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Thread: New Project

  1. #1
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    New Project

    I would like to have a paintball gun made. I have come up with two designs.

    First Design is an Automag or RT with a clam shell body like a Tippmann 98 Custom or Tippmann Cronus

    Second Design is a paintball gun with a clan shell body like a Tippmann 98 Custom or Tippmann Cronus and Kingman Spyder Popit Valve style Penumatics

    Any leads to gun names or help with creation would be appreaciated

    I like Fully Mechanical Paintball Guns. Tho if I had to have a spare I could go for an Electric Paintball Gun.

    These are a few of my Ideas that I wanted to share. I thought This is a good place to bring this up.

    So any help with the creation like CAD or Multiaxis CNCing like companys that can get the raw materials and the manufacturing of it would be appreciated.

    Feel free to Post Links and Valuable Information for this project or your own

    INFO
    Robert George Dimick Jr
    4 Windward Way, Baltimore, Maryland, 21220
    Phone 4434654943
    Fax 4103359319
    Last edited by robertgeorgedimickjr; 02-21-2022 at 09:40 PM.

  2. #2
    The mag idea is doable because all the pnumatics are contained in the mag valve. You could probably modify an existing 98 or a5 body to work with the valve in it. It would still be a lot of work but it's possible with a clamshell

    The spyder idea on the other hand, wouldn't work with a clamshell body or at a minimum, it wouldn't actually be a clamshell because internally you would need a solid tube to encase the valve in. You could run a clamshell over that but it would just be cosmetics and really I'm not sure it's possible with a 98 body as I don't believe there is enough room inside to have a solid body and then a clamshell on top. Most likely you would be designing and making the clamshell from scratch just to be a cosmetic piece. At that point I think you're best idea is to take an existing spyder and 3d print whatever body you want over top of it.

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  3. #3
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    https://www.automags.org/forums/show...e-Bodies/page2

    Why dont you just PM Luke and get one of the complete custom markers he's making ?


  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by going_home View Post
    https://www.automags.org/forums/show...e-Bodies/page2

    Why dont you just PM Luke and get one of the complete custom markers he's making ?

    Probably cause that is not what he is asking...

  5. #5
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    In all honesty, doing something custom like that, taking an mag valve and outting into a custom body will cost you money, like stupid amounts of money. Meaning this project will cost you more mo ey than it is worth. So you really have to think that what you're trying to do is worth it.

    You also have to think about why? If you want a sleeper, i.e. it looks like a M98 but is totally different; while that has some merit, it is not really that important anymore, as it doesn't matter how a paintball is delivered down range much anymore. But i also personally like to do things different.

    Asking someone to take on a project like this without any sort of mention of financial backing is not going to bring anyone to your door. I have done a few projects like this, highly modifying something but rarely have they gone to be finished with any sort of completion worth a damn.

    So, i would suggest you do as much leg work in getting a few bodies and a valve and just start playing around with how the valve would have to sit in the body halves, how you would connect the trigger, how close you need to be toward the feedneck and barrel, where the airlines would have to go, etc and so forth. In other words, there is a lot you can do and need to do. And doing as much as you can, even with you using a dremil and playing around with ideas would be a great start. Then when you reach a point where you need to have parts masvhined or precision cut, can you better approach someone with a tangible project to look for completion.

  6. #6
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    ^^^ lol

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    In all honesty, doing something custom like that, taking an mag valve and outting into a custom body will cost you money, like stupid amounts of money. Meaning this project will cost you more mo ey than it is worth. So you really have to think that what you're trying to do is worth it.
    It's not always about the price tag you know.

    If that's where you put the value cool, not everyone does

    Not to mention, according to your own reasoning, you should probably be shooting something like a spyder Victor or brass eagle. You said it's not important how the paintball gets down range and those markers will put paint down range. Compared to them, any automag costs stupid amounts of money but does the same thing

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  8. #8
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    If your really serious I can help with CAD design.

    I'm sure the AO machinists would be able to make the bodies, Given they have the time. Xmagterror or Luke are the AO machinists

    I have some reservations about the clamshell idea but its your project.

    I can absolutely tell you the whole thing wont be cheap.
    Quote Originally Posted by dano_____ View Post
    I keep forgetting to not feed my mags after midnight so they seem to multiply regularly.

  9. #9
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    I dont take jobs like this anymore, just to many other projects of my own I would rather do. In order to hijack the amount of my time it would take to do a project like this, from engineering, design, fixtures and machining, prototyping, not to mention only one body, would take a disposable income to get me interested, price would be well into the 5 figure range.

  10. #10
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    This thread is hilarious! Since he, weirdly, supplied is full contact info, I googled his address. If I was a gambling man, I'd say a guy in this size house, with an old Pontiac Grand AM parked outside, probably isn't going to have the deep pockets to fund something like this. Even the fact that his username is his actual full name is awesome!

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by trbo323 View Post
    It's not always about the price tag you know.

    If that's where you put the value cool, not everyone does

    Not to mention, according to your own reasoning, you should probably be shooting something like a spyder Victor or brass eagle. You said it's not important how the paintball gets down range and those markers will put paint down range. Compared to them, any automag costs stupid amounts of money but does the same thing

    Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk
    The cool factor to you is priceless and by all means should pursue it. I still have dreams of maming a closed bolt tippmann carbine, just because. But the cool factor doesn't bring people in to share your vision. Cost in time, even conceptionallly is the mitigating factor. Cost was not a scared factor but an understanding that they will come and completing them will sometimes be an expense that you may not be prepared for.

    As to my personal choices, they are also personal. There are always better ways to do a job, and then there are the personal ways to a job. Just like some prefer nelson-based pumps or sheridan or other based pumps. Literally different strokes for different folks.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    In all honesty, doing something custom like that, taking an mag valve and outting into a custom body will cost you money, like stupid amounts of money. Meaning this project will cost you more mo ey than it is worth. So you really have to think that what you're trying to do is worth it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    . Cost in time, even conceptionallly is the mitigating factor. Cost was not a scared factor but an understanding that they will come and completing them will sometimes be an expense that you may not be prepared for.
    So now you are trying to redefine cost as time?

    Which still doesn't matter anyway to someone committed to a project

    Honestly, if your are simply looking for a ROI you shouldn't be in paintball, each time you pull that trigger it's around 10 cents and that's not counting the time it takes you to accumulate gear, set it up, get to the field, play, etc.

    You do realize you have everyone who has ignored your mentality here to thank for the whole sport of paintball right? If Bud Orr came in here and said "hey I'm thinking of trying to make a semi automatic paintball marker" and you just convinced him that it takes too much money, effort and time, in effect we would all be shooting single action and pump still right?

    Luke wouldn't be making parts

    I wouldn't have done a cocker build that ended up taking 7 years and is the most fun marker I own

    Most manufacturers wouldn't be in the sport

    You can kiss your local shop/field goodbye



    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    As to my personal choices, they are also personal.

    Strange

    It's almost like Roberts personal choices are his and yours are yours

    And he decided to at least start thinking about committing to this project

    And yet you seem to be telling him everything that is your choice should effect his decision to make or not make this project.

    Maybe give him ideas on how it can happen rather than how it can't, it's almost like that's what he came here looking for in the first place

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  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by trbo323 View Post
    So now you are trying to redefine cost as time?

    Which still doesn't matter anyway to someone committed to a project

    Honestly, if your are simply looking for a ROI you shouldn't be in paintball, each time you pull that trigger it's around 10 cents and that's not counting the time it takes you to accumulate gear, set it up, get to the field, play, etc.

    You do realize you have everyone who has ignored your mentality here to thank for the whole sport of paintball right? If Bud Orr came in here and said "hey I'm thinking of trying to make a semi automatic paintball marker" and you just convinced him that it takes too much money, effort and time, in effect we would all be shooting single action and pump still right?

    Luke wouldn't be making parts

    I wouldn't have done a cocker build that ended up taking 7 years and is the most fun marker I own

    Most manufacturers wouldn't be in the sport

    You can kiss your local shop/field goodbye






    Strange

    It's almost like Roberts personal choices are his and yours are yours

    And he decided to at least start thinking about committing to this project

    And yet you seem to be telling him everything that is your choice should effect his decision to make or not make this project.

    Maybe give him ideas on how it can happen rather than how it can't, it's almost like that's what he came here looking for in the first place

    Sent from my motorola edge 5G UW (2021) using Tapatalk
    First off, i think this is a bogus thread. At the time of posting, who has 2 posts on this forum, comes out and says here i am. That person is either gravely naive or its a scam.

    Secondly, if a project means that much to you, then it really doesn't matter what i or anyone says in time or cost. You will out the blinders on and proceed, knowing that this is what you feel is right. I was stating that if the costs to you personally don't matter then have at it. But money is a determing factor to the people you might employ to help you. No one will really join you if their time and effort are not rewarded, financially. So while your idea might be cool, not everyone will be on the same page and not wish to waste time, effort or money that can be used in better means.

    Third, this person isn't trying to create a market, he is trying to redress a mag, putting it into a new body. You can not sell that, without some compensation to Tippmann for use of their bodies. If you were to create a totally new gun, with a clamshell that uses a blow forward valve that, is new and unique, then that is something totally different. Bud Orr took what Glenn Palmer did and marketed it, because there is a market. He didn't invent anything.

    Fourth, in today's world, if you can not get more value in for value spent, then it won't work. There are thousands of ideas in paintball that all died because no matter how good your idea might be, if it doesn't sell, then what good is it. Now, if it's a personal project and don't care about the money, fine. But do not tell me about that, as i have had conversations about new products that died when you have to pay for 50k items, just to justify the costs. When you make 1, its a totally different cost than 50,000 and you as sure going to try and get your money back on that.

    Fifth, thinking about a project is great, but he obviously has not, IMHO, thought about it enough. Any if i were to take on this project, then i would also want to know more than just a blanket statement of put this into that and call it a day.

    Sixth, i had no viable shop around me and my field was 2 hrs away from me. So, those aspects were dead to me to begin with. Very small shops and small fields did pop up from time to time, but you never had either last more than a year because of my area. So i know the symbiotic relationship that they have.

    And lastly, i already told him the help. If everything i had stated in negative wasn't going to dissuade you from starting this, then be my guest. But, again, i think this is a prank. If not, reread what i wrote. I can't figure out where to put the barrel on his project, since the valve would be at the rear most of the m98 body and the m98 barrel is at the other end. There is a lot of dead space in between the 2 that needs to addressed.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    In all honesty, doing something custom like that, taking an mag valve and outting into a custom body will cost you money, like stupid amounts of money. Meaning this project will cost you more mo ey than it is worth. So you really have to think that what you're trying to do is worth it.

    You also have to think about why? If you want a sleeper, i.e. it looks like a M98 but is totally different; while that has some merit, it is not really that important anymore, as it doesn't matter how a paintball is delivered down range much anymore. But i also personally like to do things different.

    Asking someone to take on a project like this without any sort of mention of financial backing is not going to bring anyone to your door. I have done a few projects like this, highly modifying something but rarely have they gone to be finished with any sort of completion worth a damn.

    So, i would suggest you do as much leg work in getting a few bodies and a valve and just start playing around with how the valve would have to sit in the body halves, how you would connect the trigger, how close you need to be toward the feedneck and barrel, where the airlines would have to go, etc and so forth. In other words, there is a lot you can do and need to do. And doing as much as you can, even with you using a dremil and playing around with ideas would be a great start. Then when you reach a point where you need to have parts masvhined or precision cut, can you better approach someone with a tangible project to look for completion.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    First off, i think this is a bogus thread. At the time of posting, who has 2 posts on this forum, comes out and says here i am. That person is either gravely naive or its a scam.

    Secondly, if a project means that much to you, then it really doesn't matter what i or anyone says in time or cost. You will out the blinders on and proceed, knowing that this is what you feel is right. I was stating that if the costs to you personally don't matter then have at it. But money is a determing factor to the people you might employ to help you. No one will really join you if their time and effort are not rewarded, financially. So while your idea might be cool, not everyone will be on the same page and not wish to waste time, effort or money that can be used in better means.

    Third, this person isn't trying to create a market, he is trying to redress a mag, putting it into a new body. You can not sell that, without some compensation to Tippmann for use of their bodies. If you were to create a totally new gun, with a clamshell that uses a blow forward valve that, is new and unique, then that is something totally different. Bud Orr took what Glenn Palmer did and marketed it, because there is a market. He didn't invent anything.

    Fourth, in today's world, if you can not get more value in for value spent, then it won't work. There are thousands of ideas in paintball that all died because no matter how good your idea might be, if it doesn't sell, then what good is it. Now, if it's a personal project and don't care about the money, fine. But do not tell me about that, as i have had conversations about new products that died when you have to pay for 50k items, just to justify the costs. When you make 1, its a totally different cost than 50,000 and you as sure going to try and get your money back on that.

    Fifth, thinking about a project is great, but he obviously has not, IMHO, thought about it enough. Any if i were to take on this project, then i would also want to know more than just a blanket statement of put this into that and call it a day.

    Sixth, i had no viable shop around me and my field was 2 hrs away from me. So, those aspects were dead to me to begin with. Very small shops and small fields did pop up from time to time, but you never had either last more than a year because of my area. So i know the symbiotic relationship that they have.

    And lastly, i already told him the help. If everything i had stated in negative wasn't going to dissuade you from starting this, then be my guest. But, again, i think this is a prank. If not, reread what i wrote. I can't figure out where to put the barrel on his project, since the valve would be at the rear most of the m98 body and the m98 barrel is at the other end. There is a lot of dead space in between the 2 that needs to addressed.
    As usual, I'm trying to figure out why you think your opinion has any relevance here. (That's a statement not a question, see the punctuation) What people choose to do, or not to do, is simply none of your business unless they ask for your input. Clearly, your opinion as stated is completely irrelevant in the thread. Robert is looking for help on a project, it doesn't matter if you agree with what he wants to do or how much money it will cost, or even if you think its a legit ask.

    That said, everyone has an opinion, its human nature, its how we process the world, but you seem to have a problem understanding when your opinion matters or when it doesn't. Most of us, more often than not simply say nothing because we know what we think doesn't matter in the conversation, you apparently don't have an off switch.

    Not everything in this world needs to be met with your approval or understanding, "Mr. People Pay Me For My Opinion." (Yea I didn't forget that, Mr Embarrassed Of What I Do For A Living)

  15. #15
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    ^^^ LOL go Luke

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    As usual, I'm trying to figure out why you think your opinion has any relevance here. (That's a statement not a question, see the punctuation) What people choose to do, or not to do, is simply none of your business unless they ask for your input. Clearly, your opinion as stated is completely irrelevant in the thread. Robert is looking for help on a project, it doesn't matter if you agree with what he wants to do or how much money it will cost, or even if you think its a legit ask.

    That said, everyone has an opinion, its human nature, its how we process the world, but you seem to have a problem understanding when your opinion matters or when it doesn't. Most of us, more often than not simply say nothing because we know what we think doesn't matter in the conversation, you apparently don't have an off switch.

    Not everything in this world needs to be met with your approval or understanding, "Mr. People Pay Me For My Opinion." (Yea I didn't forget that, Mr Embarrassed Of What I Do For A Living)
    I am not embarrassed one iota of what i do. It is not glamorous nor very exciting but it pays the bills.

    Any time you take on a project like this, creating something that never existed, is huge. Huge in money, time and effort. If you don't have all 3 of those things then no matter how passionate you are, it will never get started.

    I never said that the project was stupid, unnecessary or whatever, only having just an idea won't get it done. Like you said, you wouldn't touch something like that for less than 5 figures. While i might doubt your ability, i don't doubt your cost estimate, as that is generally the time and effort of most machinists to do such a job. I am merely just laying out what is needed, i.e. playing devil's advocate for him.

    So if what i have said doesn't matter or even if what i said helps him think it out more, then why would my opinion on it matter to you? Again, the person made 2 posts, and the legitimacy of the person actually wanting this is suspect.

  17. #17
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    Come on guys show the new guy some respect and don't clutter his first post with bickering.

    Whatever his project is. Just give him the respect you would want. And likely received when you were new here on AO.

  18. #18
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    I use onecnc, it can be a PITA but it's affordable and you own the software (No maintenance fees) Mill Advantage is $2250 and Mill Expert is $3000
    I started on XR3 and have continually upgrade with the new releases.

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    Last edited by luke; 01-10-2022 at 04:41 PM.

  19. #19
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    You might want to send an email to Inception Designs. They have done complete marker body designs for Autocockers and Emeks, so this might be something they would be interested in. Like others have said, though, you really might have to wave a big wad of cash in their face to get them to even listen to you. They probably already have more than enough projects and ideas to keep them busy, so you'll have to offer them a hefty incentive to get them interested enough to give your design a try. Machinists and CNC guys typically make at least $30 per hour, so even if it only takes them 100 hours to do your project (which is a really low guesstimate), you're looking at $3000 or more for a prototype.

    Another company you might want to consider is whoever makes the Alpha Black kits for Tippmann markers. The machinery involved to make clamshell parts is very different from the machinery needed to do CNC work (which is what Inception Designs does), so you might have better luck pitching your idea to a company that already has the equipment you need. That way they don't have to go out and buy a new $30,000 machine just to make your one part.

    So...if you've got the time and the disposable cash for something like this, then I say that's awesome. Go for it. And please post up the results so the rest of us mere mortals can drool over it. But if you don't feel comfortable spending that kind of money, don't feel bad. A lot of us have had great ideas in the past and tried to get them made, and then once we realized how much money it actually costs to get something done like that, we had to shrug and give up.

    Here's something else to consider, however. If you really do have that kind of money lying around, why spend the time making a new marker? What is it about that that interests you so much? Do you think this design is better somehow that all the other designs already out there? Or do you just want something unique? Please do tell.

    If it were me, personally....if I had the money lying around, I would invest that money in a new, limited edition Automag. There are already tons of awesome custom Automag parts, but a lot of them aren't made anymore because the only way to get them cheap is to make them in really high numbers. Someone with cash could really make something special, however. Build a few hundred custom Automags. Make the all pneumags with a nice, simple, rare anno like dust black or something like that. Make all the x-valves with reverse ports. You know, simple stuff like that that's just different and rare enough to make it really special. Hell, I bet you could even make a little money from a project like that. If you make enough, the cost might go down enough to make it marketable.

    I have no ideas about what kind of numbers you would need to make something like that. You'd have to email Tim at AGD and ask him about it. And again, you'd have to wave a big wad of cash. But it's worth thinking about.

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertgeorgedimickjr View Post
    How could I find out about the patents from other guns and companies that are in affect.
    If you're hoping to just get something custom-made for yourself, I don't think you need to worry about patents. No one is going to sue you over a single paintball gun. You're not making money from their design, so why go through all the time and effort to stop you?

    If you're planning to make a few thousand and sell them, however, that's another story. At that point you're creating a new paintball company, and I'm sure you will need to hire lawyers and patent clerks to check things out for you.

    Again, you might want to talk to a company like Inception Designs or Nummech. They've already done projects somewhat similar to what you have in mind, so they might know more about it than any of us.

  21. #21
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    If you find a shop that does r&d for $30 an hour that would be a BIG red flag to me, that said, rawbutter is clearly confused between the hourly rate of a machine operator and what shop rates are.

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by luke View Post
    If you find a shop that does r&d for $30 an hour that would be a BIG red flag to me, that said, rawbutter is clearly confused between the hourly rate of a machine operator and what shop rates are.
    When I heard $30 an hour as well I too was curious about this low ball machine shop rate
    68 Automag Classic, ReTro valve, Lvl. 10, 16" Dye Boomstick, AGD chrome Intelliframe, Shocktech black cradle, Air America Armegeddon 114/4500, Smartparts gadget grip

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  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by pimped mag 01 View Post
    When I heard $30 an hour as well I too was curious about this low ball machine shop rate
    You're right. I was thinking about my buddy who works as a small local machine shop and makes about $30/hour. But yeah...that's just what he gets. That's not what the shop charges.

    What kind of rate should Robert expect, then, for R&D and prototyping?

  24. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by rawbutter View Post
    You're right. I was thinking about my buddy who works as a small local machine shop and makes about $30/hour. But yeah...that's just what he gets. That's not what the shop charges.

    What kind of rate should Robert expect, then, for R&D and prototyping?
    Rule of thumb is normally labor is 3x what the material is. At least on the self employed carpenter side. Mark up material 5% or pay cash and no mark-up. But a specialty trade such as a machinist is like a cabinet maker and I imagine can charge more
    Last edited by pimped mag 01; 01-12-2022 at 05:45 PM.

  25. #25
    Haha you beat my edit by a second Luke

  26. #26
    When selecting a dedicated software development team https://mlsdev.com, make sure that you interview several prospective teams before hiring one. Ask as many questions as possible and find the best one for your project. Once you've found a suitable team, you can begin your project. After hiring a dedicated team, it is important to keep in touch and control the progress of the project. And as with any project, communication is key to success. In a dedicated team, you can expect regular updates and feedback, which is a great advantage in the software market.
    Last edited by MarcoSen; 01-19-2022 at 09:34 AM.

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertgeorgedimickjr View Post
    even if I buy CAD software I would still need.. Machines and Raw materials... Any Ideas...
    You would also need experience and skills. That's just as important as the software and machines.

    Just to give you an idea....I also wanted to design my own thing. Not a whole paintball gun. Just a small trigger valve. Despite having little to no machine experience, I bought my own milling machine and lathe, and I taught myself how to do all the procedures required. Amazingly, I didn't lose any fingers in the process. In the end, I did succeed and creating the SPAR valve.

    BUT, it took me over two years to learn all the skills required. It took hundreds of hours of watching YouTube videos and practicing. I broke tool bits and went through about a dozen prototypes before I figured out a process that works. And if you add up all that time and all the money I spent for tools and labor, it would have probably been cheaper to pay someone else to do it. Not to mention all the space I lost in my garage to new tools.

    I'm not saying this to discourage you. I'm just trying to be honest and clear so you know what to expect if this is the route you decide to take. To me, it was worth it because I got to learn something new, and now I have the tools to do lots of other neat projects. (And I'm retired, so I have tons of free time.) But for you....well, only you can answer that question. Do you just want the end result? Or are you more interested in the journey and the skills/tools you will acquire on the way? Neither answer is "wrong" or "right." It just comes down to what you want to do with your time and money.

  28. #28
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    Classic automag, rt classic and emag rails started as a extrusion. Then they were milled to shape then all slots and holes were added.

    Xmags were also started from extrusions as well with more work after.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by robertgeorgedimickjr View Post
    I was offered solid works for $800
    You can NOT buy Solidworks for $800, sounds like someone stole it and is now scamming you. There are 3 packages available (Basic, Professional, and Premium) Basic price with one license of SolidWorks is a standard is $3995 with an annual maintenance fee of $1295 and price only goes up from there.

    Luke do you have any templates you would like to give or sell?
    Nope

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
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    Be careful something sounds very fishy there. As Luke said solidworks is much more expensive. The only way to get it is thru one of the solidworks approved vendors. GO to the solidworks web page and there is a located vendor tab somewhere.

    With the amount of work it takes to create CAD files you are not likely to find many who will share. Also beware of any download able files as I have found many contain errors. But the can make a good start.

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