Tac_One, AGD isn't Fooling Around Any More>>

[Beemer]

I feel a disturbance in the SHIFT, WIZARD

[BarryTolar]

400 - I'd buy one

550 is what I figure it has to cost

Barry

[Major Ho]

Hands down drop the ULT. Absolutely without a doubt unnecessary commodity.
Lvl 10 is a big selling point and a must, Xvalve to go hand in hand would be a benefit. The frame is questionable
Lowest: 400
Highest: 650-700

On second thought, whats the N2 usage for scenario/woodsballers? If they seem to use N2 a lot go X, if Co2 seems to be dominant go classic valve.

[Big Ben]

I have played rec ball for 12 years and some of the fields I play at are just getting nitro, the last big game I played(250 players) most of the players were shooting co2. If these are only sold with an X valve then Players have to also get a Nitro tank. So would we want to spend $500 on this and then another 100-200 on nitro or I could get a very nice electro that runs on Co2 or a upgraded tippmann for $500. I would sell the x valve as an upgrade I would also sell the ult as an upgrade it seems to be more of a personal taste then a must have.

With classic valve + lvl 10 $275-325
With Xvalve - $450-500
Package it with a steel nitro tank an intellifed hopper
$550-600. The rec players that I know look for packages to start out, I would have that as an option. Also the lvl 10 needs to be set at the factory and have good instructions. People will want to buy these and go right in to the game not spend time tuning things.

Another thing almost everyone I know that has a tippmann has upgraded it to an rt. An x with the lvl 10 will blow them away.

I love that AGD is doing this, just another reason you guys ROCK.

[Beemer]

What all you guys said.

Key words co2,HPA,Package,entry level

When I bought my first gun 15 yrs ago it was ready to go right out of the box. Pump with 7oz tank, fill it up and play,payed 300 for it.[Package]

If they like the package they'll be back for the upgrades,if theyre happy as is, you still made a sale.

2 prices for a Package deal
500 to 550
Take em by storm 450


I feel the disturbance in the SHIFT getting stronger Wizard

[AGD]

WOW! As ususal AO comes through in a big way, THANKS!! We will drop the ULT trigger or make it an upgrade option.

Here is another new idea, what if you could change one part in the X valve and make it run off CO2? This might be doable by changing the center regulator valve pin. If we made them without a center hole and narrow enough that they didnt seal on the oring in the reg back half, it would work just like a Classic valve on CO2.

I would like to hear more on the grip frame debate. Some vote for the carbon fiber frame others for the Intelliframe.

Thanks,

AGD

[vf-xx]

CO2 is a good choice for Scenerio ballers because that's what they seem used to.

However, is modding the xvalve for co2 better than just putting classic valves in? If so, how?

[Mossman]

Tom, I know how to fix mags but I don't understand the intricacies of the valve. If you Co2-compatiblized the Xvalve how would that change how it works with compressed air? Same reactivity and feel? If so go for it, but If it took away from the gun as a whole I wouldn't make compromises in order for it to shoot on co2.

Since it's not feasible to get the price of the tac one into the spyder range, I'd just accept the fact that you might make it unattainable for some players, but that's too bad Most people use nitro these days, and a 47/3k is only 80 bucks or so new, if they can afford any mag, let alone a sweet one like the Tac-1, they can get nitro.

I would normally say not to sell the marker with a carbon fiber frame. However, since you'll be selling them directly you have a few more options than if they were being sold in stores. Maybe make them come standard with a CF frame, but have the intelli or Y be a low cost upgrade, 50 dollars maybe, so that most people will spring for the better frames and you can factor that into the cost, but people who are die hard single finger fans or want the CF frame for some reason won't be left out in the cold.

Any word on actually possible pricing yet Tom?

[Mossman]

Originally posted by vf-xx
CO2 is a good choice for Scenerio ballers because that's what they seem used to.

However, is modding the xvalve for co2 better than just putting classic valves in? If so, how?

I have a feeling that once the design costs of the Xvalve are made back (probably has already happened), the Xvalve costs less money to produce than the classic does. Maybe not if you factor in level 10, but even high grade aluminum is cheaper, and easier to machine, if I understand correctly. The only thing the classic valve had going for it was the #'s in which it was produced, I have a feeling that AGD would rather keep making Xvalves in higher #'s than make a new batch of classics.

^all speculation, but I know somebody who could tell you for sure

[Cyberious]

I would still like to have the ULT. But if the marker was in the 350 range I would spend the extra 40 bucks. As far as the frame I would rather stick with an intelliframe or a dust black y-grip personally. So how about this. Let it come with the old RT Classic frame which was actually a good grip for a single trigger grip. But if someone wanted to order the Tac-One with an intelliframe or y-grip with it then sell it to them at something like 40% off (only at time of order though). I still want the high ROF from the X-Valve so if you could still have that and be able to run off CO2 (of course no high ROF with CO2) then that would be OK.

Can I get one before Shatnerball 04, Tom? The X-Mag needs another roommate :-)

[GT]

Originally posted by AGD

Here is another new idea, what if you could change one part in the X valve and make it run off CO2?

I would like to hear more on the grip frame debate. Some vote for the carbon fiber frame others for the Intelliframe.

You have to remember that some of the big issues that plague scenerio guys is the fact that they maybe in the feild a long long time. 2 big issues here

1. weight of your rig
2. effiency, how many shots can I get on X tank

I like the co2 idea it fixes number 2.

Lets think about #1 for a second. There is an issue of the carbon being alot lighter, however when you consider that these guys are going to have all kinds of crap strapped to thier guns the idea of shedding a few onces is probally a good one.

It would be mighty sweet if we had a carbon fiber 2x for the tac one. It would be a nice marketing deal to have the tac one ule for mounting stuff in addtion to a light 2x or single carbon.

[Severe]

I think the idea of helping the X valve work better with CO2 is a great idea, it certainly opens up the buyer base since it's not restricted to just HPA users.

My question is, would this converstion still allow it to maintain it's speed and reactivity? If players wanted, as they upgraded to HPA, could they change out this part for the normal one and be good?

I didn't mention it earlier because it didn't occur to me but another reason I think the X valve should be stock over the Classic is weight. Yes, I know, it's not that much, but some Senario players will already be carrying a ton of extra weight as part of their gear. Having their marker be the lightest possible helps. Heck, I'd even suggest stopping the pic-rail where the valve starts to cut down on excess metal. How about a sling D-ring on the back of the rail to help with carrying the marker?

As for the stock frame vs. Intelli.....I'm going to have to say stick with the Intelli. If you had an aluminum single-trigger grip frame already I'd say that would be fine. But I like the idea of an all aluminum marker over having the stock frame. Part of my thinking here is this marker will be very similarly configured to the RT Pro, which comes stock with the Intelliframe.

[AGD]

Overall its probably easier for us to stock and sell only one valve. We are trying to condense our inventory down thats why we are only using one logo on the x valve now.

The CO2 mod to the X valve would eliminate the reactive trigger and super fast recharge but if you put the original part back in it would go back to a full power HPA reactive trigger valve.

AGD

[Mossman]

I think the ultimate would be pricing the "base" co2 Tac-One at around 350 dollars. Then you can add an intelli or Y grip for 50 bucks, ULT for 40, and the Reactive valve part for 10. So anywhere from 350 for the base to 450 for the "deluxe". I'd probably snatch one up

[Cyberious]

OK so enough talk, When do I get my y-gripped, ULT, Tac-One? I want Tac-One # TO00001. How much? I'd like one for Christmas :-)

In all seriousness can I pre-order now?

[Caffiend]

Originally posted by AGD

The CO2 mod to the X valve would eliminate the reactive trigger and super fast recharge but if you put the original part back in it would go back to a full power HPA reactive trigger valve.

AGD

How hard would it be to switch out the CO2/HPA part? If it's fairly simple, I'd say go for it. That way people can upgrade to the HPA one if they'd like later on. I'd also like to piggyback on Severe's D-ring idea. I saw more slings at MXS's scenario game than....well, let's just say there was ALOT. Would there be anyway to attach it to where the foregrip goes? Have it a screw on attachment so players could take them off if they didn't want them. Not sure on which frame to have. Maybe start with a single trigger and have the I-frame as one of the upgrades.

[WARPED1]

Originally posted by AGD


Here is another new idea, what if you could change one part in the X valve and make it run off CO2? This might be doable by changing the center regulator valve pin. If we made them without a center hole and narrow enough that they didnt seal on the oring in the reg back half, it would work just like a Classic valve on CO2.

AGD

Hellz yeah!
On the intelliframe, make that an upgrade option. To an I or Y!

[PaintballSmurf13]

i swear, this is the smartest paintball company by far..im just saying, what incredible guns, and the CO2 option idea..just wow...ok anyways..
lowest-$500
highest-$700ish

-Ryan F.

[CameraGuy]

I think that being able to switch between CO2 and HPA by changing only one part is a great idea. The best of both worlds with (presumably) only a minimal extra cost.

Just a point to consider, would a single trigger .45 frame (possibly made by changing a few steps in the milling of an I-frame) appeal to enough scenario players to make it worthwhile as an ordering option? I could even see using the current model of carbon fibre trigger in such a frame.

Another thought about the trigger frame: would a blacked out trigger and grip screws (along the lines of what Rogue sells right now) fit the feel of this marker better than shiny parts?

[joker4hire]

How about a more military'ish frame?.. like the M16 grip frame of yore?

[RusskiX]

As far as frames go, let's look at the competition again...

The model 98 and A5 come standard with a single plastic/carbon fiber trigger and can be upgraded with the RT and double trigger features. Most intro level recballers seem content to start here because they know they have the option to upgrade and that appeals to them, but keeps the intro price low.

As far as the Tac-One goes, you have the same basic question: Is this a mass-market marker with a low price or a "high-end" (more expensive) scenario marker. I think most rabid 'maggers ditch the carbon fiber pretty fast for the Intelli or Y. If you want to appeal to the mass market of recballers by keeping the cost down, the carbon fiber is the way to go. BUT you have to promote the upgrade path and/or include it as an option during the ordering process. If this is your elite marker, then make the Intelli your standard frame a la the VF Tactical.

Personally, I picked up an Intelli as soon as they were available, since I prefer the smoothness and comfort of the double frame and durability of the aluminum construction.

Good luck!

[shartley]

I say offer the carbon fiber single trigger frame as the base model. This is not an issue about weight since let’s face it, in spite of what folks say about weight, when you slap all sorts of scenario stuff on, and other odds and ends, the little weight you reduce in ANY frame is negligible. I say offer it as the base frame because it is single trigger… period.

How many firearms do you see out there that use a double trigger?

I would say to offer the other grip frames in your stable as optional upgrades from the factory. Don’t make people buy the base model complete and then upgrade, let them upgrade from the factory (like you do with buying cars). That way your problem is solved.

The CO2 or HPA bolt is a fantastic idea. To be honest, there are times I wish my RTP had that option.

[davidb]

Originally posted by shartley

How many firearms do you see out there that use a double trigger?

Quite a few, actually.. But not in the paintball sense.

Back on topic, I love the idea of making the X-Valve CO2/air interchangeable. I'd say, if it's easy enough to switch out, just make SURE that it is known that this mod can be done (as in "easily modded for CO2, instructions included" stuck in the ads) and then just include a little pamphlet showing how to do it. If it's more complicated than that, then just offer them OPTIONALLY without the part, and let it be known that they can be sent in to be modded for nitro/reactivity/fast recharge.

Some people might be a little miffed, however, when they realize that the difference between their expensive ReTro Valve and their old Classic Valve was little more than a different sized pin with a hole in it.

By the way, the fact that you didn't come on here and tell some of these guys that their price estimates are rediculous is almost as shocking as it is exciting.

[Beemer]

ummmmmmmm lets see 10% over cost is like employee discount
Would 20% OVER COST TAKE EM BY STORM?

[Big Ben]

I think the trigger frame should be a double trigger to start with. It could be a cheaper one without the ability to hook it up to your hopper, but once people try and double trigger frame I don't think many go back to the single. My rate of fire increased when I switched to the double trigger on both my mag and my Tippmans.

The ability to switch from Nitro to Co2 would be great, I think there are a quite a few people out there that have to use co2 at some fields.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Big Ben
I think the trigger frame should be a double trigger to start with. It could be a cheaper one without the ability to hook it up to your hopper, but once people try and double trigger frame I don't think many go back to the single. My rate of fire increased when I switched to the double trigger on both my mag and my Tippmans.

I think this post hits on something that has been bugging me for a while in this thread…. the concern with ROF. And that being the main reason for wanting a double trigger on this marker.

Sure, a double trigger tends to increase your ROF…. But ROF is not the only concern, nor the most important, for scenario players. That is why a good many of them use stock class with modifications to look more “realistic” as well as pump markers. The idea behind scenario and “rec/woods” play is not so focused on ROF like other forms of play are. It is about the GAME itself and getting into it.

Now don’t get me wrong, ROF is still important to a good many folks. And you should not discount this. But I think some folks are skipping over the main reason AGD is coming out with this marker, and the type of play that it is being marketed for.

Honestly, I wish AGD had come out with the Intelliframe with a single trigger as well, and matching trigger guard for it. Now THAT, I think, would be the perfect match for the new Tac-One.

[Severe]

I was thinking about the CO2 option a little more, and still love it.

However, I think it's going to be pretty important to either include or specifically recommend that users intending to go C02 with the Tac-One get an expansion chamber or a C02 friendly regulator, like the Palmer.

I don't know if AGD could include such an item as base on the marker or not.

I would hate to see users picking this marker up and bad-mouthing it because of valve freeze. And that's a distinct possibility because it's not the least of a concern when picking up a Tippmann. But Tippmann does offer drop-in expansion chamber kits for both the A5 and the C98. Each runs around $50.

Perhaps AGD could partner with Palmer for a Stabilizer kit?

Perhaps it would be easier to just include this C02 conversion part with the X-valve?

Thinking out loud.

[Creative Mayhem]

Originally posted by shartley

Honestly, I wish AGD had come out with the Intelliframe with a single trigger as well, and matching trigger guard for it. Now THAT, I think, would be the perfect match for the new Tac-One.

I agree. Secenario markers are supposed to resemble some real firearms, and reall firearms have a single trigger. Now, if you question this, think of an AR-15 or other rifle with a double trigger.... not as cool is it now?

[Lohman446]

Let me say that dropping the ULE Trigger option is right on target.

Making the all aluminum valve compatible with CO2 is another great idea (I do beleive that the RT valve air routing was entirely different than the Classic valve... but does this lean to the difference being a pin). Good instructions included and this is not hard at all - another great idea.

Someone who uses Tippmans correct me on this. The rumor I have heard is there reactive triggers work much better on CO2 than HPA - just wondering if this is true.

And now we are down to wondering between an I frame and a single trigger which the scenario players will need to answer, as well as cost analysis.

This is the hard thing to do when asking consumers this type of question on pricing - what should it cost? We know what the retail value of the parts is, or has been. Factually I doubt the intelliframe costs anywhere near that to produce, ditto the x-valve. Factually, I was thinking about this last night, $350 may still be profitable (I don't know really), however one must also consider what it may do to the rest of the mag line in the way of value.

[Cilio - Knightmare Tango]

A few comments from a long time scenario/big game player/shooter:

Grip frame- I personally would prefer the I-frame double trigger but this is because my other five Mags don't have one, I would be happy with a single trigger IF it were made of aluminum. I do however strongly dislike the carbon fiber grip frame, just as I thought it was rediculous when I purchased my WGP Sniper II and it had one. This marker is going to have additional weight mounted, sights/NVD's/IR's/lights, it needs to be solid and feel solid. The carbon fiber frame on AGD and WGP guns feels cheap and week.

Valve: I Have three standard valves and one X-Valve (one of my five Mags is minus a valve and I switch a valve into it). I just bought the X-Valve recently and am extremely impressed, it stands up against pretty much anything in performance. I get more comments about the ULE mag that I built with the X-Valve than you can imagine. The negative of this would be the inability to use CO2. I played for 9 years before I finally got a compressed air tank two years ago. I was a hold out, I know, sad ;-). The problem with CO2 and the mag is that they are not perfect together. I ran CO2 on my mags with a remote and two expansion chamber, one on the tank and one small one on the gun. Even with that in cold weather it was horrible. Scenarios are also played in cold weather, though not as often. I played with my ULE/X-Valve mag this weekend and last (it was cold), it worked great with compressed air.

Level X- The single best invention in the paintball world and I doubted it heavily before I got one :-) . I was about to stop using my mags and had become totally fed up. I purchased a shocker and was going to retire them all, had three at the time. I bought my first Level X and thought it would only be an inadequate bandaid on an old piece of technology. I was wrong, it was a miricle and my love for the Mag is back. This is a must on the Tac-one or any mag for that matter. I break virtually no paint. I sold my Shocker.

Trigger- The ULT would be a disaster,if it made the Mag appear to not funtion smoothly. One of the reasons Tippmanns sell so well is they hold up to 24-26 hour scenarios well without having to constantly mess with them, they are extremely reliable. Relability is one aspect that equals fun in scenario/big games.

Just my opinions.