Level 10 not resetting

Ok, so still on my automag learning curve. Basically, assume I'm still a mag newbie. I decided to throw an RT on/off in my x valve to see what it's like. I got it shooting and RTing fairly well (seems to have a very very short RT area on the trigger, is that normal?)

And I had to swap around carriers in the process, I'm not sure the one that was in there was the correct one but now I seem to have lost some anti chop.

Black spring, will not fire on red (pull trigger, nothing, trigger is still pushed forward by the on/off) gold doesn't seem to make a difference, I have a full length silver if I need to cut one

When I stick my finger in the breach and it chufs, it doesn't reset the bolt, the bolt stays forward about a quarter inch. I can then release and pull the trigger again and it fires WITHOUT the bolt resetting back. So if my finger is a paintball, I just pinched it and then chopped it.

I have 3 shims in between the carrier and bolt tip, but honestly, I forgot what those even do

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none of mine have shims but not all will do the same thing.

Go backwards. Change all the parts back to where it was working and start again. Get your L10 back to resetting and then change the on/off.

Also, RT effect is from the input of the tank and you'll always have a "sweet spot".

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Originally Posted by Nobody

Go backwards. Change all the parts back to where it was working and start again. Get your L10 back to resetting and then change the on/off.

Also, RT effect is from the input of the tank and you'll always have a "sweet spot".

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Well I've never really had this thing working great. The o rings in it, while probably a year and a half old at this point have less than 2 cases through them.

On the RT, yeah I realize I'll have a sweet spot, is it normal for that spot to be super super small?

Also that brings up a question, what happens if I increase/decrease input pressure?

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weren't the black springs used on pumps ?

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Originally Posted by trbo323

Ok, so still on my automag learning curve. Basically, assume I'm still a mag newbie. I decided to throw an RT on/off in my x valve to see what it's like. I got it shooting and RTing fairly well (seems to have a very very short RT area on the trigger, is that normal?)

And I had to swap around carriers in the process, I'm not sure the one that was in there was the correct one but now I seem to have lost some anti chop.

Black spring, will not fire on red (pull trigger, nothing, trigger is still pushed forward by the on/off) gold doesn't seem to make a difference, I have a full length silver if I need to cut one

When I stick my finger in the breach and it chufs, it doesn't reset the bolt, the bolt stays forward about a quarter inch. I can then release and pull the trigger again and it fires WITHOUT the bolt resetting back. So if my finger is a paintball, I just pinched it and then chopped it.

I have 3 shims in between the carrier and bolt tip, but honestly, I forgot what those even do

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First off an explanation on how the Lvl 10 bolt works. The whole concept is to balance opposing forces just enough for the bolt to not chop paint within a certain window of movement. The opposing forces at work, the dump chamber pressure vs the main bolt spring, lvl 10 carrier oring "stiction", the friction between the bolt and bolt spring, the friction of the bolt on the main body. Barrel length will also play a part in the "opposing forces" opera, but that will directly control FPS of the paint, not the balancing act going on inside the breech. Ill touch on that at the end.

How each force acts upon the system:

1)The dump chamber pressure: This represents the main force within the system. It is controlled by the gun regulator. The PSI in the chamber controls the FPS of the paint accelerating out the barrel. For air to escape out the barrel the PSI force needs to overcome the opposing force(s) enough to allow air to get past the power tube orings and flow out the barrel. For the LVL 10 bolt to work properly there is a window of overcoming the opposing force, but doing so just enough to not be to forceful on the paint. If you have to much opposing force then air will not escape out the dump chamber. If not enough then the bolt will be to harsh on paint, and chop. To overcome the opposing force one option is to increase dump chamber pressure. But as I stated earlier if you do that you increase the FPS of the paint out the barrel. Compared to all other forces within the marker, this is the only one with a much more proactive and detailed ability to adjust. Springs and orings require disassembly of the marker and operate within a much smaller acceptable range.

2) bolt spring: This represents the primary opposing force. This along with other friction "stiction" forces controls how hard or soft the bolt comes forward as it moves down the breech. The main concept to remember when dealing with bolt springs is that they have the most control over minimum amount of PSI required to cycle the gun. What do I mean by that? There is a minimum amount of force the dump chamber pressure has to exert to allow the marker to fire. If there isn't enough force to overcome the opposing force then the bolt wont cycle properly. Now factor in that we shoot paintballs just under 300 FPS. PSI has a direct affect on FPS. So if I need a certain PSI to overcome the opposing force to cycle the gun then there is a floor in which I can not bring the marker bellow a certain FPS. PSI also has a direct impact on how much force the bolt exerts on paint. To much PSI, to much force on the bolt, to harsh on paint, chopped paint. Finally the different springs that are offered for the bolt have different starting force, or resting force, when the trigger is pulled. You can tell when you put a spring on the bolt and slide it into the gun. The gold spring has a relative light starting force, red has a stronger starting force. This starting force helps lessen the impact of the bolt when the trigger is pulled. This is why the red spring is usually used when dealing with the LVL 10 bolt. But as stated earlier the springs used has the largest impact on the minimum PSI floor required to cycle the gun. So its a balancing act, how soft do you want the bolt vs where do you want your FPS.

3) Bolt carrier oring "stiction": This is a lesser force compared to the bolt spring and dump chamber, but a very vital one. In a nut shell within the context of an automag, spring and gas pressures forces never operate at an even consistency. With gas pressures, as volume (and temperature) changes it will have a direct impact on its force. As the container of a static gas volume grows there is an inverted decrease in force. As the bolt stem slides down the power tube, the container volume increases, the gas force decreases (not much but noticeable). On the other hand the bolt spring, all springs as they are compressed they exert more force. So as time goes on in the gun cycle you have one force that decreases, and another force that increases. If you graph out the sum of the opposing forces (dump chamber force minus spring force) you would get this gnarly wave like line. A bell curve with its peak pushed in (not quite but close enough for internet forum explanation). The point of the oring is to knock these peaks down to more acceptable levels. With that said these forces are very susceptible to outside influences, like temperature, how clean your bolt is, how effective your regulator is, and the activation of the LVL bolt (manufacturing process of the LVL 10 bolt). But a oiled up oring sliding down a metal stem provided a much more even resistant force. Combined that with the bolt stem is hollow and releasing gas through a small hole provides enough consistency of force through the bolt travel to allow the bolt to bounce off a paintball and not chop it. If you put to tight of an oring on, you need to increase pressure, which increases the bolt force, increases FPS, increases the harshness on paint. To loose of a oring and it will leak. You want the loosest carrier that wont leak. Earlier I spoke about a dual peak graph representing the sum of both forces. Because the "stiction" force is a much more universal constant resistance on the system, to overcome its force, you unfortunately need to raise the peaks on the other two forces by increasing PSI (I am hypothesizing that law of inertia will indirectly cause the spring graph peak to grow to) causing the bolt to become more harsh on paint.

4) Bolt friction on the spring and body: This is not talked about but plays a big roll on how the system works. Automags are machined to quite high tolerances relative to other paintball markers. But these parts are still susceptible to warping from external forces. The rear screw that holds the valve into the body is also responsible for controlling the position of the whole valve/bolt assembly within the bore axis of the gun. If its to tight then the bolt will rub against the spring and body to much, causing to much friction, impacting the opposing force dynamic happening inside the breech. This comes in the form of bolt stick. If the gun cycles but then sticks then there is to much friction between the spring, bolt, gun body. Grease and oil will reduce friction, but as a disposable item will have less and less impact on the system as time goes on. LVL 10 shims will help in this area because they are responsible for controlling when the bolt begins out gassing air from the dump chamber. When gas is not leaking out the bolt, the dump chamber is exerting maximum PSI against the bolt. But this will not help on the return bolt trip. The only force responsible for returning the bolt is the bolt spring. This is usually why bolt stick happens on the bolt return cycle (not always but usually). One thing to note, adding shims to your LVL 10 power tube actually decreases the effectiveness of the LVL 10. This is because you prevent gas from leaking out of the bolt stem hole until latter in the bolt cycle. This allows the bolt to accelerate with more force. Its not a lot but its something working against you.

Now onto more advanced topics. With your balancing act constructed what you are overall trying to do is draw enough energy out of the dump chamber into the springs, orings, leaking air out of the bolt, and bolt/spring/body friction to cut down on how harsh the bolt is on the paint. At the same time shoot the paintball out the barrel close to 300 FPS. You do this by bringing the minimum PSI floor required to cycle the bolt up enough to cycle the bolt but has just enough energy to shoot paint at 300 fps. If your coalition of opposing forces is not enough then the bolt will be to harsh on paint. If its to much, the gun will not cycle. This is why the red spring is used the most. Its the best we have at bringing the floor up to an acceptable level but still allow for regulator adjustments yet not be to harsh on paint. If you really really want to fine tune the setup buy a silver spring and cut it down. Gold is to harsh, not enough resistance. But will work perfectly on a LVL 7 bolt. But what about barrel length? Hopefully my words did not come off as the ramblings of a mad man, and was coherent enough to learn something. Because the last part of this, the part almost no one talks about, is how unported barrel length has an impact on the system. This is why after 26 years of playing paintball I still shoot Automags. Barrel length solely controls the FPS of paint. The longer the unported aspects of your barrel the more FPS (to a limit) you get, WITHOUT needing to increase dump chamber pressure. Up to this point the only way to increase FPS was to increase dump chamber pressure, which increases bolt force and increases chances of chops. Well now you have another way to adjust FPS without touching the gun regulator. Get yourself a 14 inch XL bored, unported barrel, a XL barrel kit, and you will be able to shoot really brittle paint, with almost no chops, with an Automag.

Thanks for the long write up sply

Here's where some of my confusion is though,

I've had it shooting "fine" with the red spring before, I'm not sure what changed but right now it's shooting 285 with a 14 inch proto barrel. I actually have a xl bored barrel on the way and I am expecting my velocity to go up when I switch to that. So if the red spring is the best option, how do I use it and lower my velocity at the same time? It seems, right now in order to use the red spring I would need to increase the dump chamber pressure, which, combined with the xl barrel is going to put my velocity through the moon



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Originally Posted by trbo323

Thanks for the long write up sply

Here's where some of my confusion is though,

I've had it shooting "fine" with the red spring before, I'm not sure what changed but right now it's shooting 285 with a 14 inch proto barrel. I actually have a xl bored barrel on the way and I am expecting my velocity to go up when I switch to that. So if the red spring is the best option, how do I use it and lower my velocity at the same time? It seems, right now in order to use the red spring I would need to increase the dump chamber pressure, which, combined with the xl barrel is going to put my velocity through the moon



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No idea what changed. Tighten or loosen the rear screw that holds the valve in place. If its sticking then when its still stuck loosen the bolt 1/8 to a 1/4 of a turn. If it resets then the screw was to tight. If that didnt work, then put the screw back into default position then tighten it 1/8 - 1/4 of a turn. Also put as large of a carrier in without leaking. This will increase FPS so then you will need to turn the regulator down, which will make the bolt softer.

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Originally Posted by maniacmechanic

weren't the black springs used on pumps ?

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my oldest level 7 had a black spring until i rebuilt it few years ago. bought in the mid 90's.

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Originally Posted by trbo323

Thanks for the long write up sply

Here's where some of my confusion is though,

I've had it shooting "fine" with the red spring before, I'm not sure what changed but right now it's shooting 285 with a 14 inch proto barrel. I actually have a xl bored barrel on the way and I am expecting my velocity to go up when I switch to that. So if the red spring is the best option, how do I use it and lower my velocity at the same time? It seems, right now in order to use the red spring I would need to increase the dump chamber pressure, which, combined with the xl barrel is going to put my velocity through the moon



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Dawned on me I did not completly answer your question.

Are you at 285 with the red spring right now? If so put the largest carrier in that wont leak then turn down the regulator. If its still to high then make sure the rear screw is not to tight. If that doesnt help then you may need to clip the red spring. I have a full red spring, with a 0.5 carrier, using a 11 inch lapco barrel bored out, using a XL insert extender. With my 14 inch 1 piece I can shoot 290 with the proper insert, 280 with an overbore insert.

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Originally Posted by splyncryth

Dawned on me I did not completly answer your question.

Are you at 285 with the red spring right now? If so put the largest carrier in that wont leak then turn down the regulator. If its still to high then make sure the rear screw is not to tight. If that doesnt help then you may need to clip the red spring. I have a full red spring, with a 0.5 carrier, using a 11 inch lapco barrel bored out, using a XL insert extender. With my 14 inch 1 piece I can shoot 290 with the proper insert, 280 with an overbore insert.

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No, with the red spring it won't fire at all. I'm using either the gold or black, neither seems to make a difference.

So right now, gold spring, 0 carrier, 3 shims, 285 fps with a proto one piece (I'm assuming 689 bore) with about 900psi input

O and shooting reball, in my experience paint is about 10fps faster.

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Originally Posted by trbo323

No, with the red spring it won't fire at all. I'm using either the gold or black, neither seems to make a difference.

So right now, gold spring, 0 carrier, 3 shims, 285 fps with a proto one piece (I'm assuming 689 bore) with about 900psi input

O and shooting reball, in my experience paint is about 10fps faster.

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First off the red spring will fire you just need to increase regulator pressure to get it to fire. Remember springs control the floor required to cycle the bolt. What im assuming you mean is it fires but the PSI floor won't allow you to bring the FPS down to a level you want? If you crank the regulator cap all the way in to the point of air leaking out of the regulator and it wont fire then you have other issues you will need to address.

Okay, what I mentioned previously still stands:

Put in the largest carrier in that wont leak. Remember to put oil in after installing a new carrier.
Remove all shims from the power tube.
Make sure the back screw is on snug, not to loose, not to tight. Hand tight is the place to start. When you install the back screw, a good idea is to press the valve into the gun so to relieve friction/pressure of the valve body on the screw. It will make it easier to screw it in and get the desired screw position. If the bolt sticks then first try to back the screw out, if that does not work then put the screw back to default then screw it in. Do this 1/8 turn increments. Do not go past unscrewing 1 turn.

Also it most likely wont matter but set your tank to 800PSI. This is to remove one variable from the equation. Fiddle with output pressure once you get everything setup.