Useful posts: 7
I will say it once over here. In my opinion... the SA8 is sold as a WEAPON and the above reiterates it is a WEAPON that according to the manufacturer is not safe for recreational use. Use of one probably exposes the user to severe legal liability (not a lawyer). It doesn't matter if you modified it or not, the manufacturer still sees it as a WEAPON and has stated, in writing, they beleive it is missing key safety components for recreational use.Originally Posted by MCB
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess
team id psycho AO-CT
In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate
mighty nice of them....
Useful posts: 7
Oh, I am not necessarily saying that there is not more to it. However, I am VERY risk adverse when it comes to legal issues.
team id psycho AO-CT
hell the clips are worth 100 together LOL just toss the gun i guess is an option for some poeple and keep the clips/// or maybe send in for the first strike stuff
AO Micromag Guy
People who ordered one without reading the explicit warnings on the sites where they are lucky that Tiberius is doing this. A friend of mine considered buying a few SA-8s and that was the first question asked. When it says "not for recreational play" that's what it means! Tiberius isn't (and shouldn't be) obligated to accept returns of any kind on them.
Registered User
It is a markething terms as the difference is within the reg and no relief valve for ''velocity spike'' wich most paintball marker and side arms doesn't have and have been good for paintball use.
All paintball markers are weapon wich are why it shoud not be sold to person under 18years old wich many many people don't do that.
Gift certificate? Doesn't cost Tiberius a penny until we use it to buy a Tiberius marker at full cost from their store as I don't think it will be accepted elsewhere.
If we can get ours at the field legal speed well it shoud be accepted and not be considered unsafe.
Plus most Tiberius users may not have the relief valve working. If they doesnt know the purpose of it and they see it vents many would just screw it all the way in.
AO Micromag Guy
You're right, it doesn't cost Tiberius until you buy from them and use your giftcard. Guess what? They don't owe anyone anything. They just don't want people running around on fields (or off fields) playing paintball with dangerous self defense weapons which are clearly marked as such... If anything the people who thought it was worth "risking it" are being afforded an undeserved opportunity to get a marker that was intended for (and is safe for) recreational paintball play.
It's a fixed velocity valve. Springing and drilling can help, as can adjusting input pressure, but those are basically "jury rigs" or "kluges". Even with a voided warranty, any resulting accident could cost Tiberius a lot of money in lawsuits (which they'd probably end up settling outside of court). It could also cost the field a lot of money in suits because the gun (not marker, gun.) is branded as not being for rec play
Would you really be so selfish as to place the field and manufacturer in jeopardy just to save $100 or so on your marker? Even given that the company has gone out of their way to make sure that people get reimbursed and then some for the guns they purchased knowing that they weren't intended for rec play?
FeedBack is at my HomePage
Alright, well since I currently own a T9 and an SA8, I figure I can put in my .02. Here's the way I see it.
I understand Tiberius not wanting the market flooded with these things. I know the price of the T8 has come down a bit but, with the cost of the mags from Tiberius being about $50 each, a person who buys the SA-8 can ditch the gun and still be the same as buying from Tiberius. PLUS, the SA8 mag has a tool free CO2 changer. Something the Tib mags do not have. Or at least on the ones I have.
Also some are angry with Tiberius for throwing this out as being dangerous. Think of the legal standpoint from them. If they even ONCE mention that they are fine and good to go for PB use, then the millisecond that something goes down you can bet their butt would be over a bonfire! Now that could be a very GOOD reason for them to say what they are saying. They understand how "news" travels in the PB world and it would be suicide to ever admit that they were fine for PB use. That said, I don't think that it is 100% the reason they are saying not to use them. I think they do in general care and do not want someone to get hurt. But if that were the case then they should be moving to outlaw PAINtball in general. But again, it is a 2 fold part as to with Tiberius wanting them off the market it gets more of their product off of the shelf.
Next, lets look at it from the bizness side of things. I don't think that Tiberius would have made and sold to PepperBall (PB) if they (PB) said, you build em, we'll buy em, then we'll sell em for a few hundred less than what you are asking for yours. NOR do I think that was PB's intentions. THIS IS PURE SPECULATION AND THERE IS NO FACTUAL BASIS AT ALL THAT I AM AWARE OF!!!!! I think what happened is this... We know that PB can sell the "POLICE" and "MILITARY" stuff at crazy prices right? I mean what is the Tippman 98 that they sell compared to what you can get in any store? So that said, here's what I think happened. I think PB contracted Tiberius to build them the SA8's. I think they chose the blue and the orange as "safety" colors and fully intended to sell only to military and police forces. AGAIN THIS IS HYPOTHETICAL!!!!! YOU HAVE NO PERMISSION FROM ME TO COPY OR DISTRIBUTE THIS DATA!!!! Let's say that Tiberius built PB 10K SA8's. 5K in Blue, 5K in Orange. So PB sells these on their site for LE and MIL use at say, $500 (NOTE: Not the current price) So they have 10K guns selling for $500 each. So they are doing their thing and all is good. So say they sell 9K of the SA8's to LE and MIL use BEFORE the economy takes a digger and they are left sitting on 1K guns that noone is buying due to cut backs and what not. So say they only paid $100 for each kit from Tiberius due to the bulk contract. They are now sitting on $100,000 of inventory that isn't looking to good on moving out any time soon. So they offer them up at a discount price of $100 a kit to cover the cost they have in them to clear out the stock and get their $$$ liquified so they can pour it into other things. Then us cheap paint ballers catch wind of the deal what you have now is the result.
So PB, did not intend to in the beginning to blow them out at cost. But after making a profit of $400 on each one that they sold at $500 they can stand to do it. EVEN IF say they paid Tiberius at $200-$300 a set, still they have made money on the deal. Because not only have they sold the pistols and mags at a slight profit, but they have sold the balls and rest of the stuff to go with em at a profit.
AGAIN THIS IS UNFOUNDED SPECULATION!!!!! Just the way I see things.
So there you have it... Tiberius says they are unsafe so that they can't be touched if anything goes wrong because you know the second anything hits the media it'll be a poop storm of epic proportions. They also say that to help their cause and get more funds in their pocket. PepperBall says they are fine so they get them off their inventory sheet. And since they say, "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE" on them they can't be touched if something happens on a PB field with one. So their collective *** is covered.
It's no different than anything else in this nanny'fied country. Put disclaimers on EVERYTHING and you can't be touched by the lawyer. Should you dry your cat in the microwave? NOPE!!! But someone, somewhere tried it and so there it goes.
Again this is just my take on the deal.
Now who wants to buy an SA-8 and T9????
DM
For reference, I don't have a PTI price sheet, but I have a few LEO friends that I think I could find out the LE and MIL cost on this stuff.... But tell me what you see here ~>
http://www.pepperball.com/law/products.html#launchers
The DYE LockLids can be found here ~>
http://www.pepperball.com/pdf/PTI_Ac...Sheet_0404.pdf
I see Tippmans, DYE Locklids, VL200 Hoppers, 13CI and 47CI tanks, Scuba Fill Stations and Tanks and 12 Grams. The PTI stuff I see that you can't get at most paintball stores are the "HotShot", the "FlashLauncher" and the SA-4 Launcher.
Last edited by DevilMan; 02-19-2010 at 11:51 PM.
Registered User
I saw a magazine spread of FN Herstal's new lineup and they had an FN branded SA-8/T8 in their less lethal product line. It was all black. FN Herstal makes the Scar & P90 firearms as well as the FN303.
I did buy an SA-8 package but it was only because I already own a T8 & was looking to buy another two magazines anyway. I figured that it was a great deal and if something was up with the gun hopefully I would be able to use some parts as spares on the T8.
I think it is fantastic that Tiberius is doing the trade-in program. It is a very smart thing by them & only means more business. But again they could have put out a warning of this magnitude before Pepperball dumped all of its stock to unwary buyers.
I have contacted Tiberius about this & am waiting on the details of the trade-in program. I am trying to determine if I only have to send the gun in since I would really like to keep everything else.
The people that are whining about Tiberius ruining their plans should load up one of the supplied rounds & try the gun on themselves. The thing is a beast & should not be allow on the field.
What about this J.O. who is trying to sell just the SA-8 gun for $90 when he got the whole bundle for $99. Great job mods by locking his thread down.
Registered User
so if you adjust the SA8 to 290fps will it shoot over 290fps in a way different from any other paintgun would shoot over 290fps after being set at 290fps?
like an unusual form of spiking?
team id psycho AO-CT
hermm is all i have to say
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
I have not seen mind do so. mine is set for 280, and it shoots 280, and I let it sit for a day and rechrono it, and it still shoots 280.
These are not weapons no more than an automag or autococker. Tiberius is just doing the CYA method so they dont get beat in a lawsuit. Everyone running around saying that they are "unsafe" is hilarious.
I could tell you but then.
Yes yes they are weapons and are labeled and sold as such and not for Rec use by the manufacture.
They are made and sold AS LESS LETHAL weapons.
Paintball guns simply say......"this is not a toy". Unsafe is hilarious? Dont even get me started on how STUPID paintball is when it comes to safety. Remember TWO people have died because of Paintball STUPID.
____________
Last edited by Beemer; 02-20-2010 at 08:53 AM.
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
Yes, and cars are not meant to be driven above 70, and motorcycles should not be driven on one wheel. People die everyday doing stupid stuff. If two people died then they were probably doing something they should not have done (I am kinda curious on how it happened).
The facts are that if everyone wears a mask, and chronos their markers under 300 there is no problems to be had.
Safety warnings are nothing more than a CYA expression. The same way MCD puts hot on their coffee, and some kid toys say that an item could cause a choking hazard.
The pressure spikes that one would get with a SA-8 is probably the same thing that someone with a T-8, automag, spyder would get.
I could tell you but then.
^^^^^^You just dont GET IT. Read what it says on the side of the WEAPON.
No other Paintball gun has this engraved on the side of it."NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE"
End of discussion.This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
we are staying civil here. plus breakfast wont be ready for another 30 min or so.End of discussion.
Registered Bamf
Wow.. since when did the above become AO? AO was always filled with reasonable and mature adults (or almost adults) who generally viewed themselves as (and acted as) protectors of the game. Protecting it from agg kiddies, protecting it from (what they viewed as) unscrupulous businesses, and protecting it from negative outside viewpoints as a means of keeping it on the societal up and up.
But now it's filled with people who see no problem with taking a piece of equipment engineered to be used as a weapon (that meaning something meant to cause physical harm and damage), playing garage tinkerer, and deciding its safe to shoot at other people who aren't physically threatening....
Sorry, that seems stupid. Even if your gun shoots 290 every single time, you're still an idiot playing with it. The one time that someone takes a PB to the eye from your 290 fps modified military/law enforcement weapon, either via your negligence or theirs, you are going to get murdered by any mediocre litigator -- you aren't playing with a toy like everybody else, you're playing with military surplus weaponry. The injured party had an expectation that everybody would be playing with toys, and your actions of using a military surplus weapon caused great physical and emotional harm to the injured party and his family. So pay up... probably not cheap. Also, the property owner will get dinged (especially if it's a real field and not outlaw, because they allowed someone to play with a military surplus weapon), probably try to go up the ladder to the retailer, wholesaler(s), and manufacturers too.
Additionally, you probably run a serious risk of being charged with a crime or a few, after all, you're assaulting someone...
Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?
IANAL.
SwallowBleach: It's good for you.
www.seckspb.com: for all your third party needs
Where have all the scooters gone? -BobTheCow
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
I think it is very possible. Would it make a difference if player A was shooting an emag @ 400fps or a SA-8 at 400fps? would that change the tragic event of someone getting killed? The end result is the same; the only difference being the marker. Neither marker would be used according to its owners manual.
I could tell you but then.
ummmmmm NOOOOOOOOOO. But then again paintball got stupid.Does any of this really seem that far fetched to any of you?
Mann.........its still all about THIS.
This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.
NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
I agree. there are way too many people that play that dont understand how it should be played as a "game"
My only problem with banning something like this from a field is that there are too many modified markers out there that do not have every safety feature that they should. IMO if a marker can shoot below 280 I dont see a reason to not use it.
It would be interesting if fields did not allow custom/modified markers. No thumb velocity adjusters, no markers with cut off trigger guards, no safeties, only certain proven electronics, etc, etc. Would we want to play at a field with this many restrictions? Where you are not allow to "tinker" with your marker?
If I take a LLW and modify it. Does it than become a "safe" marker?
Last edited by MANN; 02-20-2010 at 09:37 AM.
Useful posts: 7
Mann, TK and Budd Orr never released statements such as the above. That is the major and important difference. Bought as a weapon and modified is different than bought as a paintball marker and modified. I mean I could modify a large bore revolver to fire paintballs using light charges I imagine, but it would not make it reasonable.. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon.
It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous.
This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball.
I could tell you but then.
Agreed, some even come from the factory that way. The list is long. Like I said Paintball got stupid since I started Playing. That is why ALL my GUNS are set to OEM specs and I have an umbrella policy to CMA.
Registered User
No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people.
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
I somewhat agree, but if you start with product A and product B, and modify A to make B are they the same?
I understand the legal aspect of it. Tiberus does not want people to use these because they could be held liable (especially with some of the wacko judges out there today). If a field owner asked me not to use mine I would have no problem. The same way if they asked me to only shoot 3bps, or mech only. Its their field we have to play by their rules. Same with handguns. On my property I make the rules on your property you make the rules.
I am talking more of the actual product. I guess I dont understand how just stating that a marker is a LLW automatically makes it one.
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
That is sorta what I was talking about earlier. Some of my old markers were not anywhere near as adjustable as an SA-8. Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"No you have to start with something designed and intended for marking trees not people.
I could tell you but then.
They werent and its why they are outlawed. Who says RAMPING is SAFE????? Thats not legal if you follow ASTM standards.
Registered User
Yea, I view this more as a legal concern than a true player's safety concern. I'm not sure on the differences or missing safety features of the T8 vs. SA8, but most fields have an arsenal of LLW clones as their rentals. What are the differences between Tippmann 98s and A5's and their LLW counterparts? A stock Tippmann fits the description of the SA8's lacking safety features since the only reg is on the bottle, and there's no over pressure blow off either.
I am in TN. GO VOLS.
I agree. That is sorta why I am wondering why everyone is upset about this marker not having a low pressure relief valve, and being called a LLW. If half of the gear on the field is not up to standards than who cares about a guy with an orange/blue pistol?
Registered User
This thread is funny.
"modify" and "garage tinkerer" both made me laugh.
So simply turning down a markers velocity is modifying? Using a markers built in and supplied velocity adjuster is tinkering?
Should I get a license to use a Allen key before adjusting the velocity on any of my markers?
If I have a laserer engrave "the world is flat" on my marker does that make it true?
Useful posts: 7
It does - think about a jury of twelve people, none of whom have likely played paintball and some who might be against it and against any private ownership of weapons. All the "convincing" you will try to convince them it was ok to play with will be lost in the above statements from Tiberius stating it was a weapon. Even if it was IDENTICAL (which it is not) to the marker you would be screwed because of what it was called. If any part was at all different, you are just more screwed
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