The last problem in the automag valve

FreshmanBob · 07-23-2002, 04:41 PM

I got to thinking last night and realized something about the on/off of the mag. This is kina long and tell me if your confused but it makes sense to me.

At this point a level 10 classic or RT (I think this will work on an RT, not positive) valve is pretty nice, can't chop, recharges plenty fast and has plenty of potential for high rates of fire as well as being very reliable. There is however, one last thing to improve. I'm talking about the trigger here. Now, I'm not firmilar enough with the RT to say if this will apply to it also but in the classic mag, it'd be a nice improvement.

The problem lies in the trigger pull. Most mag's have a very stiff and snappy trigger pull. Like everything, there is a reason for this. It lies in the on/off pin. This has nothing to do with flow but just a small bit of metal that could be milled off and make a huge difference in the trigger.

In a normal mag, the 400+ psi comes in from the reg and pushes down the on/off. This inturn pushes the sear down and locks the bolt in place. It is this pressure that is causing the stiffness of the trigger.

Now think of the on/off pin, just a cylinder of metal with a bit taken off at the bottom so you know which side goes up. It is the on under engineered peice in the system. Next lets think of the pin in the off position, sealed against the o ring. Now let's gas the gun up, the incoming 400+ psi pushes directly down on the pin. Think of this X amount of force on the pin. Now what if we were to mill down part of the pin about 1/4" from where it seals and make the pin very thin, say 1/8" and making the rest of the seals small enough to accomodate this.

Now we have the gas working against it's self. It's pushing down on the top of the pin and at the same time pushing up at part we milled down. Think of it like this

___ <----- gas pushes down here
I I
l <------- and up down there
l

Now that we have the gas working against it's self, the trigger pull will be much lighter and accomplish the same thing the stock pin does.

This is the basic idea behind the galactic on/off pin, factually the only peice worth buying for the automag valve because of this flaw, the last in the automag.

**Cristobal** · 07-23-2002, 07:50 PM

If I follow you correctly, that sounds like the pin in the RT On/Off assembly or in the z-valve

FreshmanBob · 07-23-2002, 08:07 PM

That's what I'm saying needs to be in the automag classic valve.

**magnj** · 08-08-2002, 07:59 PM

then get an rt or a reactor valve( the one made by galactic ) I mean I know what ur saying they should make it stock but. i dont know if they ever will. they shud but oh well

**Mossman** · 08-16-2002, 11:41 AM

Its a good idea. Thing is, i dont find the trigger pull any lighter on my RT's that i've owned than other mags that i've shot. Maybe totally reworking the pin assembly would be in order. Such as making the middle extremely wide, and almost a sideways "P" shape going up into the middle, so the gas is pushing up on the pin as much as its pushing in. Seems like a good idea. Yeah! A non agd-made upgrade that works well in theory

**BlackVCG** · 08-16-2002, 12:25 PM

Been there, done that.

It makes the trigger WAY too easy to short-stroke. There's no point in making it standard in the AIR valve because we'd have more complaints than we already do about the gun being easy to short stroke. It works well in the RT because of the recharge rate, but not in the AIR valve.

**magman007** · 08-16-2002, 02:03 PM

small gripe. PLease, donot call that pin, that little piece of metal under engineered. You have no clue how much goes into making one of those damn little pins. I believe it is a 6 step process. it is long and ardous(sp) There is so much engineering in that pin it isnt funny. Now, maybe not fully engineered, or sometihng like that, but it is in no way iunder engineered.

FreshmanBob · 08-16-2002, 05:29 PM

I guess it is a preference thing, I just like it a lot. Ok, so I didn't realize how engineered the on/off pin is in the mag, I just assumed that it was just a pin shaped to fit into the o ring properly an with a cut around it to make sure you put it in the right way but I guess not.

**Cristobal** · 08-17-2002, 01:16 AM

Originally posted by BlackVCG
Been there, done that.

It makes the trigger WAY too easy to short-stroke. There's no point in making it standard in the AIR valve because we'd have more complaints than we already do about the gun being easy to short stroke. It works well in the RT because of the recharge rate, but not in the AIR valve.

Since the on/off pin is responsible for resetting the trigger (in a non-emag, non auto-response frame) it would seem that this tendency to increase the chances of short-stroking results from a diminution of the return force on the trigger, as applied by the on/off pin.

My first though was that this is silly, because irrespective of a narrower lower section, the top of the pin where it seals is still the same area, and it will be the pressure acting on this area that imparts the force to the sear to return the trigger.

What I forgot was that the mag's dump chamber never empties completely. There is some residual pressure in the chamber and this pressure acting upwards on a pin with a narrower bottom section (ie the RT pin) must be enough to lessen the return force and increase short-stroking. With the RT, you have ~800 psi acting on the area where the pin seals, and this must be enough pressure to overcome the upward force on the pin from the chamber pressure. But in the AIR valve ~375 psi acting on the top of the pin must small enough where the chamber pressure has a noticeable effect in lessening return force.

**joeyjoe367** · 08-20-2002, 03:01 AM

instead of making the on/off easier to move by modifying it, why not some sort of on/off pin assist? it could be pneumatic, tuned by a small reg, or mechanical, ex a spring

...just trying to think outside of the box here.

**hitech** · 08-20-2002, 06:00 PM

I don't know if it is the same for the classic valve, but for the RT style valve the bolt latching on the sear is the most of the force in the trigger pull. Here is what Tom replied to an idea I had:

Originally posted by AGD
Yes your right it would lighten the on/off pin pressure but in the Emag with the RT style pin it is actually a smaller component of the trigger force than the sear latching on the bolt. We did think about doing that before.

Good idea though, keep thinking.

AGD

**Coaster** · 08-20-2002, 07:07 PM

if the air chamber volume was doubled then wouldn't it be able to run at a lower pressure? So the AIR's output could be set to ~200 (i am just cutting 400 in half because of the volume being twice as large as 68mag), and this would mean that you are only pushing on 200psi, rather than 400.

**athomas** · 08-21-2002, 12:10 PM

To Coaster:

A while ago this was actually discussed along with other methods to reduce sear pressure and bolt force on the ball.

The force on the sear by the bolt is more than just the psi in the chamber. It is the combination of the psi in the chamber (force on the bolt) minus the bolt spring force.
The resulting force is what is felt on the sear by the trigger.

If you reduced the pressure on the bolt by making the chamber pressure less, you would also have to make the bolt spring force less as well, or the chamber psi couldn't push the bolt forward against the bolt spring. The resultant force difference would still be felt in the trigger pull.

**Coaster** · 08-21-2002, 04:36 PM

i am not sure if this is correct or not but since the volume is doubled and the PSI is cut in half wouldn't the larger volume air chamber make up for the lower PSI(pushing the spring forward). There would definately be problems with this also, easier to shortstroke, slower, etc..

**athomas** · 08-21-2002, 08:08 PM

Originally posted by Coaster
i am not sure if this is correct or not but since the volume is doubled and the PSI is cut in half wouldn't the larger volume air chamber make up for the lower PSI(pushing the spring forward). There would definately be problems with this also, easier to shortstroke, slower, etc..

The larger volume would make up for the amount of air needed to propel the ball to 300 fps, but the force on the bolt stem would be less. If this force does not exceed the force of the bolt spring, then the bolt would not move forward when the sear is released. If the bolt doesn't move forward, then the mag doesn't fire.

**Butterfingers** · 08-21-2002, 09:45 PM

Or you can just throw a level 10 on there and have almost no force on the sear.

The problem with the classic valve is that now that the pressure is increased the on/off pin makes up a larger component of the retun force.

**The Creature** · 08-23-2002, 02:27 PM

Am i missing something, or didn't anyone actually suggest that the RT on/off assembly would work better in the classic level 7 automag/minimag valve?

**magnj** · 08-24-2002, 07:55 AM

we said that. OK so if we add volume then all wed need to do is get a weaker spring andd that would make it low preasure?

**athomas** · 08-25-2002, 01:32 PM

Originally posted by magnj
we said that. OK so if we add volume then all wed need to do is get a weaker spring andd that would make it low preasure?

What is it you want to achieve with respect to lower pressure?

The behind the ball pressure of the automag is only 60psi, which is one of the lover pressures on the market.

Using the level 10 gives the automag one of the lightest bolt forces on the market and the easiest on fragile paint.

**magnj** · 08-25-2002, 07:35 PM

i didnt know it was that low. I figured a lighter trigger but i dont know .

**Coaster** · 08-25-2002, 08:45 PM

yes, a lower pressure mag would have a lighter trigger pull. Pushing up the on/off pin would be twice as easy if it were lower pressure. Therefore, pulling the trigger would also be lighter.

FreshmanBob · 08-26-2002, 08:59 AM

You don't want it too light, right now I have my trigger set real short and light and it works great for me, but some people may short stroke it.

**magnj** · 08-26-2002, 09:49 AM

rite now my trigger is mad light and unbeleivabluy short. I mean the second the triggger moves like a lil bit it goes full auto lol. WIll a pt spacer make it legter or shorter rite now i have a 220 in i have the kit i dont know if i should go bigger i or smaller. I figure bigger is better cuz its a tighter fit and will have less distance to travel but im guessing,

**paintbattler** · 08-31-2002, 07:54 PM

AGD doesnt need to do that. they need to be original

**Person** · 08-31-2002, 09:00 PM

Answer to hard trigger problems....electronic grip frame. Hey i was just wondering an off topic question... wouldnt an electronic frame be better in a standard mag valve? We all know RTs have shootup but they can make 26 bps BUT the electronic frames are limited to 13bps....thus a standard AIR valve would be best for an electronic frame, am i right? I honestly doubt AGD can improve the AIR valve much at all and i doubt they plan to. Unless they start calling the RT valve AIR valve and make all mags come with intelliframes lvl X and the new AIR valve

**the electrician** · 09-06-2002, 10:16 AM

the on/off pin does not have as much to do with trigger feel as the sear holding the bolt back. look at the size of the pin. now look at the size of the bolts inner cylinder. the one that slips into the power tube. which one do you think will create more force?
I've come to the conclusion that if it were simple to improve an automag, AGD would have done it.
you want to improve the trigger, get a level 10.
I attached a cylinder to the sear, put a micro 3-way behind the trigger and fed it all with a cocker lpr reg. yes it is a bit extreme but it's fairly cheap, the trigger pull is about 8 oz @ 1mm and it shoots about as fast as the rev can feed it.
point being you have to do alot to improve the mag.

**The Creature** · 09-08-2002, 02:34 PM

its a mocker...half mag, half cocker. hmmm interesting, i would really love to see a picture of that

**the electrician** · 09-08-2002, 10:03 PM

it's basically a mag with a lpr reg stickin' out the front of the vert adapter underneath the barrel. the rest is internal. because of the cylinder doing the work the sear is either up or down, no short stroking, no half cycles. as long as you feed it, it won't chop paint. so it makes it harder to justify buying the level 10, but the added insurance would probly be nice when it comes down to crunch time and you got one chance to make a decent shot.

what I want to know is hasn't anybody felt any difference in trigger pull since they installed the level 10 on an RT or standard valve?

**hitech** · 09-09-2002, 03:03 PM

Originally posted by the electrician
what I want to know is hasn't anybody felt any difference in trigger pull since they installed the level 10 on an RT or standard valve?

Yes, it's lighter. However, I didn't find the 'mag trigger all that hard to begin with.

**The Creature** · 09-09-2002, 03:34 PM

the level 10 did improve the pull a little, but i have not tried an RT yet. and as for the mag trigger pull IMO it sucks. for a small person like me with little hands it is difficult to pull such a stiff trigger faster than 5-6 bps, stock frame, or 9 bps with the intelliframe. i am trying everything i can to lighten the pull cause every bit makes a difference.

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