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Thread: Medical Tyranny / Fascism

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    I didn't need to read it. I've read it before. But let's go through it again together, shall we?



    You said that Biden is imposing fines on businesses that don't follow his rule (his rule, in this case, being the vaccine mandate). But the Eighth Amendment doesn't protect us against fines. It protects us against excessive fines. There's a difference.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've read that the vaccine mandate only applies to companies that employ at least 100 people, and the fine is be around $14,000? Or $70,000. I'm a little confused on that. But let's take the $70,000 just for a worse case scenario. If you own a company that employs at least 100 people, then you need to generate millions of dollars in revenue just to pay their wages, even if you're only offering minimum wage. And I know that gross revenue is vastly different from profit, but still...a $70,000 fine is like...what? 3-5% of your revenue? That doesn't seem "excessive" to me. Every business that large has margins built in to cover things like that. Otherwise they'd never survive a slow year.

    Now if the company is stubborn and still doesn't comply after the first fine, they can be fined a lot more. But even still, that's not unconstitutional. Because the Bill of Rights is only one part of the Constitution. We've added a lot more amendments and laws since then. Go read up on the Supreme Court case of Jacobson v. Massachusetts. It's all there, over a hundred years ago. Vaccine mandates. Fines imposed. And the Supreme Court ruled that individual liberty is not absolute, and the government of a society has the right to protect its citizens from threats of illness from the unvaccinated.



    The government isn't firing private citizens. It's fining the business. There's a difference. Granted the end result might be the same, but there's an important legal distinction.

    This isn't new, either. When I was a teacher, even though I had a teaching license, I still needed to get 180 hours of "continuing education" credit every five years. If I didn't do that, and if the school district kept me employed anyway, they would be fined.

    Again, it comes down to certain limits. The constitution does guarantee a certain amount of individual freedom and free market for businesses, but that freedom is not absolute. It never has been. Businesses can't employ slaves anymore. They can't employ children. They can't fire someone for getting pregnant. In general, they can't do something that will harm the common good. And in this case, the elected government has decided that most people being vaccinated is the common good.

    You don't like it? Vote him out and hope the next guy changes the law back. That's how it works. You don't get to just ignore the rules you don't like. I said that I hated the continuing education requirement for my teaching job. I mostly taught classic British literature, which hasn't changed at all in the last 50 years, so being "up to date" was literally pointless for me. But I still got those credits. And that was a much bigger pain in the ass than getting a free vaccine. I had to spend thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours to get those credits, all for the "freedom" to keep my job.



    You can't shout treason every time a politician does something you don't like. It cheapens the word. When I was a teacher, I hated the No Child Left Behind law that Bush passed because it's dumb and it was obviously written by someone who never spent time in a school. But I don't think Bush was a traitor for passing that law. He was just misinformed. Or he had different priorities than me. I don't know.

    You're wrong about the numbers too. You're off by an order of magnitude. And as for the vaccines...well, I agree that they should have been vaccinated as one of the conditions for being allowed in the country, but that problem will sort itself out sooner than later. Most migrants get jobs in factories or construction or things like that, and since those employers typically have a large work force, they'll get the vaccine then.
    They are not migrants. They are ILLEGAL ALIENS entering this country ILLEGALLY. For a teacher you dont comprehend very well.
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    rawbutter,

    Can you elaborate on why you support a vaccine mandate, but you donít support a 15 year life for a compressed air tank? Arenít both government imposed mandates for safety reasons?
    Sure. As soon as going_home and the others can explain to me why they they don't support vaccines even though they support 15-year lifespans for tanks. Both are for safety, after all, and covid has killed WAY more people than exploding tanks. If they're willing to buy new tanks and pay for hydro testing to keep themselves and others safe, why are they against a free vaccine that does the same thing?

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    Wasting your time.
    Fascist college educators have caused good old American common sense to be replaced with the nanny state mentality.

    Good old American common sense can agree to disagree, fascism is not capable of this.


    I am fascist now? Cool. I thought I was the communist. Fascists tend to be right wing extremists, not liberals.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    They are not migrants. They are ILLEGAL ALIENS entering this country ILLEGALLY. For a teacher you dont comprehend very well.
    You forgot the apostrophe in "don't." And the comma after "teacher."

    And if the current administration is letting people in, as you say, then they're not coming in illegally. They're not hopping fences. They're being processed. That makes them immigrants, not aliens. Biden isn't even letting in everyone anyway. His administration is turning away thousands and thousands of people. Have you heard about the planes full of migrants going back to Haiti?

    Really makes me sad. Wish he wasn't doing that.

  5. #35
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    LOL , this is startin to get funny ,, seems I remember when the vax was " an Experimental Vax "
    This is The Great Experiment , with an Experimental Vaccine & the maker of said Vaccine's Have NO LIABILITY , so in 2 , 8 , 15 years down the road , you won't see Lawyers advertising " If you took the Vax in 2020/2021 you may be entitled to compensation
    Those that Don't get vaxed are in The Great Experiment also , they are called the control group
    At this point it's all about Whose Science you listen to or believe , there are also thousands of Doctors that don't approve of the Vaccine ( science )
    At this point there is also plenty of evidence that the Vaccine is NOT good for everyone , and fact is , You may still Contract & Carry covid , even if your Vaxxed
    IMO this is about Freedom of Choice

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    You forgot the apostrophe in "don't." And the comma after "teacher."

    And if the current administration is letting people in, as you say, then they're not coming in illegally. They're not hopping fences. They're being processed. That makes them immigrants, not aliens. Biden isn't even letting in everyone anyway. His administration is turning away thousands and thousands of people. Have you heard about the planes full of migrants going back to Haiti?

    Really makes me sad. Wish he wasn't doing that.
    The current administration is breaking the law. And pay better attention to your news sources. Did you not see Mayorkas say that they let in all those Illegals under the bridge in Del Rio? All 12000 of them and tested no one. May they land in your neighborhood. Also, will you be voting for the asswipe Terry Mccauliff that says parents should have no say in what schools teach your kids? I already know the answer. Dont waste your breath replying. Everything this administration touches turns to crap...like EVERY major city they control.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    Sure. As soon as going_home and the others can explain to me why they they don't support vaccines even though they support 15-year lifespans for tanks. Both are for safety, after all, and covid has killed WAY more people than exploding tanks. If they're willing to buy new tanks and pay for hydro testing to keep themselves and others safe, why are they against a free vaccine that does the same thing?
    For what it's worth, that was a sincere question to get your perspective.

    Only speaking for myself, and attempting to keep it brief, tank requirements are a relatively small cost for a leisure activity to prevent a potential pipe bomb, and there are no protections from the potential pipe bomb other than hydro testing and limited life, both of which are very common for components that experience cyclic stress. A vaccine mandate affects one's personal health choice and livelihood, and the vaccinated have protection from those choosing not to get vaccinated.
    Last of the Salzburg Clan

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    LOL , this is startin to get funny ,, seems I remember when the vax was " an Experimental Vax "
    This is The Great Experiment , with an Experimental Vaccine & the maker of said Vaccine's Have NO LIABILITY , so in 2 , 8 , 15 years down the road , you won't see Lawyers advertising " If you took the Vax in 2020/2021 you may be entitled to compensation
    Those that Don't get vaxed are in The Great Experiment also , they are called the control group
    At this point it's all about Whose Science you listen to or believe , there are also thousands of Doctors that don't approve of the Vaccine ( science )
    At this point there is also plenty of evidence that the Vaccine is NOT good for everyone , and fact is , You may still Contract & Carry covid , even if your Vaxxed
    IMO this is about Freedom of Choice


    Plus.. maybe more people would trust the make believe vaccine if the manufacturer was held liable for injury it's product causes. The hydro testing and tank life span is specifically for safety. If a 20 year old hpa tank exploded while filling it.. and there was no end-of-life date... then I would think the manufacturer would be getting sued.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by maniacmechanic View Post
    seems I remember when the vax was " an Experimental Vax "
    The current vaccines have been out of the experimental stage for almost a year now. They've been approved by the FDA. They've been safety administered to hundreds of millions of people (which is tens of thousands of times larger than clinical trials). Also, remember that this isn't the first coronavirus. Medical science has already dealt with the SARS variant and the MERS variant and a bunch of others. By the time covid-19 hit, they already had a blueprint for how to build a vaccine. Isn't all that enough to prove that it's good to go? What else are you waiting for?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tunaman View Post
    Pay better attention to your news sources.
    My sources? I should pay better attention to my news sources? Me?

    Remember that big conversation we had last year for two months? Your news sources said that Trump was going to easily win the election. They were wrong about that. Then your news sources said that the election was rigged. They even did a huge audit in Arizona to try and prove it. That was a disaster. You've been wrong about a ton of stuff. So why am I the one who should be worried about where I get my information?


    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    A vaccine mandate affects one's personal health choice and livelihood, and the vaccinated have protection from those choosing not to get vaccinated.
    I see two things wrong with this mindset, which you might disagree with, but hear me out.

    1. There are some people who are immune-compromised and can't get the vaccine. My nephew is one of them. Unvaccinated people are putting him at an unnecessary risk. When it comes to an airborne virus, there's no such thing as personal health. Everyone's choice affects everyone else they come into contact with.

    2. Covid-19 is a living virus, and it's evolving. There are already five variants, and more are surely on the way. So far we've been lucky. The vaccines still work against these variants, but the longer the virus circulates among the unvaccinated, the greater the chance that it mutates into something we can't defend against. Then we're back to square one, and we might lose another 700,000 people. Therefore, it is in our society's best interest that we vaccinate at least 70% of our population (at least I think that's the right percentage). At that point, herd immunity should kick in and the virus should mostly die out.

    Quote Originally Posted by BigEvil View Post
    Plus.. maybe more people would trust the make believe vaccine if the manufacturer was held liable for injury it's product causes.
    You said this already. Did you see my response in post #17?

    Also, maybe more people would trust the vaccine if people stopped calling it the "make believe" vaccine. Or at least try to come up with a better nickname. Here, I'll help.

    The Fauci Ouchie
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    Last edited by rawbutter; 10-05-2021 at 09:47 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter
    Quote Originally Posted by nak81783
    rawbutter,
    Can you elaborate on why you support a vaccine mandate, but you don’t support a 15 year life for a compressed air tank? Aren’t both government imposed mandates for safety reasons?
    Sure. As soon as going_home and the others can explain to me why they they don't support vaccines even though they support 15-year lifespans for tanks. Both are for safety, after all, and covid has killed WAY more people than exploding tanks. If they're willing to buy new tanks and pay for hydro testing to keep themselves and others safe, why are they against a free vaccine that does the same thing?
    For what it's worth, that was a sincere question to get your perspective.

    Only speaking for myself, and attempting to keep it brief, tank requirements are a relatively small cost for a leisure activity to prevent a potential pipe bomb, and there are no protections from the potential pipe bomb other than hydro testing and limited life, both of which are very common for components that experience cyclic stress. A vaccine mandate affects one's personal health choice and livelihood, and the vaccinated have protection from those choosing not to get vaccinated.
    I guess it's also time to come clean about this. A few days ago, I started a thread complaining about tank hydro rules, but that was a farce. I was just using some satire to try and point out the inconsistencies of following tank rules (which keep people safe) but not following vaccine rules (which do the same thing). I know this might fall on some deaf ears, but even if it only helps one person better understand my point of view, that's good enough for me.

    I won't say anything more about that. If you're curious, go read the other thread. But thanks to Nak for noticing the inconsistency and calling me out.

    Now, on with the show! Who else has issues with the vaccine mandate? Let me hear it. I'll try to help out best I can.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    I guess it's also time to come clean about this. A few days ago, I started a thread complaining about tank hydro rules, but that was a farce. I was just using some satire to try and point out the inconsistencies of following tank rules (which keep people safe) but not following vaccine rules (which do the same thing). I know this might fall on some deaf ears, but even if it only helps one person better understand my point of view, that's good enough for me.

    I won't say anything more about that. If you're curious, go read the other thread. But thanks to Nak for noticing the inconsistency and calling me out.

    Now, on with the show! Who else has issues with the vaccine mandate? Let me hear it. I'll try to help out best I can.

  12. #42
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    Marxism is fine with you huh ?

    The abortion protesters favorite phrase, "keep your laws off my body", applies to an attempted forced untested vaccine.

    FDA wants to see years of new drug testing, not on this.

    If you have had measles, mumps, chicken pox, etc you don't need the vaccine.

    It's the same with this virus.

    In the words of Ted Nugent, baaa baaa baaa American sheeple that trust a chicom owned federal government.

    I feel bad for your students being fed communist propaganda.

    Everything you have said is an absolute farce.

    Good luck with your new book.

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  14. #44
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    A mandate is not law, it's not even a bill trying to become law.

    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    The government isn't firing private citizens. It's fining the business. There's a difference. Granted the end result might be the same, but there's an important legal distinction.
    Biden is going to impose a fine of $70,000 for a first time and $700,000 for a repeat against any company over 100 employees who hasn't broken any law, if they don't eliminate anyone who has not broken a law. And you say it's not excessive to pay a fine over something that doesn't break the law.
    I'm quite sure that if you had to pay a fine of any dollar amount for a non-law that you didn't do, you'd find it unreasonable and excessive.

    So the imposition of a fine over a mandate is a violation of the eighth amendment and under sec. 177 is legally described as treason.

    And no, I don't need any help concerning someone else's opinion and political sophistry. I have my own, thank you.
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  15. #45
    Again, I have to wonder why we're discussing this on a paintball forum, particularly in a subforum that says no political posts. I can't help but think that if the mods didn't share the political opinions expressed in the original post, they'd have removed this thread by now...which is disappointing.

  16. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by stircrazzzy View Post
    Again, I have to wonder why we're discussing this on a paintball forum, particularly in a subforum that says no political posts. I can't help but think that if the mods didn't share the political opinions expressed in the original post, they'd have removed this thread by now...which is disappointing.
    This thread gets more posts in less time than all others.

    The most impressive thing about Covid is how it turned a systemically racist patriarchy into a trustworthy government that cannot be questioned.

  17. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    Marxism yada yada yada yada yada?

    Yada yada yada yada yada, "yada yada yada yada yada yada", yada yada yada yada yada untested vaccine.

    FDA yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada , yada yada yada.

    Yada yada yada yada yada, yada, yada yada, etc. yada yada yada yada yada.

    Yada yada yada yada yada yada.

    Yada yada yada yada Ted Nugent, yada yada yada yada sheeple yada yada yada China yada yada yada.

    Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada communist propaganda.

    Yada yada yada yada yada yada yada yada.
    I don't know how to say this without being rude, but this is honestly how you sound to me at this point. You said it all before during the election thread we had last year. Nothing new. No logic. Just conspiracy theory buzz words. The ring wing media has been shouting "communism" at everything they don't agree with for 70 years now, and you've bought it hook, line, and sinker. You don't listen to the other side. You never consider that they might be right about something. So why should I bother listening or talking to you? I've had better conversations with a wall.


    Nuggent is a wacko. He once said that we should have nuked Iraq during Operation Desert Storm. I couldn't care less what he thinks.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrate Jim View Post
    A mandate is not law, it's not even a bill trying to become law.
    Yes, I know that mandates aren't laws, but that doesn't mean they don't have legal authority. The mandate simply instructs OSHA to change some rules to make this thing happen. The president has the authority to do this, and OSHA has the authority to do their part. That's one of the ways the systems works. Maybe not the best way, I'll admit, but it's all legal.

    Legally speaking, in fact, mandates are very similar to executive orders (which technically aren't laws either). President Trump famously signed one such order during the BLM protests to prevent the destruction of federal monuments, adding fines and 10 years of jail time to anyone convicted of that crime. Are you really telling me that you don't think that new order is legally binding? Or are you only pointing out the nuance now because you don't like this new rule?


    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrate Jim
    The most impressive thing about Covid is how it turned a systemically racist patriarchy into a trustworthy government that cannot be questioned.
    I don't know where you're getting this. Most Democrats still question Biden and the rest of his government. We're mad about Afghanistan. We're irritated about how the infrastructure bill is going. We don't put him on a pedestal the way you guys worshipped Trump. Yes, I completely agree about this vaccine stuff, but that doesn't mean I don't question anything else.

    Look at the opening skit from SNL last weekend, for crying out loud. There's a lot of questioning going on, even from the most liberal among us.

    Last edited by rawbutter; 10-07-2021 at 11:56 AM.

  18. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pyrate Jim View Post
    The imposition of a fine over a mandate is a violation of the eighth amendment and under sec. 177 is legally described as treason.
    Whoops. Almost forgot about this. Can you share a link to what you're talking about here? I've honestly never heard of section 177. I genuinely curious about what it says.

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  20. #50
    This is fun, I really love the part where some of you are talking AT others not with them. Reminds me of my drunk, racist, grandfather, who was an Army Major in WW2, complaining about how "DEM DEMS" being the problem with "THIS AMAZING COUNTRY!" Black and white thinking leads to an us vs them mentality. Seems like yall just want to fight the world instead of co-exist in it. Good luck.

  21. #51
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    splyncryth, that came off as if you're saying Republicans are racist because they reject Democrat ideas, curious if that was you intent?

  22. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    splyncryth, that came off as if you're saying Republicans are racist because they reject Democrat ideas, curious if that was you intent?
    Interpret my words however you want. Just remember your words on the internet will never be forgotten.

    /words
    Last edited by splyncryth; 10-07-2021 at 01:07 PM.

  23. #53
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  24. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by splyncryth View Post
    This is fun, I really love the part where some of you are talking AT others not with them. Reminds me of my drunk, racist, grandfather, who was an Army Major in WW2, complaining about how "DEM DEMS" being the problem with "THIS AMAZING COUNTRY!" Black and white thinking leads to an us vs them mentality. Seems like yall just want to fight the world instead of co-exist in it. Good luck.
    Yeah, you're right. I joined this thread because I wanted people to see both sides of the debate, but at this point I don't think that I'm adding anything new to the conversation. I've already said what I came here to say. I've given people enough information, hopefully, for them to make their own decision. If anyone has any more direct questions for me, I'll try to answer them, but I'm not going to respond to every meme and video. That's not worth my time.

    Stay safe out there.

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