Results 1 to 25 of 25

Thread: regulator piston problem and thoughts

  1. #1
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39

    regulator piston problem and thoughts

    got hold on a couple non funktioning almost complete automags that needed some love and care that got build together as a minimag pistol.

    but heres my question... had some isues with fluxing velocity over crono and checked the regulator piston oring surface and found that it is somewhat irregular in surface like streaks frome lathe machining and checked at my working mag and found out that it too had slight irregular surface where velocity piston is seated but it works for that valve but caught my attention when two valves got the same type of streeking ore if this is a normal thing that other had stumbled upon also?

    so is it just me that thought it should be smoth surface for the regulator piston oring ore is this a common thing and nothing to worry about?
    Paid in paintballs

  2. #2
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    lots of views but no answer

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    offshore
    Posts
    8,514
    Quote Originally Posted by SWE HooK View Post
    lots of views but no answer
    are you talking about the inside of the valve half where the reg piston oring rides? Or on the piston itself? If so, in all my years of teching these mags I have never run across one that didnt seal there...or needed attention there. You can always polish it if that would make you feel better.
    Email me for low prices on ALL AGD Products and more. tunaman5@verizon.net
    Tunamart

  4. #4
    If something is scoring the piston, that's a problem. The o-ring is what makes the seal and the springpack is what will have a bigger impact on velocity consistency, but if there's enough junk in there that the piston is getting messed up, then you definitely need to clean out the reg back and re-grease everything.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    are you talking about the inside of the valve half where the reg piston oring rides? Or on the piston itself? If so, in all my years of teching these mags I have never run across one that didnt seal there...or needed attention there. You can always polish it if that would make you feel better.
    yes its on the inside the regulator where the reg pistin oring rides.
    its not that it aint seling its not leaking but as mentiond i got some sporadic fluctuation over crono and got picky in mu serch for an explanation and found on two valves with different numbers with smal rifeling from the lathe process from manufacturing.

    my next theory is that my regulator on airtank is the problem by leaving fluctuation in air pressure and therfore upsetting the regulator in the automag valves.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by bowcycle View Post
    If something is scoring the piston, that's a problem. The o-ring is what makes the seal and the springpack is what will have a bigger impact on velocity consistency, but if there's enough junk in there that the piston is getting messed up, then you definitely need to clean out the reg back and re-grease everything.
    its probably just me that is over picky on details this time... had got the regulator piston out a couple of times and cleand and greased it up so its clean and nothin to scoring the piston but there seem to be some rifeling from the manufacturing process in the surface that is sealing agaist the oring on the piston on two different valves that i in my search for a explanation to my problem with fluxing speed on crono had made sort of a tiny feather in to an ostrich and that my find is irrelevant to the problem but not to make a asumption i asked if ther is more that got the same "findings" in ther regulators.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Dec 2000
    Location
    offshore
    Posts
    8,514
    Quote Originally Posted by SWE HooK View Post
    its probably just me that is over picky on details this time... had got the regulator piston out a couple of times and cleand and greased it up so its clean and nothin to scoring the piston but there seem to be some rifeling from the manufacturing process in the surface that is sealing agaist the oring on the piston on two different valves that i in my search for a explanation to my problem with fluxing speed on crono had made sort of a tiny feather in to an ostrich and that my find is irrelevant to the problem but not to make a asumption i asked if ther is more that got the same "findings" in ther regulators.
    I would be more inclined to replace the regulator seat...and then dont take it apart until something breaks. Everytime you unscrew the halves they do not wind up in the same place on the reg seat...causing fluctuations in velocity.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    I would be more inclined to replace the regulator seat...and then dont take it apart until something breaks. Everytime you unscrew the halves they do not wind up in the same place on the reg seat...causing fluctuations in velocity.
    that part i know not to take the halves apart when ther is a new regulator seat in, im just tinkering with regulator piston back at the velocity adjustment as ther where the place i asumed might be the problem and as stated ther might be problem with my botle to that might causing the problem.
    its just annoying not finding the problem and im start with wild speculating and finding a nonproblem and get stuck with that whilst ther might be a simpler explanation.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Did you ever find the exact problem? I have seen dirt in the piston area cause velocity fluctuations before. The regulator is also one of the more likely culprits, especially when they get old and hardened, and get disturbed when the valve is taken apart. The bottle regulator can cause minor issues, but is less likely to be the culprit due to the big swing in pressure that would be required in order to cause enough of a difference in the mag regulator. A bottle regulator is more likely to have flow issues causing drop off during rapid fire situations than fluctuations in velocity. Another major source of velocity fluctuations is bad paint. This can be more exaggerated with some barrels than with others depending on the paint to barrel mismatch.
    Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Did you ever find the exact problem? I have seen dirt in the piston area cause velocity fluctuations before. The regulator is also one of the more likely culprits, especially iwhen they get old and hardened, and get disturbed when the valve is taken apart. The bottle regulator can cause minor issues, but is less likely to be the culprit due to the big swing in pressure that would be required in order to cause enough of a difference in the mag regulator. A bottle regulator is more likely to have flow issues causing drop off during rapid fire situations than fluctuations in velocity. Another major source of velocity fluctuations is bad paint. This can be more exaggerated with some barrels than with others depending on the paint to barrel mismatch.
    no as to this point im still not find the problem with fuxing speed and as you say ther might be problems with quality on the balls im using and this season my field had problems that balls where smaler then last year so my big .690 barrel is like throwing a golfball down a tunnel and that might also be part of the problem ore the hole problem right there.

    as for the last cuple of months im using my magpistol "horny as its named" that is sweet as suggar to shoot and its got a coolant hose as maggasine so its a 17 shots handload "stock class" thingy.
    way fun to be light and nimble not to tote around with exesive amount with pods and heavy loader as my rotor..

  11. #11
    I've never seen or heard of "machine" marks at all in any regulator batch or series of serial numbers produced by AGD. What you are most likely seeing is the reflection of the threads on the super polished surface.
    Those surfaces were specifically burnished to a high polish. Any machine marks you are seeing is either a trick of the polish or someone after the fact has run a tool down there and ruined the finish.
    AGD is in the house!
    Custom gun builds. All the parts. New Website. Factory Service available!
    www.airgundesigns.com

  12. #12
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    I've never seen or heard of "machine" marks at all in any regulator batch or series of serial numbers produced by AGD. What you are most likely seeing is the reflection of the threads on the super polished surface.
    Those surfaces were specifically burnished to a high polish. Any machine marks you are seeing is either a trick of the polish or someone after the fact has run a tool down there and ruined the finish.
    might be as sandman says someone made a bobo and ruined the surface.
    other than that is im start to belive the oil im lubed with sems to be to dry compared to "autolube" and making the regulator piston sticking slightly.

  13. #13
    Just curious, when you say velocity fluctuations, how good is the paint youre shooting as far as roundness and size goes? Also are your detents in good shape or are they old? Finally what body and bolt are you using?

  14. #14
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by dano_____ View Post
    Just curious, when you say velocity fluctuations, how good is the paint youre shooting as far as roundness and size goes? Also are your detents in good shape or are they old? Finally what body and bolt are you using?
    im shooting toro paint should say that it is good quality paint.
    size is around 685-687 in a 690 straight barrel 14", detents im using a wire detent that is i good shape but fairly old.
    using both LVL 7 and LVL 10 bolts with same fluctuation over crono.
    to this season i might try another oil in this marker.

    as mentioned in erlier post for the last season im used another marker (autolube oiled) named it "horny" set up as pistol.
    Last edited by SWE HooK; 08-13-2019 at 05:38 AM.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    as of today im not yet find an good answer to my problem more then that most of the problem seems to come from that modern paint gets smaller and smaller and the barral to paint match dont get near the standard what is good and acceptable.

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Quote Originally Posted by SWE HooK View Post
    as of today im not yet find an good answer to my problem more then that most of the problem seems to come from that modern paint gets smaller and smaller and the barral to paint match dont get near the standard what is good and acceptable.
    The closer you get to a perfect match, the more fluctuation you will get when there is an odd sized ball. If you want better consistency for all balls, you need to go really tight, or really loose. The downside of tight is that you will experience an increase in busted balls. The downside of loose is decreased air efficiency. I use a really loose barrel for competition. For reference, I shoot your ball size in a 0.693 or 0.695 inch barrel without any accuracy issues.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Also, don't use any oil that leaves a sticky residue. The light oils required for a mag provide a wetting for lubrication without causing a buildup or oring sticking.

  18. #18
    95 percent of velocity fluctuation is paint quality and barrel match. 3% is input regulator failure. 1% the gun. that leaves 1% for Extra Terrestrial interference.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    95 percent of velocity fluctuation is paint quality and barrel match. 3% is input regulator failure. 1% the gun. that leaves 1% for Extra Terrestrial interference.
    well looks like the 1% of ET interference is what i got this time

    took a close look at all my valves (3)and one is a 8hole mod the other is the one that got the FPS drop (#10046) and next seems to be a clone mag.
    the #46 got tiny air passages ,070" (1.8mm) and some delicate job with drillpress in the valve body its now .118" (3mm) and in the regulator half .10" (2.5mm)
    and woila the problem of shootdown during rapid fire seems to be gone altleast during test fire and i need to borrow the crono down at the field to get it confermed over crono if the problem of airflow is gone.

    as i earlier have tryed both the 8hole regulator and clone on the #46 valve front and the problem of shootdown still appered but not with the 8hole walve as complete the problem got lokated to front valve on #46 and that got the tiny air pasages that is now drilled out to slightly larger and airflow got better as the area got up by 120% just by an increse of diameter of roughly 50%.
    will get back to tell the rest of this storry as soon as i got the crono numbers.

  20. #20
    If the valve is matched and was made properly, drilling bigger air holes would not fix anything. A properly matched and made 68 Automag valve can pass about 10 times more air than you can shoot. That was calculated and determined when we first encountered the airflow problem with the original 3000 serial#'s. Tom made sure that problem would never happen again. If by drilling your valves you are "fixing" your problems then I certainly can't say to stop doing that, but I can say for certain if your valves are made properly...no defects etc... then drilling more holes, bigger holes etc...is not fixing your airflow issue, despite the results you seem to be getting.

    To be clear I'm not telling you what to do or not do do and I have no specific knowledge of the valves you are testing. Your situation may be well outside the purview of a good condition stock valve.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    If the valve is matched and was made properly, drilling bigger air holes would not fix anything. A properly matched and made 68 Automag valve can pass about 10 times more air than you can shoot. That was calculated and determined when we first encountered the airflow problem with the original 3000 serial#'s. Tom made sure that problem would never happen again. If by drilling your valves you are "fixing" your problems then I certainly can't say to stop doing that, but I can say for certain if your valves are made properly...no defects etc... then drilling more holes, bigger holes etc...is not fixing your airflow issue, despite the results you seem to be getting.

    To be clear I'm not telling you what to do or not do do and I have no specific knowledge of the valves you are testing. Your situation may be well outside the purview of a good condition stock valve.
    thanks sandman for your input and as i dont got my hands on anny other valve more then those i got at this point but as it seem looking at pics of others valve mine seem to had unusual small air passages.
    in my case ther seem to be working with the mod that had been done this time and yes the air passage from regulator to valve dident match as it where of quite a bit almost half a turn off.
    Last edited by SWE HooK; 11-08-2019 at 03:47 PM.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    well today i got hold of the crono and som slight dimpled paint and it is cold today in sweden 40fahrenheit ore +5degrees to try out the mod with and the problem with random speed that coult be heard before that the marker lost speed and power is gone well there where some diffrent speed shown on the crono and tryed to get round 280fps and some shots between 270-290 most due to half ass paint but the shoot down is gone.

    tryed the same paint in my other marker cronoed to 280fps (field limit) just for referance and got the same variable in speed also tryed the paint in firends marker (T98) to gett a referance in an other marker and he got same speed differance roughly as me so yes some of the irregular speed today got its reasons but the shootdown that could clearly be heard before is gone eaven tho the crono show some speed differance.
    Last edited by SWE HooK; 11-09-2019 at 01:34 PM.

  23. #23
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman View Post
    That was calculated and determined when we first encountered the airflow problem with the original 3000 serial#'s. Tom made sure that problem would never happen again.
    I think they went well past the 3000s. The first mag valve I bought in early 1993 was in the low 8000s and it had the misaligned hole that caused flow issues. I marked it and properly angle drilled the back to match the front. The factory fix came after that.

  24. #24
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Halifax, N.S., Canada
    Posts
    8,039
    Quote Originally Posted by SWE HooK View Post
    the other is the one that got the FPS drop (#10046).....the #46 got tiny air passages ,070" (1.8mm) and some delicate job with drillpress in the valve body its now .118" (3mm) and in the regulator half .10" (2.5mm)
    Have you checked the alignment of the holes. That was the problem with flow in earlier valves, more so than the size of the hole. The 8 hole mods were a quick fix, but only because they located two of the holes closer to the hole in the front half so it doubled the amount of flow through the small circular groove where the valves joined together. The front hole size increase will help, but not as much as the alignment, although any decrease in flow restriction is a good thing.

    Mark the side of the front half of the valve, where the hole is located. Then screw the valve halves together and mark the back half to line up with the mark on the front half. If the hole in the back half doesn't line up with the hole in the front half, a new one should be drilled in the back so that it does line up. It needs to be properly angled into the reservoir in the back or you ruin the back. Its not hard to do with a tilted vise and a drill press.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    SWEDEN
    Posts
    39
    Quote Originally Posted by athomas View Post
    Have you checked the alignment of the holes. That was the problem with flow in earlier valves, more so than the size of the hole. The 8 hole mods were a quick fix, but only because they located two of the holes closer to the hole in the front half so it doubled the amount of flow through the small circular groove where the valves joined together. The front hole size increase will help, but not as much as the alignment, although any decrease in flow restriction is a good thing.

    Mark the side of the front half of the valve, where the hole is located. Then screw the valve halves together and mark the back half to line up with the mark on the front half. If the hole in the back half doesn't line up with the hole in the front half, a new one should be drilled in the back so that it does line up. It needs to be properly angled into the reservoir in the back or you ruin the back. Its not hard to do with a tilted vise and a drill press.
    as stated earlier my valve got its original holes of by almost 180 degrees and thay where tiny as heck on top of that, the holes shown in the valve seen in this clip from bacci the hole is huge in comparison to my hole before the drilling.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inhflCbL5pE

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •