ALL ASTM Team

[Looper]

We need to ask the questions and get answers.
But alas NO ONE is ASKING the Questions.

[Lohman446]

Its going to have to fall on a sanctioning body. For instance in baseball / softball you cannot use a bat without the ASA stamp on it indicating it meets a certain relevant criteria of safety standards. If WE demanded tournaments that met some certain standards (American Paintball Association or whatever) and required manufacturers to meet and be certified to those standards (stamp on every marker / case of paint / headgear) we could do it. However, noone is even raising safety questions anymore, and we are going to wait until we have proven we cannot police ourselves and let the government do it. I'm sorry, but with noone meeting ANY published and accepted safety standards we are leaving the door open for both criminal and civil penalties.

[Beemer]

I can live within ATSM standards. The question becomes can such a team compete at a high level without cheating?

No, the question becomes can such a team compete at a high level and WIN without cheating? We can and did compete at a high level without cheating. We can and did compete and win at a high level without cheating. Except for the ten percent rule.

Its a contradiction. On our ten man team the ten percent rule says one of us was cheating.

We knew we were getting cheated on more then that by other teams. So ya I see your point.

I cant change the poll now but it should say.........Can an all ASTM Team that doesnt cheat compete and win? I would still say yes. Comming off the field[losing] knowing WE didnt cheat and they did, makes us the winners.

The fun is in playing the GAME not the win and there in lies the problem with paintball today.

If you practice to beat the cheats it can be done with good strategy and tactics without cheating.

[Lohman446]

No, the question becomes can such a team compete at a high level and WIN without cheating? We can and did compete at a high level without cheating. We can and did compete and win at a high level without cheating. Except for the ten percent rule.

Its a contradiction. On our ten man team the ten percent rule says one of us was cheating.

We knew we were getting cheated on more then that by other teams. So ya I see your point.

I cant change the poll now but it should say.........Can an all ASTM Team that doesnt cheat compete and win? I would still say yes. Comming off the field[losing] knowing WE didnt cheat and they did, makes us the winners.

The fun is in playing the GAME not the win and there in lies the problem with paintball today.

If you practice to beat the cheats it can be done with good strategy and tactics without cheating.

You can and DID - and thats one of the key terms. Four years ago I would have said it could be done, it would have been harder but it could be done. Ten years ago I would have said cheating was the exception. But cheating is like a virus, and it spreads expodentially. Not counting the moral victory you cannot compete in todays high level paintball competitions and WIN consistantly without cheating. Most of the players at a high competetive level were brought in when learning wiping was part of learning the team, and a skill for public discussion and bragging. Of course there will be exceptions, but I am talking high level general paintball public tournaments.

[neppo1345]

No, the question becomes can such a team compete at a high level and WIN without cheating? We can and did compete at a high level without cheating. We can and did compete and win at a high level without cheating. Except for the ten percent rule.

Its a contradiction. On our ten man team the ten percent rule says one of us was cheating.

We knew we were getting cheated on more then that by other teams. So ya I see your point.

I cant change the poll now but it should say.........Can an all ASTM Team that doesnt cheat compete and win? I would still say yes. Comming off the field[losing] knowing WE didnt cheat and they did, makes us the winners.

The fun is in playing the GAME not the win and there in lies the problem with paintball today.

If you practice to beat the cheats it can be done with good strategy and tactics without cheating.

ITT: We read the USPL rules and note they call out ASTM standards for GOGGLES, GUNS, PAINT, BARREL BLOCKERS, ETC, ETC.

Therefore, all ASTM teams do compete at the highest level and win without cheating.

If your 10 man 'league' has something less in their rules then thats your choice to play in that league and you shouldn't complain.
If your 'field' has something less in their rules then that's your choice to play at that field and you shouldn't complain.

If you're playing USPL (or in another league with the same/similar rules), and using a gun, paint, goggles, barrel blocker that does not comply with ASTM standards, you are indeed cheating.

Therefore this entire argument reduces to:

"Can a team that's not cheating compete with a team that is cheating?"

The answer is obviously 'yes'; you answered it yourself.

I still fail to see the point of this thread.

EDIT: N.M.