ace improvements

**314159** · 08-15-2002, 03:50 PM

i wish i could email or pm this to you tom, but you have thoes options disabled. moderators, if you feel this is not sutable for a public forum, please delete it.

tom, i talked to you a little about an ace sensor that you would not have to adjust at the tech conference at the iao.

you could easily whip up something that would not require any adjustment of the sensitivity of the eye with a pot, or adjusting the delay that would enabeling fire after the threshold of the sensor was met. this could be done without any modification to the emag board, and be contained alone in the ace board. the key part is about $1 in quanities of 1000 (save probally about $.30 for ditching the pot and it's not so bad).

the key part is the picmicro 12f675, this is a 8 pin microcontroller with a built in oscillator, the only one with flash memory in 8 pins with analog inputs. the code between the low end picmicro microcontrollers is compatable so you could dump it in a one time programable part if the package type you want is not redily avalible.

here is the key, the microcontroller would measure the output from the detector half of the sensor (phototransistor/photoresistor....). off of the top of my head, i don't think that it would be unreasonable to take 10 or 20 measurements per millisecond. the microcontroller would enable the firing of the marker when the signal from the sensor stopped increasing (ball on bottom of the breach). there are other checks that you could have the microcontroller do to see if the ball is ready to fire.

this system would probally alow slightly faster detection than your current system. it could disable fire if a ball bounces up a little from jumping, diving into a bunker till that ball is seated again. it would take the calabration time away. it is inexpensive too.

you might be asking why i am talking to you about this, your sensor is the only one that would take advantage of this idea, i don't see myself using this idea in any of my own projects, so i figure, why not let agd use it to make a better paintball gun.

**Vegeta** · 08-15-2002, 10:03 PM

Very good work pi.

..and I had no idea that the picmcr12f675 was that cheap.... o.O

**314159** · 08-15-2002, 10:16 PM

the only member of the 8 pin pic family with analog to digital converters that is flash too.

just though of something that also benifit the emag trigger, if you monitor the output of the hall effect sensor in a similar maner, and send the signal to fire the marker whenever the signal from the hall effect sensor goes from steady/decreasing to increasing. you would have one sweet trigger that you would not have to fine tune.

**AGD** · 08-16-2002, 12:25 AM

314,

John Sosta in England already has a prototype of this on the field in beta testing. We went ahead with the current version for time reasons. You can expect it in the 2003 model.

Figure out something cheap that doesnt use light and I would be really interested. We looked into non-metalic prox sensors but they are very expensive.

AGD

**Redkey** · 08-16-2002, 01:56 AM

pssst....

ultrasonic sound waves... either transmitted or reflected.

**mag-nanamus** · 08-17-2002, 01:05 AM

I've tried them, they need too much area and sound is much slower than light. I'm wondering if mechanical sensors are the way to go.

**manike** · 08-17-2002, 05:04 PM

I was just about to post that John is already looking into this but Tom beat me to it.

It sounds like a great way to have an ace that works with any paint in any conditions amounts of sunlight etc.

To be honest the ACE on my gun is working beautifully but there's always room for improvement/advancement.

314, I think the e-magnum board may monitor the trigger that way or similarly, it certainly appears to be more sensitive to movement...

manike

**314159** · 08-19-2002, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by AGD
Figure out something cheap that doesnt use light and I would be really interested. We looked into non-metalic prox sensors but they are very expensive.

you take a heaven's gate member, shirink him down so that he will fit in the body. you monitor his vital signs to detect when he thinks the big comet is comming

j/k

now for the serious one, the first idea that i posted would not work how i would like with a warp feed breach. i suppose that in desire to accomidate the warp feed breach, you backed away from the break beam system..... under the area where the feed port module would go, have a source and a detector for the break beam system, can be relatively anywhere. then with your feed port modules, you could have fibre optic pieces that would match up with the source and detector, the other end of these fibre optic pieces would position the beam in the most advantageous spots in the breech for that type of feed. (ie. bottom for vertical feed, side for warp feed...)

and for marketing purposes, if you would use the lazer as the source for the break beam system. you could have a nice "warning, contains class_ lazer...." inscription on the side. ^_^

**bjjb99** · 08-19-2002, 01:56 PM

Originally posted by 314159

you take a heaven's gate member, shirink him down so that he will fit in the body. you monitor his vital signs to detect when he thinks the big comet is comming j/k

Wouldn't that be a one-shot detector, unless you had a clip-feed for shrunken heaven's gate memebers?

BJJB

**nerobro** · 08-19-2002, 08:17 PM

Ok, here's an off the wall idea....

Smoke detectors use a small chunk of americium to charge the air particles in a metal box.... when you put smoke (other particles) in the box, the charge of the box changes.

What about a "radioactive" ball sensor. though i'm not sure of this systems responce time. I"m just not sure of another good way of "charging" the air in the chamber. I'm sure a radioactive flake won't make people happy.

another more sane idea.....

Another thought is to go with the ultrasonic sensor... but during a discussion with pi I found out that they don't have the resolution that we want at such close ranges... Ultrasound would have issues with contamination. any paint and it's shot.

now what about imaging... cheaply...

Though you'd end up with a much higher current draw.. and a much more expensive setup.. a bright light on one side of the breach and 4-5 solar cells on the other side (or photoresistors, or phottransistors..) To measuere the actuall hight of the ball. sort of an imaging system with 4-5 pixels.

Now back to the EM spectrum... and charges..

with a small rf transmitter you could turn the chamber into a resonant cavity, and use changes in the wave pattern to judge weathter a ball is in there or not.. but I'm not sure about that systems resolution. RF has always seemed to be a lot of guesswork to me. (and I have a ham licence no less...)

I think the reciever would be a problem with the radio.. and the fact that the breach is a tiny/funny shaped place to try to contain radio waves... (this one seems more and more dream on as I think about it..)

Maybe it depends on the polarization of the transmitter.

Something in my head is sticking on field sensors. You've made some passing mention of "non metallic proximity" sensors... What light can you shine on that subject?

**nasprouse** · 08-19-2002, 08:47 PM

Tom,

If you are looking for nonlight activated ACE you should try the QPROX 110 series chip. It is a low cost proximity device. I have used it on several projects with great results. It is very simply to hookup, self adjusting, and costs less than $3.00.

Here is a link to their site:
http://www.qprox.com/products/touch.php

Neal

**AGD** · 08-20-2002, 10:22 PM

Nasprouse,

Those proxes, do they detect proximity or touch? It looks like they use them for flat pannel keyboards. Any info appreciated.

Thanks

AGD

**BlackVCG** · 08-21-2002, 12:07 AM

They're just high sensitivity touch sensors. Seems to me like just a different way to do a COPS system.

**nerobro** · 08-21-2002, 01:33 AM

here's a part number for a capacitive proximity sensor.. it's terriably big though. but a sensor such as this put in the breach of the gun would allow you to know a ball was 3mm above the breach floor.....

*edit: It appears that my search was part of a cookie on my machine, when 314159 went to see the part he saw something cached on his computer. I'll post a better link this evening*

**314159** · 08-21-2002, 08:37 AM

while having the sensor at the bottom of the breech is nice for vertical feed. i just think that having it in the bottom of the center of the breech has room for improvement for a warp feed breech.

**nerobro** · 08-21-2002, 10:20 AM

314159: did you check out the price of that capacitive sensor? EEEEEP...

I'm not sure how specific the capacitive sensors are to alignment with the axis of the sensor. they probally aren't that specific so a ball coming across sideways would be easily tuned for..

Also note, this sensor is more than an inch long...

**314159** · 08-21-2002, 10:37 AM

nerobro, that link is to a 15 A Hinge Roller Lever SPDT switch. =/

**314159** · 08-21-2002, 10:41 AM

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dk...804&Row=288000

http://www.digikey.com/scripts/us/dk...804&Row=288184

for normally open and normally closed. $111 for quanaty 1 is expensive.

**nasprouse** · 08-21-2002, 06:43 PM

AGD,

The Qprox chips can do touch or proximity. If fact some are use to detect fluid levels, paintball are fluid the last time I checked. Another advantage is that they don't work like traditional prox setups. They can work through/behind plastic etc. PM me if you want to talk offline.

Neal

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