From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[Beemer]

This thread is funny.

You laughing at me????

[smeek]

It does - think about a jury of twelve people, none of whom have likely played paintball and some who might be against it and against any private ownership of weapons. All the "convincing" you will try to convince them it was ok to play with will be lost in the above statements from Tiberius stating it was a weapon. Even if it was IDENTICAL (which it is not) to the marker you would be screwed because of what it was called. If any part was at all different, you are just more screwed

The question then is why is the SA8 any more likely to hurt someone than a T8 or any other gun if you chrono within the field limit? You guys sound like if you use the SA8 you will hurt someone, when it's not much if any more likely than with any other maker.

If you're lawyer lets antigun nuts in the jury they already failed.

[MANN]

It does - think about a jury of twelve people,

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"

I personally am not worried about a lawsuit. I keep all my markers below 300, and I can control who and what I shoot at. If a person can't maybe they should not be playing. Remember guns dont kill people, people kill people. (same with paintball markers/sticks/knives/pencils)

[Ando]

Oh and remember when we wore shop goggles to play. That use to be the "norm" I am sure those are not "safe"

Reason being Uvex said their goggles couldn't be used anymore.

I'm in the middle with all this, I see Tiberius side and reasoning behind putting this all out on the table. They're telling everyone it's not alright to use on a field to cover their backside. That's 100% understandable. I for one wouldn't want to be shot by one until I know for sure it's shooing under 300 (I grew up in the 300 club. 285 is for LOOOOZERSSS!!!!).

The SA8 was made by a paintball manufacture (Tiberius) and for the most part are exactly like the T-8's. They're "adj", use the same size rounds, clips, Co2, and from what I read most of the internals are the same so why can't they be used? Cause of a warning label? That's the part I don't get nor are they answering. If it walks like a duck and quacks like one then...

IMO...If a manufacture is that worried about their product, they need to recall the whole lot and fix it so the clips are incompatible, none of the parts are interchangeable...ect. No mater what they do next to a recall, they're still going to be held liable due to that fact. They made a "weapon" that was interchangeable with a "big-boy toy".

They've got to be stupid to think the SA8 wasn't going to make it onto a paintball field and I mean that in the nicest way.

[Beemer]

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"

Yup, wait for it. Its the OTHER guy you have to be concerned about.

[Smoothice]

You laughing at me????

me? Never!

[Lohman446]

I can see the same jury ruling on the grounds of:

"You adjusted your velocity too high. You meant to cause harm"
"Your marker wasn't made by a professional manufacturer"
"You used a marker that did not meet astm standards"
"You added one too many shims to your ULT, and your marker fires a round upon airing it up. You shot someone in the "safe zone" and its all your fault"

I personally am not worried about a lawsuit. I keep all my markers below 300, and I can control who and what I shoot at. If a person can't maybe they should not be playing. Remember guns dont kill people, people kill people. (same with paintball markers/sticks/knives/pencils)

There is some point there. I carry a fairly sizeable personal liability blanket policy. If something happens my insurance company is going to defend me and go after the person who sold me the marker. If it was sold and reiterated as not to be used for recreational activity its going to all be on me, and might rise to a level of negligence that voids my policy. I would be further concerned with the criminal side of it if something serious happened. Again, semantics being what they are it is clearly sold as a weapon and clearly noted that it is not safe (nor can it be readily made safe) for play. Keep in mind I also deeply hold a precept that it is "good" to not cause suffering of another. I bend this ever so slightly to allow me to play paintball, because everyone involved knows what is going on. If I ever went outside of the rules and caused suffering it would have negative consequences.

I ask myself another question here. *IF* I allowed my daughter to play (I don't, and frankly it has a lot to do with the "its safe enough" attitude that I can't control of other players) and something happened that was caused by someone using one of these my reaction would probably be far more inappropriate than it would be from someone using a paintball marker. I worry that "this is just like a paintball marker" attitude being described here is a lot like the "15 balls a second when bunkering my opponent is ok". Its not ok, if it were ok the manufacturer would not have sold them as LL and reiterated the point. *IF* you survived my reaction I would push my attorney not only to make sure you owned nothing but to make sure the DA pressed charges - since its not a paintball marker in Michigan those would be felony firearm related charges.

"They should have made the magazines different" Then we would be still having this discussion. These were never intended to be sold to the public, and I would not be surprised if Tiberius is currently looking for a remedy from Pepperball.

[Lohman446]

For those of you who don't seem to get it I will post the manufacturers statement one more time. Because this is the statement you would have to disprove if something were to happen. I will bold the parts that would cause you the most problems. I guess you could try to claim it was to vague, or that somehow they hinted it could be modifed. Most reasonable people would laugh at the assertion considering what they have publically stated. When I agree to play paintball I agree to play against paintball markers, not against less lethal weapons. Mann, some of your statements hold water about other causes. However I use equipment that came from a recognized paintball manufacturer and follow there instructions on the safe use of such. I have a leg to stand on, at least to some degree.

Originally Posted by MCB
It has come to our attention that Pepperball Technologies has released for sale to the public the SA-8 pistol which our company, Tiberius Arms manufactured for them based on their specifications. In the interest of public safety and customer satisfaction we felt it important to provide the general public with additional information about this product. First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs. This product was produced and sold only for use as a less than lethal weapon. It is also important to note that while this weapon appears similar to our Tiberius 8 (aka. T8, Tac 8, Tag 8) paintball pistol, internally there are numerous differences which makes their use in painball dangerous. After receiving and closely analyzing the SA-8, many of those who have purchased them have noticed that many parts are different. Many of the SA-8’s were built with a non-adjustable regulator and all were built with a fixed pressure relief valve. This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball. We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball. Safety is of primary importance in the sport of paintball and manufacturer’s, distributor’s and player’s all have a responsibility to insure the equipment they are selling and/or using functions in a safe manner. Player’s attempting to refinish or rework an SA-8 for use in the sport of paintball are putting themselves and other player’s at risk. Tiberius Arms wants to do our part to ensure that these products are not used in the sport of paintball. Accordingly we will be working with field owners so they can recognize Tiberius manufactured less lethal products that are not suitable for use in the sport of paintball. In addition we would like to offer all of those who purchased an SA-8 Bundle with the intention of using it for paintball the opportunity to return said kit to us in exchange for a $100 Tiberius Arms gift certificate. Those with questions should contact Eric Bratten with Tiberius Arms at eric@tiberiusarms.com


Best regards,
Eric Bratten
VP Sales & Marketing
Tiberius Arms
260.478.2500 ext. 235
260.572.2210 fax
Eric@tiberiusarms.com
Tiberius Arms

The defense "I knew better than the manufacturer" tends to be a very poor one.

[smeek]

I get it you didn't have to repost the statement. My view of the statement is, like you said, Tiberius never expected these for public sale and as such, they probably aren't on their liability insurance, which is why we get such strong warnings to not use them on field. I still don't see how something that can reliably shoot at legal paintball speeds is inherently more dangerous than other paintball markers.

The exchange allows Tiberius to sell guns they have in stock, that are on their insurance policy while they get parts back in stock and guns that might not be covered out of public hands. It's win win for them.

Either way I don't plan on buying either pistol and I leave the decision on if SA8s are used at fields I play at to the field owner, and their insurance. I'm guessing I won't see them too often.

[Lohman446]

I'm curious how many are actually out there. I would *guess* less than 100, and likely less than 50. There may be a lot of discussion about things that most of us will never see.

[smeek]

I wonder that too. I didn't know about the $99 package until this thread, so the announcement may be counter productive as it's also advertising PB's deal.

[Smoothice]

I still don't see how something that can reliably shoot at legal paintball speeds is inherently more dangerous than other paintball markers.

Because it isn't. People want to continue harping on the legal aspect of it. Thats fine. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Fact is these can and do shoot at field safe speeds with NO modifications or tinkering.

Lets hope Tiberius doesn't put out a statement calling for mass suicides...

[DevilMan]

I have a question..... If on every marker sold... it states.... "THIS IS NOT A TOY"


Then what is it?

DM

[Whee McGee]

In my personal opinion (which means bupkis, I know), this is a purely legal statement Tiberius is releasing to attempt to cover their rear if (or should I say when?) an event takes place where someone is injured with an SA-8. Modifications have already been designed and implemented in the tinkerer community to make the relief valve adjustable, which, according to those who have completely dismantled their SA-8s and compared them to Tac-8s, is the main difference between the two and the evident "lack of key safety feature" Tiberius is talking about. If the velocity of the pistol can be set to safe use, and is shown to consistently shoot within the allowed range, and can even be modified to correct the one thing Tiberius MIGHT have a legitimate claim to, there should be no issue in using it (unfortunately, that's not how things work this day in age ).

I have two SA-8s, and while I have not used them in play, I have chrono'd and shot several mags worth of paint within the acceptable velocity range.

[Frizzle Fry]

This thread is funny.

"modify" and "garage tinkerer" both made me laugh.

So simply turning down a markers velocity is modifying? Using a markers built in and supplied velocity adjuster is tinkering?

Should I get a license to use a Allen key before adjusting the velocity on any of my markers?

If I have a laserer engrave "the world is flat" on my marker does that make it true?

It's a fixed-velocity valve. So no, that's not the same.

Because it isn't. People want to continue harping on the legal aspect of it. Thats fine. Whatever helps them sleep at night.

Fact is these can and do shoot at field safe speeds with NO modifications or tinkering.

Lets hope Tiberius doesn't put out a statement calling for mass suicides...

Really? Screw your field over then. Non-lethal accidents occur all the time at fields with 280fps velocity limits, and if you'd ever worked at a paintball field you'd know that the standard recommendation of lawyers in most cases is "settle". Include the fact that someone is using an airgun branded specifically as a weapon with cautions against recreational use and the settlement would cost your field more than they probably have. It's also ILLEGAL so perhaps you should consider that before taking such a silly risk. Granted you won't get in trouble, your local field will and the MFG will, so I guess that makes it OK?

I spent $85 shipped on my SA-8 with 2 magazines... Tac-8s with one mag can be found for as low as $185. Take into account the $100 gift card from Tiberius, and you could have a FIELD LEGAL Tac8 for what essentially amounts to $160, plus a free magazine ($40 value). That brings the cost to $120 for a new Tac-8 with 2 magazines. Why cause trouble if that's the alternative?

[MANN]

It's a fixed-velocity valve. So no, that's not the same.

I can adjust the velocity on mine fine. There is an allen head that allows you to adjust the pressure on both of my SA8s

[MANN]

I'm curious how many are actually out there. I would *guess* less than 100, and likely less than 50. There may be a lot of discussion about things that most of us will never see.

I would guess over 200 SA-8 at least.

[RehKal]

Ultimately I think it boils down to the fact that the SA8 is sold as a WEAPON, not as a marker. That should be simple enough, regardless if all the internals were exactly the same. It's designed, classified and sold as a weapon. Which makes it a weapon. Not something to use on a paintball field.

If I were a field owner I wouldn't allow them to be used on my field, simply for the same legal reasons that Tiberious put out their statement. You can bet if anyone is ever hurt by one of these, both the owner of the SA8 AND the field owner will be sued. And as with any kind of extreme sport, it's probally just a matter of time until it happens.

[Mongoose]

I gotta say i am 50/50 on this.
I can see truth in both sides and each has a great argument.

My thought is, If they are both basically the same, Why not just use a tac 8?????

What benefits are gained by using the SA-8 on the paintball field?

[RehKal]

I gotta say i am 50/50 on this.
I can see truth in both sides and each has a great argument.

My thought is, If they are both basically the same, Why not just use a tac 8?????

What benefits are gained by using the SA-8 on the paintball field?

I believe the idea is that's its cheaper.

Which brings up another good point. Are you going to be happy with yourself if you hurt someone in your attempt to get something cheaper?

[cougar20th]

. I mean I could modify a large bore revolver to fire paintballs using light charges I imagine, but it would not make it reasonable.

The militarty has"bullets" that are what you speak of. I used to have some. They definatly were not something you wanted to get hit with.


Now ive got a question about the SA8 & PB fields. Someone uses a SA8 injures another player. Will the fields insurance cover the injury or not. Im thinking mostlikly not due to the "Not for recreational use" engraving. That & the fact that is is NOT a paintball gun.

That is enough of a reason for any field to ban the SA8.

[Frizzle Fry]

That is enough of a reason for any field to ban the SA8.

qft

[MANN]

Will the fields insurance cover the injury or not. Im thinking mostlikly not due to the "Not for recreational use" engraving. That & the fact that is is NOT a paintball gun.

There was a time when I was trying to purchase field insurance. The would not allow full auto/markers above a certain bps. All markers that could not be controlled below 300fps were also not allowed (automag with rt). How many fields do you know of that enforce this rule? Also is there any way of telling who shot who. Half of the time you dont know who shot who.

[Frizzle Fry]

There was a time when I was trying to purchase field insurance. The would not allow full auto/markers above a certain bps. All markers that could not be controlled below 300fps were also not allowed (automag with rt). How many fields do you know of that enforce this rule? Also is there any way of telling who shot who. Half of the time you dont know who shot who.

The problem is that most fields, even when they're completely in the right, settle outside of court. That's mostly because there just isn't that much legal precedent and both lawyers and insurance companies would rather just make things go away. If someone says "A player was using a gun made for shooting pepper spray projectiles and the field owner was OK with it" (not quite accurate, but that's something like what would be said) then a judge will find in their favor for whatever is asked in damages. That's encouragement not to settle (and settling outside of court is already rough on fields).

[BigEvil]

Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

[MANN]

Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

according to some on mcb tiberious is saying that there are "too many differences".

[Lohman446]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

[classicmagplayer]

All the liability and butt covering aside.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball."

Excuse my ignorance of the backstory, but how in the world did that happen?

Has anyone asked if Tiberious will convert them over to Tac 8s? It shouldn't take much.

Why convert when you can exchange? More cost effective to simply give the customer a Tac 8 off the shelf and resell the SA-8 than it is to take apart the SA-8, change out parts, give the customer their converted marker, reassemble the parts into a new SA-8, and resell it.

[DevilMan]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

Well since they manufacture Bow N Arrow kits, BlowGun kits, and you can even use mortars and sling shots to propel a paintball, not to mention the mines and grenades, I'd be hard pressed to call ANY of those things TOYS. And if you are trying to decode what is and is not a weapon, well I think that's going to be a can of worms all in itself.

Again, there are markers that are on the field that have no safeties on them, and there are those that have no trigger guard. There are some that are even home made to some extent.

DM

[DevilMan]

All the liability and butt covering aside.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball."

Excuse my ignorance of the backstory, but how in the world did that happen?

Why convert when you can exchange? More cost effective to simply give the customer a Tac 8 off the shelf and resell the SA-8 than it is to take apart the SA-8, change out parts, give the customer their converted marker, reassemble the parts into a new SA-8, and resell it.

Because it's not a straight exchange. The deal is a $100 credit. That still leaves the person making up another $85+ in some cases. Does Tiberius have to do this. NO. But it's not a straight trade.

DM