Serious Thoughts of Modern Paintball - Please Give Some Feedback

**68magOwner** · 05-18-2005, 08:20 PM

i dint read your whole post, but from what i skimmed, you want thoughts on #1-ramping #2- high bps in general

#1- i for one am not a big fan of ramping, even though I use psp modes in tourenys which it is intended for, i still much prefer playing in semi (partly because i have spent years developing gunfighting/shooting skills which are now somewhat neglected by ramping) I see plenty of kids who, pre-ramping were'nt very good players go out and beat guys who were concidered very good 1v1 and from what i can tell, this is based solely on the ramping making up for the inferior player's lack of gunhandling ability

#2- high ROF in general, if i had it my way, everything would be un-capped, but, everyone would have to shoot in a legal firing mode (rare now a days) i would feel much better getting laned out buy a guy who can shoot 20bps legally (really hard to come by) than some nit wit shooting 15 while picking his nose with his other hand.

**teufelhunden** · 05-18-2005, 08:22 PM

Originally posted by MadPSIence

Please just hit the little X-Button if you feel the need to flame, insult or what-not. I'm looking for open minded intelligent discussion in here. I trust that AO is one of the few paintball sites left where this is possible, thank you

With all the discussion about the legal BPS, ramping, full auto and rules in paintball now I thought I'd post up an idea as well as my opinion aside from the clutter.

first I want to give my opinion on the speed of guns, firing modes, ramping and safety.

To start, I am thoroughly against ramping. I do believe it takes away from the sport, for the exact reasons most people against it would suggest. I am against it for 2 reasons. The first being that I believe it really does change the game in terms of play (fun factor) and safety. For one, with ramping on it's a no brainer to bring your gun up to 15bps (using legal #'s here) and sustain it until you run your hopper dry. I think this is really going to rob a lot of (not all) people's games by turning gameplay into a match of camping (little movement due to a hundred balls in the air at all times with such insane speeds) and due to the ability to do so; having the power to sit in place and act as a human machine gun turret.
Yeah, that NXL, lots of camping there.. oh, and they were the first ones to allow 15bps ramping. The format, not the rules, will dictate how the game is played.

On the safety issue of ramping I understand there has been a debate on it's safety but I have my own reasons for deeming it moderately dangerous (not 100%.. but often.. think yellow alert) Imagine this scenario.. 2 players are 35 feet apart behind bunkers snap shooting at each other.. one player is ramping his shots when the other player peeks out. He starts walking and within an instant it's ramping.. suddenly the other player sticks out too far and is hit.. but there is a STREAM of balls coming at him at say 285fps and human reaction time in this situation is maybe .500 let's say..add the time it takes to MOVE to the R/T. Now if the other player has ramped up to 15bps and is shooting.. and say after 2.5 seconds of firing comes the point when the other player pokes his torso out and gets hit... there are a TON of balls in the air coming at him. So even if the shooting player stops shooting after the hit.. which will take time due to his reaction time of seeing the other guy is out... you have ample time for 15-30 balls to hit the other player. Depending on accuracy and say quick reaction time.. say 20 hit him.Your R/T numbers are far too high, watch drag racing. Plus, maybe fatso with the backpack warp will take 2 seconds, but you're discrediting the average paintballer with these numbers. As for safety, look around for Manike's posts. Our gear can handle what's being shot at it. If you're out there with exposed nuts and no mask, you're taking that risk. Hell, most of us take extra risk by not wearing a neck guard, but it's available if we want.

20 balls at 285fps.. jesus mary and joseph. I think ramping programs should be limited to 8-9bps. The idea behind ramping is to make it easier to get speed up while running or maneuvering. It shouldn't be to jack up your speed when you should be in a position to use your natural skill. If you're gonna cheat nature and have the ramping on you should pay the price by having it capped at a safe speed/fair speed. I'll leave ramping at that.. I'm not going to become an activist or anything that's just my thoughts.. I have much more to post about.

BPS Limits - I think that 15bps is very fast.. but you know what it's fair. Some people can pull 15bps peaks naturally and can average 13-14 bps over a short time. It's unfair to force someone to not use the skill they have. If you can legally pull 16bps.. I think you should be allowed. I know there's probably nobody that can shoot 16 or higher so I think that if ramping and bounce didn't exist.. it should be legal. Sadly with ramping allowed in some leagues.. there needs to be a limit. I think it would be something if BPS was uncapped.. and full auto and ramping got kicked right the F out, or as I mentioned above, cap ramping at 8 or 9 bps and keep the 15bps rule in place. It's impossible to cap ramping and not semi and properly officiate a game.That whole thing with uncapped semi.. they tried that. Kinda, for a while. Like, that's why we have legal ramp rules now, because it's becoming next to impossible to detect ramp modes. Do you really think if you say "OK guys, uncapped semi but 9bps ramp".. people will play honestly and say 'OK, let me turn up my debounce!!' No, they'll get out their Speedy chips and that's that, just like last season.

Before ramping came along paintball was a fast and fun sport already. But you'll notice people didn't complain because to shoot fast YOU had to be fast. I think guns are slowly becoming uncontrollable to rookie and novice players, especially youngsters. Sad thing is anyone can get a hold of one too. I hate seeing an electro in the hands of anyone under 16 (with a few exceptions) nowadays because of the responsibility required to safely use a gun that can shoot someone 25 times in one second.

Don't get me wrong I'm not some old woodsballer trying to bring back the pump days, but enough is enough.

In baseball you can't use steroids or cork a bat.
In hockey there are rules on the curve of a stick.
In basketball you can't put springs in your shoes.
In golf you can't use cheater balls for huge distance.
Yeah, can't use roids. Can't cork a bat. Hm, can't think of anybody who's done that recently. Can't also think of anybody who, oh, cross checked someone discretely or gets into a fight with somoene to put them in the box. Nike Shox? No, no cheater balls, but you can have 4,000mL drivers.

Would these things improve a players performance? yes. But they would rob the game of any respect or honor.

Paintball is becoming a lawless sport. In terms of protective equipment the industry has succeeded in protecting players while not being ridiculous (guaranteed bounce, splatter-proof, easy to wipe etc...) It's the marker manufactuers that are smearing the honor of the game. No, it's the players. The manufacturers produce what is demanded of them. If there was no demand for ramp, nobody would make it. But there's money to be made, and these are BUSINESSES that exist to MAKE MONEY

There's a reason other sports get big and have hundreds of millions (maybe a billion or 2 for some) of fans and followers. TRADITION. Tradition in paintball is something mostly remembered and not practiced. In other sports, equipment is fashioned in accordance to rules. In paintball rules are fashioned weekly in accordance to equipment, this is a problem

More later, off to ROTS.

**Nexus** · 05-18-2005, 08:24 PM

I think this topic has been discussed pretty thoroughly, but your post is definitely one of the most intelligent and thorough ones I have seen. I also happen to entirely agree, so I am a bit biased. I liked the part where you compared paintball to other sports. There seems to be a general feeling amoung paintbal players that if the majority does not mind ramping, then who cares? Admittedly, equipment is far more important in paintball than most other sports, but it still must be limited. If there were no limitations on equipment in traditional sports, you would quickly see jump-assists in basketball, self-propelled gold balls, and other things of that nature (ok, maybe those are extreme examples).

You have to draw a ling somewhere with regards to equipment to ensure that the majority of the game relies on personal skill and skill as a team, not who has the newest gaget. Yes, high quality guns make a noticable difference, but good golf clubs help alot too. You still have to draw a line somewhere. Although, you still have to decide where to draw the line. The best argument I have seen is the one regarding safety. Eventually, super fast shooting guns will simply not be safe. There are many other arguments, but I think more people can understand and agree with safety issues than other reasons.

**MadPSIence** · 05-18-2005, 08:31 PM

[QUOTE=teufelhunden] - content - [QUOTE]

in reguards to your reply about rules and cheating in other sports.. you're right not many corked bats or illegal things pop up. It's because in those sports there is an actual sense of tradition and an honor system. (not to mention greater consequences for cheating). Frankly, and quote me for this, tourney ballers are some of the most careless sportsman when it's come to any sort of traditionalism or honor in the game. don't get me wrong most pro-ballers are respectable and well mannered athletes (albeit spoiled celebrities) but when youngsters are just as capable of using this equipment.. seriously. 15 year olds (and younger & older) don't give (or know) 2 craps about an honor system or anything.

**RoamingStorm** · 05-18-2005, 08:31 PM

i think paintball is less fun than it was in past years, i say you dont need a gun that can shoot 100 bps, get something accurate, that you like, personally im trying to get a phantom, and organize a 10 man pump game at a forest by my house, that would be fun not listening to some guy hope he hits you because hes firing 100 balls in your general direction

keep in mind all opinions i have stated are mine i do not need or wish for criticism

**MadPSIence** · 05-18-2005, 08:36 PM

Originally posted by Nexus

I think this topic has been discussed pretty thoroughly, but your post is definitely one of the most intelligent and thorough ones I have seen. I also happen to entirely agree, so I am a bit biased. I liked the part where you compared paintball to other sports. There seems to be a general feeling amoung paintbal players that if the majority does not mind ramping, then who cares? Admittedly, equipment is far more important in paintball than most other sports, but it still must be limited. If there were no limitations on equipment in traditional sports, you would quickly see jump-assists in basketball, self-propelled gold balls, and other things of that nature (ok, maybe those are extreme examples).

You have to draw a ling somewhere with regards to equipment to ensure that the majority of the game relies on personal skill and skill as a team, not who has the newest gaget. Yes, high quality guns make a noticable difference, but good golf clubs help alot too. You still have to draw a line somewhere. Although, you still have to decide where to draw the line. The best argument I have seen is the one regarding safety. Eventually, super fast shooting guns will simply not be safe. There are many other arguments, but I think more people can understand and agree with safety issues than other reasons.

I agree with you and would like to also add I wish paintball would follow the example of other sports. Like.. take Formula 2 or GT350 for example. Cars are limited to certain specs.. so that driving skill does become the winning factor. Allowing ramping in paintball is like putting an (hypothetical) autopilot in a racecar. It takes the load off of you.. and when EVERYONE has ramping - you basically have a racetrack with everycar on auto pilot pile every driver sits back and taps buttons. Perhaps not to that extreme but the more you move down the ladder from pro to novice the more evident the lack of skill used is seen,

**rx2** · 05-18-2005, 09:22 PM

**tyrion2323** · 05-19-2005, 01:13 AM

My thoughts:

- Not good, not bad. Ramping is ramping. If you don't want to play in a game with it, you have that choice. I'm not particularly impressed with ramping, and I think that the PSP, CFOA and NXL all chickened out of really standing up to trends. I would not have allowed it. That being said, it's allowed, and therefore it isn't cheating. I, myself, am considering purchasing a ramping board.

- Who's fault? Don't blame the manufacturers...blame the players. The market is entirely up to players. I have no facts or statistics, but I can make a reasonable guess that a large percentage of speedball and tournament players fall into the 13-17 age range, which leads me to believe that possibly the reasons behind the prevalance of ramping (and cheating, as well) is the different mindset that they come to the field with.

- But wait! Before we blame the kids, let's take a look at the Pros. I have very little respect for most professional teams in paintball. It has, for a large part, become more about the image of paintball than the actual game. Lasoya, Lang, whoever - they're bad role models. They openly cheat, use illegal guns, and more. And the worst part is, it's not even taboo! Dynasty can get called for a serious infraction of the rules, and nobody stands up and says, "we've got to stop this."

**Crazy** · 05-19-2005, 02:12 AM

Originally posted by tyrion2323

My thoughts:
- But wait! Before we blame the kids, let's take a look at the Pros. I have very little respect for most professional teams in paintball. It has, for a large part, become more about the image of paintball than the actual game. Lasoya, Lang, whoever - they're bad role models. They openly cheat, use illegal guns, and more. And the worst part is, it's not even taboo! Dynasty can get called for a serious infraction of the rules, and nobody stands up and says, "we've got to stop this."

So your telling me that the -100 points along with the two event suspension of Opie Loughran, and causing dynasty dynamics to play with 6 for 6 games is considered openly cheating and using illegal guns?

**shartley** · 05-19-2005, 05:00 AM

**Lohman446** · 05-19-2005, 05:13 AM

My thoughts on ramping and high BPS. It is most definetly a skill to pull high BPS, and it most definetly can and does have an outcome on games to a point. I have a problem with the fact that that is a skill that can win paintball. It seems overly concentrated on, I think people overevaluate how much of a skill it is. Either way, I like the idea that ramping, capped at a reasonable number (argue later if 15BPS is reasonable), levels the playing field and takes this "skill" away from being a determing factor. Maybe its the fact that I can't pull, nor do I think I can pull, 15BPS that makes me like this rule.

Ramping... I don't know that ramping represents a danger. I think that it might be acceptably safe. However, we live in a litagous (sp) society, one that often has politically driven district attorneys. At this point I have not seen any scientific testing that indicates to me that ramping is acceptably safe, or one that would even outline the dangers we seem to accept. The ASTM has set up accepted standards for the industry (at the industry's request?). Violating these standards, without scientific backing, represents what should be to most a civil negligence risk that is unacceptable. I also maintain that violation of these standards represents a criminal negligence risk that should be troublesome to most people.

What have I said? I have not said that ramping is necessarily dangerous. Playing paintball represents a degree of obvious and inherent risk. However, violating ASTM standards is risky, for legal reasons. My thoughts on ramping are less defined - they need not be. I know the risks of ramping, and they are both on and off field.

**Maggot6** · 05-19-2005, 05:31 AM

I agree with everyone in this thread, everything has a valid point But the thing I would like to see changed the most, is instead of a 15 bps ramp, I'd like it somewhere between 10-12. Becuase that is how fast the average player shoots during a game (for short periods of course) So that the semi people would be a bit more happy.

**shartley** · 05-19-2005, 06:55 AM

**tyrion2323** · 05-19-2005, 07:29 AM

Originally posted by Crazy

So your telling me that the -100 points along with the two event suspension of Opie Loughran, and causing dynasty dynamics to play with 6 for 6 games is considered openly cheating and using illegal guns?

Am I telling you that Opie Laughran getting caught with an Illegal gun is "considered openly cheating and using an illegal gun"?
Do I really need to answer that?

WARNING: I get long and boring for the rest of this post. I make lots of statements and use lots of space. If you're not interested in my contempt for cheating, skip this post.

I'll break it down for ya.

Did he use an Illegal gun? Yes
Was it pretty obvious? Yes
Does this happen to Dynasty frequently? Yes
Is Dynasty well-versed enough in paintball to know the rules? Yes.
Aside from a two-event suspension, will Dynasty be punished? No.
Has this blatant cheating even fazed the community? No
When Sammy Sosa was using a Corked bat, was it a big deal? Yes
When Pro teams cheat and wipe, is it looked down upon? Not particularly
Do kids emulate pro teams by cheating, ramping and poor conduct and sportsmanship? Yes

We've all seen pros cheat. Ollie Lang cheats. Chris Lasoya cheats. Friggin' everybody cheats.

Question(s):

Does cheating diminish the sportmanship of a player? Yes
Does tolerating cheating diminish the honor of the game? Yes

When we find that an Olympic or professional athlete or team has used cheating methods to win a game, what do we do? We strip them of their titles and fine them.

What should we do when we find that a paintball team is using cheating methos? Disqualify the entire team from the event. Slapping their wrists isn't going to fix the problem. We have to hold ourselves to the highest standards, or others (i.e. the public) have no reason to respect us. Today's paintball culture has adopted cheating not only as an acceptable technique, but lauds players who use it. Fans adore blatantly cheating players, and don't speak out against the mob-mentality of pro paintball.

I love Paintball with a passion. I play it twice per week, and I practice with many teams. I will continue to play paintball and love it. That being said...

The entire game of paintball is corrupt with cheating.

Players practice it and condone it.
Videos blatantly show it happening without denouncing it.
Manufacturers cater to it.
Pro teams exemplify it for their throngs of fans.
Leagues are afraid to truly crack down on it.
Leagues adopt it into their game; allowing ramping (once a cheat) and using penalty boxes (instead of ousting the player and/or team).

Disagree with me? Disprove me. If only it were so.

Serious Thoughts of Modern Paintball - Please Give Some Feedback

Serious Thoughts of Modern Paintball - Please Give Some Feedback

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