Man ... gotta love this continued arguement ....

[lopxtc]

Man my area is flooded with autocockers ... just about every pro shop in the area (St. Louis) has their own custom autocockers ... so of course they are more accurate then any other marker ...

http://www.mcpaintball.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

Anyone think of anything that I missed?


(Start of posting)
First person
I will tell you this right now that autocockers shoot farther than any angel! And yes Alex that includes yours!

me
Believe it or not you will find that allot of the further shooting belief comes from how you hold the marker. Double vs. Single trigger frames, different drops, size of tank, etc ... all of those will influence how you hold your marker and in the end how you view the ball as its flying.

Many people will say that closed bot should be more accurate since the bolt is stationary when the shot is fires, where as a open bolt the bolt is moving forward at the time of firing ... but if this were true it would only be on the very first shot since in both cases (opened/closed) the ball is actually fired at the same moment. In both types the bolt is fully forward and the chamber sealed when the marker fires. So at this point accuracy is literally in the hands of the shooter.

Remember the military's M60 medium machine gun is fired from the open bolt and no one disputes its accuracy

other person
i have a autococker which is a closed bolt and i have a impulse which is a open bolt and my autococker is much more acuarate that my impulse and it has better distance thatn my impulse and when i shoot my impulse the balls will curve up and then come back down my cocker shoots strait. Even though i always use my impulse i will admit that my cocker is alot more. So what you say russ isnt exactly true. I have seen it myself all paintball guns shoot diferntlly and i have played with alot of differnt guns Angels, Cockers,Impulses,Bushmasters,Defients,Shockers, and Matrixs, they all shoot diferent. But a matrix shoots alot like a cocker.

me again
As a person who used to shoot autocockers since early 1993, I also used to believe this fallacy, but having been present when the case was proven (my friends physics test) it is not true. Accuracy in paintball is determined solely by paint to barrel match. All markers fire at the exact same point, with the bolt all the way forward and the breech full sealed. Assuming the both markers have an equal paint to barrel match. only user intervention can further affect accuracy.

Look at the firing cycle ...
"closed bolt"
ball enters breech => bolt closes breech => trigger pulled => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech

"open bolt"
ball enters breech => trigger pulled => bolt closes breech => ball fired from sealed breech => bolt moves back => ball enters breech

So what we do see from the above? The only difference is the firing sequence is when the trigger is pulled. In both cases the bolt moves forward and "shoots" the paintball down the barrel on a closed breech. Since the trigger pull is the only step that is both in a different order, and also the only step that involves human intervention it is the only portion that can affect accuracy ... this is also know as an I/D-10-T user fault ...

Using basic logic you can see that its impossible for one marker to shoot a paintball different then another since they all operate in the same capacity. A bolt with a hollow opening at the tip moves a paintball into a cylinder and then allows air to come out of the tip forcing the paintball down the cylinder.

Given that basic description you can then see that there are only four real factors that affect accuracy ....

1 -- Paint, assuming a tournament where everyone is shooting BYOP this is no longer a factor.

2 -- Air pressue behind ball, assuming everyone is using a marker that works as described above this is also no longer a factor. And unless I am mistaken that is how all markers work aside from the Ice Epic marker.

3 -- Marker control, or how well the person shooting the marker can shoot. Again assuming a bench test with both markers locked down, this is no longer a factor.

4 -- How well paint fits in the barrel, this is the now the only factor that comes into play. A ball that doesnt match the barrel will bounch in the barrel and allow more air to get past it. A ball with a good three paint match (ie three points of the shell touch the barrel) will allows less air to get around it, and also not bounce when going down the barrel. This is why you get jumps in FPS with a bad match.

I am sorry to say that all markers do fire the same way, but only differ in the trigger pull step of the firing sequence.

second person again
Even though open bolts eventually close when they are shot they have blow back which is what has efect on the balls acurracy. Closed bolts have no blow back that is what makes them more accurate than open. Insted of closed bolts using blow back to recock most of them use pnematics, that is also why closed bolts are quieter than open cuz there is no blow back. So its not the movement that the bolt makes wether it stays open or closes it is the way the air hits the ball.

me
Ah but almost all of the gas that is "blown back" goes up into the feed tube where its energy is dispersed by the ball stack. This was one of the ideas behind the air assist in the shockers and 'dreny angels ... it doesnt do anything to effect the ball in the barrel. If anything it would be more air pressure behind the ball as it flies.

You can also check out warpig which has done a similar test ... http://www.warpig.com/paintball/technical/paintguns/balistic/closedopen.shtml ...

A similar test was also performed on an Autococker equiped with a firestorm kit, which allows the marker to shoot both open and closed bolt depending on what the user wants. Again results that were withn only a percentage point or two of each other.

I am happy to debate all day ... but my friends master is physics and my two years of physics have shown that it is just a myth and nothing more. So if you can find test results (I have given you a link to proof of one set of results) that can back up your theory please provide them.

I will also be happy to point you to the http://www.automags.org/forums where they have proven not only this, but many other paintball theorys as well.

third person
solely on paint to barrel match? surely you jest.... i will quote my brother in saying i dont care if you find a paint that matches a blade perfectly its not going to shoot as straight as ANYTHING ELSE and that is a fact... (Ive seen) accuracy and trajectory are both VERY much affected by the consistancy of the marker...

me
I really do love how people think the laws of physics and fluid dynamics dont exist in their sphere of influence. People the laws that determine how a paintball flys were written and established long before a paintball was first built ...

Time and again people have proven (Again I point you to one proof above) that paint to barrel match in addition to consistent air pressure (i.e. consistent regulator) are the only factors that effect accuracy.

But yes when it comes to accuracry its ...

1 -- Paint to barrel match, most important.
2 -- Air regulation ... same amount of air put against the ball each time, second most important.

last person
*cough*FLATLINE*cough*

me
*cough* Flatline barrel is for distance not accuracy *cough* ...
*cough* balls are usually going to slow with the flatline they bounce *cough* ...

Get yourself some cough medicine, and come back later

By that logic ... an autococker with a flatline barrel should be the most accurate marker in the game ...

Damn must of missed all those flatline autocockers at the last couple PSP/NPPL tourneys ...



Thanks,

Aaron

[Evil Bob]

Yeah, a note about having to register to view your post would have been nice :)

-Evil Bob

[Ov3rmind]

Feel like copying and pasting? Cause I don't feel like registering.

[lopxtc]

Hey that is my apology ... I didnt know you had to register to view.

Aaron

[Miscue]

I dunno why I always gotta throw in my 2 cents... :p

[Skoad]

Miscue, make sure you save that as a .txt or something so you don't have to type it again.

[lopxtc]

Now see that is why I like this guy :)

Aaron

[Ronin 23]

You can only load the latest radar guided paintballs on a closed-bolt gun.:)

[Dayspring]

Show off...

2 Cents? That was more like about $50 bucks!


Originally posted by Miscue
I dunno why I always gotta throw in my 2 cents... :p

[No sKiLLz]

(sigh) I'm tired of clearing up misunderstandings about closed and open bolt accuracy. Ronin, radar guided paintballs is just stupid.

In an open bolt marker, the Gnomes get more sun, hence they have a tendancy to frolick and lay out tanning rather than guiding the paint out of the marker, whilst in a closed bolt marker there is nothing to distract the gnomes because they are enclosed in the chamber and so they focus solely on proper and quality paint handling.

[Ronin 23]

stand corrected...:)

[rpm07]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
(sigh) I'm tired of clearing up misunderstandings about closed and open bolt accuracy. Ronin, radar guided paintballs is just stupid.

In an open bolt marker, the Gnomes get more sun, hence they have a tendancy to frolick and lay out tanning rather than guiding the paint out of the marker, whilst in a closed bolt marker there is nothing to distract the gnomes because they are enclosed in the chamber and so they focus solely on proper and quality paint handling.

Thats funny as hell

[No sKiLLz]

:D

[Willystyle21]

God I could have used you and your methods of persuasion the last time i was at my field. Did you know that Timmies and cocker's are faster and far more accurate than anything out there even (GASP!!!!!) an angel.................. Who knew such thing were to come in our humble game.

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by No sKiLLz
In an open bolt marker, the Gnomes get more sun, hence they have a tendancy to frolick and lay out tanning rather than guiding the paint out of the marker, whilst in a closed bolt marker there is nothing to distract the gnomes because they are enclosed in the chamber and so they focus solely on proper and quality paint handling.

Ladies and Gentlemen, the winner by obliderating knockout NO SKILLZ

HAHAHAHAHA

[Grasshopper]

I love those myths. My friend (Buttloaf) is always trying to exlpain physics to me and why a 'Cocker is more acurate and shoots further than my 'Mag. I'll have to show him this link :)

[FooTemps]

could someone just type a paper on this and make it a deep blue sticky?

[Ityl]

Originally posted by lopxtc


As a person who used to shoot autocockers since early 1993, I also used to believe this fallacy, but having been present when the case was proven (my friends physics test) it is not true. Accuracy in paintball is determined solely by paint to barrel match. All markers fire at the exact same point, with the bolt all the way forward and the breech full sealed. Assuming the both markers have an equal paint to barrel match. only user intervention can further affect accuracy.



You are trying to explain the interworkings for the atom with high school physics. I don't claim to know everything, but you, like many as of late in paintball, are oversimplifying physics.

First off, accuracy is not just paint to barrel match. What about consistency in the regulator? valving? All markers fire at the exact same point? fully sealed? What? If the breach was fully sealed then there would be no blowback.

What about how the ball is accelerated? How the air hits the ball and puts it into a slight spin?

Then we can bring in tolerances. Autococker (good tolerances) and a Spyder (not so good) don't have the same accuracy, sorry, real world testing shows otherwise.

All guns do not shoot the same. All guns don't have the same accuracy and range. BUT...how much is the difference? Can we see it? measure it?

We don't live in a perfect world with perfect equations.

[Miscue]

Most if not all of your points were addressed if you had read.

The marker has no control over the ball once it has left the barrel. Whatever spin/speed it has, can no longer be effected by the gun. A 300fps exit velocity at 0 fps/sec acceleration of one ball is identical to same ball at same velocity from a different gun. You cannot accelerate the ball once the ball has left the barrel/pressure chamber. You don't need formal physics to understand this, just a brain.

Spin is the only other factor. Refer to AGD's articles on paintball spin - the point is moot.

You've sneered, but you have not supported your ideas.

[mr_mich]

Originally posted by Ityl
We don't live in a perfect world with perfect equations.
...yet! :p

On a more serious note, I've been mixed up on this issue ever since I've been told that consistency/paint to barrel match are the only factors in accuracy.

On paper, it makes a whole world of sense. Other than environmental factors (like wind) that would affect a gun shooting next to it, those two are logical. Like I said, on paper, it sounds like a golden award-winning theory. Then again, so did communism.

Now, I'm not saying that it's all BS. But I seriously think that if you could put a freak set and a Stabilizer on a Spyder and have it shoot as accurately as a matrix, you'd see all the upper-end recballers playing with E-framed, beefed up spyders.

I realize that kick is a big issue with your gun. I was shooting my sister's Piranha yesterday, and I realized how much more kick it had than my matrix or my Nasty ever did, but I can't help but wonder why her shots (properly matched to the barrel) would still curve like frisbees while mine were just flat-out darts.

I can't think of an answer. Maybe we won't ever find one. But I think I know what ISN'T the answer. The gun itself can't be the only factor, but my bad eyes might just be leading me to believe that paint/barrel match and consistency aren't the only factors either.

<feels dumb>

[yeahthatsme]

*cough* Flatline barrel is for distance not accuracy *cough* ...

wow.... flatlines dont shoot slower, and they do help with accuracy, the reason that flatlines look like they shoot slower is becuase the ball is following a much more predictable path then normal, so its easy to see the ball.

[xrancid_milkx]

Originally posted by yeahthatsme


wow.... flatlines dont shoot slower, and they do help with accuracy, the reason that flatlines look like they shoot slower is becuase the ball is following a much more predictable path then normal, so its easy to see the ball.

By the time a paintball has reached its target (considering the target is a ways out there), the Magnus effect has caused it to lose most of its kenetic energy to the point unless the ball hits a hard surface it will merely bounce off the target.

There, I sounded kind of smart. Kind of. :rolleyes:

[Bad_Dog]

Get yourself some cough medicine, and come back later

LOL
thats just like slapping him in the face...

[wobbles82]

The flatline actually does make things a bit less accurate, not help them. It does its job, add range, but other than that it takes everything off the ball and lets them float. Therefore a simple movement of winds, or intolerance can make a ball go horribly innaccurate. Simply said the Flatline does decrease accuracy. As for the argument of straight shooting markers, always consider something that many initially forget. RECOIL! BLOWBACK! KICK! Whatever you may call it, its a driving force in many markers. Bad Company themselves use Spyder AMGS, adjustable barrel kits, and very nice nitrogen setups. What they also do is lock that marker onto them like its nobodies busines, a marker that is locked tight and giving no kick, is a marker that shoots straight. With most high-end guns though holding a marker very tight is not always needed, as some are built to reduce kick. I know my RTPX has NOTHING as for kick, with a tight match, it shoots like a dream. I also use a custom Impulse (oh its sweet :D ) at practice sometimes, and I will note that this marker does give a bit of kick. Maybe that is why the kid said his Imp doesnt shoot as far? I doubt the range, but as for accuracy once you get this marker going it starts rising and lowering a bit. And as for the Matrix, the person saying it shoots closest to an Autococker, I find that statement quite wrong. Most high end markers have lack of kick or blowback, so most high-end markers shoot "like a cocker". The Matrix just initially has almost no blowback because it has no bolt, but then again my Automag has zero to no blowback because I have the marker locked onto me tight, and the bolt doesn't slam incredibly hard. Soooooooo, after all that nonsense I just talked what I guess im trying to say is always consider what is going on with the marker. I have played Bad Company, and I will say that yes, they are incredibly accurate with those Spyders. Why? Because they understand what is going on with their markers, they have a very consistent source of air, a very tight paint to barrel match, and a marker locked onto them very tightly to reduce kick. Thank ya, I know I sound dumb but I just speak from experience. :D

[Smoke]

Well, when it gets down to the nitty gritty, all that matters is who puts a round on who the quickest. Nuff said. Your marker can shoot 1,000 yards, but it won't matter if I can pop out and paint you up before you can pull that trigger.

(General statement)

[Marek]

Originally posted by mr_mich
On a more serious note, I've been mixed up on this issue ever since I've been told that consistency/paint to barrel match are the only factors in accuracy.
.................................................. .....
But I seriously think that if you could put a freak set and a Stabilizer on a Spyder and have it shoot as accurately as a matrix, you'd see all the upper-end recballers playing with E-framed, beefed up spyders.


I am in the same boat too. I have been thinking about this, and would love an answer as well.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by mr_mich
Now, I'm not saying that it's all BS. But I seriously think that if you could put a freak set and a Stabilizer on a Spyder and have it shoot as accurately as a matrix, you'd see all the upper-end recballers playing with E-framed, beefed up spyders.

http://store6.yimg.com/I/actionvillage_1756_272774078


And as for the Matrix, the person saying it shoots closest to an Autococker, I find that statement quite wrong. Most high end markers have lack of kick or blowback, so most high-end markers shoot "like a cocker". The Matrix just initially has almost no blowback because it has no bolt

Pick a color.

http://www.compulsivepaintball.com/images/products/products/promtxboltkit.jpg

I think you meant hammer and sear since the Matrix is fully pneumatic.

Buuuuuuut...I see no one is listening to me about the real reason some markers are more accurate than others, so I will post a picture of MY gnomes to prove to you that the Matrix is the best.


Here's The One gnome...
http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/71/039_68996.jpg

Sexy Gnome...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/71/039_68986.jpg

Gnome group photo...

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/17/MATRIXB.JPG

As you can see, the Matrix line of markers is an equal opportunity employer (notice token African American gnome) and follows all rules of affirmative action programs.

[Marek]

Wow, that was a great joke. Ive never heard of someone making fun of Timmys by calling them Spyders before. So original. :rolleyes:

[ScatterPlot]

I really do love how people think the laws of physics and fluid dynamics dont exist in their sphere of influence.





In an open bolt marker, the Gnomes get more sun, hence they have a tendancy to frolick and lay out tanning rather than guiding the paint out of the marker, whilst in a closed bolt marker there is nothing to distract the gnomes because they are enclosed in the chamber and so they focus solely on proper and quality paint handling.



The problem here is that the gnomes can warp physics more when they don't have a tan. Simple as that.

[TheBigRaguPB4L]

hahah classic. I love arguing with peopel aboot this. It never ends. And it's always the same, "I've seen it so there". Give me a break.


Now, I'm not saying that it's all BS. But I seriously think that if you could put a freak set and a Stabilizer on a Spyder and have it shoot as accurately as a matrix, you'd see all the upper-end recballers playing with E-framed, beefed up spyders.

It's because of all the hype that's built up from arguments like this that it doesn't happen. I actually have a spyder i've been working on that i'm gonna rock some people with. I've shot if somewhat and it shoots pretty good. I just have to work on some bugs in it and i'll be sportin it. Kinda looks like a timmy though.

[No sKiLLz]

Originally posted by Marek
Wow, that was a great joke. Ive never heard of someone making fun of Timmys by calling them Spyders before. So original. :rolleyes:

I thought it was pretty funny.:)

[Xyxyll]

Just wait till Bad Company gets one of Apoc's new strikers... They won't need to hold the marker in tight. :)

The Intimidator was first built using a Spyder body (well... a Bob Long Millenium body). They have very similar body designs.