Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!

[Ronin 23]

I have spoken in passing to my attorneys regarding this SP issue. What they've said to me gratis isn't too troubling.

What I find troubling is the response of those companies within the PB industry that are impacted the most. Is it because they individually have something up sleeves? Are they just totally missing the point? Do they really understand the implications of losing an easily defensible case?

Perhaps a PB-playing IP attorney can shed more interesting light to this matter. So if you are one, can you do some pro bono work here in AO and render your opinion?

Many thanks,
/s/ Mel C. Maravilla

[cphilip]

I have no details of the whole thing Mel...Tell us what YOU are hearing please. I am all ears!

[Steelrat]

Who can say what the hell is going on with the small morsels of information that have been doled out to us. All I've seen are posts like "SP is going to destroy the industry with a patent lawsuit! I can't say anything else about it." With no information, it is impossible to guess at how much chance the "lawsuit" really has. Who knows, maybe the lawsuit IS valid, and SP has been truly wronged. Thats what patents are there for in the first place.

When they give me some hard evidence, I will make my decision about boycotting Smart Parts.

[ZAust]

hmmm.. nps already agreed to sign the licensing agreement doohickey, so im guessing theres some validity to the case.

[-=Squid=-]

I have a feeling this is turning into a bigger deal than it is or ever will be...im not worried one bit about a damn thing happening to paintball.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by ZAust
hmmm.. nps already agreed to sign the licensing agreement doohickey, so im guessing theres some validity to the case.

Don't think you understand what NPS is and what they signed. It was a marketing agreement. Has nothing to do with a legal case against manufacturers and such. They distribute not manufacture. Even if they have the NPS name on them they were not made by NPS. So NPS would realy have nothing to lose either way...

Think of it this way... Sears has Ryobi and Black and Decker make Craftsman Power tools. If say one of the powertools was suddenly in violation (or claimed to be) of a copyright of the other the suit would stop Sears from buying them from that supplier but would not stop Sears from being Sears and buying them from someone else. The affected most party would be the manufacturer... not Sears.

Its totaly different thing. Has nothing to do with the Lawsuits.

[f3rr3+]

i dont know, im one of those people who, although i do think what they are doing is wrong because they are trying to monopolize the electro gun market, doesnt think it would be one bit bad if electro markers went away and became a thing of the past, then maybey games wouldnt be about who can shoot the most but who can play the best, and who can think the best on thier feet.

[Steelrat]

Hey cphilip, Zaust is just going by what he read in that other post. The whole thing is rather confusing, again due to the lack of information given out to us.

EDIT: If I read this, then I sure as heck would think it had something to do with the patent lawsuit:


National Paintball Supply and Smart Parts Sign Patent License Agreement
August 22, 2003

Smart Parts, Inc. and National Paintball Supply, Inc. today announced the
signing of a Patent License Agreement giving National Paintball Supply
rights to make, sell, offer for sale, and distribute products covered by
Smart Parts¹ electronic paintball gun patents.

Smart Parts owns several issued patents and pending patent applications
related to the use of electronics in the control and operation of paintball
guns. These include, for instance, U.S. Patent Nos. 5,881,707; 5,967,133;
6,035,843; and 6,474,326 B1

Note the part about "make...products covered by Smart Part's patents?"

I got your back, Z :)

And, speaking just for myself, Id hate to see electronic markers go.

[845]

Yeah everyone seems worried about this thing but i have not seen anything to worry about. So they have a ridiculously broad patent. I will start worrying if they actually start suing companies succesfully.

[Ronin 23]

The critical thing that my attorney has said is that a patent "can not impede progress"....

I'm not at liberty to say who my sources are or what their perspective is but consider the following.

1. If the premise of my first paragraph is indeed true, then the patent will indeed "impede progress" and as such makes it highly contestable.

2. Amazing why B. Long/National PB, a member of the PSP clique 'buckled' so readily considering they're perceived as one of the (if not THE) richest companies in the industry. If they really wanted to fight it, they certainly could've. NPS entering into a licensing agreement with SP recently serves, at least from the onset of any legal action, to strengthen SP's contention thus validating their patent.

3. If the next company to capitulate is DYE/E-Gen (the Matrix people), also a PSP insider, then the appearance of collusion amongst this clique in the industry will become more apparent.

4. Indian Creek Designs has been quietly involved in a ligitation matter with SP for some time now concerning this very thing and I believe that the case will be heard this October. ICD was the first one picked on perhaps because they may be one of the smaller companies with an electro out in the market. In addition, it is my understanding that the legal action was undertaken by SP while Jerry Dobbins (ICD owner) was laid out in the hospital with a bad back....hmmm

5. ICD ought to be that "line in the sand" that the rest of the affected companies who aren't part of the clique (AGD, Kingman, WDP, Brass Eagle, ICD, WGP, Planet Eclipse, Rase, System-X, PMI, Tippmann, Center Flag, et al) should rally to. Why don't these affected companies establish a legal defense fund for ICD so that they can put an end to this nonesense once and for all....DON'T THESE COMPANIES UNDERSTAND THAT BY DOING SO, THEY'RE GAINING THE AFFECTION OF GRATEFUL PLAYERS WHO WOULD GLADLY SUPPORT THEIR EFFORTS TO KEEP THE COST OF ELECTROS DOWN. Wouldn't that 'affection' lead to more sales for these companies and result in less business for the collusionary clique?

6. A wise industry insider has told me that number 5 will never happen because it MAKES TOO MUCH SENSE....sad but I think that this person might be right on the money.

I hope that if there is an IP atty in the house, the premises that I've described above can be enough of a basis to formulate an opinion.......

[Steelrat]

I will not even worry then. If they win lawsuits, then the patent was probably valid. I understand that some developers chose not to patent ideas in the early days of paintball, but its just common sense that as paintball becomes more mainstream, and the industry grows, then normal business practices, i.e. patents, will be used.

Hell, I spent $40 for a friggin clamping feedneck. If the patent increases the cost a marker a few bucks, I'll pay. Sure, id rather not, but I like the game too much not to pay.

[cphilip]

Originally posted by Steeratt
Hey cphilip, Zaust is just going by what he read in that other post. The whole thing is rather confusing, again due to the lack of information given out to us.

EDIT: If I read this, then I sure as heck would think it had something to do with the patent lawsuit:



Note the part about "make...products covered by Smart Part's patents?"

I got your back, Z :)

And, speaking just for myself, Id hate to see electronic markers go.

I can understand the confusion and the agreement INCLUDES making some things but it's not just that and thats only a small part of it. In fact it is only one small part and does not affect them now anyway as they can walk away from anything else they had on the table. Not that they plan to Make them. Who knows. But they can now as well as many other things they can do... but note all the OTHER things it agrees too. Marketing and Distribution.

What would hurt more would be Manufacturers whose sole means of being is compelled to follow it. If NPS wants to hedge its bets it did. But the others who are just manufacturers would be more hurt by this than NPS. I think it stinks they signed that where that inclusion was but its so much less than what the other manufacturers would have to swallow.

[spydervenom]

Any gun that Nat'l owns the rights to is now safe from court.

we will see a price increase on them though.
-that being word from a timmy tech who never talks unless its set in stone.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by -=Squid=-
I have a feeling this is turning into a bigger deal than it is or ever will be...im not worried one bit about a damn thing happening to paintball.

Think about the smaller companies that can not afford the licensing fee, does their to put food on the table matter much then?

How's about the players....should they really be the ones to pay what is tantamount to a "tax" for the right to shoot an electro NOT made by SP?

This matter is not a trivial thing. It affects lives and wallets/pocket books. Not intending to sound sarcastic but, if you're not worried about it....well I am and so do many people who are directly affected by it.

[Ronin 23]

Originally posted by spydervenom
we will see a price increase on them though.
-that being word from a timmy tech who never talks unless its set in stone.

No doubt...and guess where the buck gets passed to..you and me buddy....YOU and ME.

[spydervenom]

yeah.
1 good thing though...this might make bobby try and make an inexpensive gun.

[adam shannon]

NPS sells more than just guns on their sites and stores like 888 paintball...although they will never admit they own it. they make the intimidator...but they prolly make a fraction of their income from it.

the true story is probably that since they sell tons of SP stuff they were most likely offered a sweatheart deal..not the mil plus $75 a gun that anybody else would have to pay. why, because they do sell tons of SP stuff SP would be stupid to hold a major retailer of their stuff for ransom.

and a bigger reason is to make it look to the industry that a major corp folded so everybody else should also. and if NPS recognizes SP's patent it may add weight to their claim even if it might just be smoke and mirrors.

after all who has ever knows gino to be the first to cave to anybody...or maybe snakes just slither together.

[f3rr3+]

Originally posted by Steeratt
I will not even worry then. If they win lawsuits, then the patent was probably valid. I understand that some developers chose not to patent ideas in the early days of paintball, but its just common sense that as paintball becomes more mainstream, and the industry grows, then normal business practices, i.e. patents, will be used.

Hell, I spent $40 for a friggin clamping feedneck. If the patent increases the cost a marker a few bucks, I'll pay. Sure, id rather not, but I like the game too much not to pay.

i wish i could say the same but not all of us have the money to "just pay it"

[Steelrat]

Let me ask a few questions:

-Does anyone know if Smart Parts is planning to sue every maker? I'm talking hard facts, not the vague ramblings of some people. Saying that the patent might impede progress is impossible to guage without knowing what SP's intent is. After all,the patent was granted in the first place.

-Does anyone know if Smart Parts has a valid patent? If it does, then how can we be upset about it?

-Does anyone know why NPS signed the agreement? Again, looking for hard facts.

-If there is a lawsuit, does anyone know what the licensing fees would be? If its like $30 per marker extra, can any player truly claim they could not afford that? f333+, unless its like $200 per marker, which I doubt, no one who pays for paint could claim to be unable to pay it. And I doubt SP would want to drive all the companies to bankrupcy. Its much more profitiable to derive a licensing fee from each marker than it is to put the company under.

Look, if Smart Parts has some bogus patent they are using to destroy the industry, I'll be as pissed off as everyone else. But all we get are vague details, at best. If someone wants my support, they are going to have to provide details. Saying "I can't provide details at this time" isn't going to cut it.

[Miscue]

They could set a precedent with the upcoming case, and everyone else would be forced to comply. They don't need to take everyone to court.

[Steelrat]

They would if the mechanisms are different. Saying that ICD's mechanism infringes on their patent is probably a bit different than saying AGD's mechanism does. I think for precedent to work, the cases need to be identical.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Steeratt
They would if the mechanisms are different. Saying that ICD's mechanism infringes on their patent is probably a bit different than saying AGD's mechanism does. I think for precedent to work, the cases need to be identical.

Well, if the rumors are true about what the expanded patent is, then the cases will be close to the same because sp would be suing over the application of batteries and electronics in paintball markers.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Steeratt
-Does anyone know if Smart Parts is planning to sue every maker?

-I suspect they're preparing for it, but I'm also sure they don't want to. Suits take time and money and manpower even if you win.

However, SP has already notified every electro maker (as of about two years ago) that their patents cover the use of electronics, and thus they- the notified makers- would have to license that technology from them.

They were uniformly declined, since at the time the patent was more or less as it was issued in '96- it covered the Shocker and only the Shocker.


-Does anyone know if Smart Parts has a valid patent? If it does, then how can we be upset about it?

-This is what they're in court over now.

It is my only semi-informed opinion that no, they don't have a valid patent. The original Shocker patent was written as all patents are, vaguely enough to be allowed by the USPTO but not so specific that, for example, somebody could bypass it by using a 9-volt instead of the original Shocker's four AAs.

However, by means of manipulating the patent office bureaucracy, they managed to amend and expand the original Shocker patent, so instead of covering the gun, they say it now covers the electronics- IE, the very idea of using electronics and electrical components (switches, solenoids, batteries, etc) to fire a paintball.

This is something of a grey area- it may well be within the letter of the law, but in reality they are trying to manipulate a patent agency so they can then turn around and force other manufacturers to pay royalties on technology that SP did not invent nor did they actually patent.

And in my opinion, that's underhanded and avaricious.


-Does anyone know why NPS signed the agreement?

-I think only NPS can answer that. However, as has been noted, I suspect there was some give-and-take going on. NPS is the 800-pound gorilla of the distribution scene, and SP certainly must realize they ought not to alienate, or worse, anger, that powerful a marketing source.

On the other hand, NPS makes considerable money off retailing SP hardware, and NPS surely realizes they ought not anger that large a supplier.

Thus, I very strongly suspect- though, in the end it is just a suspicion- that the NPS deal is little more than window dressing. Very little or no money changed hands- or WILL change hands- unless SP truly wins the suits, and in that case, NPS would pay a token royalty on the few "infringing" items they produce- such as the Intimidator.

There might be a clause in there- more supposition- that assuming SP wins, NPS might agree to not carry any "infringing" marker made by any company who might manage to refuse to pay royalties.


-If there is a lawsuit, does anyone know what the licensing fees would be? If its like $30 per marker extra, can any player truly claim they could not afford that? f333+, unless its like $200 per marker, which I doubt, no one who pays for paint could claim to be unable to pay it.

-A good question, and again, at this point only SP can answer that.

However, keep in mind that, pretty much no matter what, you will be paying more for a gun. Whether it's "only" $20 or it's a punitive $200 to make their marker line more appealing to the buyers.

And as I mentioned above, it is my opinion that SP is not entitled to that money.

Read that again- that, to me, is the crux right there: What SP is doing, win or lose, they are doing in a dirty, underhanded way for reasons of pure, naked greed.

Other makers could be forced to pay SP money that SP did not earn and does not deserve, for technology that SP did not invent nor properly patent.


And I doubt SP would want to drive all the companies to bankrupcy. Its much more profitiable to derive a licensing fee from each marker than it is to put the company under.

-Except you forget that SP makes its own line of markers. They might, for example, make $150 profit off each Impulse, or they might get $25 to $75 as a royalty from, say, a Bushmaster.

Thus, if- for example- ICD stays in business, SP gets paid, and if ICD goes under, there's no more Bushies, and the buyers have to then go with the Impulse, and SP gets money anyway- very likely even more per unit.

So you see that, from SP's point of view, it's pretty much a win-win: other makers stay in business, SP gets cash. Other makers close down, SP sells more of their line of equipment, and still gets cash.


Look, if Smart Parts has some bogus patent they are using to destroy the industry, I'll be as pissed off as everyone else.

-Again, to say they're trying to "destroy" the industry is hyperbolic; that's certainly NOT their intent.

However, they ARE, undoubtedly, manipulating the patent process in a way that can only be decribed as underhanded, in an effort to make money off of other companies' products and technology.


But all we get are vague details, at best.

-I believe at this point enough details have passed from "vague" to "pretty firm" to qualify. Not the least of which is the recent NPS press release.


If someone wants my support, they are going to have to provide details. Saying "I can't provide details at this time" isn't going to cut it.

-SP is suing ICD. The court records are on the 'Net. SP did contact all the electro manufacturers two years ago and tried to arrange licensing of their "patented technology" that at the time was not actually patented. SP has tried to sue WDP over electro markers- those court papers are also available online.

Closer to home, Tom Kaye has already mentioned that part of the reasoning behind the ULE Trigger was the forming SP lawsuit, and that he'd been holding off on the 3.0 software update to see where that same suit was going to go.

If you're waiting for a press release from SP themselves, you'll have to wait 'til it's over. They're currently in court and anything they say publicly can or could be used against them. Same reason you don't hear anything official from ICD- they can't say anything, lest they give away details or cause a mistrial.

Doc.

[Steelrat]

Good resonses Doc. Lets hope the legal system does its job.

[ben_JD]

Originally posted by Ronin 23
Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!I wonder how many attorneys (in their right minds) spend time on these boards? If any do, however, I doubt they are IP lawyers, they tend toward the nerdy side.

[Muzikman]

Originally posted by ben_JD
I wonder how many attorneys (in their right minds) spend time on these boards? If any do, however, I doubt they are IP lawyers, they tend toward the nerdy side.

You havn't met many AOers huh?;)

[beam]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Brass Eagle came and bailed everyone out?

The irony comes in two forms....first, they just sued Odessy for something similar (patent infringement) and Odessy setteled with them.

Second, they are constantly being hated and put down by most of the players who would be affected by the SP lawsuit.

BE gets no respect from most of the experienced players these days, so I think it would be kinda neat if they "came to the rescue" of those who despise them.

However, BE doesn't make an electro anymore do they? There are a few VL e-frame type markers, but nothing by BE since the rainy. I wonder if the SP suit would really affect them that much.

[rpm07]

The thing that gets me are the people that say I will pay the extra $75 fee for a gun. Think people its going to be more then that there is a 1,000,000 that has to be paid first then $75 per gun who the hell do you thing is going to pay that. Do you think a company is going to and not add that into a price I dont think so. So when you say that it is only going to be a extra $75 for a gun ah no big deal, it is a big deal because its going to be a few hunderd dollars added to the gun price.