From MCB: Safety warning regarding SA8

[Smoothice]

Have you done extensive shot to shot testing on the SA-8? Or did you shoot two or three times over a chrono and say that's good enough?

Different safety (or lack thereof in this case) means things like shot to shot consisteny can change dramatically. The SA-8 doesn't have to be consistent because you aren't overly concerned with NOT causing harm. You just don't want to kill the person being shot. Therefore, it can hit harder.

And by extensive shot to shot testing I don't mean pulling the trigger once every 5 to 10 seconds or shooting just 200 rounds through it.

Try shooting fast, shooting slow and run a couple CASES of paint through it. Then tell me it's consistency.

So instead of answering my question you change your argument? Good call...

[Frizzle Fry]

So instead of answering my question you change your argument? Good call...

Sounds like a question more than an argument?

Anyway I'm out of this one; people just don't (and won't) agree and frankly I think only 3 of us have actually fired and disassembled the marker anyway.

[Smoothice]

Sounds like a question more than an argument?

Anyway I'm out of this one; people just don't (and won't) agree and frankly I think only 3 of us have actually fired and disassembled the marker anyway.

Agreed. No one is going to change their mind on this one.

I've fired and disassembled mine

Then polished the internals

[Loguzzzzzz]

I've fired and disassembled mine

Then polished the internals

^^^^^ what he said^^^^^

[CatoRockwell]

The argument keeps going over the same stuff so let me see if I've surmised the views:

1. physically it is the same as a paintball marker and is technically no more dangerous than one. So it shouldn't be treated any different by the pb community just because it was labeled differently so Tiberius can make more money off of them.

2. It has been identified by the manufacturer as a LLW not a recreational item. Therefore from a legal standpoint you are more liable as a player, field owner, or manufacturer.

You are both right, there is no more point in arguing about this:
Any rational person who has experience in the sport recognizes that a label doesn't make something mechanically different.
However, you have to realize that Americans are stupid, and in our sue-happy I'm-not-responsible-for-my-actions-the-big-bad-business-man-is world if this ever got taken to court you would be screwed because of a label.
It's not right, but thats how our jacked up country is.

View#1 you are right, ideally we should judge things for what they really are, not just what a label tells us. However, you need to understand that in our jacked up society it is not ideal and juries and the public will just see the label. You will not only find yourself screwed, but it will also have a negative effect on the paintball community.

View#2 you are right, legally that label is all that matters. However, just because a manufacturer labeled something as a LLW, despite being virtually identical according to all owners I've heard from, does not mean that it is not just as safe or unsafe for paintball.

As a Concealed Weapons Permit holder, I daily have to recognize the difference between what is right & what the law is. In my mind I have every right to carry a firearm and to use that firearm if I fear for my property or life. Unfortunately, because of the media, and a pussified american people who have a phobia with firearms, I have to walk a very thin line and be extra careful not to step beyond what a Jury would define as reasonable action.

Laying the matter to rest. Field owners will determine what they determine, and Outlaw fields will continue to allow anyone who chronos their "contraption" to play.

[MANN]

Laying the matter to rest. Field owners will determine what they determine, and Outlaw fields will continue to allow anyone who chronos their "contraption" to play.

That about sums it up

[Lohman446]

Update from Tiberius

First I would like to thank the many members that supported our efforts to help player's who may have purchased an SA-8. Those who really know us realize that our motive on this is not profit, it is safety. Thanks as well to all of you have have contacted us to return these products, the efforts to promote safe play are commendable and the spirit that help further our sport.

Second, it was not my intention to post the safety warning and walk away as though that would be the end of it. As one of the members who called the office noted I was out of the office, actually on vacation with my family at Disney World. The fact is I was notified of this issue several hours before getting on a plane. I contacted Pepperball to make sure they knew who their $99 price was attracting, paintball players, not those interested in a less lethal launcher. Since they weren't acting on the matter I pulled time from my family to try and help a situation that was obviously snowballing fast.

Third, Tiberius Arms did not sell these products to any retail customer, Pepperball did, so we aren't trying to cover any liability issues we are trying to address a legitimate safety concern.

I will be honest, I have not read through all of the posts so I apologize if I don't address every question posed but I will do my best to cover the major/recurring issues that have been raised.

First, the SA-8’s are not paintball markers, they are Pepperball launchers, and despite what many are posting there is a big difference. While paintball markers without overpressure relief valves may exist they do not operate in the same manner as our markers. Most lack regulators all together and are therefore designed to operate using CO2 full pressure, our system is not. Most markers featuring a regulator are designed with either a relief valve, or a failure point (that is to say an o-ring/solenoid gasket, etc. that is designed to give out before over pressurization becomes a safety issue), the SA8 lacks this feature. It is important to note that many SA8's may be able to be adjusted to below 300fps, however in the event of a regulator o-ring failure they lack the ability to vent and maintain a velocity that is safe for paintball. {Note: Many have sited the Automag which is a decent example, most didn't realize the have a pressure relief (probably because they didn't want it tampered with). As many who have used an Automag with CO2, or turn the velocity way up can attest they begin leaking out of the back of the regulator, the SA8 does not.} I am not going to debate every form of every marker ever made, even if other markers were/are capable of this failure it does not mean we believe it is safe and most importantly they don't have our name on them.

Second, could we try to manufacture a relief assembly as a drop in replacement, yes, do we feel that is a prudent course of action, no, and here is why. First, the SA-8 Pepperball launchers are etched “Not for recreational use” and were colored in blue and orange (known training and less lethal color choices of the police and military) for a reason. If we make exceptions to this because paintballers thought they found a deal that was too good to be true (and was), we would be doing all of the agencies who use our less lethal equipment a disservice. Additionally we would be telling fields that saw the “Not for recreational use” warning to ignore it, a very dangerous precedent to set. We would also further the incorrect assumption that less lethal weapons can be safely used for paintball. Many are right about the fact that we could try to make this for very little and sell it for a lot to those who are stuck with a purchase that isn’t what they thought it was...this should show our motive is not profit. Despite many peoples assumptions we didn't over extend ourselves by selling to Pepperball, they have chosen to sell these products at a huge loss, which is there right.

Likewise our effort isn’t to reward paintball player’s who purchased SA-8’s, as it has become clear to me that most knew that it was not be a wise decision. We are not demanding anyone return their SA-8, they are a wonderful product for home defense or law enforcement applications. What we are doing is making sure that players who go out to participate in a fun day of play at their local field aren’t subject to unnecessary risk as a result of another player’s careless “good deal”. So many have asked if we are going to "tell fields about these"? Yes, we have a professional and ethical obligation to do so to protect players and field owners. We make no apologies about this point and are amazed the risks people are willing to take to I have experienced a lot of “too good to be true(s)” in my time and can’t remember one where I was offered the chance to get out of that bad decision with nearly as much as we have tried to offer paintball player’s who purchased an SA-8.

As a result of speaking with many SA8 purchasers, reading these forums, and attempting to provide as many opt outs as possible we have decided to offer a $50 gift certificate for those wishing to return only the SA8 launcher. As most have noted the magazines alone are worth $100, so this provides a potentially better fit for many.

Gift Certificates are redeemable directly through Tiberius Arms (all products priced at MAP). I will be posting a complete list of products/prices shortly.

I respect that not everyone will agree with our efforts, or believe our motives but as a company we are really trying to do an honorable thing.

[CatoRockwell]

Well there you have it. You've got to at the very least give Tiberius credit for staying in touch with the online community.

[FutureMagOwner]

I don't see saving a few bucks by buying a LLW is worth the risk of being subject to ADW charges and serious jail time. No matter how you justify it in your mind, that can happen a lot easier with this than it can any paintball marker.

[pump]

damn how unsafe is the SA8?
will it blow up? cut you? or just shoot hot?
if it just shoots hot, how hot?

[Smoothice]

I don't see saving a few bucks by buying a LLW is worth the risk of being subject to ADW charges and serious jail time. No matter how you justify it in your mind, that can happen a lot easier with this than it can any paintball marker.

Most of these were purchased under the assumption they were identical to a tac8. Then when people started receiving them it was confirmed that they came shooting hot but could very simply be turned down to shoot under 300fps.

[FutureMagOwner]

Most of these were purchased under the assumption they were identical to a tac8. Then when people started receiving them it was confirmed that they came shooting hot but could very simply be turned down to shoot under 300fps.

It has nothing to do with the velocity of it, it is not for recreational use, that isn't an assumption it was very clear. No matter how safe or unsafe it may be, it is not for use in paintball. It is classified as a less lethal WEAPON, and if you intentionally use it on the field you are running the risk of being charged with 1st degree assault with a deadly weapon and criminal negligence. I know that can happen with legitimate paintball marker as well, for example people doing drive by's and taking someones eye out. That is because the marker was not used for its intended purpose (on a recreational field with consenting parties, proper safety rules, etc). Using this pistol on a field is the same case, it is not meant to be on a paintball field.

I understand from a mechanical aspect it is the same as other paintball guns, but it is not a paintball gun. Again, I will make the point that it is not worth taking that risk to save a few bucks, this isn't some ploy by TA to get you to spend money on a full price pistol. It is to cover their ***, because of something pepperball did, and to cover the asses of the people who bought these pistols. They don't want to see people getting hurt, and going to jail because they wanted to save some cash by buying equipment meant for the military.

[CatoRockwell]

Now come on guys let's not start all this again. We know that mechanically it's a paintball gun but a cop, a judge, and a jury are only going to see the label. The last thing paintball needs right now is negative publicity.

[Lohman446]

Can paintball rounds be shot from a PepperBall launcher?

No. PepperBall Technologies, Inc. does not suggest nor can we warrantee your purchase of our projectiles or launchers should use them in any products other than those you purchase from PepperBall. This policy protects our customers from potential problems at the time of product usage

In fairness to Pepperball they have taken some back, and do have a FAQ on the sight for anyone who might have thought to question why it was labeled an SA8 rather than a T8. Though it sounds like they have not made the distinction on the main sight those who had looked into the differences would have found this.

[hitech]

There is really only one thing that matters. An SA8 is NOT a paintball marker, therefore it is NOT allowed on any paintball field. it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name. Only paintball markers are allowed during paintball games, and with good reason.

Yes, an SA8 can probably be used as a paintball marker and be as safe as some existing paintball markers. However, it is not a paintball marker and should never be used in a game. Add to everything that the manufacturer has stated it is not safe and all discussion of using it in a game should end.

Off topic, does anyone know where you can purchase the Fist Strike rounds in the new bulk packaging (100 ct)? Yup, I'm now the proud owner of a T9 with FS conversion kit. I no longer shed vortices.


Added: I hadn't read the post from Tiberius. That kinda settles it, don't ya think.

[Smoothice]

it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name.
.

Walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, tastes like a duck, looks like a duck. Must be a bear...

But legally speaking you are right...

[hitech]

If they (Tiberius) simply took an T8 and changed the name to SA8 and added the "NOT FOR RECREATIONAL USE" inscription to it then it becomes something other than a paintball marker. THAT decision is not up to the player, period. We can't have individuals deciding this. If we did eventuially some idiot would end up playing with an FN303 with the weighted rounds!

[Enemy]

Walks like a duck, quakes like a duck, tastes like a duck, looks like a duck. Must be a bear...

But legally speaking you are right...

hmm maybe one reason is the lack of an over pressure blow off valve, the other might be that many of the sa-8s didnt have an adjustable reg.

so per the manufacturer that has been stated multiple times these are not t-8s and should not be used as such.

your argument still persists at if you can get it at limits than its all good but what if your reg fails and without the blow off you dont recognize it and zing me your buddy in the back of the head with a 600 fps shot, not so safe now huh.

Its just a matter of general safety equipment and a lack there of so as such just settle with the idea that while a fun thing to have and a good deal these just shouldnt be used on a field.

But as tracker always says stupid finds a way bro see you soon.. hopfully

[Smoothice]

hmm maybe one reason is the lack of an over pressure blow off valve, the other might be that many of the sa-8s didnt have an adjustable reg.

Read the post I quoted and you will understand my comment.

This was the part I quoted

Originally Posted by hitech
it wouldn't matter if it was made EXACTLY like a T8 with a different name.

Key word is EXACTLY.

[Enemy]

Read the post I quoted and you will understand my comment.

This was the part I quoted

Key word is EXACTLY.

4pgs later i started skipping through all i read was they arent the same and for some odd reason i didnt put much weight into the they are the same arguments...and to further make my point more valid

[Smoothice]

4pgs later i started skipping through all i read was they arent the same and for some odd reason i didnt put much weight into the they are the same arguments...and to further make my point more valid

Well have you seen the latest? Apparently their is a tac8-R on the market. It appears to have a fixed relief valve just like the s-8's. I'm sure there are differences. At least I sure hope there are!!

I traded my s-8 in for a blem tac-8. I just wanted a cheap backup for people to borrow. Wasn't looking to be part of a holy war...

I hope you guys can plan sinnerball for a different weekend this year. Then I may be able to make it!

[Enemy]

Well have you seen the latest? Apparently their is a tac8-R on the market. It appears to have a fixed relief valve just like the s-8's. I'm sure there are differences. At least I sure hope there are!!

I traded my s-8 in for a blem tac-8. I just wanted a cheap backup for people to borrow. Wasn't looking to be part of a holy war...

I hope you guys can plan sinnerball for a different weekend this year. Then I may be able to make it!

yall are the ones that vote on the weekend lmao but yeah i hope to see yah there and hopefully at some other events too.