Registered User
Alright, i recently bought a hyperframe from the classified forums and threw it on my mag. This is the setup i have:
Retrovalve (stock rt on/off)
ULE mainbody
Hyperframe
Classic rail
I just used this gun last weekend with no probs. I got the ULE body and hyperframe for it today and put them both on. Now it leaks BAD down the barrel but still cycles. I have a classic valve also i tried on the same setup with the centerflag on/off but it leaked too. What am i doing wrong?
mag#1
You have any way of checking your on\off pin?
It could be the wrong length. Should be around .750, with the quad oring I think.
You could try using a ULT if you have one.
Last edited by my automag; 01-03-2012 at 09:38 PM.
Registered User
dont have a ULT, ULT is not compatible on retrovalve unless you have it modded by someone.
Registered User
from what i understand if you have a classic valve use the centerflag on/off that came with the hyperframe and they should work according to the hyperframe faq post
RKM 3D Designs
hyper frames are old.Originally Posted by river031403
if you dont have one bran new in the box you are most likely not going to get the hyperframe on off.
most times they are hard to come by.
my $.02
KNM
Registered User
i got the hyperframe on/off with the frame from the seller, and i used it in the classic valve, but im still getting a bad leak down barrel, not even cycling. With the retrovalve i tried using hyperframe on/off and stock RT on/off and both leaked, did not cycle with the hyperframe on/off. but it will cycle with the RT on/off, but still leaks for some reason.
www.BigEvilOnline.com
Make sure you have the proper front frame screw. Im not sure if it is the same one for the mech frames or not.
If you are using a retro or rt or X valve, use a ULT with 6 shims in it. If you are using a classic mag and cannot get a Centerflag on/off.. use a RT on/off assembly with a .750 pin. The pin is the EXACT same one that comes in the Centerflag on/off. Only the on/off body assembly is different.
Registered User
i was thinking it may have to do with the front screw as well. The stock screw was a bit short, and i had to use a diff one that wasnt quite the right length to put it together, im going to try and get one that is the correct fit tonight and try again. Thanks
RKM 3D Designs
good luck with it.
i always loved my hyper frame.
sold it back about 2 years ago for real cheap along with a TON more stuff for cheap.
oooops.
KNM
Hyper Micro
Since you put on the ULE body and the hyperframe at the same time and got a leak try separating the parts to ensure its the frame causing the problems .... what i mean is try using the hyperframe with the old body first or the ULE old frame with the old frame. Couple of questions for you.
Also are you using the same sear on both frames or different sears ?
Lastly is this a level 10 or level 7 bolt ?
Registered User
It is a level 7 bolt, i thought about trying with the bodies as well, however i need a new grip frame front screw with the hyperframe regardless of the body i use, i havent been able to get to the hardware store tho bcuz of work.
Registered User
oh, and the person who sold me the frame sent me a sear with it that i was using instead of my other one
Hyper Micro
try swapping sears and see if that corrects the problem.
Registered User
quick update, i tried switching things around, i put everything back to the stock setup and now it leaks also. It leaks down the barrel badly, and if i pull down the trigger it stops as long as i hold it. No combination of parts works correctly anymore on either my classic valve or retrovalve anymore since i hooked them both up to the hyperframe
Registered User
So here is a recap of the problem. I had a working classic valve and Retrovalve on a stock tunamag. I replaced the body with a ULE body, and also with a hyperframe. After hooking up the hyperframe on both valves now they are both leaking down the barrel unless i hold down the trigger. I have tried every combination of parts and nothing is working anymore. I took apart the retrovalve and all the orings still appear in perfect condition, lubed and put back together. Still Leaking. Im thinking about buying a lvl 10 kit for it since it is currently lvl 7. Would this possibly solve the problem? Any ideas?
Of course it works-its AGD
You have a powertube issue. The powertube spacer is too long, or the powertube oring is damaged. Changing to a shorter powertube spacer should fix your problem.
Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.
Registered User
i figured it was a powertube problem, but why would it suddenly become an issue? It has been working just fine. I have been thinking about it, and i have a feeling that the sear isnt releasing the bolt before triggering the on/off to let more air into the chamber, forcing the air already in the chamber that should have been released during the previous cyle to go out down the barrel and blow the oring. Im worried once i repleace the PT oring it will just blow again if i dont fix the sear issue. anyone else with hyperframe have an issue with the frame shortstroking the sear?
Registered User
These frames have 2 tuning issues
1) The battery doesn't have the power to move the pin on retro valves
2) Spacing issues ie pin length
In short the ult fixes both these problems
I have one of these frames and I could not get it to work right with a retro valve without a ult.
The 9volt battery doesn't have the amps to move that kind of force even with the 6800 cap. I'm pretty sure I have one of the pins that came with the frame, I'm looking at it now, it looks like it"s trying to work like a ult (reduces trigger pull force).
Even when these were new they didn't work the best. Center flag wanted people to send their mags to them so they could tune them.
When I set the pin length with the ult I manually move the solenoid plunger.
1) It should release the bolt at the very end of the cycle (plunger hits the back of the noid). If it doesn't, it will tear up the bolt really badly. If there are shims on the noid remove them. You want as long of a sear movement as possible.
2) You want the on/off pin to shut down the air just before it releases the bolt. To test this, push the plunger in and hold it in. When the gun fires there should be no hissing. You have to do this manually, it is too fast of a cycle to hear the hiss. This is where I did the most tuning. If the valve shuts off too early in the cycle you will have shoot down. If it shuts off too late, you'll get leaks, bolt won't reset, lose efficiency etc.
If your sear has too much side to side wobble, the solenoid pin might not push the sear properly. I cheated and welded a round face on mine to give the solenoid pin more area to strike. The rt pro sears help with wobble because of the bushing. I again cheated and used dual bb pressed together with set screws so I have no wobble at all.
As far as the power tube leaking when it didn't before, if the sear release point is wrong it can rub the power tube oring funny and make it leak. I'd suggest use the old frame, fix the leak, then go back to the frame tuning.
A level 10 does help (less force on the sear) but I use a level 7 and a level 10 and they both work. I'd suggest tune the frame, then get the level 10 as it needs tuning and it is harder to tune both at once.
I hope this helps, my frame shoots very well so it is possible but they do take some work. I can add pics if it will help. I really think you need a ult in order for your frame to make you happy. The retro valve just has too much force to work well (that's why emags use an 18v heavy duty solenoid).
I noticed you said you changed sears, check the part that pushes the on/off pin. I got one used and someone ground .5 mm off and it really messed up my gun.
Last edited by tankz; 01-07-2012 at 05:44 PM. Reason: spelling
Registered User
Yea, that all really helps. I will try to tune the solenoid tomorrow when i can get more air. I tried the setup today with my friends Xvalve and it worked flawlessly. I also put my retrovalve into his setup and it did not leak. So its just the mix of the retro and hyperframe. From what i have read i would need to do some major changes to the valve to make a ULT work, so i guess ill just have to look into an xvalve with ULT if i want this to happen for real.
Of course it works-its AGD
You must have one of the early retro valves that use a single on-off top oring. You can't use a ULT in these valves without machining out the on-off hole.
The change in operation from a leak to no leak in the powertube is usually due to different positioning of the valve in the body/rail. If the spacer is causing the oring to barely seal and the valve position changes even a tiny bit, it can cause the leak. It just means you need the shorter spacer to guarantee that it won't leak for all situations.
The solenoids have the most power when the plunger is pulled all the way in. Tune your frame setup/solenoid so that the sear just releases the bolt when the solenoid is pulled all the way in. Any sear movement past what is needed means the sear is being engaged too soon where the solenoid is not as strong. This can cause power issues where the solenoid may not be strong enough to activate the gun in all instances.
Registered User
I may have missed this in all the posts but another likely problem is the ule body on a am rail. Is the body sitting flat in the rail or is it hitting on the bolt post causing it to not sit flat.
Registered User
i removed everything from the rail so that it sits flat. I also have run the whole setup with a friends xvalve and it worked perfectly. Looks like i will need one to work this hyper frame :/
Of course it works-its AGD
Does your retro valve use two orings above the top or one oring?
So, the hyperframe setup works with the X-valve? If that is so, then all you need is a powertube tuning (shorter spacer) and an on-off adjustment. You can put shims between the two halves of your on-off to simulate a shorter pin.
Registered User
the retrovalve has a one oring on/off valve. With a lvl 10 kit would i get the on/off shims and PT spacers i need to fix this?
Of course it works-its AGD
Yea, the ULT is definately out for this valve without a machining upgrade.
The level 10 kit doesn't need the spacers. It uses a different method of sealing. The small end of the level 10 bolt stem actually fits through the center of a carrier oring and seals on the inside edge, but the level 7 bolt stem seals against the front edge of the powertube oring. For the level 10 system, the fit of the oring is critical which is why there are several different carrier sizes included. By using different carrier sizes, the inner diameter of the oring can be adjusted to fit the bolt stem and provide enough tension to seal the air without providing too much friction to interfere with the bolt movement.
The level 10 powertube spacers, which shouldn't ever be used in the powertube unless there is a major tolerance issue, can be used to shim the retro on-off. The shims are included with the level 10 kit. The level 10 spacers are 0.01" thick. The ULT shims are only 0.005" thick so they provide more adjustability.
If all you need is the powertube spacer, then you can shorten the one you have. Rub one end along a piece of sand paper that is held against a flat surface. Take off as much metal as you need to shorten it to the proper length. Sand and try continually to check your progress. If you make it too short, you can always add more length by adding a level 10 or ULT shim.
Registered User
UPDATE:
I adjusted the solenoid in the hyperframe like Tankz suggested and now the valve cycles properly when aired up and shot, however i still have a bad leak down the barrel. I ordered a powertube spacer kit from AGD and it should be here in about a week. Ill update yall when i get it. Thanks everyone for the help and i will still gladly take any and all the input you guys can give me to make this gun puuurrrrrrr.
Registered User
UPDATE. Got the powertube spacer kit, and put the smallest spacer, the 215 spacer in it, and it still leaks, it cycles slightly better. I guess im going to try and sand down the smallest spacer to be a bit smaller and see if it works....if not its looking like im gonna have to dish it out for an xvalve....
Hyper Micro
Did you try swapping out your sears ... do you have the rail bushing installed ?
Registered User
i tried several sears, and i tried the sear in a non-hyperframe setup. Worked perfectly without hyperframe, alll sears did not work with hyperframe. i do not have rail bushings. But i used my hyperframe setup with an xvalve and it worked perfectly.
Of course it works-its AGD
You need a rail bushing. Without it, its just luck if you get the valve located at the proper space to prevent constant leaking out the front. You will definitely get random firing issues without a rail bushing in place.
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