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View Full Version : SEAR MOD: CHUFF less with your ULT, still SAFE for your BOLT



Jack & Coke
08-26-2003, 05:07 PM
Sup y'all:)

I'm sure I'm not the first to do this, but like the wheel, it was an idea born out of nessessity... and an enjoyment of tinkering with things.

Although I'm getting more used to my new ULT on/off assembly, I still chuff a lot if I try to shoot really fast (i.e. fanning, twitching, walking).

I've spent a lot of time trying to fine tune everything with all different shim combinations. It has helped a lot, but I can still make the ULT on/off setup short-stroke (chuff chuff). Gawd, you should see me shoot a cocker... OMG! Cocker triggers and me don't mix :(

Anyways, I started looking at the trigger pull relationship to chuffing the ULT.

My idea is to shorten the pull without changing or affecting the sear-to-bolt lock-up relationship.

What I have done is alter the moment arm of the trigger rod. I used a drill press and a carbide bit to drill a second hole into the sear. The metal of the sear is tempered and VERY tough! I almost gave up on drilling!

By shortening the distance of the moment arm (0.15" up the verticle arm), it shortens the trigger pull travel by approximately 18%. However, this is at the expense of a greater trigger pull force requirement.

The initial results after a little bit of testing this mod:

- the trigger pull is shorter
- the trigger pull is heavier than stock sear and ULT on/off assembly
- the trigger pull is lighter than stock sear and stock RT on/off assembly
- much less chuffing! :)
- still can chuff-but mucho less...
- no damage to sear/bolt lock up relationship!

I figure, that under frenetic rapid firing, I am not letting the trigger fully travel the required distance in order to avoid chuffing. By shorten the required trigger pulling distance a small bit, I am able to reduce (not eliminate) the amount of chuffing I end up with while trying to shoot fast. This is at the expense of a super light trigger.:(

comparative scale:

Configuration 1
ULT on/off
stock sear
long trigger travel distance
light pressure trigger return force

= lightest trigger pull force, greatest chance of chuffing during rapid fire

Configuraiton 2
ULT on/off
MOD sear
shorter trigger travel distance
light pressure trigger return force

= medium trigger pull force, less chance of chuffing during rapid fire

Configuraiton 3
stock RT on/off
stock sear
long trigger travel distance
high pressure trigger return force

= heaviest trigger pull, minimal chance of chuffing during rapid fire

My goal was to tinker with Configuration 2 to fit my flavor/style of shooting.

I want to go from:

long + light pull + lots of chuffing

to

short + med pull + reduced chuffing

Some people may not chuff at all... that's nice! Then this post is not for them.

I'm just sharing what I've been tinkering with.

I don't think anything will malfunction. But you never know... after a few thousand rounds I'll report back and resurect this thread to post my field test findings. Of course, now that I'll be rockin' my brand new TUNAMAX, it'll be a while before I finish testing this mod... :)

NOTE: All of the standard precations concerning the sear/bolt relationship have been adheared to (i.e. sear still has full movement, the bump on the top of the sear still hits the body, there's still a gap between the sear rod and the trigger, etc.)

Jack & Coke
08-26-2003, 05:08 PM
pic 2

Jack & Coke
08-26-2003, 05:08 PM
calcs

powerofthegospel
08-26-2003, 05:21 PM
Nice work man! I was readin about somethin similar to this in the workshop forum (i think that's what it's called). Seems to be a very effective compromise, hopefully it'll work for ya. As for me, i gotta wait on an x-valve, then a ult before i can try any of this. Still great to see people tinkering with their guns, that's half the fun! I love to mess with stuff on my gun too, it just usually ends up with me posting what i've done and somebody telling me why you can't do what i did.

Peace,
J.J.

Jack & Coke
08-26-2003, 05:29 PM
Thanks :)

Like I said, this is just an experiment... no conclusions yet.. ;)

So far so good! The true test will be after a few days of paintball play.

abaez
08-26-2003, 07:42 PM
Awesome jack. I'm having the exact same problem you are (chuffing during a sequence of fast trigger pulling) and I am very interested in your findings. I was thinking of going back to the regular trigger and selling my ult but I think I'll hang on to it and see how things turn out with your tests.

rpm07
08-26-2003, 09:23 PM
keep us informed on how it goes

Jack & Coke
08-26-2003, 10:23 PM
Thanks for the positive feed-back guys... :)

I'm currently drooooooling over my brand new TUNAMAX, so it may be a couple weeks before I can test anything with this sear mod idea... sorry :p

I have 3 stock sears to play with.

The one I drilled has the hole 0.15" higher than normal.

On the next sear I drill, I'll put to hole a wee bit higher (maybe 0.25" off-set). I'll have to look at how the trigger rod lines up with the trigger.

After I have 3 different sears (stock, 0.15", 0.25"), it should be more apparent what the optimal balance would be.

Like Tunaman once told me...

AGD designs and ships you a product that they feel will work MOST of the time. The setup may not be pushing the limits of high performance, but it works when you pick it up!

Just like the Level 10 set-up...

You can set-up the Level 10 kit so that it's ultra-high performance (i.e. strongest spring, loosest carrier), but it then becomes super tempramental. The tolerance for error becomes so small that the tiniest of things can make the gun konk out on you (i.e. o-ring leaks, bolt-stick, etc.).

I'm sure there is a limit how high I can put the hole in the sear before it starts to degrade perforance. It's a point of diminishing returns.

But that's the fun part about tinkering and experimenting... pushing the limits :)

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-27-2003, 12:33 AM
Hahaha, yeah this is very familiar...

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=94876

I was working on this too a month or two back, check out page 3 and 4 of this thread, I was unable to produce it though because you're right, drilling that thing is a pain. And basically the thread got about as much attention as a CD titled "Rosanne Barre sings the blues" and got totally ignored by anyone who could provide input or possibly produce it (with some exceptions like classicmagplayer who was smart) which aggravated me so I gave up on it. I am very happy someone came through with it, feel free to use my thread as a reference, we troubleshot many issues and came up with pros and cons. I would love to get my hands on one of these, let me know if you can hammer me out one and I'll paypal you the cost of the sear. And if you wanted to compare notes, shoot me a PM. Look forward to hearing from you and seeing how certain people view this idea now that someone has made it a reality.

Great work man, let me know how it goes. Did you have to change the sear pin at all to compensate for the new angle?

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 02:35 AM
Thanks for the reference!!!

I guess I totally missed the boat on that thread :)


Originally posted by classicmagplayer
Ummmm this is to everyone that is thinking of using belts/gears to change the force or distance of the trigger pull....look at your sear, it is a lever. If you change the point where the clevis is attached to the sear you change the lever arm. Which changes the amount of force and distance required to pull the trigger. If you want a smaller pull, drill another hole right above(toward the sear pin) the one that the clevis is attached in. This will shorten the pull, but make it stiffer. If you want a long soft pull drill a hole right below(away from the sear pin) There isn't really enough room below the clevis to drill another hole, but who wants a longer pull anyhow? The trigger pull can also be change by changing where the trigger rod hits the trigger, that is why the benchmark frame has a longer pull, I think, never seen one in person. Both of these methods also require messing with the trigger rod length, which isn’t difficult, but it's not recommended by AGD. I'm not telling you to try this, but it’s a lot easier than a bunch of gears and belts. Oh yeah, one other downfall of gears and belts is friction, each thing you add would increase friction and stiffen the trigger pull more. Changing the mounting point of the clevis on the sear won’t add any friction.

LOL!

I'm about a month behind your guy's discussions... I feel like the guy how comes to the party late and starts telling a joke that was already told earlier in the evening. :)

Great thread by the way! Thanks for the link. Of what I've read, you guys have some good thoughtful dialog going on there...http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

I think drilling holes is good.

I think this is NOT as good:

http://www.automags.org/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=917939

It messes up the intelliframe relationship (i.e. microswitch)

Great stuff... I'm going to crash now. I'll catch up more with your thread tomorrow. I'm going to tuck my new Tunamax under my pillow now and go to dreamy land... (don't tell the wife!)
:p

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 02:42 AM
Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Great work man, let me know how it goes. Did you have to change the sear pin at all to compensate for the new angle?



Sorry, I forgot to answer your question...

I did not have to change the sear pin to compensate for the new angle.

There's so much room in the frame that the angle didn't matter too much.

The location where the trigger rod contacts the trigger could be raised a little. However, this would in turn end up defeating the purpose of drilling the hole in the sear ;)

billybob_81067
08-27-2003, 12:18 PM
they make these drill bits that are like masonry bits, only instead of the carbide tip it's an even harder somethin or other... lol, sorry I'm not sure exactly what the material is. But anyways I saw these at the Colorado State fair and the guy at the booth was drilling through ceramic tiles and files, and all kinds of crazy crap... It was cool. The only downside is that the bits are a wee bit expensive.

:D

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-27-2003, 12:49 PM
Thanks for acknowledging my previous work J+C, and even though you started telling the joke after I did, you're the one who actually made it through to the punchline (completion) so you definitely deserve credit for that.

The image you showed was an earlier one that was shot down quickly. The ones mostly involving drilling a higher hole on a sear and putting a diagonal edge on the trigger so the pin sits perpendicular to the trigger like it does in a normal setup is the material more relevant to this.

I'll look into the drill thing. My whole intention of the post was to draw enough interest that one company (AGD, Tuna, etc) would take it up and produce them standardized and maybe through a little R+D find the optimal setup. My stuff was all theoretical, but it looks like J+C is handling the R+D. Having a machine shop do one is expensive, and I wasn't about to when I wasn't even sure if it would work. It does (to all the doubters.. HA HA!) and having an AO member like J+C involved can only push the project along that much quicker.

J+C, I need to draw up the image and I can't while in TX on business (which I am till Friday), but I have an idea on how it can get to a 30oz (less than 2lb) mouseclick and still follow all the principles of this idea. I'll keep you posted.

Again, excellent work J+C, have fun with your new Mag and now that we made it a reality let's see where it goes. People, you like the idea, post and say it! That's what will get this pushed to be mass-produced. It would be a very inexpensive replacement sear mod if it went into mass production by J+C or someone. Definitely plenty of bang for the buck so make it known you like it.

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 12:50 PM
QUINCYMASSGUY -> http://www.automags.org/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

billybob_81067,

Well, since our fair isn't for a while (LA County), what kind of bit would you guys suggest I buy if I went to Home Depot?

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 01:32 PM
What's the trigger pressure of:

1. stock sear + RT on/off

2. stock sear + ULT?

how many ounces or pounds?

thanks

xrancid_milkx
08-27-2003, 06:32 PM
Heres a question that might have already been asked, but

What where to happen if you did this mod WITHOUT the ULT (with retro/xvalve)?

I assume a smaller trigger pull, but heavier pull?

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 06:43 PM
Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me :)

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-27-2003, 08:11 PM
OK, here's the lowdown on the effect of this mod, regardless of if you use the XValve, RT Valve, or the ULT'd XValve. Some variability might exist but this is the rough figure.

Old pull distance of the sear rod=OD
Old pull weight required to push the sear rod=OW
New pull distance of the sear rod=ND
New pull weight required to push the sear rod=NW

OD X OW = ND X NW

So...

XValve only
48oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 57.6oz NW X 0.25inch NP
ULT
15oz OW X .3inch OD =20% mod= 18oz NW X 0.25inch NP

It has to be an even exchange, 20% distance reduction for 20% weight increase. So with the XValve only a .05 inch reduction would add 9.6oz, with the ULT it would only add 3oz.

J+C, the distance figure I included isn't accurate but illustrates the idea with the roughly accurate weight figures. I am not sure what weight/distance ratio is optimal but I'm thinking if it works, a 30% mod would work well. 19.5oz (1lb, 3.5oz) pull and a 30% pull reduction. The fun part... finding exactly where the new hole goes.

personman
08-27-2003, 09:26 PM
I saw that thread a while ago about raising the whatsitscalled higher and it looked like a good idea to me. I chuff a little too much with my ULT, so if you guys need someone to test one, you know who to call :D
also I was wondering if you raised the thigny to the highest point it would go, how short and hard would the trigger pull be? (useless experiment ;))

Jack & Coke
08-27-2003, 11:54 PM
Hey guys...

I stopped by my local paintball store to visit with a few cool guys there. One of the guys, Danny, is young, laid-back, open minded and really cool, can walk his cocker (mech). He pretty good on the trigger!

Since he's not so familiar with mags and the mag trigger, I wanted him to do a blind test of my sear mod. Kinda like a Coke vs Pepsi challenge.

Configuration #1

Stock RT on/off + stock sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF.

I asked him to close his eyes and remember what the trigger feels like. ...to remember the pull length and weight and how fast he could shoot.

Configuration #2

ULT on/off + stock sear

Immediately noticed the softer trigger pull.

He could walk the trigger!

He could also twitch/fan the trigger very fast!

Lots of CHUFF! :(

He said he liked the soft trigger, but did not know why the gun was malfunctioning (chuff). I told him it was like short stroking his cocker. After that he made a more conscience effort to make complete trigger pull cycles. He chuffed less, but his ROF also went down big time.

Configuration #3

ULT on/off + MOD sear

He could not walk the trigger.

But he could twitch/fan the trigger incredibly fast!

NO CHUFF!!!

He said this set up felt somewhere in between the configuration #1 and #2.

He said he definately noticed the pull was shorter, and crispier.

He said he liked this setup the best.

Although he could not walk the trigger, he said he would give up a few BPS if it ment a greatly reduced chance of chuffing.

From my observation, he was twitching/fanning the trigger about as fast as configuration #1... but with MUCH LESS EFFORT.

He said configuration #3 felt: "just right... short and crisp".

For what it's worth... for those of us who are spoiled by e-triggers, mechanical trigger challenged, and very frustrated with all the chuffing associated with the ULT, maybe a sear MOD like this is the answer...

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-28-2003, 12:42 AM
I think it's all about balance, I would LOVE to walk a Mag trigger reliably but with the ULT you can't without risking chuffing, still not light enough and distance is an issue. I frankly think it is the distance and lack of reactivity that drops my single-finger ROF the most and really risks chuffing. So since the amount of work (forceXdistance) required to cycle a Mag is not low enough to shoot alternating fingers, I would rather use a two-finger pull with a real short distance to shoot, even if it means it's not as light as it can be.

Now two reasons AGD might oppose this:

1.) It doesn't follow the Ultra-light engineering principle and marketing schtick but that would be a dumb reason to avoid this if no other reason existed.

2.) By increasing the weight I bet the retro effect strengthens which AGD is rumored to be trying to get away from. I am still convinced there is a way to use it as an advantage and lighten the pull but nothing yet in that arena of thought that has worked.

J+C, glad to hear your friend liked it, no chance you know how much you changed it by (new pull weight/distance compared to original)? I think this idea should definitely go Beta, see how people like it.

And on the pepsi/coke reference, just saw that new vanilla coke vs. pepsi truck ad on TV and just realized... the pepsi truck is bouncing and it's carrying carbonated soda... not smart :D Hate to be the first person to open one of those.

Anyways, sounds like we got the solution to minimize chuffing. I think the Mag would be more appealing to a first-time user if it had this mod since if they picked a mag up and on shot #2 sends a ball halfway down the barrel and shot #3 hits it and ends up with paint oozing out of the barrel, they would never buy it. Plus in rapid fire it would be much harder to "skip a beat" and chuff.

This allows a compromise between the two trigger pull components that are EQUALLY important: length and weight

abaez
08-28-2003, 12:46 AM
Hey jack! Are you going to the socal mini meet this sat? I've got an extra sear lying around I'd pay you a few bux to drill it if you could and let me try this out? Sounds exciting!

Edit: Errr I just saw what you did.. what exactly would you use to measure 15" up the arm to drill the hole?

Jack & Coke
08-28-2003, 01:43 AM
I'm not going to be able to make it to this meet...:( I'll be with the family in Palm Springs.

Regarding the hole... I did not pick 0.15" as a reference to drill. I just guessed where I should drill the hole. I had no idea it was going to be 0.15". After I drilled it, I measured it with my digital calipers and it was 0.15".

I'll try 0.20" on my next sear.

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-28-2003, 01:02 PM
Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center? I would definitely say closer is better so .1" from the center would be nasty. Still got my 50% mod in mind, got to work on it.

Everybody, here is a link, it relates to this somewhat:
http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?threadid=97625
The spring idea in this thread is shot for now, but the idea of a concave sear tip to allow less pull distance but due to the wider sear tip, still distribute the bolt pressure equally and actually reduce chipping. Check it out but please keep ideas related to it in the other thread if they don't apply to this one. J+C, you know I would value your input in that as well. If this can reduce the distance needed to be equal to that which the ULT on/off requires to cycle (as noted by it's ability to go into runaway with too many shims and catch the sear tip in the process) while distributing the pressure put on the bolt so chipping doesn't happen, we can reduce the pull without increasing the weight then use your idea J+C to reduce it even further. Let me know your thoughts and I look forward to hearing what happens with your next sear.

Jack & Coke
08-28-2003, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY


Hey J+C, just wondering is that 0.15" from the pivot point or making the hole .15" CLOSER to the center?



The 0.15" measurement is the distance between the new hole and the original hole.

Fuji
08-29-2003, 06:17 PM
Not to be too nitpicky. I was wondering if you meant 0.15" from the center of the hole or from the edge of the hole? I don't have the tools at present to complete this mod, but it does have my attention.

xrancid_milkx
08-31-2003, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Jack & Coke
Your assumption is correct!

The ULT is what makes this mod attractive... at least to me :)

So without a ULT, this mod would make a shorter, heavier pull (xvlave/retro).

Heres my question, by making the trigger pull smaller, would it make it easier to get trigger bounce with an xvalve/retro if marker did not have ULT mod?

(Note I have very little knowledge about anything and everything when it comes to moding a marker)
I thought since the pull force was increased, so would the return force for the sear, allowing trigger bounce much easier. If this was the case, it would be a fun mod for rec-play. But knowing my knowledge on this subject, I couldn't farther from being right :rolleyes:

QUINCYMASSGUY
08-31-2003, 07:15 PM
Yes, you are right, pull weight/retro weight is roughly 1:3, so if the pull is 4lbs, the retro could be up to 12lbs and could open the door for bounce. That is why using it with the ULT would probably be the optimal setup for tourneys. It will still be exceptionally lower than the 9lb return of the former on/off but would be more than the 15oz pull's. If we did a 20% mod, it would probably add about 9oz of return force which could help reduce chuffing but not be so much that it'll cause issues.

pbgunrunner
09-10-2003, 09:27 PM
one positive effect that you may have failed to consider is how your body reacts to the heavier trigger pull. One of the ways I get around newbies short-stroking cockers is to add a bit more sear/lug engagement, thus requiring more pressure to fire the gun, then, since it takes a bit for your body to respond and "stop pulling" the trigger as the sear breaks, your muscle contraction automatically finishes the stroke. The heavier the pull, the harder the contraction and the longer the delay in relaxing the muscles. Your making the lever less effective increases the bio-mechanical force needed to pull the trigger thus limiting your ability to short stroke. Great solution to a nagging problem, keep up the good work!

MattG
09-14-2003, 11:32 AM
JACK AND COKE YOU ARE THE JESUS OF PAINTBALL!! BE MY FATHER PLEASE!!! NICE WORK MY BOY!!!!

Jack & Coke
09-14-2003, 12:44 PM
Originally posted by MattG
JACK AND COKE YOU ARE THE JESUS OF PAINTBALL!! BE MY FATHER PLEASE!!! NICE WORK MY BOY!!!!

LOL!

http://www.ufcws.org/kids/images/drugs2.jpg

:)

FooTemps
09-15-2003, 02:48 AM
you drilled the sear hole upwards of the original hole... what if we had a new sear built with a hole .15" below the original hole? would it yield the same effect as above? or would it be lighter and longer?

Jack & Coke
09-15-2003, 10:30 AM
Originally posted by FooTemps


what if we had a new sear built with a hole .15" below the original hole? would it yield the same effect as above? or would it be lighter and longer?



Suppose there was enough material below the stock hole to drill another hole. Let's say...

sear mod 1 = hole drilled 0.15" above stock hole
sear mod 2 = hole drilled 0.15" below stock hole

If * = LENGTH, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = *
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = ***

If * = PRESSURE, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = ***
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = *

If * = CHUFF, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = *
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = ***** :eek:

FooTemps
09-15-2003, 11:09 AM
Originally posted by Jack & Coke


Suppose there was enough material below the stock hole to drill another hole. Let's say...

sear mod 1 = hole drilled 0.15" above stock hole
sear mod 2 = hole drilled 0.15" below stock hole

If * = LENGTH, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = *
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = ***

If * = PRESSURE, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = ***
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = *

If * = CHUFF, then...

ULT + sear mod 1 = *
ULT + stock sear = **
ULT + sear mod 2 = ***** :eek:

hahahaha, good point about the chuffing... maybe we'd need an on off with more return pressure if we had it like that.

FooTemps
10-12-2003, 02:45 AM
...Hmm... I got an idea... How about this:

Since we have multiple holes drilled into the sear, we could fit extenders onto it and then lock them into place by placing pins through the holes. That way we have a longer sear to work with and there will be no damage.

Hexis
10-15-2003, 05:09 PM
Why would you want a longer pull?

FooTemps
10-15-2003, 08:34 PM
it would make the trigger pull lighter

QUINCYMASSGUY
10-15-2003, 09:52 PM
At the start I was thinking of that, and the reason I ruled it out was it makes chuffing even easier to do, especially at higher ROF. I think unless the trigger was walkable, there is way more benefit to making it shorter and heavier to have an improvement in distance, slight loss of lightness, and then an added bonus of less chuffs. Go short pull and use two fingers at once, you'll rip

luke
10-16-2003, 08:12 AM
So, was this put on the back burner?

QUINCYMASSGUY
10-16-2003, 12:45 PM
Luke, I did what I could for the project, but have no intention of wasting my time and money that it would involve identifying and continuously testing for the ideal configuration when AGD and such showed zero support and assistance for two AOers who seperately showed innovation and interest in advancing the Mag further and devised this idea (J+C and myself both came up with this but without either of us knowing the other was doing it). I'm not whining, before I get flamed saying I am, I just don't care to be concerned with it anymore as no matter what it won't put mech mags above vikings which smoke any mag in my opinion and cost about the same as a fully-loaded mech mag (all the ULE stuff). I also traded my Mag and now shoot a Merlin and will probably go with a Viking next anyways so I am focusing my time and effort on ideas related to them, with some moving along and the fabrication being the hurdle as getting custom pneumatics made is insanely pricey. I hope somebody continues with this idea as it should be great, but I will probably be minimally involved, if even that.

FooTemps
10-16-2003, 08:05 PM
wow... that's a good deal you're getting on that viking or merlin or whatever! Where'd you get it... If I could get a tricked out viking for 450 point me there! (yes, I calculated the overall cost of my ule rtpro to cost 450)

Anyway, I didn't think there was ever backburner for member ideas. It was just like "hey, why don't we try the?" then we did.

QUINCYMASSGUY
10-16-2003, 11:58 PM
LOL, it is a Merlin which is autococker-like and it's going to cost more than 450. Got raw body and most parts (tornado valve, lightning bolt, SCM reg, etc) from Bensongg and have a Shocktech Bomb and a WGP Drop Forward coming and bought a WGP Hinge, AND have it at Destructive Customs being carved and annoed right now so it set me back about $300-350 on top of that trade but it's going to be sick (once I rebuild it from scratch).

Viking for 450... point me there too, but no chance of that happening

Someone wants to take the idea and run with it, cool... I just don't have the material to test it or the interest to keep going with it. I'm playing around with electropneumatics and valve designs now.

FooTemps
10-17-2003, 12:05 AM
Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
LOL, it is a Merlin which is autococker-like and it's going to cost more than 450. Got raw body and most parts (tornado valve, lightning bolt, SCM reg, etc) from Bensongg and have a Shocktech Bomb and a WGP Drop Forward coming and bought a WGP Hinge, AND have it at Destructive Customs being carved and annoed right now so it set me back about $300-350 on top of that trade but it's going to be sick (once I rebuild it from scratch).

Viking for 450... point me there too, but no chance of that happening

Someone wants to take the idea and run with it, cool... I just don't have the material to test it or the interest to keep going with it. I'm playing around with electropneumatics and valve designs now.

Wanna help me find out the sear geometry for an electro y-grip? lol

Jack & Coke
10-17-2003, 01:51 AM
I've been a bit side tracked lately... I now have two drilled sears (at different locations) ready for testing.

If anyone is interested, PM me and I'll drill you one and you can test it yourself. :)

abaez
10-17-2003, 02:44 AM
I'll try it! My trigger is setup perfect just the way I like it but I'd love to be able to walk it.

Jack & Coke
10-17-2003, 08:37 AM
You won't be able to walk it. The purpose of this mod is to GREATLY REDUCE the chance of chuffing during rapid firing.

QUINCYMASSGUY
10-17-2003, 10:06 PM
Yup, I respect AGD still, 50% of the moving on is just that I have been using a mag for all the time I've played, but the other half is because AKA impressed me and I want to try a cocker and an e-marker out and they sell quality ones of both.

My new idea, if it's economically feasible, is going to be HUGE... but I have to work a little more on it and have a minor hurdle to deal with (trigger/body/noid configuration) that must be handled.

The ULT is NOT walkable, you might be able to pull off one or two walking it but you really risk a chuff doing it. I definitely agree with J+C that a little heavier wouldn't mean a thing unless you were walking it, but the little bit shorter is the key to a higher ROF as well as less chuffs.

Keep the idea alive guys, you know I believed it would work and J+C has even done it and he has a mind for tinkering and investigating ideas. You need to convince more AOers if it's going to be big but good luck with that.

GoatBoy
10-22-2003, 09:09 PM
I never really understood FooTemps' desire to lengthen the distance until now...

I just installed the ULT tonight and I'm fanning 13bps, no problem. I'm having like almost *no* problem chuffing. The kickback seems perfectly adequate to me; in fact it feels like it's kicking back about as hard as my regular on/off. However, the trigger's not walkable right now (might have something to do with it being my first night and not having a blade trigger), and I don't think it's rollable either.

When you talk about rapid firing, how fast are you talking about exactly?

For those who AREN'T having chuffing problems, a sear extension might not be such a bad idea.


Just my $0.02

dyeforever
10-26-2003, 04:40 AM
just wondering did you have to adjust the trigger rod when you did the mods or jsut left it?

lightning rift
11-18-2003, 07:17 PM
The mechanics are pretty plain to me, and I think this is a great idea. One of the disadvantages mags have is that the trigger is pretty much set, there isnt much you can do to change it.
Might there be a possibility of drilling a bunch of holes down the legnth of the sear, and then designing a pin for the trigger rod that would allow the user to put it where ever he/she wants?

badtoyz
11-21-2003, 11:26 AM
any more updates on this mod or is it done ?

redlaser666
12-08-2003, 02:48 PM
I have also performed this mod and i can tell you it is almost imposible to chuff. Also i can walk mine without too much problem for about 30-40 ball strings. It isnt as easy as in an electro, but it is defenitively(?) doable.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-09-2003, 10:22 PM
Glad to hear the idea worked, I think J+C and I both saw the potential in it when we seperately devised it. And redlaser that is really cool. The one thing I noted with the ULT is it's really not walkable (or not so well that it's worth it). If that's the case, then why do you need such a light pull when you can sacrifice some for a shorter pull? I'd be just as happy using two fingers to pull one shot (not walking, I mean pull both simultaneously) to rip on an insanely short pull as well as reduce chuffing instead of how it is now.

A bell curve may exist where you can get the optimal exchange of lightness to length. In other words, where you get more "bang for your buck" and the pull is 60% less but only 40% heavier. That would be sick and just the spot for AGD to set in a new sear design with a slope in back of the trigger to make pushing it at an angle easy. The sear, instead of just having a fulcrum that goes straight down, could go half the length then go 90 degrees aimed backwards which if used would cut the radius in half (50% shorter pull, more weight) and still allow proper motion for the sear to work.

The other idea I had was to see if the ULT could be made more extreme. One reason the pull may be set at 15oz is if it was made any lighter it wouldn't have enough force to properly reset before the next shot is fired (hence a ton of chuffing) so AGD set it for 15oz. If this idea was used, they could go lower to like 10oz. and the added pull weight from this mod would counteract it (bringing it back to 15oz) but leave the new 50% (or 33%) shorter pull. I'd have to discuss it with AGD to truly understand the physics and cause/effect relationships that could exist that exist with a ULT.

Let AGD know what you think, he was not receptive to the idea before but if proven results and customer interest is shown, it may be reconsidered and properly R+D'd. BUT DON'T FORGET it was J+C and myself who both came up with it and Redlaser666 who made it a reality.

luke
12-10-2003, 08:28 AM
How much "over pull" does the ULT have? I'm curious if a back stop would improve on this mod. (?)

redlaser666
12-10-2003, 09:08 AM
It has about a 3/32" of extra back pull that i corrected with a back stop on my intellyframe. I will try to take a small video of it working and post it later.

luke
12-10-2003, 09:12 AM
redlaser666,
How much did you raise the trigger rod? (Centerline to centerline)

redlaser666
12-10-2003, 09:21 AM
The new hole is almost 1/8" higher, or around .25 give or take .2". The sure thing is that mine is higher than J&C's.
That may be the reason why mine is walkable and his isn't.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-10-2003, 01:40 PM
Getting one machined with multiple holes to test all the different locations would be great, which is why I was yelling till I was blue in the face way back that AGD should look into this, if just for kicks. I just don't have the fabrication ability or tools to do this. For those familiar with the type of bell curve present when adjusting pressure for cockers and the affect on velocity, the idea is to find just the spot where the pressure is no longer proving to be a benefit to the velocity and this is where to set it. Very efficient there. With this mod, it would involve setting it at a point, measuring the pull weight and the pull length at the set operating pressure to fire at 280-300fps (probably 280 or 290 would make sense). These values can be graphed in a few ways:

pin hole's radius from pivot (x)
vs
(new pull weight % change/new pull distance % change)

what this means is compare the radius to a pull that got 20% heavier (1.2) divided by the distance that got 20% shorter. 1.2/.8=1.5 If the weight had been only 10% more (1.1) and the pull a whopping 30% shorter (.7) the ratio would be 1.1/.7=1.57 and indicates a higher benefit. Finding the optimal location where the ratio peaks and is within an operable trigger pull weight (if it peaks at 10lbs that's a little too heavy, even if it was more efficient) and that is the ideal location to set the marker up at. I presume if a wide range of radii (plural?) have the same ratio, it's best to take the earliest one to maintain the lighter pull, since all would be optimal but just different balances.

The other would be weight (X) vs distance (Y) which would produce probably a downward sloping curve and finding the location of maximum vertical angle downward would be the optimal configuration of weight and pull to hit.

Any thoughts on all this guys?

By the way, the best way to spark interest in this is to include a link to it in your sig. I am going to add one and if people see enough of them elsewhere and go to the thread, it will help us find out if non-tinkerers want it available, as it is an AGD component only they should produce it since aftermarket would void all warranties, but it is the ultimate choice in customization with no ill effects.

luke
12-10-2003, 01:57 PM
I have a mill and the drill bits to do it, I just don't have an X-valve to try it out in. I do have two RT Valves, which eventually I'll get around to milling one of them to accept the new on off, I'm currently working on a few other things and don't have the time. (yet)

I've been watching this thread to see where it goes though, you guys are defiantly onto something here....

redlaser666
12-10-2003, 02:54 PM
I have another sear i will drill in a diferent spot or spots to see the diferent efects. I will post more as i progress.

Later,
Raul

PS. Good idea on the sig link!

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-10-2003, 05:41 PM
Thanks for the compliment on the sig idea, I think very few people look in Deep Blue and The Workshop so the idea hasn't expanded as much as it should. I frankly think it smokes the roller trigger idea and even the intellifeed (which with halo's you don't need) because:

1.) It offers a level of customization greater than even the ULE line. I love the new look for the Mag and think AGD has done great with it, but performance customization is something the mag has not had besides the XValve and the E-mag. This concept lets you change the feel of the mag to suit your preference, something cocker owners and most E-owners love (different magnets in Mags for example?). Offering 4 different sears, each with a different configuration, would allow the user to choose their trigger style and people who haven't bought a mag for how the trigger feels may reconsider with this. PBall players want performance customizations, look how the cocker has survived the years offering them. This is AGD's chance. I think the sear is the one part that has never really evolved. The way they're selling custom to your design mags now, this would be the perfect addition. "Customize the pull style to your desire, no extra cost!"

2.) I stressed it before: You can't reliably walk the trigger of a ULT so why does it need to be so light? It's great but not absolutely needed. I think sacrificing a little of the lightness in exchange for less pull and WAY less chuffing is something everyone will love if they tried it. I haven't heard any of you who have done this so far say you preferred how it used to be.

3.) This one I am not sure on, but if the ULT can evolve even further to have a thinner pin (but greater support to compensate for the thin metal) then maybe it can get down to 10oz pull/30oz return which may cause more chuffing on its own and be a reason AGD didn't go that low, but if a .50 adjustment (which I refer to it now, meaning 50% more pull weight, 50% less pull distance) is done, it would make it 15oz/45oz as it is now and have a 50% shorter pull distance. If theoretical=actual (meaning it works) why the hell would AGD not do it? THAT would be a pull like an electro, which the ULT is not yet. I'd get a Mag again if I could do that.

4.) It's inexpensive and can be fabricated off existing sears. It wouldn't involve major investment and is tourney legal, which the roller trigger wasn't and is simply "drop in and use." The roller involved drilling your trigger.

These are my 4 selling points, those who have tried it by all means add to them. Anyone new reading this, voice your opinion, it is very welcome as long as it is not retarded flaming and such.

Wrathchild
12-10-2003, 07:47 PM
What kind of metal is the sear made out of? My father is a Tig/Mig welder for Delphi Automotive. Since I have 4 extra sear sitting around my house, i am thinking about having his seal the hole that AGD drilled up and have him start drilling holes in .125" intervals from the very bottom of the sear almost to the top of the sear(.125 between each hole)...

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-10-2003, 07:57 PM
Let me put the disclaimer for AGD:

Any modification to the sear would void your warranty with AGD, yadda yadda yadda.... so don't do it unless you're sure you're not going to do something that you'll regret.... now if a tree falls in a forest and no one hears it, it doesn't void a warranty. Or close to that because if you're careful in modding a sear or two and they don't have ill effects you're all set. Something like that.

I believe it's a hardened steel which is treated so definitely be careful. Filing a sear breaks through this sealant and weakens it greatly, but a new hole being drilled shouldn't risk early wear.

At a certain point you will find you're pushing straight towards the fulcrum and because of that it won't fire. I have an idea I included somewhere regarding the sear fulcrum being half as long but then going at a 90 degree angle pointed toward the back and then a little further. Same radius, but would allow movement. But your idea would be a great way to test it.

redlaser666
12-10-2003, 08:59 PM
The sear is very hard!!! I could only drill it with a carbide pcboard drill bit at 20000rpm.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-10-2003, 09:45 PM
Yup, extremely hard. I took it to a metal shop here in Quincy, MA and they couldn't do a thing with it. They didn't have the right drills or bits. Of course the idiot did a "test" by filing it square in the middle and I basically stood there with an odd look on my face because I knew I might as well not stop him because he had already rendered it useless. That sear never made it back into my mag, I didn't want to risk it, but that goes to show the difference between people used to working on more crude machinery parts and more precision machinery parts like the sear is.

One thing that may be required in all of this for smooth operation is a trigger with an angled back to push the rod in the same manner as the trigger pushes it now. The important part though is to keep the point that is pushing the sear the same radius from the pivot and keep an identical angle to how it now moves. It's easier to show than explain, check out my old, old thread on this topic to see what I mean, I did a ton of images in it. I really wish I knew of Destructive Customs before I traded my mag, I might have held onto it longer to have them fabricate a trigger and mod the sear. They probably would have done a hell of a job.

And major props to Zyperion for making a strong effort to help further the knowledge of this project I started for the sole purpose of helping AGD. I always like to see promotion done in a positive, creative manner and he definitely did that. Also thanks to Kevmaster, not sure if he remembers but he's helped me out on alot of my little tinkering-fits that have produced ideas like these, he's a great guy and knows his stuff. And although I understand that by the rules the thread needed to be closed in PBTalk due to the rules, notice it took someone at AGD less than an hour to close Zyperion's thread when the pointless, bandwidth-soaking "I got this stuck in/on/to that" threads go for way longer? Interesting... I'm waiting to see if they choose to edit his #2 for the Predictions for 2004 although I doubt they will. And Gunga, yeah it's old because it's a good idea and gradually more people are interested in it. That's what's kept the thread alive.

luke
12-11-2003, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Wrathchild
What kind of metal is the sear made out of? My father is a Tig/Mig welder for Delphi Automotive. Since I have 4 extra sear sitting around my house, i am thinking about having his seal the hole that AGD drilled up and have him start drilling holes in .125" intervals from the very bottom of the sear almost to the top of the sear(.125 between each hole)...

I don't think there is any reason to close-up the existing hole. Even though a T.I.G. doesn't produce much heat I wouldn't risk heating the thing up, if you do it will take some of the hardness out of it.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-11-2003, 12:56 PM
Definitely don't heat the whole thing, it could really lose it's structural stability.

Hey guys, thank you all for the input, please continue but also get everyone you know to contribute, I want to do all I can to get this idea either pushed forward or get enough input to have a reason to stop. You guys are the thinkers around here, but we need to break the AO Zombie "If Tom didn't come up with it, it can't be good" mentality and have this be really stress-tested and troubleshot. I refuse to let it be a Superbolt I.

luke
12-11-2003, 02:31 PM
QMG,
What interval would you suggest drilling the holes at, and how many? (Centerline to Centerline)

redlaser666
12-11-2003, 03:55 PM
I would imagine having as many as posible and as closely spaced as practical so you can test out diferent posibilities. A good start is to drill 3 holes .1" apart from the original and each other. This would give you a .1", .2" and .3" spot to test out.

Mine is currently at .25" and i like it very much there, i will try a diferent spot next week.

ZyperioN
12-11-2003, 05:25 PM
To support this thread, copy and paste this into your sig.
YOU MUST DELETE ALL OF THE "*" FOR IT TO WORK CORRECTLY, THERE ARE 4 TOTAL!!!!

<*A HREF="http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=1178858#post1178858"><*B>The next evolution of the Mag sear? Take a look and voice your opinion!<*/B><*/A>

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-11-2003, 05:49 PM
Luke, great question and if I remember correctly, you are skilled at fabrication with items such as this so your production would be a great asset to this project.

I would suggest keeping the original hole and spacing them in intervals maybe a little less than the difference between the bottom of the sear fulcrum and the closest edge of the hole in the current sear. Structural integrity is the issue here. But I would also not recommend going too high as you will quickly find the motion will be directly aimed at the pivot and not function. I have been brainstorming this more and more, and the way I can picture this working is for the fulcrum to go down to 3/4 the way it now does then curve like an oddly shaped candy cane to the back, so the radius can be decreased but so it doesn't impede the functionality of the sear (needs a certain amount of push and direction too so it doesn't push at an odd angle.

I have been curious as to what a 90 degree change halfway down the fulcrum would yield, but for now I urge everyone to NOT try this part, as it would involve massive restructuring of the sear and not just a hole. This risks functionality problems and I definitely think more physics and knowledge of the fine details of the sear travel need to be addressed. However, as long as the arm connects to the rest of the sear at the same location and allows proper movement, it should be fine and will hopefully yield results in the near future. May even make the pull consistent from the very beginning to the very end, which would allow for a spring to be placed on the trigger front, applying pre-pressure so the pull is lighter and utilizing the 3X force pushback the retro provides to easily overcome the spring force and allow quick and effective reset. Imagine a 4oz pull. Chilling. We ran into a problem with the end of the forward momentum not being enough though and the trigger/sear not properly resetting. Back to the drawing board!

Thanks again for all your support, I'd love to see this become a reality and help AGD, a company I respect.

Big'n slo
12-12-2003, 11:31 AM
QUINCYMASSGUY,

I quickly sketched the sear with the changes you described, modifying the original with added holes.
Unfortunately, I don't have a sear to pull exact measurements from at work. So this sketch is from a pic of the sear in the AGD store.



http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/Pics/sear-Model.jpg

And I think this is what you described for the modified sear.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/Pics/sear-Model1.jpg

In the first pic it looks like the further up you connect the sear rod the harder the angle between the rotational movement of the sear and the direction of force applied to the rod. Which, I assume would increase pull weight exponentially.

With the second design, the rotational movement and the direction of force are aligned, which should decrease the pull weight.

I'll pull dimensions of my sear later and will be able to tell what the actual pull distance's are depending on rod placement.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-12-2003, 01:26 PM
Can't post much right now, but the second is exactly what I was talking about, good job. In the first, if you used the higher holes the pin would push right at the pivot which would not work.

68 Mag
12-12-2003, 09:19 PM
Hmm.

I've watched this for a while now, and I'm finally tossing my goggles in the ring.

Tommorrow, I'll try and swing by the machine shop and get some holes drilled. I'm thinking drill them in increments of .5 from .10 to perhaps .30. I.E. .10, .15, .20, .25, and .30. I'm not looking at my sear assembly right now, but isnt the trigger rod pivot a rivet- style connector? That might be a bit difficult to re-locate on a normal basis. For example, with an RT valve, set it to .30 for rec play and allow the trigger to bounce, but perhaps move the rod to .15 for tournaments, ensuring there isnt any bounce.

I've not done the math to claim that it will or wont bounce at those positions, that's just an example. perhaps just threading the trigger rod yoke for a small screw would do it.

I'll let you know how it turns out...

Gunga
12-13-2003, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Big'n slo
I quickly sketched the sear with the changes you described, modifying the original with added holes.
Unfortunately, I don't have a sear to pull exact measurements from at work. So this sketch is from a pic of the sear in the AGD store.

And I think this is what you described for the modified sear.

http://home.comcast.net/~jeffreykier/Pics/sear-Model1.jpg

With the second design, the rotational movement and the direction of force are aligned, which should decrease the pull weight.

I'll pull dimensions of my sear later and will be able to tell what the actual pull distance's are depending on rod placement.

Why not just use an E-Mag sear? The location of the vertical portion of the sear is pretty damn close to what you've got in your second drawing.

Of course, you'd have to try this out on an RT Pro, E-Mag, or X-Mag.

http://store.airgun.com/agdprod/images/parts/Searassy_lg.jpg

redlaser666
12-14-2003, 12:21 AM
Actualy his sugestion would be to have the arm facing the oposite direction as in the e-mag sear, just below the pivot point.

BTW. I tried out the modified Micromag today at the field, in 1/2 a case that i put trough I only chuffed 2 balls without any adverse efect (using PMI Premiums with a 14" AA). I was constantly shooting stings at around 13-14bps (my loader was running dry very quickly).

So far so good! I will try a higher spot next week and see how that goes.

Later,
Raul

Gunga
12-14-2003, 01:34 AM
Guess I didn't make myself clear enough. As they say, a picture is worth a thousand words...

http://www.automags.org/~Gunga/Sear-overlay.jpg

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-14-2003, 05:19 AM
Gunga, I definitely welcome you to this convo, you are without a doubt an asset to this discussion and please continue to contribute, we would all appreciate it. I guess my question is how an emag sear would benefit, I am aware of how it differs from a normal sear and I guess the issue would be how it could be used in a mechanical setting, the extra arm wouldn't be in the same position and the leverage wouldn't reduce the pull.

Please by all means elaborate, we'd love to have your input, but from the images you provided the EMag and modded sears distance from the pivot seem totally distant, and the angle of the emag sear only seems to be a benefit if it's the noid powering it, a normal trigger wouldn't be able to use it. Redlaser666's results seem VERY positive towards the type of results we were aiming for, I guess it's not a fully customizable sear we're hoping for but one that allows a harder, shorter pull. If Tom is waiting for the one-year point for this idea to go beyond the point where it can be patented, thats cool, but this is definitely something people are interested in.

the electrician
12-14-2003, 10:47 AM
alright,
explain something to me.
the ULE on/off is supposed to make the trigger feel lighter right?

so by putting the hole closer to the pivot point, is'nt that going to make the trigger feel stiffer again?

the electrician
12-14-2003, 11:07 AM
okay, please accept my appologies. I went through and re-read the whole thread. it's been awhile.

now the trigger has a pivot point, and the sear does too.
you guys are changing the rod connection point to be closer to the sear pivot point. but the point where the rod hits the trigger, stays in the same place? or does it start to angle down slightly? the down ward angle contributes to the trigge being a bit shorter, but stiffer?

what if you modified the grip frame to allow the trigger rod to angle down and hit the trigger in a lower place than what it does normally, instead of re-drilling the attachment hole? I wonder what affect this would have? it would most likely be easier for those who don't have access to a drill press and some carbide or cobalt bits.

that's the other thing. I suggest using cobalt bits to drill the hole. much cheaper than carbide. you can buy 5 cobaly bits of the same size and change them out when one starts getting dull. I've found that you can drill sears much faster that way. with lots of oil of course.

redlaser666
12-14-2003, 11:14 AM
Gunga thanks for clarifying your idea. If you were to cut the solenoid arm from the sear and take out the brass bushing you could probably use the remaining part in a normal mag.

the electrician: Yes the ult does soften the pull, but since it doesnt shorten it, it is very easy to shortstroke (chuff) because of the loss in reactivity as well. The idea of this proyect is to alow for a shorter trigger pull, but since we are using the ULT the force needed to actuate the sear is still a lot less than in the original trigger.

On my setup right now the force needed to pull the trigger is less than half of what it was originaly and the pull is also a lot less (about 20%-30% less).

the electrician
12-14-2003, 12:03 PM
are you using this on a standard mag with a standard valve?

does the ULE slow the recharge rate of the valve? a noticeable amount?

perhaps a trigger backstop would be a good additon to this mod? only letting the pin go up enough to seal off the chamber and no more. and keeping you from having to pull the trigger unneededly farther.

Gunga
12-14-2003, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by redlaser666
If you were to cut the solenoid arm from the sear and take out the brass bushing you could probably use the remaining part in a normal mag.

You could cut off the solenoid arm (which I was assuming), but you'd have to leave the bushing in and use it in an RT/RT Pro/E-Mag. If you remove the bushing, the hole is a lot larger than the hole in an automag sear.

http://www.automags.org/~Gunga/Sear-overlay2.jpg

Also, the trigger rod for an E-Mag sear is a lot longer than the one for the other guns, since the trigger rod arm is further back than on other sears. The clevis is the same, so all you'd have to replace is the trigger rod.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-14-2003, 02:20 PM
Yes, the solenoid arm would definitely need to be removed but Gunga is making a good point with using the emag trigger rod. I guess if it ever was produced we could use the original sear design but utilize emag sear pins because due to the angle I believe we would definitely need a longer trigger rod.

Gunga, from your discussions with Tom and such, would it have been possible to have made the ULT with even lighter pull/lighter reactivity? It seems it's all about the relationship between the surface area on top and below the on/off pin head and if a thinner shaft or same size shaft/wider head could result in the ULT going down to 10oz or so with the obvious problem of the retro effect being weaker, which this mod would increase. Thoughts on that? Thanks again for contributing, it is the involvement of AGD pro's such as yourself that will help prove or disprove the benefits/interest in this mod.

Electrician, I am not so sure on the classic, I think no matter what, that AGD's intent is to make the Xvalve the standard to the point that they are looking to release one that is compatible with CO2. Not sure of the status on that. But the retro effect is also a big part of avoiding chuffs so even with this shorter pull I think it'd be best to avoid the classic valves. And in regards to the pivot points, that is one reason for the extension I sketched on my other thread, if a new extension extended at a 45 degree angle back towards the inside of the trigger frame it would allow the same direction of push on the trigger rod and it would be important to have the point of contact be the same. And you're right, if inside of frame was sanded so the rod could connect at a lower point on the trigger, possibly also utilizing the 45 degree "ledge" it should have a similar result, but I think the sear mod offers more promise. A trigger backstop like the WGP Cam Adjuster would be be very beneficial, it is the front movement that risks damage to the sear but the biggest problem with the rear movement being limited is the gun won't fire. With a cam adjuster, if that is happening then you just go with the next longer setting. Great idea though.

redlaser666
12-14-2003, 09:31 PM
I do have a back stop setscrew on my intellyframe, the only disadvantage is that since it is fixed i have to use a screwdriver to push the rod all the way back to remove the valve. A cam adjuster would be better in that sense, but as in cockers it would eliminate the safety.

the electrician
12-14-2003, 11:28 PM
I just put a set screw in the frame. that way you tweak it to where you want it. no cam needed.

redlaser666
12-15-2003, 01:42 AM
I have a setscrew in the frame.

Joni
12-15-2003, 05:54 AM
What do you think about combining this mod with the spring mod I read about in another thread? They were talking about putting constant spring pressure on the sear, so that it would be a lighter trigger pull. The concern is that the on/off might turn into a regulator. My thougt is that maybe you could use that thougt with the shorter trigger pull mod, just add a little pressure to compensate for the harder trigger pull. Maybe someone who has drilled their sear could try it out? An easy way to test if its you just put a rubber band around your trigger, an see if you can get any noticeable effect while the function is not degraded.
Just an idea, and I have no idea if it'l work. I'd test it myself, but I have neither X-valve or ULT.

Big'n slo
12-15-2003, 09:02 AM
Originally posted by Gunga


Also, the trigger rod for an E-Mag sear is a lot longer than the one for the other guns, since the trigger rod arm is further back than on other sears. The clevis is the same, so all you'd have to replace is the trigger rod.


Arrgh,
I must have spent 4 hours modifying the sear connection point and turning down and threading a drill bit to extend the trigger rod. I could have gone and picked up an emag sear in half the time.
Anyways, I modified a standard sear by bending the original fulcrum arm back under the pivot point, then found that the trigger rod was too short. Unfortunately by the time I finished the rod I had some spiked eggnog to attend too, so no testing was done. Hopefully this week I'll have more time to play.

Joni,
From what I've read, the mag trigger must have a slight swing before contacting the trigger rod otherwise it effects the on/off.

Joni
12-15-2003, 09:24 PM
What do you think about this idea? This piece would slide on the sear, locking it with a set screw, making the trigger pull fully adjustable. It would also put the rod further back. If someone could make something like this, combined with a new rod it would be a drop in mod.

http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~paananen/sear-model.jpg

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-15-2003, 10:07 PM
Not a bad idea, but I originally thought that up and I think it really risks the possibility of not being tight enough and sliding causing all sorts of issues. Plus for the different angles the pin needs to be changed and that opens all sorts of issues. But who knows, it could be the solution!

Big'n slo
12-15-2003, 11:16 PM
It would also have to be very thin to allow the sear to pivot in the rail, I think about an 1/8" of the fulcrum arm is in the rail so it would have to stay below that.

Joni
12-16-2003, 04:42 AM
I just had an idea, and I dont have my mag here right now, so I couldnt really see if it was doable. Maybe if someone could take this idea and enhance it, it would mean you could try this mod without drilling your sear.

than205
12-20-2003, 07:21 PM
Or you could take Joni's idea (part) and flip it over.
Then there shouldn't be a problem.

SPY 1
12-21-2003, 02:58 PM
I think you guy's are very close to realizing this mod keep it up. I have been following up on this. I hope u guy's can make it happen.

QUINCYMASSGUY
12-21-2003, 10:44 PM
The idea is pretty much polished, I think it's how much interest in it that has me worried. We have a handful sounding interested but alot of others seem to believe lighter and longer is better than shorter and harder (oh, the amount vulgar jokes that can stem from that remark is staggering....). No matter what, the customers drive the market, and I guess what remains to be seen is if the ULT can be made even lighter at the expense of reactivity (aka more risk of chuffs) because this will counteract it and let the shorter pull remain. And I don't have the means to properly put the R+D into it, I wish I did.

Mateo
12-25-2003, 06:26 PM
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-12/561028/sear-model2withmountingbracket.JPG


Or better yet you could on the other design drill holes so the screw goes through the sear. Either one.

I would go ahead and fabricate a system like this for testing so it wouldn't cost so much buying sears all the time. Instead you can just switch out the main part that your testing your theories by making it out of heck aluminum or steel, or heck cast iron if you wanted. Then once you find the winning design, go ahead and make it one solid product...Or also you gotta look at the customibilty of a mounting system. People can customize their gun to their tastes, either having a long light pull, or a stiffer incredibly short pull, and that option of customiblity can make the mag a tuner gun like the cocker, impulse, etc.

redlaser666
12-25-2003, 09:13 PM
I think this idea is exelent! i will try to mod a sear like this and post results later.

Dueydog
12-30-2003, 03:10 PM
Hey guys,
I too have just installed the ULT and chuff a lot. One thing that helped was placing a little rubber glass table top bumper between the inteliframe and the trigger. Stops the trigger in half the distance, creating control and reducing chuffing. I would love to see the ULT walk and AGD create a new sear to promote this.
Good luck,
Matt

redlaser666
12-30-2003, 10:42 PM
Welcome to the discussion!
The rubber bumper you are using is acting like a trigger stop, that is non-adjustable.

BTW if you or any body else wants to try this mod out you can contact me by PM and i will mod your sear or send you a modded one.

QUINCYMASSGUY
01-06-2004, 12:59 AM
OK guys, I've been MIA for a while, cooking up another idea that could be pretty sick, but had one related to this: What would the effect be if the bottom of the ULT on/off pin was concave? Would the curved bottom result in increased surface area with the net vertical force applied by the air pressure being greater than that of the flat surface? It seems the key reason the pull is 15oz is because the pin takes up a certain amount of surface area on the bottom of the pin, resulting in the pull weight. If the concave bottom resulted in the pull dropped to 5oz (maybe a little too optimistic) then the decrease in pull/increase in weight would be offset and you'd get the best of both worlds. I could see a reason why this hasn't been explored yet being that a 5oz pull might not allow enough return, hence massive chuffing. Then again, I could be wrong and a concave bottom could actually reduce vertical force and would be a hindrance. Thoughts?

Dayspring
01-06-2004, 01:54 AM
They can't make the shaft any thinner b/c they don't make an oring small enough to seal aorund it. As it is, it's 10 human hairs thick/thin.

Can't make the pin top bigger, runaway.


(Said by Tom at AGD Tech Class- IAO '03)


Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
Gunga, from your discussions with Tom and such, would it have been possible to have made the ULT with even lighter pull/lighter reactivity? It seems it's all about the relationship between the surface area on top and below the on/off pin head and if a thinner shaft or same size shaft/wider head could result in the ULT going down to 10oz or so with the obvious problem of the retro effect being weaker, which this mod would increase. Thoughts on that? Thanks again for contributing, it is the involvement of AGD pro's such as yourself that will help prove or disprove the benefits/interest in this mod.

Dayspring
01-06-2004, 01:56 AM
It has to do with the contact surface area. If you do a concave surface, only the perimeter of the pin would contact. REALLY light, but not enough punch to return the trigger.


Originally posted by QUINCYMASSGUY
OK guys, I've been MIA for a while, cooking up another idea that could be pretty sick, but had one related to this: What would the effect be if the bottom of the ULT on/off pin was concave? Would the curved bottom result in increased surface area with the net vertical force applied by the air pressure being greater than that of the flat surface? It seems the key reason the pull is 15oz is because the pin takes up a certain amount of surface area on the bottom of the pin, resulting in the pull weight. If the concave bottom resulted in the pull dropped to 5oz (maybe a little too optimistic) then the decrease in pull/increase in weight would be offset and you'd get the best of both worlds. I could see a reason why this hasn't been explored yet being that a 5oz pull might not allow enough return, hence massive chuffing. Then again, I could be wrong and a concave bottom could actually reduce vertical force and would be a hindrance. Thoughts?

QUINCYMASSGUY
01-06-2004, 02:20 AM
Dayspring, I am not sure if I am misunderstanding your info or if you slightly misunderstood the info I was giving. The situation I was thinking was that the BOTTOM becomes concave, leaving the pin the same diameter and using the same oring, and since the perimeter would stay the same, it would seal the same, but as the bottom is concave it would change the nature of the physics forces pressing against the bottom. The question is, whether it would drop the pull weight or increase it.

I guess this leads to two other possibilities and how they would affect it

2.) What if the top was made concave (so it dips in the center, not the other way)? If concaving the bottom results in less push against the surface area then maybe using it on top to reduce it could help.

or

3.) what if a pin SLIGHTLY smaller in diameter than the ULT pin was used on top (basically going through the space where the air travels) with an oring sealing it on top? This would make the balance between top and bottom surface area much closer.


I definitely need to find that resource of the specific functionality of the on/off and more specifically the ULT to figure out what can be adjusted.

Dayspring, what were you talking about the punch to return? You mean that this COULD work but that in the process lightening the pull so much could result in pin stick basically? I guess that would be the next bottleneck to figure out... If idea 3.) was utilized, thicker pins could be used on top and bottom just as long as the balance is VERY close, but would having a bigger pin allow a wider oring that is urethane and reduce friction that could allow the lighter weight/lighter return? Back to the lab :)

Dayspring
01-06-2004, 10:34 AM
You misunderstood mine.

The first post was in regards to you saying that you wanted a thinner shaft. So no, can't do that.

The second one was in regards to the concave pin bottom. The problem here is that you need the full contact face of the ULT pin to reset the sear. By reducing the amount of surface contact, you are reducing the amount of force that it can exert on the sear.

And you don't want to get into the realm of making things bigger or smaller on that pin system. If you stray from standard oring sizes, you get into the realm of custom orings and we all know that those give you problems- AKA- Flatline reg seats.

Lastly- the whole concave thing is going to add more and more time to the contstruction of the pin and can add to more cost to the customer.

It was a nice idea, but I don't think it'll work the way you want it to.

SlartyBartFast
01-06-2004, 11:37 AM
Changing the bottom face of the pin would have no effect what-so-ever on the force exerted by the pin on the sear. The only difference flat, concave, or convex pin ends would have is to affect the mechanical interaction between the sear and the pin.

As the sear is already rounded, a flat pin is acceptable. If the surface of the sear contacting the pin were flat, a convex pin end may be necessary to avoid the pin and sear binding.

If the sear is convex/rounded, all rounding the pin will do is change the contact area.

Think of it this way:

Say you're supporting 10lb on a post atop a scale.
Say the post has a 2 square inch cross section.

The force on the top of the post is 10lb.
The pressure on the bottom of the post is 5psi.
The force reading on the scale is 10lb.

Now say you reduce the contact area of the post on the scale to 1 square inch.

The force on the top of the post remains 10lb.
The pressure on the bottom of the post increases to 10psi.
The force reading on the scale remains 10lb.

The only way to reduce the force required to support/lift the post is to reduce the force/weight on top of the post.

It's just that with the on/off pin, the force isn't a weight. It's a pressure. The force on top of the on/off pin is the product of the pressure above the pin, multiplied by the pin's cross sectional area. The top of the pin can have any shape you want. The shape will not affect the force on the pin in any way. The only effect the pin top shape will have is how easily/smoothly the pin inserts into the o-ring the pin is to seal against.

The only way to change the force on the pin is to change the diameter. And has said before, you want to stick to standard sizes.

Dayspring
01-06-2004, 11:42 AM
Tom said they tried a bigger head pin (the next bigger oring size) with the ULT but it would run away on them.

tarkus
01-12-2004, 03:37 PM
Any updates on this one?

I've been working on it also, but not ready yet.

QUINCYMASSGUY
01-13-2004, 12:31 PM
Hola man, glad to see another interested in this.

The general consensus is that the majority prefer lighter and longer than heavier and shorter. I still think a 20% shorter/heavier pull would be better but most of us do not have the utilities to properly R+D it. The current questions remain:

1.) Is it always a straight 1-to-1 tradeoff, or does a curved exchange exist where the benefits gained exceed those lost?

2.) Could any change be made to another part of the mag configuration to compensate for the increased weight, reducing it to its normal level without taking away the benefit of shorter pull. Some thoughts on the ULT have been batted around, nothing solid yet. I thought of a spring to preload, pushing against the trigger to drop weight needed for the pull (the retro effect would overcome the weight to allow proper reset) but that blew up too.


On an interesting note, I will be looking to apply this idea to my Merlin (autococker for those who have no idea what a Merlin is, I didn't till I got one). By changing the trigger/sear ratios and possibly the spring too, I may find a way to make the sear fire earlier and therefore be able to move the point where the 3-way needs to be activated to an earlier point in the pull, hence shortening the pull. I think it will involve having the trigger contact the sear closer to the sear's pivot point. We shall see, and thoughts on this one as well, not just the mag sear idea, would be valued.

redlaser666
03-19-2004, 07:38 PM
Well it has been about 4 months since i did this mod to my sear and it is still as good as new. No abnormal wear detected. I havent chuffed in a long time and the marker has been working perfectly with just a little bit of oil before every day i go out to play.

I have done this mod to several members of this board and the have reported good results also.

If anyone else is interested in this mod I do it for free, so feel free to PM or e-mail me about it.

OysterBoy
07-02-2004, 12:12 AM
Hmm, wonder how it would work with stock on/off in a classic.. lol

OysterBoy
07-02-2004, 12:15 AM
What do you think about this idea? This piece would slide on the sear, locking it with a set screw, making the trigger pull fully adjustable. It would also put the rod further back. If someone could make something like this, combined with a new rod it would be a drop in mod.

http://www.dtek.chalmers.se/~paananen/sear-model.jpg


Joni, I'm sorry if this has been posted but here is a way to make it quite adjustable without any accidents..

sam design you have, except several circle cut-outs running down the sear, then you have a screw and nut that go on either side.. get what Im sayin?

I can post a pic if you dont get it.

redlaser666
07-02-2004, 10:07 AM
The only problem i have found with making the mod adjustable is the fact that you limit the movement of the sear rod with those kinds of devices.

I have found the best performance to come from drilling to .17" from the original hole. It gives a short pull and the increase in pull weight isnt that noticiable. I can walk my ult!

luke
08-31-2004, 09:22 AM
redlaser666,

You say that .170 has given you the best performance, how much higher have you tried the mod?

Also, is the measurement centerline to centerline?

redlaser666
08-31-2004, 11:04 AM
I have gone up to .20 which was a bit too stiff to walk. Measurement is center to center.

luke
08-31-2004, 11:36 AM
Thanks! :cool:

rav3nware
10-02-2004, 01:04 PM
Ok, dumb question here, but what sear does the X-valve use? I'd like to try this mod out, but I'm going to buy an extra sear to do it on in case I jack it up :D There's 3 different sears on the parts page, need to know which one to buy.

luke
10-02-2004, 06:51 PM
Depends on the gun you have. Match whats in your gun..... :)

I just did 2 this past week, I also added 2 trigger stops in order to adjust the trigger in both directions and also added my on version of the roller trigger. :cool: (Haven't seen one done this way yet) :eek:

rav3nware
10-02-2004, 10:49 PM
Red says he doesn't have time to do the sear mod for people anymore, is there anyone else that still does it? I'd try it myself, but I don't have access to a drill press. If there's anyone out there still doing this mod lemme know, I'll be happy to order a sear sent to you and pay for shipping afterwards!

luke
10-03-2004, 10:05 AM
rav3nware,

I can this for you.

Actually it's a service (along with others) I'll be offering threw the dealer forum soon, but I can do yours now if your ready.

It's not necessary to buy a new sear to do this mod though, If you don't like it for some reason just move the rod back to it's original location.

To get the full benafit from this mod I can also do a double trigger stop mod for you. This way you can adjust out unnecessary space (forwards and backwards) in the trigger.


If your interested PM me and we'll work out the details..... :bounce:

QUINCYMASSGUY
10-09-2004, 10:21 PM
Just taking a stroll back in the world of AO since my retirement from paintball and it's good to see the idea Jack and Coke and I came up with at the same time way back in the day is still getting interest.... :)

Jack & Coke
10-10-2004, 02:04 AM
wow... nice to have those little email alerts:)

I've been out of pb too for a little bit (family with 1 more in the oven).

Hope all is well with you guys!

busy busy busy... :)

jewie27
03-08-2005, 08:16 PM
What's the trigger pressure of:

1. stock sear + RT on/off

2. stock sear + ULT?

how many ounces or pounds?

thanks

Stock sear/stock on/off: 3lbs
stock sear + ULT = 15 ounces

Thorno
11-29-2005, 10:38 PM
Luke,
I will be ordering your mod shortly most likely but first i wanted to know if it will damage or wear any part of my gun. Will I have to go buy a new lvl 10 bolt every month or year if I use this mod or replace any parts regularly from using this product? After extensive use will the trigger stop catching the sear entirely? What kind of problems can I expect to have from using this gun in general?
Thanks and please PM me back,
-Roger B.

luke
11-30-2005, 09:15 AM
No.

The only thing that changes is where the rod attaches to the sear, which shortens the pull length. No mods are done to the sear catch. You would be surprised how many of these mods are out there, there has been ZERO reported problems. :)

Wizzman
03-09-2006, 02:25 AM
I thought it was stated that trigger stops are not good for mags because of the wear that is related to it?

bentothejam1n
03-11-2006, 02:45 PM
Not sure if i should ask you this in an email luke but would getting your sear mod make any differences in a pnuemag mod?

luke
03-11-2006, 05:18 PM
Not sure if i should ask you this in an email luke but would getting your sear mod make any differences in a pnuemag mod?

No, it won't...

Newt
06-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Hey Luke,

What distance are you using for this mod right now? 0.170"?

I'm adding this to my long term mod list (first I have to get a modern valve). Any chance there's still pictures of this mod around? All the pictures from when this thread started in '03 are dead and gone.

Hooray Necroposting!

redlaser666
06-23-2009, 03:49 AM
Darn , I didnt even know this thread was still alive, but when I did this mod a looooongggg time ago that was about the right distance for it (.17" center to center) remeber to use carbide drills.