Level 10 Springs - Gold Starts ~200 fps, Red Starts ~330 fps

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11-20-2021, 09:01 PM
nak81783

Level 10 Springs - Gold Starts ~200 fps, Red Starts ~330 fps

I've got an X-Valve with Level 10 and a Classic Valve with Level 10. Both Level 10s are newer production, purchased new this year - X-Valve from Tuna, Level 10 for Classic Valve from AGD.

The gold springs in both valves start shooting around 200 fps. By the time I get them up to 280 fps, they're not quite as gentle on paint as I would like. However, the red springs in both valves don't start shooting reliably until about 330 fps, so I can't use them as they are.

Is this normal nowadays? The four Level 10s I had in various markers in the mid- to late-2000s-ish would usually start shooting with the red spring around 250 fps. These older ones came with all the extra carriers and three springs - gold, red, gray.

I'll try cutting a red spring later a 1/4 coil or so at a time, but I wanted to hear what others are experiencing.

Both markers are otherwise healthy, to spec, and all AGD.
11-20-2021, 09:59 PM
BigEvil

Use a #0 carrier... and the red spring with a rung cut off
11-20-2021, 10:18 PM
nak81783

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigEvil

Use a #0 carrier... and the red spring with a rung cut off

I’ll give it a shot. That doesn’t give you bolt stick issues? I recall lots of bolt stick issues whenever I tried to run smaller than necessary carriers.
11-20-2021, 11:43 PM
BigEvil

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak81783

I’ll give it a shot. That doesn’t give you bolt stick issues? I recall lots of bolt stick issues whenever I tried to run smaller than necessary carriers.

I have #0 in literally ALL of my mags
11-21-2021, 08:04 PM
nak81783

No dice. Tried 1, 0.5, and 0 carriers in both markers with two red springs cut 1/4 coil at a time to -1 and -1.5 coils. The issue remains.

One other detail with the Classic with gold spring I noticed at the field on Saturday and confirmed today - the Classic limits out at about 265 fps. The slightest increase after that results in about 320 fps.

So:
1. I can’t run red springs in either marker, even when clipped up to -1.5 coils. This is about 1/2 coil longer than the gold spring.
2. I can’t get to 280 fps with the Classic even with the gold spring - replaced reg seat, reg piston (anticipating a leak with the old one when switching to Level 10), and thoroughly cleaned and re-greased reg spring pack.

That said, I don’t know the spring constants between the gold and red springs. If the red is higher, do I need to clip the red shorter than the gold?

Again, I never had to clip the red springs 15-ish years ago. Have the specs changed?
11-22-2021, 05:45 AM
vintage

have you checked your regulator pistons?
11-22-2021, 11:45 AM
nak81783

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintage

have you checked your regulator pistons?

Replaced the Classic reg piston with a new one from AGD when I installed the Level 10. I tried the old one for comparison; it does the same thing.

I have not replaced the X-Valve reg piston.
11-22-2021, 07:52 PM
nak81783

In search of a Classic regulator spring pack assembly. The one in this marker appears to be an old design or non-AGD. It's got loosely packed disc washers and a large flange on one end. I'm guessing between the 265 fps and 320 fps points described above, it just becomes a solid metal mass - no "springiness" left. I've contacted Tuna and Jake. Any other individuals I should contact?
11-23-2021, 07:06 AM
Tunaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak81783

In search of a Classic regulator spring pack assembly. The one in this marker appears to be an old design or non-AGD. It's got loosely packed disc washers and a large flange on one end. I'm guessing between the 265 fps and 320 fps points described above, it just becomes a solid metal mass - no "springiness" left. I've contacted Tuna and Jake. Any other individuals I should contact?

I have them. I will reply to your email
11-23-2021, 09:40 AM
nak81783

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tunaman

I have them. I will reply to your email

Payment sent. Thank you.
11-23-2021, 11:40 AM
BigEvil

Pow
11-23-2021, 02:39 PM
nak81783

For the X-Valve, I decided to just discard the existing o-rings, thoroughly clean everything, install new o-rings, oil the o-rings, and re-grease the regulator springs. Everything seemed to assemble/move much easier; i.e., not as tight of o-ring fits. It seems to now be shooting "mostly" reliably around 275 fps, and fully reliably in the 290-300 fps range, so that's more in line with what I'm used to.

For closure, I'll try to remember to post on the Classic with both gold and red springs after I install the new regulator spring pack assembly.
12-01-2021, 08:55 PM
nak81783

Classic regulator spring pack assembly arrived today. Classic problems resolved. Gold spring starts shooting around 200 fps, the red spring starts shooting around 250 fps, and I can tune velocity from 200 to over 300 fps. It no longer jumps from 265-ish to 330-ish.

For reference, here are the old and new Classic spring pack assemblies - old is left/bottom, new is right/top. Sorry for the poor picture orientations. Also, I should have flipped the new one 180 degrees in all of the pictures, so the common end between the two were oriented the same.

https://i.imgur.com/cmL0Qqj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bVFwGDc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/r5DRA9J.jpg

As for the X-Valve, I believe the reason I can't get the red spring to start shooting at 250 fps is because I'm getting some pretty bad first shot drop off. If the velocity with the gold spring (using the simulated rapid fire technique) is set at 265-280 fps, my first shot (without using rapid fire technique) varies quite a between two "groups". Sometimes it's 240-255 fps. Other times it's 205-220 fps. I think the former would be acceptable given the recharge rate, dump chamber cooling, etc. However, the latter seems excessive.

Apply these same spreads to the red spring, and I think it would explain why it won't start shooting around 250 fps. As previously posted, I've changed all o-rings, cleaned and lubed multiple times, and played with the torque on the field strip screw (wrench tight seems to be best).

I'm going to try swapping on/offs when time permits to see if the problem follows the on/off or stays with the valve. Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Nathan
12-02-2021, 07:45 AM
Tunaman

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak81783

Classic regulator spring pack assembly arrived today. Classic problems resolved. Gold spring starts shooting around 200 fps, the red spring starts shooting around 250 fps, and I can tune velocity from 200 to over 300 fps. It no longer jumps from 265-ish to 330-ish.

For reference, here are the old and new Classic spring pack assemblies - old is left/bottom, new is right/top. Sorry for the poor picture orientations. Also, I should have flipped the new one 180 degrees in all of the pictures, so the common end between the two were oriented the same.

https://i.imgur.com/cmL0Qqj.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bVFwGDc.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/r5DRA9J.jpg

As for the X-Valve, I believe the reason I can't get the red spring to start shooting at 250 fps is because I'm getting some pretty bad first shot drop off. If the velocity with the gold spring (using the simulated rapid fire technique) is set at 265-280 fps, my first shot (without using rapid fire technique) varies quite a between two "groups". Sometimes it's 240-255 fps. Other times it's 205-220 fps. I think the former would be acceptable given the recharge rate, dump chamber cooling, etc. However, the latter seems excessive.

Apply these same spreads to the red spring, and I think it would explain why it won't start shooting around 250 fps. As previously posted, I've changed all o-rings, cleaned and lubed multiple times, and played with the torque on the field strip screw (wrench tight seems to be best).

I'm going to try swapping on/offs when time permits to see if the problem follows the on/off or stays with the valve. Any other ideas?

Thanks,
Nathan

Make sure you are chroning the Xvalve correctly. Hold trigger back, fire shot and hold trigger back.
12-02-2021, 08:37 AM
nak81783

Thanks for the reply.

Yes, that’s the simulated rapid fire technique I mentioned. So the red spring will work if I hold trigger back on gas up, and fire quickly, but the minute I release the trigger for a bit, it won’t start shooting again.

I provided the gold spring velocity data to give an idea of the first shot drop off issue.

Again, I expect about 25 fps first shot drop off based on the recharge rate of the valve, gas cooling in dump chamber, etc., as it discusses in the manual. However, 60 fps seems excessive, and I think is giving me the problems running the red spring. I would hope the reg seat would open back up once the chamber pressure has dropped enough to result in a 60 fps drop. Something is sticking, which is why I’ve tried new orings, repeat cleanings, and liberal re-oilings.

I’ll post back with the on/off swap info. Aside from what I’ve already tried, there’s not much else I can do in the back half of the valve.
12-02-2021, 09:22 PM
nak81783

Swapping on/offs didn't help. The problem followed the X-Valve.
12-04-2021, 05:44 AM
vintage

have your swapped the level 10 parts between valves?
12-04-2021, 09:29 AM
nak81783

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintage

have your swapped the level 10 parts between valves?

Yes, I tried just about every combination of bolts, carrier sizes, same stem o-rings, new stem o-rings, etc. between the two Level 10 kits and valves.

Again, the Classic works fine. Now the issue is only first shot drop on the X-Valve. And I’d be fine with first shot around 250 fps with subsequent shots around 280 fps, but those occasional first shots in the low 200s are foreign to me. Sometimes that first shot is all you get.
12-18-2021, 08:12 PM
Sandman

Just browsing and saw this thread.
I don't recall seeing what kind of output pressure from your supply tank you are working with? and what kind of regulator is on it?
You're sure you output pressure is solidly over 800psi and consistent? This gets overlooked sometimes, so just checking...

Sandman
01-12-2022, 07:21 PM
nak81783

Sorry I missed your post. I'm not getting e-mail notifications for some reason.

I've got two tanks. One is about 825 psi. The other is about 750 psi. They're just the cheap GI/Empire regulators on 68/4500 carbon fiber tanks. Both have the same issue.

Ran the X-Valve last Friday, and it did great. Paint was .635-.686", as measured with calipers, so velocity was all over the place. Couldn't really tell if the issue has resolved with more break in, because velocity was too inconsistent.