or Federal statutes on paintball markers classified as "lethal weapons" or "Firearms. That would immediately put them under the firearms guidelines of the BATF....they are not.

Local legislation can, indeed, call them anything they want to, but that will not hold up in court because of no mandated federal control.

Does your county park allow baseball bats and kiddie pools? Those have killed more "children" than all civilian firearms statistics combined.


*EDIT* I did an extensive search for ANY Montana state law that considers paintball markers/guns/launchers/projectors.....and found exactly ZERO. Ask the PO to produce a copy of the law she quotes.

[Marek]

Originally posted by Army
There are NO state or Federal statutes on paintball markers classified as "lethal weapons" or "Firearms. That would immediately put them under the firearms guidelines of the BATF....they are not.

Local legislation can, indeed, call them anything they want to, but that will not hold up in court because of no mandated federal control.

Does your county park allow baseball bats and kiddie pools? Those have killed more "children" than all civilian firearms statistics combined.


*EDIT* I did an extensive search for ANY Montana state law that considers paintball markers/guns/launchers/projectors.....and found exactly ZERO. Ask the PO to produce a copy of the law she quotes.

Can someone say OWNED on the PO?

Anyway, I don't see why they would be considered lethal weapons. A bar of soap could be a lethal weapon, but you don't see ppl barring Dove. Oh well, its 6 in the morning and lack of sleep is never good.

[shartley]

Army is 100% correct…..

With that said however….. If an individual is confronted with a PO that says one thing, and you know it is wrong but are still under their control… go with the flow (this is a general statement, it covers paintball markers though). Nothing is worth risking pissing off your PO… unless you LIKE prison. ;)

As for THIS case…. Bah…. Nothing to it. The PO is in charge of the Parent, not the child. Yes, they also can have a say in what happens in the household/home, but it really does not apply in this situation. But I would still handle this with discretion. I don’t think MOM needs the extra hassle at this point…. Do you?

I will also disagree with the statement that it is pretty easy to kill someone with a paintball marker if that is the intent. Freak accidents are just that freak….. and I would bet that it would take a whole lot more effort to KILL someone with a paintball marker (excluding using it as a club) than most folks would think. Seriously injure them? Sure. Kill? I don’t think so.

The argument about a moving projectile is moot for the most part as an argument for paintball (IMHO) because everyone seems to forget that the “projectile” is designed to BREAK upon impact… which is unlike any of the other projectiles folks want to make direct comparisons with. If you applied the same argument with shooting a marble or a ball barring, sure…. I will go along with that. But not for a “paintball”. Heck, if speed was the ONLY issue, then we can also consider nurf “guns”, foam disc “guns”, etc. dangerous as well.

And if that was the case (easy to kill with a paintball marker), we would see lots of deaths caused by paintball markers. And we don’t. And can you imagine how hard it would be to open a paintball field?

I believe in caution and respect for the equipment, but not assigning more “danger” than is warranted. That does not help the sport any.

[openboater]

Go buy a safe like the PO said.

or leave the marker at a friends house...ALWAYS!!

Is playing paintball really worth risking your Mom going to Jail ???????

[Recon by Fire]

Originally posted by Army
There are NO state or Federal statutes on paintball markers classified as "lethal weapons" or "Firearms. Local legislation can, indeed, call them anything they want to, but that will not hold up in court because of no mandated federal control.


I would techniclly have to disagree with Army here. The definition of a firearm in your respective state's penal code will determine if a paintball marker is a firearm. In any circumstance it could possible be considered a deadly weapon even if it is not classified a firearm. If a paintball marker fits the penal code description for a firearm, then you can expect any criminal charges derived from any incidents to stick.

In the Texas Penal Code however, a paintball marker is not classified as a firearm. Of course neither is an antique pistol!

[SIGSays]

dang dude... big words...

but yeah i don't think a paintball gun would do anything? how did the probation officer even know.. you shoulda kept it on the downlow... make the officer buy you a safe... i mean it's not like someone is gonna rob a bank with a paintball gun

[A to the G-Dizzle]

SIG is right. You shouldn't of said anything about it. That always seems to be the case when it comes to paintball markers.

As much as I wish I could say it wasn't so, Paintball guns can be lethal. Someone has died already and it was linked to a paintball hitting him in the head. He already had complications with his brain, and but nonetheless it killed him. When cases such as this one come about everyone will start questioning the true saftey of paintball.

Here in IL, You have to have your paintball marker concealed. If you get pulled over with the gun in plain view you can be prosecuted.

Shartley, your point would not hold up either. I would glady let you shoot me in the face with a nerf gun 10 times from 5 ft. away but if you tried that with a paintball gun and I didn't have a mask on I would be in a coffin. What I'm trying to say is that if a person has intent to hurt or kill someone, they could easily do so with a paintball marker.

I would be willing to bet the reason theres NOT a lot of deaths resulting from paintballs is because no one is actually going to spend their money on a paintball gun, tank, hopper, paintballs etc. when they can just go buy the real deal(9mm Pistol or whatever). Ontop of that, if someone was going around killing people with a paintball gun he would be looked at as one of the biggest pansies to walk this earth.

Oh well, It's just what I think.

[shartley]

Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
SIG is right. You shouldn't of said anything about it. That always seems to be the case when it comes to paintball markers.

As much as I wish I could say it wasn't so, Paintball guns can be lethal. Someone has died already and it was linked to a paintball hitting him in the head. He already had complications with his brain, and but nonetheless it killed him. When cases such as this one come about everyone will start questioning the true saftey of paintball.

Here in IL, You have to have your paintball marker concealed. If you get pulled over with the gun in plain view you can be prosecuted.

Shartley, your point would not hold up either. I would glady let you shoot me in the face with a nerf gun 10 times from 5 ft. away but if you tried that with a paintball gun and I didn't have a mask on I would be in a coffin. What I'm trying to say is that if a person has intent to hurt or kill someone, they could easily do so with a paintball marker.

I would be willing to bet the reason theres NOT a lot of deaths resulting from paintballs is because no one is actually going to spend their money on a paintball gun, tank, hopper, paintballs etc. when they can just go buy the real deal(9mm Pistol or whatever). Ontop of that, if someone was going around killing people with a paintball gun he would be looked at as one of the biggest pansies to walk this earth.

Oh well, It's just what I think.
Please don’t sensationalize… it does not do the sport any good.

My points DO hold up. If you think a freak accident is an indication of what would happen the vast majority of the time, you are missing the realities of things. If you think that you would end up in a coffin because someone shot you in the face with a paintball marker, fine. But I don’t think you would. Do I think that you may loose an eye? Sure. But the likelihood of you dieing is slim to none.

You keep using the word “easy” and THAT is where I disagree with you. Sure you can kill someone with just about anything, but because that is true does not make it “easy”. And if killing someone with a paintball marker was “easy” the sport would be shut down in a heartbeat. They would not allow children to so easily own the equipment, and laws governing the equipment would be much different than they are.

I also think your example of why there are not more deaths resulting from paintballs is so wrong that I need not even explain why.

Again, sensationalism and over reactions to things are two of the worse enemies to the sport of paintball. And coming from an actual paintball player…. Oh my. And some folks wonder why there are so many misconceptions out there?

[FalconGuy016]

In Fairfax County, a paintball gun is classified as a firearm.

[BobTheCow]

Damn anal Fairfax County... it's true!! It's illegal to fire a paintball gun anwhere (I am 99% sure) in Fairfax County.
Although this probably has nothing to do with you, it's worth thinking about to try and check out... but it looks as though there's already been quite a bit of checking out.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

Wow, obviously you don't like to be proved wrong. I said intent to kill. Not shoot in face one time. I'm not going into detail, and VERY rarely has this subject been brought up, but from playing the sport for as long as I have been, we've come along way. Nowadays, there are guns out there that can achieve 20+bps at each ball roughly going 150mph(250fps) or more and thats what my observation is based on. It sucks knowing your going to have to get bunker'd by that:), let alone any case that could be worse:(. Nobody was over-reacting. Giving this day and age we live in, whenever something goes wrong people question it and make assumptions. It sucks, but its all part of society. I know the facts. The guy had brain problems. Its a sad story and bad for the paintball community. I'm not trying to make you mad so please try to unbundle your undies. I understand your point of view.

[shartley]

Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
Wow, obviously you don't like to be proved wrong. I said intent to kill. Not shoot in face one time. I'm not going into detail, and VERY rarely has this subject been brought up, but from playing the sport for as long as I have been, we've come along way. Nowadays, there are guns out there that can achieve 20+bps at each ball roughly going 150mph(250fps) or more and thats what my observation is based on. It sucks knowing your going to have to get bunker'd by that:), let alone any case that could be worse:(. Nobody was over-reacting. Giving this day and age we live in, whenever something goes wrong people question it and make assumptions. It sucks, but its all part of society. I know the facts. The guy had brain problems. Its a sad story and bad for the paintball community. I'm not trying to make you mad so please try to unbundle your undies. I understand your point of view.
Proven wrong? You didn’t prove me wrong.

Your observation leaves out that a paintball is DESIGNED to break upon impact. All your arguments would hold up well but for that one factor. A paintball going 150 mph is different than any solid object going the same speed.

Example… being hit in the head by a solid object the size of a paintball, but not designed to break, going only 50 mph could very well KILL you. However, a paintball going 150 mph, which is designed to break upon impact, has little chance of KILLING you. If it did, the sport of paintball would be illegal… period.

Someone’s “intent” does not change physics. A person’s intent to kill does not suddenly make a paintball react in a manner that it normally would not react in. And you were the one who brought up the number of times getting hit in the face, not me.

Also, my “undies” are not in a “bundle”. I am discussing the issue with you (and others), nothing more. I am not upset, nor even affected one way or the other by your views in a personal manner. I just think they are dangerous for the sport. I think they don’t look at the realities of simple physics and our equipment. I think they sensationalize freak accidents and inflate any risks there are concerning the sport and its equipment. And that is not good for either the sport or the industry.

You posted your opinions and thoughts on an open forum, and so did I. You stated your points of view and why you disagree with mine, as did I with yours. It’s all good. And folks can determine for themselves how THEY feel about it.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

Then why would you have to sign a waiver at a field and why is there field speed(FPS)?

[A to the G-Dizzle]

And I have one more thing to add. I never said anything about paintballs comming out of the gun. At Philly PSP, some of the Kids brought foam, almost rubber balls that are made to be shot out of a paintball gun. I believe they are called Roufus Dawg(sp). What if the projectile was these, and They were comming from a paintball marker?

I think your whole case would be throw out.

[gibby]

I haven't read all the replies thoroughly, but I can see how a paintball marker can be lethal. True, under normal operation, a paintball might seem harmless. But someone with the intent of hurting someone isn't going to use it under normal conditions.

Sure, paintballs break on impact...but what about a frozen paintball coming out of the barrel at high velocities? Now, it's a different story. I'm sure that will break more than a few layers of skin.

[shartley]

Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
Then why would you have to sign a waiver at a field and why is there field speed(FPS)?
Because there is a risk of being injured, which covers everything from slipping while playing, getting a welt, or breaking a bone, etc. Wavers are not JUST for being shot with a paintball.

As for feel velocity limits, that is to ensure a safer environment, not because the fields would be littered with dead bodies. It is also an issue for insurance purposes.


Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
And I have one more thing to add. I never said anything about paintballs comming out of the gun. At Philly PSP, some of the Kids brought foam, almost rubber balls that are made to be shot out of a paintball gun. I believe they are called Roufus Dawg(sp). What if the projectile was these, and They were comming from a paintball marker?

I think your whole case would be throw out.
You are now changing your arguing points. You might as well say people will shoot marbles or ball bearings out of their markers too. These arguments change the basic use of the equipment and the readily available ammunition they shoot. And arguing points like that might as well be arguing how a golf club is such a deadly weapon too… and much easier to buy and use AS a weapon.

I was never arguing that you can’t use a paintball marker to KILL someone if you really WANTED to. I was arguing that just picking up a paintball marker with its standard ammunition (paintballs) and trying to kill someone is not an “easy” thing. In fact it is far from it. All the other arguments now being presented are just done so to grasp at straws……

Originally posted by gibby
I haven't read all the replies thoroughly, but I can see how a paintball marker can be lethal. True, under normal operation, a paintball might seem harmless. But someone with the intent of hurting someone isn't going to use it under normal conditions.

Sure, paintballs break on impact...but what about a frozen paintball coming out of the barrel at high velocities? Now, it's a different story. I'm sure that will break more than a few layers of skin.
You are correct. But again, what you just said can be applied to any sporting equipment, tool, etc. And talking about frozen paintballs….. see my comments above.

My lord folks, you can KILL with dental floss…. But you don’t see folks arguing that dental floss is such a dangerous weapon. What are we going to do next? Bring up how you can hook up a scuba tank to a paintball marker, fill the hopper with lead balls, and take out an entire crowd of people?

Go ahead and act like paintball markers are such dangerous weapons and that they are so easy to use to kill someone with…. you only give ammunition to those that would like to ban paintball for ANY reason. I choose to be a bit more honest about it all, and keep things in their proper perspective.

[hitech]

Originally posted by gibby
Sure, paintballs break on impact...but what about a frozen paintball coming out of the barrel at high velocities? Now, it's a different story. I'm sure that will break more than a few layers of skin.

Actually, no, they won't do more than that. I've been shot with frozen paintballs before (yes, at a field, back in the "good" ole days). They hurt a lot more, but don't do more than break a few layers of skin. They are only "slightly" worse than that close range bouncer. ;)

The reason that paintball are safe at the speeds they are propelled at is because the mass (weight) of the paintball is so small. The potential energy of an object is velocity X mass. The velocity of a paintball may be high, but the mass is low. So the energy imparted is also small. Shoot a paintball that is 100 times heavier that the existing ones and you could do some damage.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

Listen, I used that example of field use to prove why there is rules, because in an uncontrolled enviorment(NOT the field) these guns can be used to hurt people. I think you agree with me more than you actually think.

The whole point of this discussion is not about paintball markers at the field. This is about a paintball marker in uncontrolled conditions with someone who has the intent to harm.

Nobody stated that paintballs were the projectile. You automatically assumed that whether it be ignorance or lack of knowledge, I dont know. Same Thing

At point I would like to quote the bottom of the rail on my Emag:

WARNING
This is not a toy. Misuse may cause serious injury or death. Eye Protection designed for paintball must be worn by user and any person within range ect...

[Marek]

Paintball is listed under bowling for injuries in a group of tested sports. That means that ppl have more of a chance to get injured bowling (of course football and basketball were higher, but back to the point) than in playing paintball. That should mean something.

[shartley]

Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
Listen, I used that example of field use to prove why there is rules, because in an uncontrolled enviorment(NOT the field) these guns can be used to hurt people. I think you agree with me more than you actually think.

The whole point of this discussion is not about paintball markers at the field. This is about a paintball marker in uncontrolled conditions with someone who has the intent to harm.

Nobody stated that paintballs were the projectile. You automatically assumed that whether it be ignorance or lack of knowledge, I dont know.

At point I would like to quote the bottom of the rail on my Emag:

WARNING
This is not a toy. Misuse may cause serious injury or death. Eye Protection designed for paintball must be worn by user and any person within range ect...
Again, and anything can be used to hurt people. I never said the opposite.

And before you start acting like I am ignorant of have lack of knowledge because I thought people were talking about paintballs (the standard ammunition for paintball markers) get a grip. Try that crap someplace else. It is not ignorance to not think folks were talking about shooting nails, ball bearings, marbles, or anything else out of a PAINTBALL MARKER.

And showing a warning from an E-mag rail does not prove that they are dangerous weapons easily used to go out and kill someone. Ever read the warning labels on most common household items? Maybe you SHOULD. ;) (let alone power tools)

Come on now… you are just getting silly now. Relax.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

Hey dude, I've been calm. I had to tell you to pull the undies out, remember. Try to look at it from someone elses point of view other than your own and maybe you could understand.

I think your at the point where you want to argue just for the fact of arguing. You stated your point. Not many people seem to be going with it but its stated. Arguing with me will just make you look stupid.

[shartley]

Originally posted by A to the G-Dizzle
Hey dude, I've been calm. I had to tell you to pull the undies out, remember. Try to look at it from someone elses point of view other than your own and maybe you could understand.

I think your at the point where you want to argue just for the fact of arguing. You stated your point. Not many people seem to be going with it but its stated. Arguing with me will just make you look stupid.
Just because you tell me to pull my undies does not mean they needed pulling……. ;)

This is now becoming counter productive. You are more interested in taking personal jabs at me than backing up your arguments with relevant and honest points. That does not mean I don’t see your point of view… I just disagree with it. And you are right arguing with you WILL make me look stupid…. Phil once said something about trying to argue with a fence post……….. Have a nice day.

Oh… and welcome to AO.

[A to the G-Dizzle]

You should take some advice from Phil.

And I need no welcomes, I've been around here and pbn for awhile. Just changed my name.

So now I'm guessing your done, because you realize that I'm done, and once we see what I do, we just copy it to make ourselves look more civalized. This is basically how this whole convo went. I guess arguing with a fence post is better than arguing with a neandethal.

Have a nice life.

[shartley]

LOLROF Aren't you so cute?!?!!? :D

[minnimag]

a paintball marker is just as much a weapon as a pen. Technically speaking i could take the pen in my hand and stab it into your neck and kill you or at least injure you. Also do you know how much trauma it takes to kill someone? People live after being thrown from cars, having a cote hanger go through their chest (i saw it on discovery channel :)) and countless other things. It is a lot harder to kill someone then you are presenting. Sure a paintball gun loaded with ball bearings is going to hurt someone but can a paintball gun even fire ball bearings? Have you ever seen it? probably not because (assumption) i dont thinkthat the force from the air preasure is enough to shoot a ball bearing with enough force. Sure a paintball gun may harm someone but like said before intent doesn't change physics and if they could kill someone then they wouldnt be leagal in the first place.

*edit -small spelling mistake

[A to the G-Dizzle]

Are you talking to me or shartley? Whoever brought up ball bearings or marbels being shot out of a paintball gun should start using the better half of their brain. The only projectiles I spoke of were Roufus Dawg(sp) pellets which are also made to be shot out of a paintball gun.

If anyone knows a website for those pellets, please PM me.

[dinger]

this thread is becoming unproductive to the topic. people just have different views on paintball MARKERS than others.

plus, make sure you say paintball MARKER to the PO. i dont think that paintball GUN sounds too good to them... merely explain its just tag with little balls of paint, and that you need to MARK them to get out, hence calling it a paintball MARKER :D :D


2¢

[Recon by Fire]

Okay let's sum things up here:

We have determined that sometimes paintball markers are considered firearms and that sometimes they may be considered lethal weapons. We have also determined that this thread is a dangerous weapon.

Yep, that's about all the damage we can do here.....

[Lohman446]

I've had this conversation on these boards, I've had this conversation with my lawyer.

In the state of Michigan anything that uses compressed air (among other things) to propel a projectile (other than a .177 caliper BB) is technically a firearm under the statute (anyone who wants to look into this feel free to search the subject - I did a longer post on it). That being said, this law has NEVER been tested in Michigan in regards to paintball markers or enforced. hmmm... and if tested we would have all sorts of havoc once we hit the stiffer MI handgun laws, but anyways... we have had this debate before, it is the law, it is not enforced, and it is best to let sleeping dogs be.


Most state laws, and the B.A.T.F. do not consider paintball markers firearms - however things such as silencers cause conflict with the B.A.T.F as they are readily modified to firearm status...

Long and short of it - DON'T ARGUE WITH PROBATION OFFICERS YOU WILL LOOSE. GET A SAFE, MAKE PO HAPPY AND DON'T PUSH THE POINT. These people have jobs to do, make them hard and they will make their charges lives hard.

[vaypourus]

Originally posted by Army


Local legislation can, indeed, call them anything they want to, but that will not hold up in court because of no mandated federal control.

Does your county park allow baseball bats and kiddie pools? Those have killed more "children" than all civilian firearms statistics combined.


I just double checked in the rules yesterday; it says "Firearms, which may include but not limited to any device that releases a projectile at a speed high enough to cause injury or death"

It then had a list of things like crossbows, pellet guns, slingshots, paintball markers, homemade contraptions....etc. Being that it is under County jurisdiction, and its stated right in the rules, I think it would hold up in county court. My boss told me that there were arrest in the past from people using potato cannons in the park.

And as far as the kiddy pools and baseball bats, there is a section on each of those as well (all swimming is banned in the park. We have a pond, but I suppose that a kiddy pool could be considered swimming). Baseball bats are also allowed (we have several baseball diamonds) as long as they comply with the park rules and are not used maliciously.