Hammerhead barrels, and their lies!

[Arson51]

I got by back from D-day yesterday and when i woke up this morning the conversation i had with a co-creator of the hammerhead barrel was fresh on my mind. He was talking to a customer and claimed that the short 8 inch hammerhead was just as accurate as the 12 inch model except that the 8" had less range. I instantly cut in and was like "You are full of it, a ball exiting a 8'' barrel at 300fps will go the exact same distance as one from a 12''!"

he was quick to answer "NO you are wrong i went to engeneering school blah blah....the longer barrel has more distance to accelerate the ball thus it has more inertia! blah blah blah Thats why a tiny bullet can kill some one because of inertia!"

I was confused by his strange use of inertia which I thought was just mass and velocity.... by this time the customer was scared off by the sudden show of nerdyness and I was left saying "Uh Ill get back to you" I tried so hard to get my phone and computer hooked up so i could ask the chat room but it didnt work so i went 3 days not knowing whether Ii or represenative was the true hammerhead.

[p8ntball365]

Inertia is Objects in motion stay in motion unless acted upon by another force. I just finished a commoon assessment in science (yeah last period) about Newton's three laws of motion and using them with a car accident. So maybe there is less friction in an 8 inch barrel, thus making the paintball travel faster. What that has to do with accuracy is beyond me.

[SlartyBartFast]

Doesn't matter how long something accelerates.

Also, it's not inertia. It's kinetic energy that does the damage. That's mass times velocity squared.

Short vs. long barrel is a question of efficiency.

[Korrosion]

I have also had the hammerhead guys try to lie to me. I asked him if he had knowledge that Newton did not, then I walked away.

[Archangel Zer0]

The Hammerhead guys are full of it. It's probably the worst barrel I've ever shot. I wrote a review over on pbreview on it and rated it a 1 out of 10. They flat out lie regarding the accuracy, distance increase, and self cleaning abilities of the barrel. The Hammerhead doesn't even compare to any barrel kit I've shot, and their reps are full of it.

What irritates me is the actual lying regarding the abilities of their equipment. The Tippmann flatline may be inaccurate as all hell, but they don't make the claim of being accurate. They hype the distance increase. Most other paintball manufacturers hype their equipment. Hammerhead lies. Simple as that.

I bought one of the kits when they first came out, and it was the worst $300 I've ever spent. In fact, it was probably the worst paintball purchase I've ever made.

[Jack & Coke]

he was quick to answer "NO you are wrong i went to engeneering school blah blah...."

You should have asked him if he stayed at a Holiday Inn.

You are correct.

He is wrong.

Although there are many "non gun related" variables which affect "range", it has to more to do with the angle of trajectory and muzzle velocity.

In a controlled test (i.e. perfect identical balls, no cross wind, same angle, same exit velocity, etc.), the "range" of the shots fired between the 8" and 12" will average out about the same.

The most noticable difference between 8" vs 12" (shooting attribute) will be efficiency (shots per tank). You'll get a little more with the 12".

Too bad you didn't ask him what Newton's First Law of Motion is.

[Jack & Coke]

So maybe there is less friction in an 8 inch barrel, thus making the paintball travel faster.

"friction"???

That's kinda funny... the only part touching the ball are the control bores (fins), which are all the same length (2 in.), whether you use an 8" or 12".

[Xadion]

The rifeling of the barrel comes into contact with the paintball- hammerheads have been thrue much R&D about how much spin to put onto the paintball to get it to do what it needs to, to become more accurate and I guess distance. There are certian variables that must be met to have hammerheads proform as they should-

I personaly have had awsome proformance with my set of hammerhead barrels and reccomend them to anyone.

I go into more detail in my review www.teamzt.net/reviews/hhbarrel.htm

[spacedtedybear]

Actually, the rep was right in a way. The 12 inch barrel can shoot 4 inches farther than the 8 inch barrel. Probably the 3 most important things you have to remember about projectiles are

1) A projectile is what it is; a projectile. Once it's in the air, whatever mechanism is used to launch it in the first place has absolutely no bearing on its flight path.

2) Horizontal and vertical components of velocity are independant of one another.

3) The only external forces acting on a projectile is wind resistance, and gravity.

The only exception to this rule would be the flatline barrel. Since my summer vacation just started last week, I don't want to think too much physics right now.

BTW: If someone gets in an technical arguement with you, and the first thing they brag about is their educational credentials, they're either lying, full of themselves, or both. Typically it's the latter.

[shartley]

The rifeling of the barrel comes into contact with the paintball- hammerheads have been thrue much R&D about how much spin to put onto the paintball to get it to do what it needs to, to become more accurate and I guess distance. There are certian variables that must be met to have hammerheads proform as they should-

I personaly have had awsome proformance with my set of hammerhead barrels and reccomend them to anyone.

I go into more detail in my review www.teamzt.net/reviews/hhbarrel.htm

You my friend have fallen for hype and hogwash. I would suggest that you actually do a bit of research on how rifling helps (of should I say does NOT help) either accuracy or distance when it comes to paintball.

And from what I can see, if they keep trying to sell the lies, they did virtually no R&D except marketing R&D concerning what the buying public may swallow.

You may have had awesome performance using your Hammerhead barrels, but trust me, it is not because of scientific testing done by them, nor the false information I keep hearing. I read your “review” and almost started laughing. Your testing is pretty much perception, not scientific. In short, worthless as an indicator of anything other than what you personally think, as opposed to what is really happening in a controlled environment.

I truly mean no disrespect, but you are a hype driver’s wet dream.

[Creative Mayhem]

I truly mean no disrespect, but you are a hype driver’s wet dream.

HAHAHAHHAHAA

Sounds like a few SP lovers I know, both here on AO and at the local field.

[Dayspring]

You should see his review on his team site...

You my friend have fallen for hype and hogwash. I would suggest that you actually do a bit of research on how rifling helps (of should I say does NOT help) either accuracy or distance when it comes to paintball.

And from what I can see, if they keep trying to sell the lies, they did virtually no R&D except marketing R&D concerning what the buying public may swallow.

You may have had awesome performance using your Hammerhead barrels, but trust me, it is not because of scientific testing done by them, nor the false information I keep hearing. I read your “review” and almost started laughing. Your testing is pretty much perception, not scientific. In short, worthless as an indicator of anything other than what you personally think, as opposed to what is really happening in a controlled environment.

I truly mean no disrespect, but you are a hype driver’s wet dream.

[shartley]

You should see his review on his team site...

I did read the review. You may have missed me saying so.

[Meph]

He was talking to a customer and claimed that ...... I instantly cut in and was like "You are full of it...... !"

Wow you are a grade A jerk. Congratulations on interfering with somebody's business. It's one thing of a customer asks for an open opinion, but when you rudly butt in with your opinion that nobody asks for...? Who the hell are you to do that to the vendor? Or any company in general?

My opinion of the barrel's performance aside, if the guy is telling the truth or handing out hype.... that is all besides the point. If you had to discuss his false hype then at least have been polite and with enough RESPECT to after the customer's gone. Then start your discussion with him.


I'll make sure to stop by where you work and drive away your customers, to take money out of your pockets. To see if you like it as much as he did.

[SlartyBartFast]

Wow you are a grade A jerk. Congratulations on interfiering with somebody's business.

So I guess you think that there shouldn't be a better business bureau or a consumer protection office then..

Bad business NEED to be interfered with. Snake oil salesmen NEED to be stopped.

If they don't like it, too bad. They have to live with the concequences of the unethical business model they've chosen to persue.

[shartley]

Wow you are a grade A jerk. Congratulations on interfering with somebody's business. It's one thing of a customer asks for an open opinion, but when you rudly butt in with your opinion that nobody asks for...? Who the hell are you to do that to the vendor? Or any company in general?

My opinion of the barrel's performance aside, if the guy is telling the truth or handing out hype.... that is all besides the point. If you had to discuss his false hype then at least have been polite and with enough RESPECT to after the customer's gone. Then start your discussion with him.


I'll make sure to stop by where you work and drive away your customers, to take money out of your pockets. To see if you like it as much as he did.

Isn’t that a bit harsh? If the vendor is telling lies openly at an event, I don’t think it is out of line to call them on it. Good products don’t need lies to sell.

This is not an issue of getting between a business and their customers, it is about pointing out when a business lies about something.

He didn’t drive away customers, he pointed out a lie that a salesman was telling. If the salesman didn’t lie, no comments could have been made. So if they lost any sales it was directly because they lied in the first place.

[Meph]

That's the thing though, EVERYBODY cries "hype" without usually ever shooting it. I've shot it, I love the hammerhead. But I don't think I would say it's superior.

There's no tests to prove it's a lie! There are however tests (or some reviews) that indicate that it indeed does make the promised claims. Can you show me anywhere that proves the hammerhead barrel system is a lie? You automatically roar lie, but where is your data to back that up?

If one is to say it's a lie then you also have to have proof, just as claims of accuracy need proof. They have at least a minimal amount of data. But people saying it's hype/lie have nothing... ever. As usual.


And yes, you are absolutely correct. It's in the right interest to go up and tell somebody in the middle of his sales pitch "YOUR FULL OF IT." Correct you are Shartley.

[shartley]

That's the thing though, EVERYBODY cries "hype" without usually ever shooting it. I've shot it, I love the hammerhead. But I don't think I would say it's superior.

There's no tests to prove it's a lie! There are however tests (or some reviews) that indicate that it indeed does make the promised claims. Can you show me anywhere that proves the hammerhead barrel system is a lie?


And yes, you are absolutely correct. It's in the right interest to go up and tell somebody in the middle of his sales pitch "YOUR FULL OF IT." Correct you are Shartley.

Hype does not always have to be a lie. It can be a stretch of the truth. But when you look at what is being said:

He was talking to a customer and claimed that the short 8 inch hammerhead was just as accurate as the 12 inch model except that the 8" had less range.

You can darn well see it is a bold face lie. If you have the balls leaving the barrels a the same FPS then you will see no difference in range between two otherwise identical barrels (all but length of barrel). That is paintball 101 and physics 101.

Making the statement that the 12 inch barrel (which is identical to the 8 inch, just longer) gives you greater range is a lie. And you don’t need to shoot the barrels to know it.

Also, nowhere did I see that he “went up to him while he was giving a sales pitch”. To me it looked like he was standing right there while the pitch was being made. And sorry, if I was standing there I would have said something too…. not quite in the manner he did, but I would not have let a lie be told.

This has nothing to do with whether the barrels shoot well or not. It has to do with lies being told. And yes, there are tests to prove lies. I have not, however, seen any tests that prove that the claims made are truthful. But that aside, you don’t need to run tests to prove obvious and bold lies. A brick thrown from a bridge will not suddenly fly to the moon. And if someone states that it will, am I supposed to go out and “prove” it is a lie? No. There are some things that reasonable and educated people know to be truths, and know to be lies.

Here on AO quite a while ago there was a similar conversation about how just because a product may DO something well, it does not mean the reasons given by the manufacturer as the reasons for it are true. It had to do with WAS and claims he made. Folks didn’t argue that his products didn’t work well, only that he lied about how it was happening and why.

And I am not arguing whether Hammerhead barrels work well or not, only that from what I have read, it isn’t for the reasons being claimed. And if indeed the salesman stated what the author said he did, he lied. And I am sure you know that to be the case. You may not like how the lie was exposed, but I have not seen you honestly claim that if you had two barrels being identical (aside from length), that the longer one would make paintballs fly farther than the shorter one… given the same marker at the same velocity. Or are you saying you think that claim is truthful?

[Meph]

I'm saying I really don't care what people say. Everybody talks. Especially from their thoughts and ideas, NOT from tested experience. I actually bought a Hammerhead for this very purpose. I want to make one giant testing to get this all over and done with, so I can stop seeing threads like this. It'll be worth the $$.


Do hammerheads have more range or accuracy? I honestly don't know, but I plan to find out. Compared to a Scepter, Lapco Snapshot, and Freak.

But now, I'll add this to the list. 8" compared to 12" or 14" lengths. Might as well. I don't like how you "just know" it's fact/fiction. I like documented proof. I take nothing but. Because people lie and people get twisted ideas. But documentation is just recordings of what happens, not an opinion.



All of this crap aside I still personally do not condone or agree with telling somebody that they're basically an idiot stick right in front of their customers. Telling truth or marketing hype aside... that does not matter! He's doing business, it's how he makes his money. But hey if you agree with people insulting and arguing with vendors then be my guest. I don't share the same.

[shartley]

I'm saying I really don't care what people say. Everybody talks. Especially from their thoughts and ideas, NOT from tested experience. I actually bought a Hammerhead for this very purpose. I want to make one giant testing to get this all over and done with, so I can stop seeing threads like this. It'll be worth the $$.


Do hammerheads have more range or accuracy? I honestly don't know, but I plan to find out. Compared to a Scepter, Lapco Snapshot, and Freak.

But now, I'll add this to the list. 8" compared to 12" or 14" lengths. Might as well. I don't like how you "just know" it's fact/fiction. I like documented proof. I take nothing but. Because people lie and people get twisted ideas. But documentation is just recordings of what happens, not an opinion.



All of this crap aside I still personally do not condone or agree with telling somebody that they're basically an idiot stick right in front of their customers. Telling truth or marketing hype aside... that does not matter! He's doing business, it's how he makes his money. But hey if you agree with people insulting and arguing with vendors then be my guest. I don't share the same.

Okay, so here we have it. You don’t care if it is a lie or not. All you care about is if someone dares say it is a lie when a salesman may be lying. Fair enough.

And you don’t take anything but documented proof about anything. And if you are not faced with documentation you can not make up your own mind about anything. I understand.

As for me agreeing with people insulting and arguing with vendors, when did I ever say that? When did I even insinuate it? I said I agree with people telling a vendor when they know them to be lying. This is far from “insulting” them, or “arguing” with them. If you read my post, I said I would have done it differently, but still addressed the issue.

Also the “just doing business” does not cut it in my book. If it does in yours, then be prepared to have anyone do anything they want, and stay quiet about it. Because I for one will be right there to show you your own words. Hey, they are just doing business….

I can’t help but think there is more to your outrage than what you post, because it just does not add up logically. This being the case, I will back out of the discussion. I have said what I felt needed to be said.

[Meph]

That's fine then. I'll make sure if you have vendors at your field that I stand by their booths and argue with them and drive away their customers based on what I think to be fact of products.

Personally I like to do research or test items myself for me to make up my mind. If you prefer to have your somebody's opinion to make up your mind then so be it. I personally just don't trust people's opinions. I like to test stuff and determine it myself.


And you are indeed correct that he didn't drive away the customer.

by this time the customer was scared off ...

Indeed, had nothing to do with the situation. Right as always Shartley

Just curious, where did you test to find out in paintball that 8" has equal range to 12"? I honestly have never seen anything for testing to argue either way. I've seen talk about 12" and 18" barrels, yeah. But not this situation.

I'm curious because you say it's a straight up lie like you have done the research yourself, so I want to see where you're getting that from is all.

*edit*
I'm not saying that there isn't some review or testing or what have you out there. I'm sure there has to be, somebody has to have done this. Just that I haven't seen it, so I'd like to take a read.

[shartley]

Now why did you have to do that? Are you delusional?

That's fine then. I'll make sure if you have vendors at your field that I stand by their booths and argue with them and drive away their customers based on what I think to be fact of products. .

If I had vendors at MY field they would be on private property not open to the public. That being said, you probably would not be there. But that aside, if you saw ANY vendor who was lying and you told them so, I would not be offended. In fact I would probably have a talk with them afterward anyways since I don’t like lying.

There is a huge difference between trying to drive away customers and hearing a vendor LYING and calling them on it. So you can try to paint it any way you want, but if the vendor was not LYING you could not call them on it. And again, I never said it was okay to “argue” with a vendor. But telling them they lied about something is far from arguing with them. I personally would have said my piece and walked away.

Personally I like to do research or test items myself for me to make up my mind. If you prefer to have your somebody's opinion to make up your mind then so be it. I personally just don't trust people's opinions. I like to test stuff and determine it myself.

Yet you seem fully willing to believe an obvious lie from a vendor than an informed truth from a potential customer…. Interesting.

And you are indeed correct that he didn't drive away the customer.
Indeed, had nothing to do with the situation. Right as always Shartley

You can roll your eyes all you want, but you are correct. I AM right and I am sure that just chaps your rear. Like I said, I think there is something more to your arguments and apparent outrage than the fact that a vendor lied to people and was called on it.

Just curious, where did you test to find out in paintball that 8" has equal range to 12"? I honestly have never seen anything for testing to argue either way. I've seen talk about 12" and 18" barrels, yeah. But not this situation.

It is simple physics. I also know the sun is hot, but I have not run any tests to prove it. And I know that if I drop a lead ball and an aluminum ball of the same size (but obviously different weights) they will both hit the ground at the same time…. Even though I have never done that test specifically.

I'm curious because you say it's a straight up lie like you have done the research yourself, so I want to see where you're getting that from is all.

*edit*
I'm not saying that there isn't some review or testing or what have you out there. I'm sure there has to be, somebody has to have done this. Just that I haven't seen it, so I'd like to take a read.

That is fine. The distance debates have been discussed to death here on AO, and if you did a search I am sure you could find something about it. The simple truth of the matter is, that given things being equal (barrel type, ball size, and velocity) you can take two barrels which are identical except for the length and if you shoot them at the same velocity the ball will go the same distance. The only thing that will change is the amount of air it takes to make the ball reach the given velocity.

Come on Meph, this has been posted so many times on AO by people from EVERY camp, that I find it hard to believe that you don’t seem to get it. Again, there HAS to be another reason for your arguing. More so since I was not the only person who had similar posts here… yet you chose to ONLY address me. hmmmm

We clearly see things differently (or at least that is what you claim), so why not just leave it at that?

[JoshK]

That's fine then. I'll make sure if you have vendors at your field that I stand by their booths and argue with them and drive away their customers based on what I think to be fact of products.

I thought you wouldn't do that? You don't care what people think. And you keep on messing up one thing...they wern't argueing because of opinions...he corrected someone who was blatently lying.

Personally I like to do research or test items myself for me to make up my mind. If you prefer to have your somebody's opinion to make up your mind then so be it. I personally just don't trust people's opinions. I like to test stuff and determine it myself.

Try telling that to Isaac Newton. Why didn't you test the stuff before you call it opinion? You have contradicted yourself more than I care to quote as of now.

And you are indeed correct that he didn't drive away the customer.
Indeed, had nothing to do with the situation. Right as always Shartley

According to the first post it was a combination of both of them that drove away the custom...have you ever heard "It takes two to tango"?

Just curious, where did you test to find out in paintball that 8" has equal range to 12"? I honestly have never seen anything for testing to argue either way. I've seen talk about 12" and 18" barrels, yeah. But not this situation.

It's basic knowlege that it doesn't matter how long the barrel is. It is what velocity the paintball has when leaving the barrel. You are one of those people that believe the earth is still flat arn't you?


-Josh

P.S. I wouldn't take sides if I were you if "You don't have proof".

[SlartyBartFast]

Just curious, where did you test to find out in paintball that 8" has equal range to 12"? I honestly have never seen anything for testing to argue either way. I've seen talk about 12" and 18" barrels, yeah. But not this situation.

Your position SEEMS admirable, but come on man. How are YOU going to test everything?

That and it's up to those making the claims to prove they're true. Not up to others to prove them false.

As for somethings, well anyone with half a clue should be able to understand the concepts without any testing. The above is obvious. Once a projectile has left the launching device, the device has no more effect on the projectile.

Whether launched by black powder, slingshot, catapult, trebuchet, rocket, or compressed air, regardless of the time and energy required to accelerate to final velocity, once free of the launch divice, all that matters is the state of the projectile.

So, same velocity, same range. Same projectile, same accuracy.

Read the spin physics thread in deep blue and you'll know that it's IMPOSSIBLE to improve the accuracy of a paintball due to it's shape and weight and the random forces that are exerted on it during flight.

TK's/AGD's experimentation is available in the data thread in deep blue...

If ANYONE claimed they studied engineering or physics and claimed that inertia was somehow affected by length of barrel, I'd have no qualms calling them an idiot.

[TheTramp]

Meph-
I'm confused as to why you keep saying that there is no "proof" that the rifling in Hammerhead barrels improves the distance and accuracy of a paintball. I thought everybody here knew about the extensive testing done in AGD’s labs. Rifling, porting, different bore sizes, you name it they did it.

Edit: You said it again and again so now saying that you didn’t mean it doesn’t really hold up.

[JoshK]

I'm confused as to why you keep saying that there is no "proof" that the rifling in Hammerhead barrels improves the distance and accuracy of a paintball. I thought everybody here knew about the extensive testing done in AGD’s labs. Rifling, porting, different bore sizes, you name it they did it.

Edit: You said it again and again so now saying that you didn’t mean it doesn’t really hold up.

I thought he was saying that there is no proof that the length doesn't affect the range,

-Josh

[hitech]

There's no tests to prove it's a lie!

Yes there are...


https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=64669

and...

https://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=34429

[TheTramp]

I thought he was saying that there is no proof that the length doesn't affect the range,

-Josh

Yes he was. Distance along with other claims made by the Hammerhead mfg including the "benifits" of rifiling. He's wrong. Between AGD, Warpig, and many others tests have been done on distance and every other thing about barrels and paintball flight.

[Paintchucker]

This seems like a funny thread, very amusing...

IMHO, original poster was a jerk for interferring with the sales pitch.

It seems that this barrel has rifling... Now, I am not looking to start a smooth bore projectile in a rifled barrel debate, but again IMHO, it does put a spin on the ball that a smooth bore barrel does not, like an armson. If that is indeed the case, it seems a longer barrel would in effect put more spin on the ball, and perhaps giving more range like a backspinning flatliner barrel...

[Arson51]

Well Im glad Im more right than that guy. Before that day i really liked Hammerhead barrels. I even met the other(Judson) creator down in OKC indoor, he had a box full of prototypes and even let me use the cocker threaded one to play against him and his son! He was such a nice guy the only thing keeping me from buying the barrel on the spot was the 300$ price tag. Now its not the price tag stopping me, it's the LIES!

It may have been a bit impolite to turn around and cut into a reps sales pitch, but its alot more impolite to lie to that said customer! it was the first thing that came into my mind when my mind made the connection. after that argument repeated itself several times (both parties being stubborn and misinformed). He handed me a print out of an AGP article by Robert Judson, called "Flight of the Paintballs" its basicaly a sumary of Judsons test and observations and many barrels and markers, it didnt back any of his claims up, it was basicaly a recap of everything tom kay told us in the last decade baring his study on spining. It starts out exactly how Meph starts out his argument "i dont trust anyones studies i will do my own"