Automags - Difficult Maintenance & Unreliable?

[Dend78]

bahahahaha i just read this first post holy crap, i must say mags and their two screws can be intimidating at first, then all three places i can think of a leak normally happening wow...

go with a mag there are tons of us here who can help you fix anything that goes wrong with it. no need to send it to a shop for an extra charge due to it being such a pain

[DevilMan]

Pain to work on...well I suppose it is from a point of view.

A classic mag valve with level 7 and all the correct parts (right powertube spacer) is arguably the toughest valve on the planet. Coupled with one of the SS bodies it is a markers that rarely needs anything aside from a few drops of oil. On the occasional decade, you have to replace the spring stack in the reg......

Now, to be honest, and rather "un" mag fanboi.....

Lvl 10 and ULT CAN be a pain in the butt. Especially if you are not used to them, or a mag in general. The problem is only worse and truly is a headache if both of them are out of adjustment and needing attention. In that case it requires that (for ease) that you have a few extra parts that lots of people generally do not have around, like the spacers for the LX, the shims for the ULT...in some cases the stock RT on/off to eliminate issues while tuning the lx...blah blah.
Both of those "add ons" require a bit of knowledge and honesty a bit of experience before just knowing what to do.

I honestly have always been pretty good with working on my own Mags in the past, but every one that has been brought to the shop for me to fix was very hit and miss at to whether I got it exactly right the first time. Pays to know your own marker, and not be afraid to tinker.

Once it is in adjustment, the ULT really never needs touching again. The LX, according to use and oil might need fiddling with a few times a year, if that, under normal circumstance.

So, pain in the butt? I could see it with certain types of mags. The comment from that store owner probably comes more from his inexperience and unfamiliarity with the Mag and a fear that he might not get it right. Not wholly untrue as others have said, but really has a lot to do with "where you stand" as it were.

I'm not saying you're wrong at all Punk.... The way I see it though is this... When you start "UltraFineTuning" the ULT and LX for top notch tongue in breech and sweet spot rapid fire or super light crisp performance you start getting to running a mag on the verge of leaking. When you do that then your tolerances are soooooo close that you run into issues if you aren't careful or even if you are after some wear in. Now if you know how to fix those issues it's no big deal. But it's something that you have to learn and the only way to learn it is to do it. Anymore if you run a quicker hopper on a Level 7 mag I don't see what could go wrong.

It's no different then when you start tweaking an Etek, DM, Mini or any other marker to run ULTRA LOW PRESSURE and still give you good efficiency and/or quiet operation. When you start getting into super tight areas then the margin that you have to keep the air pressure in tightens up with it.

My advice for the OP.... Pick up one of those Level 7 mags that are for sale right now for $100 over in the BST area. Put a tank on it and run it. If you think that mags are fickle or hard to work on or not reliable or crappy made then I'm pretty sure you can turn it around and sell it back off for the same that you paid.

Then you know first hand and not hearsay from all of us "fanbois" and disgruntled PB shop workers.

And any of you that have known me or have ever seen my gun bag know that there are far more than mags in it. And also know that out of all that I have in it more often then not a mag goes to the field when it's game time.

DM

[Lancer X]

Thanks tons for all the replies!

The UWL owner finally made a ruling over the weekend due to my coaxing. Unfortunately, they are going to put all RT and X-Valve Mags in the same class as electros.

So, I think my plan it to shop for a classic AM/MM and stick a ULE body and LVL 10 bolt on it. Thanks again!

[cyberave68]

Thanks tons for all the replies!

The UWL owner finally made a ruling over the weekend due to my coaxing. Unfortunately, they are going to put all RT and X-Valve Mags in the same class as electros.

So, I think my plan it to shop for a classic AM/MM and stick a ULE body and LVL 10 bolt on it. Thanks again!

Thats kinda funny? I can shoot my cocker as fast as my mag does that mean it wouldnt be allowed? Or was it a more biased on the fack that he doesnt like mags. hell i'll do you a favor. Send me your frame and i'll pneu it for you to work with a classic valve. It wont be RT or X-valve.... But it wont be illegal either....

Cy

[DevilMan]

Thanks tons for all the replies!

The UWL owner finally made a ruling over the weekend due to my coaxing. Unfortunately, they are going to put all RT and X-Valve Mags in the same class as electros.

So, I think my plan it to shop for a classic AM/MM and stick a ULE body and LVL 10 bolt on it. Thanks again!

That's just stupid I think. But then it ain't my gig so whatever works for him.

Best of luck to ya... Oh and put a sleeper pnue frame on a classic mag and go play it off....

Should be fun.

DM

[trugz]

I am in no way shape or form to speak much about mags since I have only own mine for about a month. However I owned a couple of spyder, almost every tippmann ever made, a mini and several smarparts markers and I have to say, the automag is by far the most enjoyable marker to play with and the one that needs maintenance the least. I dont know what the guy at your paintball field was talking about but I told that to our paintball field owner who has been in the industry for around 17 years now and he almost felt of his chair laughing...lol! Get a mag and prove that sucker wrong.

[Bagheera]

Thanks tons for all the replies!

The UWL owner finally made a ruling over the weekend due to my coaxing. Unfortunately, they are going to put all RT and X-Valve Mags in the same class as electros.

So, I think my plan it to shop for a classic AM/MM and stick a ULE body and LVL 10 bolt on it. Thanks again!

It sounds to me that in one breath he's telling you that Mags are utter crap and total junk, and in another breath, that they're a threat to everything on the field and these mech markers have to be put in the same category as electros. I love these hypocritical kool-aid drinking nutjobs.

[Konigballer]

I would just say, to add to what others have already said, that AGD markers were designed and manufactured to function with very tight tolerances. This is not like a Tippmann whose design and manfacture is so bone simple, that it can function within very wide factory tolerances. It's like comparing a HK G3 assault rifle to an AK-47, they both function very reliably, but within VERY different design tolerances.

Especially when talking about the LV10 bolt, and RT & X valves, even the tiny differences in o-ring batches MIGHT require you to troubleshoot small leaks if your replacing old o-rings and what not. You might only have to dry fire your mag a couple hundred times to get all the o-rings seated and sealed properly, or you might only have to dry fire it twenty times, every valve is a little different. Once you learn the valve's design, you can usually easily isolate the source of the leak and then fix it. I think thats part of the fun with mags is learning how your mag's individual valve functions.

Also, because of tight design tolerances, if any of your mag's parts are out of factory specs for whatever reason, they will probably cause a problem and need to be replaced. Some used mags have had previous owners who thought they were marker techs simply because they owned a dremel tool... errant drilling, shaving, and God only knows what by the previous owner might not be immediatly apparent until you gas it up and find that it won't shoot right. Thats when you come on AO!

That being said, the design of the CLassic Valve in particular is VERY easy to troubleshoot and maintain. Here is a link to the old AGD maintanance video clips on YouTube. This came out well before the LV10 bolt, but it will help you totally understand how the classic valve works, and how to troubleshoot it:
http://forum.specialopspaintball.com...owtopic=153817

Here is a link to all the online owners manuals:
http://www.airgundesignsusa.com/manual.shtml

[Dalm]

didnt read everyones response just the first couple so if this was already said sorry

mabey he got confuzed on automags-autocockers i know their is some myth about cockers being a pain to work on .... and i mainly shoot cockers i see no problem or hardness to work on a cocker tho the mico line/ 3 way hose is a pain to get on and off the barbs but other then that its preety straight forward i just got a mag for my first time and all i know is its reall old and needed a valve rebuild so i watched some video riped it apart and rebuilt it its got a bunch of orings but other then that it seams preety simple and straight forward dosent seam complicated at all and ive heard nothing but great things about them

In all honesty I was a cocker fanatic before I got turned onto mags. I've owned mech's E1's and my last cocker was an E2 Karni. There will always be a place in my heart for cockers and in my bag as well.
But I have to say my learning curve from my very first untimed cocker to being able to tech one out and fix timing on them without much trouble can't compare with the ease of the mag.

I have a first gen tac-one that I recently decided to pneu and I have to say it is just simply amazing. It feels like an electro..shoots like and electro but doesn't fry or drain batteries like an electro!
Thanks to Cyber, Luke and Tuna for the help on that btw. She's a beauty now and shoots unbelievably smooth.

[cyberave68]

It sounds to me that in one breath he's telling you that Mags are utter crap and total junk, and in another breath, that they're a threat to everything on the field and these mech markers have to be put in the same category as electros. I love these hypocritical kool-aid drinking nutjobs.

Good call on that one...!!!

[chill will]

. No real upkeep just oil and go...

Cy

That says it all. I use to be into cockers, but that changed about 5 years ago. I got into a 15 minute stand off with a mag owner and was marked. We talked about our exchange and he schooled me on the mag. Like you, I was only hearing the bad about mags. Six mags later, because only a mag will allow you to change you gun every year at a fraction of the cost of buying a new one, I am still here.

In an ALL MECH play, you will be the big dog on the field, provided you can play and not spray. If you like to spray though get a pneu mag kit or xvalve with ult.

THEY WILL RESPECT YOU.

[Frizzle Fry]

As a mag lover, I have only these complaints:

- Parts are expensive, and generally MUST come from the internet. Most stores and fields have no RT/RTpro/Xvalve parts whatsoever, and only a limited supply of classic valve bits and pieces. That said, parts are rarely needed.

- Tuning a Level 10 bolt is really hard at first, and though it gets easier over time, you eat a lot of air. You eat a lot of air tech'ing any mag really; they're gashogs (beautiful beautiful gashogs). Again, you rarely need to tech them.

- Due to the modular nature, it's hard to find all-original classics... Parts get swapped so often that you might have the original setup but not the original parts. I don't know why exactly this is a bad thing, but my two or three mag whore friends (like myself) always complain.

- People at fields suck. Refs constantly yell about my mech X-valved single trigger Micromag being "set on full auto", or tell my my Pneumags are too fast, or even whine about my MicroEmag allegedly "ramping" when it doesn't have the software to do such, never mind the fact that the battery died an hour ago and it's in mechanical mode.



Buy a classic mag, get a nice TacOne body and a comfy frame, go from there. Mags are a love affair; if the guy at your local shop "always sees people fiddling with mags" it's likely because those people own 5 working Automags, and are building 5 more out of parts right there on the field.

[pinkanese]

I must say after Saturday I am becoming a fanboi . Bought my mag used. doubt the previous owner ever changed anything in it. I got it out put in a few drops of oil, crono'ed and went at it. Its a lvl7 but still I didn't have a single chop! Not even as much as a barrel break all day, makes me wonder if I really need to install the lvl 10 I have for it .

[Lancer X]

It sounds to me that in one breath he's telling you that Mags are utter crap and total junk, and in another breath, that they're a threat to everything on the field and these mech markers have to be put in the same category as electros. I love these hypocritical kool-aid drinking nutjobs.

These are two different people. The one guy is a local field owner - he's the one that said Mags are hard to take care of.

The other guys is the owner/organizer of the UWL. He's ruled that RT Mags are too fast and will be classified as Class C guns.

I must say after Saturday I am becoming a fanboi . Bought my mag used. doubt the previous owner ever changed anything in it. I got it out put in a few drops of oil, crono'ed and went at it. Its a lvl7 but still I didn't have a single chop! Not even as much as a barrel break all day, makes me wonder if I really need to install the lvl 10 I have for it .

Saturday was my first day of play with my ULE classic mag. So far, I REALLY like it. I, on the other hand, am getting some occasional breaks/chops with my lvl 7 bolt. (I'm using HPA, and a VLocity loader.)

That said, I wasn't using great paint (Diablo's XBall), although I had a decent paint-barrel fit (barrel kit). I am planning to order a high-pressure reg piston, and then I'll install the lvl 10 kit I already bought. I'm betting that will take care of any problems.

[cyberave68]

Saturday was my first day of play with my ULE classic mag. So far, I REALLY like it. I, on the other hand, am getting some occasional breaks/chops with my lvl 7 bolt. (I'm using HPA, and a VLocity loader.)

That said, I wasn't using great paint (Diablo's XBall), although I had a decent paint-barrel fit (barrel kit). I am planning to order a high-pressure reg piston, and then I'll install the lvl 10 kit I already bought. I'm betting that will take care of any problems.

The breaks could be that you are short stroking the trigger. If your not giving it a full pull an return then that could be just you getting used to the feel of the trigg when trying to shoot fast. Unlike an electro where it is a switch and electronics fireing the marker, its how you pull and release the trig that needs a little adjusting. PM me when you get good with it an i will give you a trick to get a higher BPS.

Glad you like it so far... Question: how is it as far as messing with, fixing and all that jazz...???

Cy

[Lancer X]

(duplicate post - ignore)

[Lancer X]

The breaks could be that you are short stroking the trigger. If your not giving it a full pull an return then that could be just you getting used to the feel of the trigg when trying to shoot fast. Unlike an electro where it is a switch and electronics fireing the marker, its how you pull and release the trig that needs a little adjusting. PM me when you get good with it an i will give you a trick to get a higher BPS.

Glad you like it so far... Question: how is it as far as messing with, fixing and all that jazz...???

Cy

Hmm, yeah I just found out about the trigger needing a full-travel pull. Not sure I'm crazy about this fact. I mean, if you want to shoot accurately, jerking the trigger hard isn't the best technique...

Re. tearing down the gun and such - seems to be no problem. If you aren't a mechanically-inclined person, it might be more daunting, dunno. Everything I've had to do to it so far has been simple, and I've had it torn down a few times. I'll let you know what the lvl 10 tuning process is like after I've got it installed.

[Spider-TW]

A loader can only stop chops if it has paint to push with. A level 7 will often give you a chop at the end of your loader since the only time you let it go empty is when you are too busy shooting. Level 10 bolts take some getting used to, but they definitely work.

the trigger doesn't need as much a full pull as a full release, so that the valve can recharge. Trigger stops help if your are a masher like some of us.

[chopper duke]

I've been playing for awhile now. I was a cocker guy through and through for years. Probably because when I first started playing on a regular basis, my best friend had a mag and we were ALWAYS competing with each other. He got a mag, I got a cocker.

I went from cocker to cocker and finally got into PPS brass. I had a 1K and a 2K Blazer and recently traded my 2K for a Pnuemag. When I got it was thinking it was gonna be a PITA to time if it somehow managed to get untimed (like most of my cockers were). Oh. My. God! This thing was so fast for a mech! I really liked it so I began looking for older mags. I came across an old "parts" mini mag I picked up for cheap because I was told it wouldn't shoot.

As soon as I got it, I pulled it apart and when I took the bolt off, something was stuck in it. A quick question on here and I was told to check the powertube tip. Sure enough, the tip had broken in half (I have no idea how, that's how I got it). I was able to remove the broken tip from inside the bolt. I had a spare tip I had picked up in a big gear bag trade. I put it on (spacer and everything else was still in the powertube) and oiled the valve assembly. Put it back in the gun and it shot like a champ. I had a working Mini Mag with matching valve numbers for $35 a powertube tip I already had and a few minutes of my time.

So yes, they are easy to tech. Watch the Tom Kaye videos on you tube. They're old, but I've learned a lot already. I'm sure from now on, I'll always have a mag, or three!

[cyberave68]

There is a few way to fix the pull on the mag. First Air up the gun, and look at the sear arm and where it sits on the back of the trigg. Point the gun down and you should only see a small gap between the trig and the sear arm. If the gap is bigger than say the thickness of a razor blade then simply turn the pin till it comes out more. That is why it has threads and that brass piece. (its actually called a yolk... Not sure why?) Adjust it till it alomst hits the back of the trig and then get a trig stop set screw. Then all you need to do it adjust the stop till the gun wont shoot. back it off like quarter turn and that will take out all the excess travel and help with the choppin a bit....

Cy

[Spider-TW]

(its actually called a yolk... Not sure why?)

It is a yoke. Like an oxen yoke, a rigid harness for control.

[DevilMan]

It is a yoke. Like an oxen yoke, a rigid harness for control.

Well thank you Merriam!!!



DM

[cyberave68]

It is a yoke. Like an oxen yoke, a rigid harness for control.

[blackdeath]

Find this shop mans opinion quite funny.

I played paintball for the first time in 7 years yesterday. The only thing that I did to my 0ld 97 model rt to get it ready was put oil in it. I didnt clean anything. Should have. But I didnt. My only problem was a little bolt stick. Ill get that fixed and all will be well. And the stick wasnt bad enough to make it whare I couldnt use the gun. It was just anoying. I never have had any problems with an automag unless using co2 as the air suply. The first mag I had was baught in 96 and I played with them till 02 when I had quit playing. So you shouldn have any issues with them. Just take care and have fun with it.

[Hotshot33610]

I can kinda see things from the field owner's point of view, having had trouble with mags I've purchased myself.

To me, mags just arn't quite as easy to figure out as cockers are. Everything is nicely contained within the valve, out of sight, while with a cocker you can just look at it and see how it works.

Without the internet and the knowledge of others, I really don't think I would have ever been able to diagnose the problems I've had.

[Lancer X]

There is a few way to fix the pull on the mag. First Air up the gun, and look at the sear arm and where it sits on the back of the trigg. Point the gun down and you should only see a small gap between the trig and the sear arm. If the gap is bigger than say the thickness of a razor blade then simply turn the pin till it comes out more. That is why it has threads and that brass piece. (its actually called a yolk... Not sure why?) Adjust it till it alomst hits the back of the trig and then get a trig stop set screw. Then all you need to do it adjust the stop till the gun wont shoot. back it off like quarter turn and that will take out all the excess travel and help with the choppin a bit....

Cy

Awesome - thanks Cy!

Can you explain more about this trigger stop set screw? Does it go through the trigger, like on most modern electros? Or come out of the grip frame behind the trigger? (I have the classic AGD CF single-trigger grip frame. Will I have to drill and tap a hole for the screw??)

FYI, my high-pressure valve piston is arriving today, and so I'll be installing my lvl 10 bolt over the next few days. This should also help with the chops.

[cfos00]

The level X should take care of the chopping. I had a problem with that when I went to my first mag about 10 years ago from a Nova (built the RT from a Retro Valve and went from there). The level X is a godsend, and getting used to the trigger will/would have helped a ton with chopping too.

I shoot a mag, cocker, angel, and ePGP, and in my opinion the learning curve on the mag is about the easiest of any gun I've ever had. Putting the Level X and pneu-ing the frame are the biggest adjustments my gun has had in a decade, and it took twenty minutes to get both up and running. They're also about as bulletproof as they come. My mag has broken down...once...in ten years...because of one worn out o-ring..and I am by no means special in that right. You made good calls with what you bought and what you've put on it, and should be able to spend as much time as you want on the field and not on the sideline fixing your gun. I'm amazed a field owner would ever have given you that opinion on a mag.

[a.w.e.s.o.m-o]

I bought my first AGD gun in 1991, it was the minimag, I used it till the rt classic was released and have used the classic ever since, it performs flawlessly. Three weeks ago a friend want to try paintball out for the first time. I said waste money on a crappy rental I have a gun you can borrow in storage. That minimag had been sitting in a box in stored away for over ten years.
I pulled it out, didn't take it apart just poured oil into it, gas it up, handed it him and said good luck. The gun played all day with out a single problem, no leaks, no sticking bolt nothin. what other non AGD product can do that.

[KC]

lol. I dont even clean them anymore. Just wipe clean with a rag and oil before use.

I built a few Emags for friends that play maybe once a month... I dont know as they even oil theres!