Why the E-Mag isn't a "MainStream" gun

[MiniMagger2002]

hey

I jsut had a thought. I was recently wondering why so many pro's use angels over e-mags, since i thought the e-mag had everything the angel did and it was smaller. i had found out that for some apperent reason, not many people on other forums (like pbnation.com) like mags at all, much less e-mags. so what is wrong with them?


hey just wonderin

[marley618]

It's all because of sponsers.

[FrAuStY]

Mags don't get the glittery spotlight it deserves. So many people follow the herd mentality that a sparkly Triple-chromed, quad color anoed, super duper angels/cockers shoots more accurately or farther than a mag. This isn't true.
The only way I can explain it is herd mentality. The pro's use them because they are sponsored, and you know how herds think. If the lead guy uses it.. it's gotta be the best. Well.. I'm sorry to burst angel/cocker owners' bubbles, but the Extreme emag WILL be the NEXT BIG DOG of paintball guns. Angels can't touch them with the ACE's installed. No other marker has been test beyond 26 recharges a sec without shootdown. No other marker has been video taped at 20 bps without a chop. Also.. with the Emagnum board.. OMG, I can't explain the feeling I get inside when I hear about the BAD***ES. They just can't match it. AGD has brought paintball to where it is and WDP and WGP has just been riding the train making their guns more attractive rather than more functional.

[ZSigErik]

Nicely said my Comrade in AGD Arms!

[Top Secret]

I actually find it rather amusing to see people make fun of my "tube" while they hold their mainstream gun. After a few games, they are cleaning out goo or fixing their gun, while I'm loading up more pods.

[Lone Gunman]

Like in Bud commercials... True

I don't like following the herd mentality, thats one of the reasons I got a mag.

[rjvemt1]

jeeez frausty, preach it brotha!

[FrAuStY]

Thank you to those who see it my way

You will find Mags don't get the respect they deserve! As said time and time before.. you simply can't KILL a mag!

*EDIT*Let me re-phrase that.. you can KILL any gun... mags just don't DIE!

[rjvemt1]

tk should do one of those old samsonite suitcase ads for mags. have some large rental player throw it on the ground then jump up and down on it then pick it up and keep shootin.

[WickeDKlowN]

i dont know about other ppl, but i actually dont want mags to go mainstream. one of the reasons i got a mag is because theyre not and i like to be different. thats why i drink faygo and listen to icp.

[WickeDKlowN]

i like rjvemt1's idea, TK should do a commercial where firt they get pissed and throw down a cocker and the pneumatics break off or something, then they do it with a mag but after there done whining, they pick it up and keep shooting.

[xatle]

im thinking more along a woods game where a guy with a generic looking marker with some pneumatics on the front of it jams up and yells to his team mate about gun trouble, his team mate just happens to have a spare mag wedged in next to his remote tank(does anyone do that?) pulls it out and throws it to em....slow motion sceen with the guy with his hand out stretched and the gun flipping threw the air giving people the impression that the gun is going to magically land perfectly in his hand when it abruptly hits a tree branch, smacks a couple large rocks, lands in the dirt a few feet away, guy picks it up, slaps his tank and hopper on and procedes to own the other team.

OR...
maybe a big foot gets hit buy a stray round and takes it out on a guys mag....

[Blazingace]

I have a very active imagination and that was extremely funny. Xatle, I would be willing to help make a commercial like that. Except have it at full speed until the 'Mag bounces. The whole game stops as and watches as he picks it up puts on his hopper and tank and gogges the nears Angel player. But back on the subject Frausty is 100% correct. In the newest edition of PB 2 extreme they stated that since GZ timmy using teams have won the last few major tourneys, Timmy sales have gone up drastically. Get a few Extreme e-mag teams smoking the competition in print with great pictures and they will become "popular".

[rudy]

MiniMagger2002 there is quite a few reasons the mag is not main stream when i started laying the mag was the gun to have it was very mainstream at least in my area. But many different things happenned some myths some partly true, and the mag began to get a bad rep. Other companies layed heavily into spoonsors and deals to get teams and stores to shoot thier guns. and it works very well almost every guy at the local feild has an angel cause wdp gave them a deal. One big problem with mags was the powerfeed plug and ball chopping if i started running and shooting i always chopped, untill I got the new powerfeed plug. the other problem is with a mag It pretty much sucks if you do break a ball for any reason thier is not good quick way to clean up the bolt, and you have to do that to really get you accuracy back up to speed. then there are little things when they all add up a person doesnt buy a gun. The mag is not very effecient. like I prefer guns where the air input is in the front so i dotn have a big hose running to the back of my gun. and I like guns where the colors can be mostly matched, with the mag and the SS body that just didnt happen very well. Look at all the "tricked" mags you see here most of them look very similar and have mostly the same accessories on them. Hard to make a gun your own with its own personality in that case. for a while people just said well if you shoot good paint you shouldnt have that problem, but we dont haev that option all the time and if another gun cna shoot the bad paint then it really is the gun. Now days it seems AGD is doing alot to address all these issues. and with the new faster loaders coming out I think things will change the only thing i still worry about is if you do break a ball there needs to be a way to clean the bolt off good after a break.

[MrMag]

i just love it when i talk to ppl at my field and tell them about the fact that a emag can outshoot an angel, and they tell me i lie. i then direct them to odyssey's website. two videos:

1.emag w/ halo. 20pbs
2.angel w/ halo. 13pbs

[FrAuStY]

Rudy

I agree in some parts with what you're saying about the cleaning of the gun. I have a solution. Battle Swab and jerk squeege. If I have a break on the field.. I jerk squeege the brrel and while I have it off I swab the bolt. Put the barrel back on and get back on it. There are prices to pay for everymarker. Wether its money or improvisation that you pay with..its up to you. You can buy a 1500$ cocker setup.. that you can pull one pin to strip bolt so you can run your squeege through the hole gun. I'd much rather have my 500$ mag, and not have to worry about all that stuff.

Back to topic
It is, after all, a personal preference on what marker to use. I just think that with all the young players who are not as knowledgable as most of the experienced players about what guns are reliable and which are eyecandy. All I can say is to answer his question.. its all about the herd mentality! Unless you don't care about the lifespan of your particualr gun you would go with AGD. I often wonder why people who spend 1000-1300$ for cockers.. often get rid of them after a year or two.. For a NEWER! BETTER! MORE HIGHPERFORMANCE MODEL '02cocker or '02 angel! ????? Are these people just stupid!? Do you really need to spend all this money if you're only gonna replace it two years later? If thats the case.. get a spyder! they're only 100$ Anyway.. I apologize if any takes offense to this. Rudy.. that wasn't directed at you only the first paragraph.

[Jesse_K]

I can tell you guys exactly why mag's arnt mainstream


Its because their are so many markers out there that are better than mags that their presence arnt really felt. You got Angel's, Autocockers, Timmys, Impulses, I mean nuff said man


Mags just dont hold up, their are few people who use mags and its for personall preference. Maybe when one of you people on here get to the pro's, than you can make some big deal about how mags need more spotlight.

But untill than, it needs to earn its spot in the light, which is has yet to do.

And dont start tryin to bash me just beacuse i make a valid point either.

[AcemanPB]

well from what i've seen the e-mag can most certianly hold it's own agianist timmy's cockers and angels, the emag does get the job done faster and in a smaller package.

now my guess is to why alot of people don't use mags is because

1. sponsorship - i think this has already been covered
2. eyecandy - mags aren't the most beautiful gun around, but with those nice C+C extremes comin out.....
3. mags have had problem with chopping we all know it, but lvl 10 should fix this
4. there is not a large selection of aftermarket parts, i mean ya got 5-6 different grip frames, it's hard to find mag barrels in some stores,and most mags look preety much alike

ok now don't get wrong here i like mags

[AcemanPB]

oh and i forgot one other example i read some where in this fourm

lets say at this store mag and cocker cost the same $300

ok a kid comes in and buys a cocker 300
next week comes in and buys new bolt
next week comes in and buys new pneumatics
next week comes in and buy new trigger frame
next week comes in and his gun is messed up pays to have it fixed
next week comes in and buys ... you get the picture


ok now if that kid bought a mag
next week comes in maybes buys a barrel and then he's not comin back

so some stores look at this and don't stock mags, this is just my guess

[FrAuStY]

Jesse_K-

LOL! I'm not gonna bash.. just gonna say.. defend your statement. How is an Angel "BETTER" than my mag. How long will your COCKER live? Better yet.. how many days has it been since it was repaired due to some leak/hiss?! You know what..never mind.. you're a cow as far as I'm concerned... following the herd in a belief that cockers have elves that make them shoot farther and straighter! Guarantee you..my mag lives longer than any cocker. 15 years from now.. it'll still be kickin.

[SGTKennedy]

all i have to say is.... CF00147.
AGD made it around 91. It was sent in in 92 to get a new fixed (non-removable) powertube. Was used as a Rental gun for 10 years until i got it. we ALL know how rental guns get treated. the point is: Does it still work? yep.
Have i ever seen a cocker shoot even close to that long? ha.
-kennedy

[aabokla]

Mag owners don’t follow the herd mentality??? I can’t see where this line of thought has any real basis. Herd mentality? If one marker can dominate the market in performance requirements then all other things considered equal, that marker is going to dominate the market.

For those of you unfamiliar to what paintball was like before WDP came onto the scene with the angel, the marker of choice was either a cocker or a mag. The “herd mentality” followed the mag. The automag was a herd leader. It was only with the arrival of the angel that the pendulum swung from the automag to the angel.

If you wanted a high rate of fire and a reliable marker then the choice was an automag. Cockers were used in tournaments, but the autococker being produced then was very different from the autococker being produced today; many of the now standard features on the current production model could only be had through expensive custom shops. The automag lead the pack, but then something happened. Its number one claim to fame of being able to shoot the fastest was lost.

Yes, some people can shoot their automag at an insane pace and outdo what an angel can do, but the angel made shooting the trigger faster and easier for a wider range of people. I’m not a super fast trigger guy but I’m not a ham-fisted player either. I played with my mag for quite a long time, but then I switched over to the angel simply because I could fire faster with it without fear of short stroking the trigger. I think a lot of people switched over to the electro’s simple because for the first time they could fire at a rate that had previously been attainably by only the top end players.

Even the RT with it’s ultra fast recharging and reactive trigger has a fair amount of competition when keeping up with the electro’s out there. Electro’s just seemed to have made the playing field a little more even handed for those of us without the natural born skill of a fast trigger finger.

Now the angles are competing against other electro’s that are offering the same benefits without the exorbitant price tag and they are feeling the pinch of competition. AGD is attempting to recapture and advance it’s own market share with the E-mag.

Why are cockers still on the tournament scene? Some people, due to the way the gun feels in their hands, can shoot more accurately with a cocker than a mag. Some people still play with their original automag; they know their own equipment and they know how their equipment responds under a given circumstance.

Personally, I play with a variety of markers. I’ve enjoyed my angel, my mag, and my autococker equally.

I think why there aren’t more glossy photos of automags in play is because AGD has yet to recapture its position as the tournament marker of choice. Before the birth of the electro’s the only competition AGD had for that premier position was WGP (autococker). Now it’s trying to catch up with its e-mag line but the playing field has grown with many, many more contenders/sponsors.

[rjvemt1]

Maybe when one of you people on here get to the pro's, than you can make some big deal about how mags need more spotlight

get to the pro's? let me tell you something kid; there are no "pro's". i dont think enybody earns there entire income from PLYIN paintball. aside from the cocker,wich is a bud orr sniperII with pnuematics(that leak easily)all of the guns you mentioned are relletivly new on the martet. in 11 years lets see how many are still being made!

Look at all the "tricked" mags you see here most of them look very similar and have mostly the same accessories on them

other than fancy colors please explain how any of the 'mainstream' markers show the personality and style of the owner.

[rudy]

rjvemt1 please note i did not say the gun portrays the owners personality. But what I said is very true the tons of accessories are a big part of the gun if you are into a cirtain color or style you can "trick" your gun out with bling bling you get my drift. it doesnt matter if it is right or matters in the game it makes the person feel good about thier gun and it most cases it does not hurt the gun. not true with a mag most aftermarket parts can mess it up. look at angels and cockers now selling like hotcakes off the display at my local store guess what every guy who buys one gets a different one. fly,tatoo,wing,stock... and then all different colors. mix and match them and you have like 30 different possible guns for each market and thats before you even get into accessories and custom guns. that makes each gun feel unique to the owner. Heck half these guys are upgrading from one angel to another. same with cockers. most people have a bit of ADD and need stuff to change to keep them interested.

FrAuStY for 500$ you can get a bushmaster, impulse, or cocker that can all be cleaned with quick removal of the bolt, 1 squeegee and wiping the bolt on your shirt. with your setup I have to carry 2 things plus take my barrel off then squeegee it and jam the swab in it and the bolt still wont be clean. its the paint on the side of the bolt that kills me it replenishes its inaccuracy every time the bolt moves forward.

Now the mag has a couple things going for it and in reality its an amazing gun. I mean you can buy the same design all the way from a 300$ classic too a 1300 Xtreme all from the same company. and it has the fastest regulator in the market not only that but it wont break down its a durable gun. but that isnt good enough to sell the gun now it has to have a real advantage in I would say at least 3 areas to break back into the market. and be equal to all other high end guns everywhere else. the mag is small but being small is really not all that great unless its mass is low too. I think that AGD should be offering a reduced wieght valve and bolt. for its top of the line gun, the xtreme. the gun is fast the only thing i can say with that is tk dont be bashfull show people the gun can kick far past 20 blow every one out of the water, other companies arent affraid to flaunt numbers with shootdown show us how fast the mag can go. show the thing doinf 30 bps if it can and get it up to the 26 without shootdown. And f we dont have a solution to the cleaning the bolt the thing better not ever break a ball in or near the breach. If AGD can pull this off the mag will come back up to mainstream. and all kinds of people will be buying them for no other reason then they saw soem pro shooting it or cause it looked pretty. but of course AGD cant stop there they have to keep going integrated hoppers and what not. It wont surprise me if right now wdp is already working with a cirtain someone many of us know on a integrated hopper.

[Jesse_K]

Originally posted by aabokla

For those of you unfamiliar to what paintball was like before WDP came onto the scene with the angel, the marker of choice was either a cocker or a mag. The “herd mentality” followed the mag. The automag was a herd leader. It was only with the arrival of the angel that the pendulum swung from the automag to the angel.

I dont think that i could have said it better myself. I have absolutly no argument about the mag being one of the leading markers before the angel came out. And i have no comment about the e-mag being able to perform like an angel. But the thing is . . . . well lets see like my friend from A.I.R says " Electro's are like tampons, every pu$$y has one "

The pendulum might have swung from the mag to the angel but one thing did not change, one marker still stood tall and that was . . . . you guessed it . . everyone's favorite marker . . . THE COCKER!!!!!

Oh and btw rjvemt1, i just read your little post.

First of all who the hell are you calling kid?> You have no idea of how old i am, in fact i could be old enuff to be your daddy son.

Second of all, YES there are pro's making their main income off of paintball. Maybe not all Playing it, but somehow paintball related.

And third, you can put money on the fact that Shockers Impulses to say the least will still be around and being improved. I dont think that Smart Parts is going anywhere soon.

And another thing that i see alot of around this place is misconception. You people still think that autococker are still a weekly repair thing. That they leak air all over the place. Dont perform well.

Well, it seem's like to me that nobody has been playing with new autocockers ( 2k and above, Dye, Orracle's, Freeflows, Evolutions ) These are all very reliable markers rite out of the box. NO LEAKS, NO DAILY BREAKING OF THE GUN none of that nonsence. Alot of sterotypes around here.

[xatle]

i have to agree with jesse_k about the new cockers, they dont seem to have nearly as much trouble as they get credit for, and they very well shouldnt at this point. think of the steam engine you could build with todays tech, id bet my last dime it would notably excede the early reciprocating combustion engines in every catagory. in the same way, todays tech allows a well built pump marker to compete with the real semi's, and a well built mechanical marker to compete with the real electro's, and they all have just about as much problems as you should expect from a $1000+ marker, witch is next to none beyond some fine tuning.

what i think we need to focus on is how does a marker that can barely do better than 12 bps and has a 3+mm trigger pull lead the pack in a world with mags and angels fireing the same grouping only they do it at 15+ bps, reliability goes to the mag, light weight goes to the angel(i think), so how?

[AcemanPB]

wow, okay anyway i would like to point out this one fact, you can go to alot of fields (especially mine) and see quite a few guys with cockers, now for MOST of them not all you can ask them why they bought a cocker over XYZ gun

and this is thier #1 reply, "because it is the most accurate gun"

now most all of us know this is not true thier have been countless test proving that paint to barrel match is the key to accuracy, so here is your misconception right here.

the main reason you don't see alot of mags on the field is AGD's fault, they should put some more money into advertising. Just open up any paintball magizines and count all the AGD adds you see.

yet i still don't get why alot of people buy cockers, they're not the fastest, lightest, or most reliable gun on the market. the only reason i could see why people buy them all the time is because they can replace every little part and spend about 1000 bucks on all these upgrades that do nothing to the guns performance...

(ahh i think this is turning into a mag vs. cocker debate )

[MCollier]

cockers have a flatter shot trajectory. In other words its much "easier" to aim.

[xatle]

cocker balistics are the same as every other marker that doesnt have a flatline barrel or z-body, physics demands it.

rather than have this be a cocker vs. mag thread, i think it should be a thread all about cockers, cause obviously we are missing something if cockers out sell every other tourny marker without being superior in some way.

[rudy]

xatle i agree with you cockers sell like mad they too are a rare breed of gun that ranges so much in price. first of all like i said before they have accessories you can buy junk for the rest of your life for a cocker and always feel like some how your gun is getting better or become more unique. watch the classifieds at pbnation seems like every guy thinks his cocker is a total 1 of a kind that every one else will want.

I wont get into the whole accuracy debate but I do believe that at long ranges the operation of soem guns might possibly be able to be more accurate if they fire the ball with more consistency and less spin. I would like to see several real good studies on spin. look at your gun and shoot some 2 tone paint out and see if your gun shoots the ball with no spin. you can usually see soem spin soem times more some times less. maybe at long ranges that spin creats just enough inconsistency to matter.

ok but thats not what i really think makes cockers accurate or percieved to be accurate. i think its 1 because almost all cockers are fairly front heavy and that is basically like sensitivity in a video game a cocker has lower sensitivity. its weight in the front helps you to keep a steady aim. just like a long barrel can assist you. Also the kick of a cocker is very small when fired because the bolt doesnt move till most likely after the ball has left the barrel. also when i cocker does kick its nothign liek the massive kick i get with my mag or angel even with a superbolt. harder to keep a gun on target when you are getting quite a bit of muzzle rise. or maybe its just possible in real world use that guns who kick up when used force the ball to ride the bottom of the barrel which results in a small amount of forward spin.

heh even if none of it is true im sure some company can marketsomething to "fix" that