Bowling

[Collegeboy]

"For example, a 16-pound ball with a six degree entry angle results in a strike pocket 3.25 inches wide. Dropping down in weight to either a 14 or 15-pound ball the strike pocket becomes a little less to about three inches which is only a quarter of an inch less than a 16-pounder."

I could care less for the guy’s personal remarks.

1/4 of an inch is a huge difference between a solid 5 and a strike, the difference of 10 possible points.

Hence if you can handle a heavier ball, it is better then using a lighter ball.

[Miscue]

No kidding! I never said it wasn't if it can be handled!

Here's the thing, many people have the tendency to go heavier than they should... particularly when people sell them on the idea.

I can throw a 15 or 16 for 10 games straight w/o pain or discomfort... I've done so. According to you, this means I should stick with a 15 or 16. However, I cannot rev the ball as much or throw the ball as fast... and more importantly, not as consistently. Throwing a 14lb'er with more spin and speed will put more energy into the pins that a heavier ball with less energy.

A 15 or 16 is fine not when it doesn't hurt you or make you tired... but when you can throw that SOB with mustard and with consistency. Then OF COURSE you should use the heavier ball! Gimp doesn't look like a big guy from his pictures, and a 14-15 looks more appropriate for him. A 16lb'er is more appropriate for guys who are over 160lbs with a good amount of strength.

Consistency is key. The weight that allows someone to be most consistent is the best weight.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Miscue


Well, I mentioned that because it worked for me in my particular situation. When I started getting serious with the game, I wasted a couple of years because the proshop guys screwed up my drilling. I was having release problems, and they blamed it on me... and said I was squeezing the ball... and I was beginning to believe it.

That's the real problem,there are idiots screwing people up in ALL sports.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Collegeboy
[B
Hence if you can handle a heavier ball, it is better then using a lighter ball. [/B]

You still don't understand why that's an outdated opinion.

My last comment on that, I already stated,which was I have LESS carry with a heavier ball(16)as do many others do to the excessive drive provided with the combination of synthetic lanes and reactive balls.For me and MANY other bowlers who throw a powerful ball,14-15lbs balls are a much better choice.

Jay.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue
No kidding! I never said it wasn't if it can be handled!

Here's the thing, many people have the tendency to go heavier than they should... particularly when people sell them on the idea.

I can throw a 15 or 16 for 10 games straight w/o pain or discomfort... I've done so. According to you, this means I should stick with a 15 or 16. However, I cannot rev the ball as much or throw the ball as fast... and more importantly, not as consistently. Throwing a 14lb'er with more spin and speed will put more energy into the pins that a heavier ball with less energy.

A 15 or 16 is fine not when it doesn't hurt you or make you tired... but when you can throw that SOB with mustard and with consistency. Then OF COURSE you should use the heavier ball! Gimp doesn't look like a big guy from his pictures, and a 14-15 looks more appropriate for him. A 16lb'er is more appropriate for guys who are over 160lbs with a good amount of strength.

Consistency is key. The weight that allows someone to be most consistent is the best weight.

If you can not get the 16 pound ball to do what you want, then you can not handle the ball.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by RRfireblade


You still don't understand why that's an outdated opinion.

My last comment on that, I already stated,which was I have LESS carry with a heavier ball(16)as do many others do to the excessive drive provided with the combination of synthetic lanes and reactive balls.For me and MANY other bowlers who throw a powerful ball,14-15lbs balls are a much better choice.

Jay.

Yeah, that's why so many pros use 15s instead of 16s... even though they could handle 17s if they existed.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


If you can not get the 16 pound ball to do what you want, then you can not handle the ball.

He is learning. How is he going to know that? He's going to struggle with any ball he picks. Will he eventually keep struggling because he's not learning? or will it be because the ball is preventing him from progress? At this point, it will be difficult for him to gauge what is appropriate for him. A lighter ball is safer. He can always get another ball, which he should anyway... if he finds he's improved to the point where a heavier ball would be more appropriate.

[Leroy717]

bowling is awesome! But i suck at it!last time i went i got a 31......yes i know, thats very very bad.

[gimp]

Wow. I never realized how complicated bowling was. I don't have any sort of hook when I bowl. I just throw it as straight as I can, right down the middle. I'm pretty consistent with it. I'm a little guy, so I use a light ball. hehehe I think it's a women's one actually. It is pink. My average score is about 115.

So, I don't really have an actual bowling style. I just roll the ball. I'm a blank slate right now. I'd like to learn how to do that hook stuff. The lanes I play at are crappy. I can't tell, I just roll the ball straight. Thats just what people say.

Should I start learning how to hook the ball with the crappy balls at they alley? From what you guys are saying, there's a lot more to bowling than I expected. I'm thinking I should practice more before I go plunkin money down on a ball.

Thanks for all the input!

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue


He is learning. How is he going to know that? He's going to struggle with any ball he picks. Will he eventually keep struggling because he's not learning? or will it be because the ball is preventing him from progress? At this point, it will be difficult for him to gauge what is appropriate for him. A lighter ball is safer. He can always get another ball, which he should anyway... if he finds he's improved to the point where a heavier ball would be more appropriate.

Since he is beginning that is why I steered him towards the white dot or any basic plastic ball. He said he was happy with the house balls (plastic balls), but they all fight over the same one. If he would get a cheap plastic ball (doesn't matter the make, could be a Mickey Mouse one for all I care), and get it to fit his fingers it will be good for him. A cheap plastic ball will only do an 8 board movement on the lane. With this I said the best place would be to throw between the 3 and 2 arrows and hold it suit case style (just like you would hold a suit case). When you are throwing practically a straight ball it is all in follow threw, release, and placement. It is not about getting a good spin on the ball, or anything. That is why I said if he can handle the weight a 16 pound ball, it would be better then a 14 or 15. (why I said once you get in the upper end of the spectrum, the balls get close to each other between the 14 and 16).

[RRfireblade]

I'm thinking I should practice more before I go plunkin money down on a ball.

Well if I were you,I'd just get a plastic ball(inexpensive),drilled to fit you so that you can start to develop some form and your own style.Try a few different weights and get the heaviest one that you can swing comfortably.Then when you have a better idea what you need,you can keep that ball as a spare ball and get one of better quality and you haven't lost any money.

Jay

[Miscue]

Originally posted by gimp
Wow. I never realized how complicated bowling was. I don't have any sort of hook when I bowl. I just throw it as straight as I can, right down the middle. I'm pretty consistent with it. I'm a little guy, so I use a light ball. hehehe I think it's a women's one actually. It is pink. My average score is about 115.

So, I don't really have an actual bowling style. I just roll the ball. I'm a blank slate right now. I'd like to learn how to do that hook stuff. The lanes I play at are crappy. I can't tell, I just roll the ball straight. Thats just what people say.

Should I start learning how to hook the ball with the crappy balls at they alley? From what you guys are saying, there's a lot more to bowling than I expected. I'm thinking I should practice more before I go plunkin money down on a ball.

Thanks for all the input!

Sure thing!

Well, it's difficult to learn with a house ball for a few reasons... first of all, they suck. They don't fit your hand right usually, and are just made to go straight.

Get yourself a $40 urethane ball or so... drill it for fingertip, get a thumb slug and finger inserts... and call it a day. You'll need a bag or sling thing, probably want to get a towel. Investing in shoes is great if you can... a pair of Linds or something. A lot of people like gloves/wrist guards... I don't bowl w/o one. It's especially helpful if you aren't really strong.

Try to figure out what weight you can cup in your hand, with your hand under the ball... without difficulty. That's roughly the hand position you'll want to be able to do...

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by gimp
Wow. I never realized how complicated bowling was. I don't have any sort of hook when I bowl. I just throw it as straight as I can, right down the middle. I'm pretty consistent with it. I'm a little guy, so I use a light ball. hehehe I think it's a women's one actually. It is pink. My average score is about 115.

So, I don't really have an actual bowling style. I just roll the ball. I'm a blank slate right now. I'd like to learn how to do that hook stuff. The lanes I play at are crappy. I can't tell, I just roll the ball straight. Thats just what people say.

Should I start learning how to hook the ball with the crappy balls at they alley? From what you guys are saying, there's a lot more to bowling than I expected. I'm thinking I should practice more before I go plunkin money down on a ball.

Thanks for all the input!

Bowling is a great sport (yes I said sport). Do you throw straight down the middle as in the middle diamond (or arrow or whatever you chose to call it). If so, might I suggest you move either to your left or right (depending on what hand you are, left for left, right for right) Hold your ball like you would a suitcase, and throw your ball down the line aiming for the middle of the second and third arrow. Depending on your stance on the approach this spot could leave to a lot of spare opportunities as well as your strike ball. When you release the ball make sure your hand comes up and touches your ear. The biggest mistake people make is they do not follow through. Also make sure that you bend down when you release your ball with you knees, not your back. Your back should not be bent in a way to suggest laying the ball down on the lane. My ball normally lands right where the first set of dots are on a lane. Try this approach out for a while till you get it down. Only when you master the basics should you go for a hook. For the hook is thrown exactly like the ball I told you, but you throw it out away from the pocket, the further it gets down the lane, the more the pin gets into place and as soon as the pin gets into place the ball will hook towards the pocket and hopefully hit the pocket. But this all depends on hand placement, follow through, release, and everything else that you need to master first.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by RRfireblade




Well if I were you,I'd just get a plastic ball(inexpensive),drilled to fit you so that you can start to develop some form and your own style.Try a few different weights and get the heaviest one that you can swing comfortably.Then when you have a better idea what you need,you can keep that ball as a spare ball and get one of better quality and you haven't lost any money.

Jay

That's a good idea. However, I'm not a fan of mixing up weights with primary and spare balls... I figure it's one more thing that is needlessly changed.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


Hold your ball like you would a suitcase, and throw your ball down the line aiming for the middle of the second and third arrow.

No! Suitcase = BAD! Hand needs to be under the ball, not over it.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Miscue


That's a good idea. However, I'm not a fan of mixing up weights with primary and spare balls... I figure it's one more thing that is needlessly changed.

No I agree, I'm figuring he'd be able to stick with that weight on the new ball if he gets that far.

And don't get me started on the "suitcase" approach,I'm kinda getting tired of this.

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue


No! Suitcase = BAD! Hand needs to be under the ball, not over it.

If your hands are behind the ball it leads to a want to turn the ball which = BAD. If your hands are on the side (not the top) it leads to a more natural release of the ball and a more natural slight curve in it, which allows it to move the 8 boards.

Put your hands to your side and see how your hands fall. That is how you should release the ball. I don't know about you but my hand naturally falls palm side in not towards the front.

[Miscue]

Originally posted by Collegeboy


If your hands are behind the ball it leads to a want to turn the ball which = BAD. If your hands are on the side (not the top) it leads to a more natural release of the ball and a more natural slight curve in it, which allows it to move the 8 boards.

Put your hands to your side and see how your hands fall. That is how you should release the ball. I don't know about you but my hand naturally falls palm side in not towards the front.

You don't throw the ball in a "natural" position. You gotta get under it, maximize your leverage and generate some revolutions.

My bowling vid tip of the week:

https://www.automags.org/~Miscue/bowling.wmv

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Miscue



My bowling vid tip of the week:

https://www.automags.org/~Miscue/bowling.wmv

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue


You don't throw the ball in a "natural" position. You gotta get under it, maximize your leverage and generate some revolutions.

My bowling vid tip of the week:

https://www.automags.org/~Miscue/bowling.wmv

If you throw it from the side you automatically put a rev on it and it is way more comfortable, accurate, and transfers more power to the ball then from behind it.

Your hold of it is wrong for the suitcase hold. Cuff up the ball to where the finger holes are on the side, not the top.

Also make sure when you release the ball that your thumb comes out before your fingers, this will add the needed left to the ball.

Also, Miscue. Why in the world do you snap your wrist like that. That has got to be the worst way you can ever release a ball. Simple 45 degree movement will make a ball that is drilled right go from the left to the right and into the 1-3 pocket. No need to force it. The most rotation I ever put on my wrist is to go from a 1/4 turn (1/2 way between complete back and side) and move my hand to the side. Only that when the lane is real oilly and I brought the wrong balls.

[Miscue]

[sps16]

I've got my own bowling shoes

[Collegeboy]

Originally posted by Miscue

Don't roll your eyes when you have shown to not know what you are arguing about. Who in the world would argue that a suitcase hold is holding the ball on the top, when I have for pages said it is to the side.

Why in the world would you ask other bowlers just learning and throwing a plastic ball to use a technique that you shouldn't even use (Come on snapping the risk is inaccurate and dangerous, drill your ball a little more off center and bam there you go). Why would you want a beginner to snap his wrist when he is throwing a plastic ball none the less?

[Miscue]

Fool. Your hand should be behind the ball, not to the side. The more your hand is cupped, the more leverage you have to put rotation on the ball. Your hand's lateral angle can be used to adjust the degree in which the ball rolls.

Put an a armswing behind that ball, instead of me sitting behind a chair... and it will be a smooth action. It appears abrupt because the camera is frame dropping and I'm not throwing the ball... I'm just demonstrating how the hand under the ball = rev'ing the ball. As you are falling through, your hand follows the rotation of the ball on it's own. I am not manipulating my wrist in any way, the position of the holes and weight of the ball change my hand position during follow through. There is absolutely no strain.

I am not a stroker, I am a cranker with a good amount of roll.

He has said he wants to bowl more often, which to me says he wants to hook it. He's even said he wants to. A urethane ball is more appropriate to do that with.

SHOW ME DOCUMENTATION ON THE NET that recommends your method of throwing the ball. I have never heard anyone recommend that, much like I've never heard anyone recommend kicking the ball down the lane. Everyone will tell you, hand behind the ball... thumb points upward or some slight variation... cupped hand generates more hook.

And my description of a suitcase grip is exactly right. Was the transition from me holding the suitcase to holding a ball too difficult an idea for you to understand? Get your terminology right.

[hitech]

It has been alluded to but not really discussed here in detail. There is something more important than entry angle or ball weight. Making the ball "roll" properly is the most important thing to getting strikes. Getting the ball to "turn over" as it hits the pins make a bigger difference than both of those things. When the ball "turns over" as it hits the pins it knocks the head pin down and sends it "flying" horizontally. When I throw the ball right the head pin comes all the way back across the pin deck on it's side. I can hit light enough (with a 16lb ball) that the ball doesn't take out the 5 pin and still carry consistently with the head pin taking out the 5 pin on it's way back across the pin deck. Of course the problem is throwing it right in the first place.

On ball weight, you should use the weight that works best. That can be hard to determine. You need to get the ball to roll correctly. You need to keep it from deflecting too much when it hits the pins. However, it needs to deflect too much or you will start leaving solid 8s. Generally speaking you should throw the heaviest ball you can throw properly. The key word is properly. There is a lot to that.

I know some of the pros were experimenting with lighter weight bowling balls because they were driving too much. I never did find out what the results were.

On the "suit case" release. That's a very easy way to teach someone. If they want to learn bad habits and be a mediocre bowler it's fine. Otherwise it's a poor choice. Ever see a pro use that release?

[Miscue]

Originally posted by hitech
It has been alluded to but not really discussed here in detail. There is something more important than entry angle or ball weight. Making the ball "roll" properly is the most important thing to getting strikes. Getting the ball to "turn over" as it hits the pins make a bigger difference than both of those things. When the ball "turns over" as it hits the pins it knocks the head pin down and sends it "flying" horizontally. When I throw the ball right the head pin comes all the way back across the pin deck on it's side. I can hit light enough (with a 16lb ball) that the ball doesn't take out the 5 pin and still carry consistently with the head pin taking out the 5 pin on it's way back across the pin deck. Of course the problem is throwing it right in the first place.

On ball weight, you should use the weight that works best. That can be hard to determine. You need to get the ball to roll correctly. You need to keep it from deflecting too much when it hits the pins. However, it needs to deflect too much or you will start leaving solid 8s. Generally speaking you should throw the heaviest ball you can throw properly. The key word is properly. There is a lot to that.

I know some of the pros were experimenting with lighter weight bowling balls because they were driving too much. I never did find out what the results were.

On the "suit case" release. That's a very easy way to teach someone. If they want to learn bad habits and be a mediocre bowler it's fine. Otherwise it's a poor choice. Ever see a pro use that release?

Absolutely, correct roll is what gives you an optimal entry angle. Trick is to learn how to control it.

Yes, heaviest weight that can be thrown properly. Yup. That does not mean heaviest weight that can be thrown w/o strain or pain. It takes some experience to figure out what weight that is, hence why I stress to be careful and to favor a lighter ball when unsure.

[RRfireblade]

Originally posted by Miscue
SHOW ME DOCUMENTATION ON THE NET that recommends your method of throwing the ball.

From Tips from the Pros......

Many people bowled well in the "old days" with the tried and true "Suitcase" release. This type of release had the hand on the side of the ball with the thumb and fingers coming out of the ball at the same time. If, however, you are using that release these days and your average is dropping, something different is needed. That could be a different hand position such as staying behind the ball instead of coming off the side of the ball.

Dana Miller Mackie.

"Old days"

From the Bowlers dictionary.....


SUITCASE GRIP
Holding the ball as you would the handle of a suitcase; promotes reduced hook.

Definitely NOT a recommendation.

[autobowl]

http://www.beachbowlproshop.com/page1.htm

Well, if this is your first ball and you want to start hooking it... you should start off with a urethane ball or a VERY mild cheap reactive - like a Shadow/R if they even exist anymore. If you throw it straight and don't plan on changing that, then you can just get a polyurethane (plastic) ball.

The Scout Urethane in the link above would work out well for a starter ball. Remember that you have to pay for drilling, and possibly a thumb slug (recommended) and finger inserts (recommended) for a finger-tip grip.

Also... most drillers don't know what they are doing. They are bowlers who end up working at a pro-shop and just know how to make holes. There's a lot to drilling a bowling ball. Whoever is working on your ball should seem smart and able to explain very well about how bowling balls work and the nuances of drilling. If he makes fun of other drillers who suck, or talks about how he fixes other people's crap work all the time... that's the guy you want.

You might want to take it to a shop that's not in a bowling alley, where that is all that they do... normally they have to be very good and keep loyal customers to stay in business. However, they often charge a bit more than a bowling alley does, depending. Just check around...

Also, check their prices first before you order one off the net. Normally they throw in drilling for free if you buy from them. Bowling balls off the net come in an unknown condition... typically you'll get a better ball if you buy it from a local shop. I think sometimes they sneak in seconds or something. They can also warranty it for you in the rare case that it is defective. It's generally more polite to buy the ball from the person drilling it. Just ask to see their urethane balls, it doesn't matter too much what brand or whatever... just needs to be urethane.

Now, a urethane ball has a controllable hook (if thrown correctly)... but doesn't have that big nasty curve and snap like the more expensive reactive and proactive balls - which you will not be able to utilize and will hurt your game. Now, they do not curve by themselves. If you do not throw it right, it doesn't matter what ball you use.

Also, don't be macho and go for the heavy bowling ball... that is incredibly retarded and you're gonna suck if you do that. 15 is as high as you should go even if you can handle a 16. There's nothing wrong with going with a 14 either, that's what I use... I can't hook a 15 as well.

DO NOT get it from a sporting goods store.

Another site with more stuff: https://www.bowlingline.com

This is well put. I just happened upon this thread while browsing the forums. Pleasantly surprised to find others on here clearly as in to bowling as I am.

[going_home]

Maybe not oh necroposter.

Miscue hasn't posted for 6 years....

[alpha_q_up23]

At least his name has bowl in it