From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[DevilMan]

If I shoot someone with something that was manufactured and sold as a weapon I am not playing a game. If injury results civil issues might be a secondary concern.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

[classicmagplayer]

Because it's not a straight exchange. The deal is a $100 credit. That still leaves the person making up another $85+ in some cases. Does Tiberius have to do this. NO. But it's not a straight trade.

DM

Doesnt really matter that it is not a straight trade, they wouldnt do a free conversion either.

They should offer the trade up in addition to an option for a return for full refund. Giving a customer no other option but to spend more money is not customer friendly at all.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball." Were sorry for your misinformed purchase, you can now spend more and get what you thought you were purchasing in the first place.

By not offering a refund they are leaving one and only option for customers who dont want to spend more money, resell the gun to someone who doesnt know any better. Here is a perfect example: http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/p...tol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

[DevilMan]

Doesnt really matter that it is not a straight trade, they wouldnt do a free conversion either.

They should offer the trade up in addition to an option for a return for full refund. Giving a customer no other option but to spend more money is not customer friendly at all.

"We realize that paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8 didn’t realize that what they were purchasing wasn’t suitable for paintball." Were sorry for your misinformed purchase, you can now spend more and get what you thought you were purchasing in the first place.

By not offering a refund they are leaving one and only option for customers who dont want to spend more money, resell the gun to someone who doesnt know any better. Here is a perfect example: http://splatme.co.uk/paintball-gun/p...tol-marker.htm first link when searching for "SA8 paintball" on google.

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM

[Lohman446]

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

blah blah... you are trying to split hairs. Tiberius is trying to cover their butt, and that's all fine and well. If your marker chronos within the field limit then what's the issue? Do you honestly believe that the SA8 is the only thing out there that is capable of putting out a hot shot? What about when the inline reg goes bad and you start pumping 800 PSI to the valve. I bought an angel years back that when I took it to the chrono it was showing 450 and 475 FPS.... Did I play with it??? NOT UNTIL I FIXED IT, and got it within the field limits.

You all talk about the mag and the relief valve. Yes that is true it has one. Have you ever turned your mag up to max PSI before it starts leaking out the back and see what FPS you are putting down range? Why don't you look and see, and I think you'll find that even with the safety blow off, that it can still push up to almost 500 FPS before it lets it leak off.

DM

Difference between being marked not a toy and not for recreational activity. Severe difference between being marked not a toy and a manufacturer specifically stating it is not intended or safe for paintball.

[classicmagplayer]

The thing is Tiberius did NOT sell these. PepperBall did. It's like a car lot selling you a chevy that they know is leaking and about to go in the crapper but they sell it to you anyway, then you get stuck on the side of the road and want to blame Chevrolet for the issue. It's not up to the maker. Tiberius did not make these for the "public" so to speak. So they are trying to offer up your money back since the package cost you $100. They are giving you the $100 back towards one of their products.

Tiberius is not needing to or responsible at all with the program. I don't fault them for what they are doing and find it very nice of them in fact. But this has grown and grown into a matter of what can and can not be used on a field to launch a gelatin ball filled with colored goo at each other. The way I see it, you play by the chrono rules, the full auto rules, the safety rules, then you are good to go.

In terms of "Full Refund" that should come from PepperBall NOT Tiberius.

DM

I agree in that case, PepperBall should be the one doing the refunding.

Its a bit ridiculous that Tiberius is offering this exchange up program, but the PepperBall site doesnt even mention something like "This is not suitable for recreational paintball use".

Its like PepperBall is running under the assumption that paintball players will never hear of the SA-8 and the price for the gun and 2 clips vs the cost of the Tiberius models.

[MANN]

You will still end up losing if you send it to tib. Most of the shipping on the markers was 20 bucks, and shipping to tiberius and paying for shipping back to you for your new marker will also add up. You figure you are going to spend 140 for 100 worth of product.

[RehKal]

Well since they manufacture Bow N Arrow kits, BlowGun kits, and you can even use mortars and sling shots to propel a paintball, not to mention the mines and grenades, I'd be hard pressed to call ANY of those things TOYS. And if you are trying to decode what is and is not a weapon, well I think that's going to be a can of worms all in itself.

Again, there are markers that are on the field that have no safeties on them, and there are those that have no trigger guard. There are some that are even home made to some extent.

If you shoot someone with something marked as "NOT A TOY" then what are you doing?

You "PLAY" with TOYS??? What do you do with paintball "GUNS" & "MARKERS"

Pretty much every sport has an item in it that if used incorrectly can kill or maim either the user or someone else. Look at bowling? Darts??? Golf?? Horseshoes? Hockey? OH NO what about BASEBALL??? Is a Baseball bat a TOY? If used incorrectly it can kill you no???

DM

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

[DevilMan]

That's just it. All those things are designed, tested, manufactored and approved for use in the sport of paintball. The SA-8 IS NOT. It's that simple. The SA-8 IS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL. Why take the chance and use it?

This isn't about misusing something made for the sport. This is about using something that isn't designed for the sport.

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

My point is, if the SA8 can be made to operate within the guidelines then there should not be an issue. You can run on the hypotheses all day long about what may or may not happen, but if you look at the founding of the carbon fiber bottle I bet you'll also find that they were not made initially to be used in paintball.

Do you see any warnings on radio controlled trucks that say NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL???? Have you ever seen someone use one on a PB field? If not go to a scenario sometime. Have you ever seen a warning on a wooden knife that says NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL? Were they made for paintball? NO!!!! But they can be used if found to be used in a safe manner. Can you hurt, maim or kill someone with a wooden or plastic knife? YES. Are they allowed to be used? YES. If done so following proper safety guidelines.

The definition between "WEAPON" and "TOY" is about as grey as the definition of "KNIFE", "TOOL", "CUTTING UTENSIL" and "EDGED WEAPON". A pen and pencil can be used as a WEAPON. A piece of newspaper can be made into a WEAPON. The point being, the definition of such covers such a wide range of things, that saying anything that can be used to cause harm is a "WEAPON" then you'll have to start getting fingerprinted to buy fishing line, guitar strings, paint stripper, bleach, and 90% of anything else out there. And if you think for a second that something can't be weaponized, then just take some to a prison and give it out to the inmates and see what they come up with for ya.

DM

[DevilMan]

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?

Just because they can be adjusted to shoot at a higher FPS than 300 FPS does not make it an automatic ban. If that were the case most guns out there would not be allowed. If it is found that it can't safely operate BELOW that or whatever limit the field sets then YES it should not be used.

Right now there is no foundation that it can not be operated within the limits.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

"IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is wrong

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

[DevilMan]

I agree completely.

"It should be outlawed because it was made to be a "less-lethal"* personal defense weapon" is more accurate.




*"Less-Lethal" is very different than non-lethal. It doesn't mean it won't hurt or kill you, it means it's less likely to hurt or kill you.

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

[DevilMan]

They werent and its why they are outlawed.

I don't think that saying that goggles are OUTLAWED is a true statement. I think they are not used as much anymore because it hurts to take a PB in the face. BUT the wearing of goggles such as those for ski'ing, dirt biking, and such is still allowed.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

Are cars made to be LESS LETHAL Weapons? NO! But if you try to run someone over, you'll get tagged with "Assault with a deadly weapon" Same as a ball bat, a crow bar, an axe handle and many other things.

So are you saying that all other paintball guns are NON-LETHAL?

So since PepperBall sells those Tippmanns does that mean that all Tippmanns should be outlawed as well? Since PB sells theirs as "LESS LETHAL WEAPON OF SELF DEFENCE"???

DM

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

[DevilMan]

BTW, I don't think PepperBall should be responsible for offering a refund. It is NOT their duty to ask you what you plan on using the SA8 for. It is not their responsibility to make sure you don't shoot a cat, a road sign, a tree, a skunk, a dog, your principals car or even each other with it. They state that they are free and clear of any liability on how it's used when you buy it.

It's not on them to fix what you break. This nanny'fication of the masses is going to kill us all.

Do any of you know the rules and regs on the purchase of ATV's?

Any of you ever ride ATV's????

Well here are the rules that more than likely you broke...

Age of Operator................ ATV Engine Size
Under 6 years of age......... No operation recommended
Age 6 to 11..................... Under 70cc.
Age 12-15....................... 70-90cc.
16 years and older............. Over 90cc.

Do you realize that you are legally able to DRIVE A CAR ON THE ROAD!!!! At the same age as you are allowed to ride a quad with an engine greater than 90cc!!!!!

More reading....

Power and Speed. The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CSPS) has issued an ATV Safety Alert regarding engine size suggestions for young riders. The CPSC considers that an adult size ATV has an engine of 90cc and greater and suggest youth be at least 16 years old to operate an adult size ATV.

AN ADULT SIZED ATV IS 90CC OR GREATER!!!! Anyone over 18 years of age on this site ever ridden a 90CC quad????

So do any of you have any idea how big a 90cc quad is???? Compared to a 12-15 year old kid? Even a SMALL kid is still way big on such.

Do you realize that if you go into a store and tell the sales person you are looking for a new quad for your 13 year old son, that by LAW they can not let you buy any quad in the store over 90cc in size???

If you think this is irrelevant to the subject it's not. It goes hand in hand with the release of liability. If you go into a store and tell them you want to buy a quad for your son for his birthday they can ask you anything in the world about him, and as long as you choose not to disclose his age you can buy what you want. If you state that you want to buy something that you and he can share and you tell them the age then you'll be sharing a 90cc or less with him. The liability for the use is transferred from the store to YOU upon the purchase of the vehicle. IF the store says, sorry this can only be used to pull a wagon and nothing else, and you use it without a wagon, then the fault is on you. It is NOT the companies responsibility to make sure you use their product correctly. This has been found and proven when a few of the major cities went back on the firearm manufacturers and tried to sue them all for damages caused by firearm use. If there was a homicide or a suicide or a rape or anything that caused damage to the city, they tried to get the firearm makers to pay them for the damages. It was thrown out.

DM

[DevilMan]

Very true, but the fact of the matter is that these are branded as less-lethal weapons. I'm aware that a car, frying pan, or even a "shod foot" (or foot with a shoe on it) can be considered a weapon in court, but they are only considered such under circumstances when they are used as a weapon. A gun, tazer, or pepperball launcher is considered a weapon even when it's not being used, brandished or wielded.

I agree with you completely about the function of the gun; if it works it works, if it's safe it's safe. Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way from a legal standpoint and I can understand 100% why Tiberius doesn't want these used for paintball, and why fields won't allow them. Frankly, I'd just obliterate the markings on mine and use it. If you don't remove the signs that it's an SA-8 not a Tac8, you're putting your field and the company at risk.

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

I'm fine with a field saying not to use them.... IF they are found to be UNSAFE. There is nothing that points to this. It's the same as a field that says NO RED PAINT!!!! If you shoot red they pull you. Is there any reason that you shouldn't be allowed to shoot red paint for safety reasons? NO! But it's house rules. They say not to use it, so don't use it.

The point I am trying to make is before everyone goes out and starts up that they are in fact unsafe, why don't someone offer up proof or a logical reason. I'm sorry, but "Because I said so" don't fly to far with me. If Tiberius wants to clear their name from the issue, which they have done then all is cool on their side. If they can be found to be faulty or unsafe in use as dictated by the field then sure pull them. BUT, don't do it just because the maker wants them off. Am I suggesting that I'd like to see someone get hurt or killed from one of these??? NO!!! BUT, until some concrete data comes to light about a malfunction of sorts that is KNOWN to be a danger they should not be limited.

It's like saying, "Because your car don't have a parking brake it's a danger" Why???? Should it have one? Is it a safety device of sorts? But is it illegal that yours is broken or don't work or out of adjustment? Can you get killed because of it's in operation??? Possible, but not likely.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

See I don't agree with this FF. If you KNOWINGLY take the markings off and go to a field that STATES they are not to be used, then you are still violating the policy.

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

[DevilMan]

Correct, but like you said, in function they're safe. I agree that if they shoot 280 they're fine. If you want to make yours into a Tac8 with some clever paint work then there won't be a problem.

The problem arises when you have a marker on the field that says "Not For Recreational Play" and is listed as a less-lethal self defense weapon. It's not a safety issue it's a legal issue.

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

[Frizzle Fry]

True enough, but I would prefer that it not be an issue with the field in general. Meaning I would rather have it properly done from the top down. Not try to fix it from the bottom up. I would rather the rules and laws be in such a manner that there is no question on the lower level. Meaning, the rule states 280FPS. Your gadget, gizmo, whirlygig, apparatus, device, gun, marker, et al meets the criteria then you are good to go. Your gun decides mid day to malfunction then you get pulled from the field and get it fixed. You aren't allowed to use it. As long as it meets the safety guidelines.

I would rather it be logical and proper and not a reaction and charley foxtrot.

DM

Agreed.

I've worked at two fields over the years and we have enough trouble with people keeping their $100 blowbacks under 300fps and their $1000 electros under 15bps. All it takes is some moron overshooting a 14 year old kid and giving him a "bloody bruise" and suddenly the waiver means nothing... Then you're in court talking to a judge about field netting and referees for 6 months, and it all culminates with your insurance company saying "Give them lots of money and they'll go away, or we'll give them lots of money and we won't go away".

Frankly, the best solution would be to have assessors from major insurance companies meet with field owners, players, ASTM committee members and paintball manufacturers so they can have a real understanding of what goes on. Once a precedent is set (other than the current one which consists of "pay the man") the cost of running a field will go down, so will legal tension about such simple issues. Right now the laywers and insurers shrug, and the judges hear and see "gun" and think "victim".

[Lohman446]

There are two issues here, and they seem to be getting confused. Two arguments come up:

Argument A: The SA-8 can be made as safe as any paintball marker. <---- for the purpose of discussion I am going to leave the can alone on this. I am going to note the manufacturer has said they cannot be but I will accept that there may be legal reasons they have said it.


Argument B: Using an SA-8 exposes the user and field to unacceptable liability risks.

The arguments are not mutually exclusive. They could both actually be true. The thing is, I don't believe any paintball marker 100% safe. Injury can (and does) result. Legal claims against those responsible can (and do) result. The difference is this. If I am using a paintball marker at least I can look up and say with full confidence I was using an item intended to be used in a recreational activity - specifically the game of paintball. I cannot say this with an SA8. I can say that "but I modified it so it would work" but the counter that the manufacturer EXPLICITLY stated it could not be done safely would overwhelm me.

As I said on MCB. I am pretty comfortable allowing others to play with whatever on the paintball field as long as it will consistently chrono at the field speed. I accept the level or risk involved. Do note that I believe the risk high enough that my child does not play paintball, and will not at a commercial field in the current environment of stupidity. I would not use an SA8 on the field, even one that had been modified and demonstrated to shoot at a "safe" speed. The liability risk (and I maintain it would be both civil and criminal) risk is FAR too high for me. I am amazed at the amount of risk I perceive people willing to take for a couple hundred dollars. I pay good money to isolate myself from that risk.

Either you are telling me my perception of the liability issue is totally wrong. Not just overblown, wrong. Of course I will hear "well you are not a lawyer". I have actually discussed paintball with my lawyer and insurance agent in the past. No one who tells me "you are not a lawyer" has any intention of seeking council on it, its a straw man defense. I am amazed at the amount of liability some people seem willing to accept to save a couple hundred dollars. I think I have to agree with Beemer on the mindset of players on that one.

And yes, it would be an issue. Think of these questions if someone is injured.

"So you used a modified weapon to play the game with and it resulted in injury?"

"The proper equipment would have cost you $200 more, is that correct?"

"The manufacturer offered you full credit to the purchase of the proper equipment"

I will ask you this simply. Was it worth it? Consider it for a moment. Beemer is right. My safety is worth far more than $200 to me. So is yours when we are playing. Unfortunately in modern paintball it seems I cannot expect the same consideration.

[DevilMan]

Lohman, I don't read the note from Tiberius as stating that the SA8 can NOT be adjusted to be safe. I read it as it's stated. It was not PRODUCED as such. That's all I'm getting at. Again my stance is just because it was not MADE to be used on a paintball field does not mean that's its unsafe to do so.

BTW, the SA8 I currently have in my possession does NOT have on it "For Police and Military Use Only"

You see, I'm not opposed to safety being enforced on the field. I'm opposed to the reaction of masses in that it's "DANGEROUS" and a "WEAPON" and all the other crap. You as a shooter should know this. Can you tell me ANY firearms manufacturer that supports or endorses "hot loading" a cartridge?

DM

[Coralis]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?

[Loguzzzzzz]

All I'm going to say on the subject is that if me or my wife get hurt by someone shooting one of these guns they can expect criminal and civil action being initiated. So I have to ask is it worth it ?

Sounds like a threat. . . . .People of Ocala Florida and surrounding areas be warned!!!


Does this mean that you are going to run around the field with a chrono too and check every gun that you or your wife get eliminated by too? Afterall they could be shooting in excess of 300 fps. which is in violation of the ASTM standards for paintball markers and I am sure is puishable in some way if you really looked hard enough. That is the only real difference other than a warning meant to protect the manufacturer.

I guess you will be checking every gun on the fields where you play as well. Since most of the time, I never know who has eliminated me. Good luck with that one.

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

[Coralis]

If you are worried about being hurt then maybe paintball is not the sport for you, I have had welts that did not completely fade in over one year. Paintball is a dangerous sport and has assumed risks. All I can say is you better have a hand chrono ready in case you get welted in the field it, it could be an outlaw paintballer shooting hot.

One of the assumed risks is that people on the field will be using equipment designed for paintball not less than lethal weaponry. Paintball is not a dangerous sport in my 24 years of playing I've seen only a handful of injuries any only one caused by a paintball and it was the kids own fault for taking his mask off in a game.

[RehKal]

All of those things WERE NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL in the beginning, BUT they were found to be safe as such. Has any testing been done on the SA-8 that deems it UNSAFE? NO. It simply says that it was NOT MADE FOR. Neither was any of the other stuff in its initial form. Was WD40 made for CIVILIAN use??? NO!

My point is, the SA8 may not have been produced FOR paintball. BUT, there is nothing that says it can't be used as such from a safety standpoint. The only "claim" out there is that it wasn't MADE as such.

If the SA8 can be found to operate within the safety parameters set forth by the field to comply with, then that's where it should be. IF it is found that it can NOT perform within the legally set/sanctioned safety guidelines than YES pull it. Right now, I see no difference in it's ability to pull a hot shot any more than any other marker on the field. They are ALL capable of shooting above the 300FPS legal limit. (TigerSharks excluded ) But as long as it can be adjusted as it stands in stock form with the given tools the same as any other marker can be without altering the item then it should be found to be OK to use. Has anyone found that its unsafe to use? NO. There has only be the statement from Tiberius stating that they were not produced to be used in this manner. SO WHAT! Most of the stuff was not made to be used in this manner.

DM

AGAIN!!! Do not read this as I find the SA8 to be 100% safe to use on a PB field. BUT, I do believe that saying "IT SHOULD BE OUTLAWED BECAUSE IT WAS NOT MADE FOR PAINTBALL" is WRONG. If it can be found to not be safe to operate then sure thing pull it off. BUT since these WERE MADE FOR POLICE AND MILITARY USE... Don't you think they are built just as safe as anything else that you'll find on the field?....

You apparently didn't read the statement Tiberius released about the SA-8. Lemme quote some lines for you.

"First, it is important to understand that this product was never intended for any recreational activity and was not designed to fire .68 paintballs."

and

"This means the SA-8 is missing key safety components designed for the sport of paintball."

That's pretty clear that the SA-8 isn't intended or safe for paintball. And are you really saying most of the stuff isn't made for paintball? So all the markers, masks, protective gear, hoppers, etc aren't made for paintball? If not made for paintball what are they made for? Marking cattle or trees?

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

It's designed to bring a person to their knees and make them stop whatever they are doing.

And quite frankly, a standard paintball marker ain't gonna stop someone on a rampage.

[Smoothice]

And actually no I don't believe the SA-8 was made with the same safety considerations that all other paintball gear. The SA-8 is made TO STOP PEOPLE AS A LESS LEATHAL WEAPON. Which means it WILL HIT HARDER. It is designed to bring a person down, to stop them without killing them. That's why we also have modified grenade launchers and shotguns that shoot beanbags. This thing isn't designed to give someone a tiny bruise and bit of a string when it hits them.

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

[RehKal]

so when loaded with the same make and model paint and shooting at the same velocity as a tac8. You think an sa-8 will "hit harder"?

So the name alone will cause it to hit harder? Do you work for smart parts or do you just believe in their marketing?

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement.

[Smoothice]

The name has nothing to do with it. It's the internals. Which Tiberius have allready said can't be easily changed to be the same as the Tac-8. It's the safety mechanisms in particular that Tiberius says ARE NOT THERE.

Pay attention and don't insult, it degrades your arguement.

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?

[RehKal]

Please explain to me how if two markers are shooting at the same fps with the exact same paint how 1 can "hit harder"?

Have you done extensive shot to shot testing on the SA-8? Or did you shoot two or three times over a chrono and say that's good enough?

Different safety mechanisms (or lack thereof in this case) means things like shot to shot consistency can change dramatically. The SA-8 doesn't have to be consistent because you aren't overly concerned with NOT causing harm. You just don't want to kill the person being shot. Therefore, it can hit harder.

And by extensive shot to shot testing I don't mean pulling the trigger once every 5 to 10 seconds or shooting just 200 rounds through it.

Try shooting fast, shooting slow and run a couple CASES of paint through it. Then tell me it's consistency.

[Loguzzzzzz]

I would like to know how many of these people have seen the internals of the SA8 compared to the T8 to see how different they really are.

They're about as different as a Classic valve compared to an X valve. The dump chamber and the power tube are the main differences. One has an adjustable relief valve and one has a fixed pressure relief valve. The SA8 has a different main regulator spring. The rest of the parts are the same except for the reciever engraving with the warning on it.

I understand the legalites off all of this but when engineering concepts and practice along with common sense are applied here there is really very little difference save for the engraving.

As I said earlier, in my opinion there is no difference between an SA8 shooting 320 -330 fps and an automag (or anyother paintball gun for that matter) shooting at the same velocity other than a warnings (one states it is not a toy and the other says it is not a toy and that it is not intended for recreational use) put onto them both to satisfy the liabilities aspect of things.

[MANN]

Some people on mcb chronoed their SA8s many times. It seems that if you chrono it @290, and invert the marker in warm temperatures that you can get a velocity spike as high as 340fps. This was not the norm, but did happen a few times.

Can other markers with CO2 have the same problems? yes. It is not uncommon for a tippmann or spyder(clone) to have 50 fps velocity spikes on a warm day. They do not have built in pressure relief valves.

So is 340 dangerous? Not really. Could it bruise/break skin? sure, but so can 300. Can it break through a mask? Highly unlikely. I remember when I started playing in the mid 90s we did not own chronos. Everyone shot their marker at a certain tree, and you would kinda guess to see if it shot too fast. (I know high liability, blah, blah, blah. Then again we were all friends playing)

So how can we fix the problem of causing these "outrageously high" velocity spikes?

The easiest way is chrono low @ 260. Not that scientific, but It would keep you close to 300. Your consistency is not going to be great, but it will be on par with a spyder, tippmann, etc.

The hard way is to fill your fill chamber with spacers. Keep your marker set on the high velocity (shooting over 400fps from the factory), and fill the dump chamber with some type of spacer. PA(1)=PA(2) for you science people. This would allow your marker to vent automatically at the chance that you get liquid co2 in your dump chamber. You dont have to worry about changing springs, adjusting anything. The hard part is to figure out how much volume needs to be replaced. I am fresh out of paint, and need to get more 12ies. None the less that is the easiest solution if you are worried about these causing catastrophic damage.

Of course if your field does not allow these you are still sol. Me personally I dont care. I will just set mine low. I am not the type to carry a spare marker with me anyways.