Hmmm, Rotary syle bolt?

**ScatterPlot** · 11-29-2002, 01:57 AM

In paintball guns all the bolts i have seen are just ways to get the ball out of the feed tube and fired. This makes it go forward and backward, overcoming inertia. But what if you made a bolt based on rotary engines? It would be a circle with many pits in it to hold balls. When you pulled the trigger it would start spinning and putting balls in front of an air nozzle. When they passed in front of the nozzle, air would ome out and propel the balls. You ould load the balls by splitting the input into three streams and putting outputs onto the disc at three dfferent spots. Here's some drawings that might help me with my idea.

OK, they're not good at all. Its late, I just want a rough sketch. Well in the animation there should be more balls behind the first, the disc should be fully enclosing the ball, and when it fires you would have a nice seal. So anyway- does anyone think this is a good idea? Bad idea? Problems? Let me know.

**ScatterPlot** · 11-29-2002, 01:59 AM

Sorry about no animations/pics, but the gif thingy is kinda messed up right now. If you want them, tell me and ill try a little more in depth.

**toymyster** · 11-29-2002, 05:31 AM

Prsuming it would work, you would have the same problem rotary engines have: eficiency!! The design would be a gas hog and a half!!!

**Coaster** · 11-29-2002, 12:02 PM

yeah, show us some animations. Sounds like a neat idea.

**ScatterPlot** · 11-29-2002, 03:40 PM

Ill work on the animations a little later today, right now I have to go somewhere. Does anyone know of a good free gif animator? Thats whats holding me back. But anyway, where would the gas hoggishness come from? Would it be the fact that it was firing so much or just the design of the gun? If it was the design you could make it just the internals of an Impulse or something that doesnt use much gas. Of course we would need AGD to make a firing mechanism that could keep up, like a RT valve or something. RTs wouldnt work because they are designed to use a bolt, and a bolt would defeat the purpose of this idea. Wow, no one has really flamed my ideas (like usual!) I am amazed. Thanks and keep posting.

**Vegeta** · 11-29-2002, 09:46 PM

That is kind of how the SMG-60 and -68 worked, only there wasn't any rotation. Balls were put inside their own little shell like that of a gun, open in fornt and back. They were loaded into a clip, and into a spring fed magazine. The casings and PB's were fed into the open breech, and hte casing would seal the breech. A hammer would strike the valve, and the air would shoot hte paintball out, and hte casing would be ejected.

The hardest part would be sealing the breech and dumping the chamber of air at the same time, and also loading balls into this rotary design.

**diesel4mee** · 12-01-2002, 07:10 PM

my friendand i have been working on a similar diesign. we have the bolt vaule assem complete in cad. right now were are trying to figure out how to turn the bolt and the easy way to achive that.

**Redkey** · 12-02-2002, 02:42 PM

can you use a pneumatic ram that is linked to some kind of a saw tooth gear?

**diesel4mee** · 12-16-2002, 10:06 PM

we have a idea thanks for urs. and the wanker engine are effecent i dont no were u been 250 hp out of 1.3 l is a hell of a good ratio.

**Wat** · 12-19-2002, 04:28 AM

I think the problem of any rotary bolt system or any system that replaces the bolt/ram concept is the paint fit. Since nothing is physically pushing a ball into a breech, the fitting would have to be lose enough for gravity or air pressure to push the ball into place. Which doesn't lead to having good accuracy or efficiency. Plus, you'd probably want to build the bolt in different sizes.

**314159** · 12-19-2002, 01:09 PM

a loose rotary style breech will affect the accuracy the same as a loose breach.

i think that this would fit in the same accuracy range as all guns with a large breach.

**diesel4mee** · 12-19-2002, 04:53 PM

we already thought of that and there are going to be differnt breach size jsut like a freak but no inserts just new bolts.

**Wat** · 12-20-2002, 04:03 AM

You're going to have a loose bolt area that the ball can easily drop into and then a correctly size, snug barrel breach. Then air is going to blast the ball from the loose bolt into the tight barrel. In other guns you have a bolt pushing the ball into the breech, then air firing the ball.

Here it sounds like you'd have to use air to both push the ball into a tighter bore barrel and then propel it further. At best i think it would be bad efficiency, at worst paint breaks.

**Orange Crush** · 12-22-2002, 11:41 AM

There was already a gun similar to this once called the phoenix. It used a rotary type bolt. The bolt was a plastic cylinder with a hold drilled through it for the ball. The round side was aligned with the vertical axis of the gun. The hole would be facing up and a ball would drop in, when you pulled the trigger the cylinder would rotate forward, aligning the hole with the barrel and the valve would open and fire the ball, then it would rotate back. The design had a couple of advantages..double feed was impossible, and there was no blowby into the feed tube. Don't know what happened to it though....

Did a quick search and found this page which is interesting...has almost all patents applied for for paintball.

http://airsoldier.com/~haveblue/tech/patents/

Here is the Phoenix's patent, but you have to be a member to look at the diagrams.

http://www.delphion.com/details?pn=US05494024__

**flanders** · 12-23-2002, 02:28 AM

it's impracticle to much crap can go wrong

so many verianbles

size of the weel
alot of extra stuff that can brake

**hagan** · 01-09-2003, 02:43 AM

Originally posted by toymyster
Prsuming it would work, you would have the same problem rotary engines have: eficiency!! The design would be a gas hog and a half!!!

how can anyone say that a 2.3 lt encine making 255 hp has efficincy

come ppl dont just talk out ur @ss

the rotary engine give you the most for the least.

ignorance kills

**Orange Crush** · 01-09-2003, 03:25 PM

Even more impressive is the rotary in the new RX-8. 1.8 liters and ~250hp....that's pretty impressive...rotaries have always been efficient, just not very reliable...

**flanders** · 01-09-2003, 11:18 PM

reliable as an engine or not

as a piantball design it's very impracticle except for stock class it could be kinda cool. may be

**Thorpydo** · 01-10-2003, 12:01 AM

Dudes,

I see a rotary type bolt in a paintball gun having lots of advantages over the norm thats out right now.

First off, It's going to be much easier to rotate this bolt as opposed to one that moves back and forth. As long as there wasn't too much friction between the body and bolt, seems to me you could run the pressure turning the bolt verylow.

After the bolt has rotated in place, the gas propelling the ball out the barrel isn't also going to push the bolt backward, causeing blowback, like it does in guns today.

It could be pretty darn compact, depending on how everything works.

One other MAJOR advantage, would be, if you had a big enough bolt, you could have 2 slots for the balls to feed. While one ball is shooting, the other is loading simitanously. 18 BPS on that HALO? Couldn't this sucker feed 36? That is of course, if the bolt could cycle that fast. (I think my reasoning there is correct)

The marker would also have a different kind of kick. I would think much less than other guns, but I'm not really sure on this one. Low pressure, and you could also have a light bolt, since you dont need the extra weight to help hit open a valve.

Integrating a spool valve into the bolt would be real nifty, but I think it would be hard to get it to work right with the seals.

I could see sealing the bolt to be a bit of a problem. And also machining the gun could be tough. You would have several ways of spinning the bolt. Other then that, I don't see why the gun wouldn't work well.

P.S. Is it just me, or are some of these gun manufactors not too bright? I mean we've got what? 5 copies of the angel/timmy/impulse/viking/tribal style gun? Geeze.

**diesel4mee** · 01-11-2003, 12:29 AM

well in are gun there are 8 slots. so one being feed one feed one fireing. the bolt pressure doent matter cause if u pinch it stay pinched the bolt only move one way. that why we are going to elips the top part to funnel it in to the bolt. plus the part of turning htebolt the exact degrees in a shot fast burst is difficult.

**ME262** · 01-11-2003, 02:17 AM

Thorpydo, have you been talking with andy? (warpedmephisto)

and no the rotating bolt is no problem to machine

but thats a no on the dual feeding, think the thing has to rotate 90 deg.

and is 6" compact enough

**Thorpydo** · 01-11-2003, 05:51 PM

Rich,

Yeah, I got warpedmophisto on my buddy list. We talk some. Why?

My dad thought up the rotary design; Didn't get the idea from online or someother spot. He really thinks that it would work well.

**ME262** · 01-11-2003, 07:07 PM

well, just everything you stated is somthing we're working on

for about a year now its been bouncing around in the shop here. finally close to finishing the bolt system

**Thorpydo** · 01-11-2003, 09:46 PM

Really,

Don't believe I talked with him about any details of the gun... Just that he was in the proccess of making one.

The design has alot of potential. Alot! Would be really nifty if you got it working with a spool valve.

I would certantly be a fan =)

Oh BTW, I don't see the advantage of having any more slots than two. Seems like having 8 would just make it bigger. Anyone got any ideas?

**diesel4mee** · 01-11-2003, 11:32 PM

are bolt is 3 inches. the 8 slots are just so we have a fast cycle rate.

**Thorpydo** · 01-12-2003, 01:30 AM

3 inch diameter? Thats pretty big..

I still don't see anything over 2 slots effect ROF or cycle speed, unless your just referring to haveing more balls sorted at one time.

**Thorpydo** · 01-12-2003, 01:32 AM

After I posted that, I think I saw the light.

Are you talking about the distance the bolt has to spin?

**diesel4mee** · 01-12-2003, 06:49 PM

yes

**akagotcha** · 01-15-2003, 07:41 PM

ive been here from time to time looking at this post and have been thinking what would stop this thing from being a blender. there would have to alot of timing and such or a really durable parts. think you have to get a ball to drop into the slot have the rotary bolt spin, propel the ball forward and have the bolt stop in fractions of a second. another question i have that has been bothering me under rapid fire what would prevent the gun from chopping all of your paint.

alright time for the improvement thoughts as for the back spin you could use a barel system which would be the kinda oposet of the flatline to get rid of the back spin

just me two sence

keith

**diesel4mee** · 01-15-2003, 09:15 PM

hey we have are gun as and electro. so the time is no problem. the problem with the paint being feed and shot. there are 8 chambers. 5 are dead in the cycle phase. let look at this like a clock. one is at 12 the one feeding of jsut been feed. second bettwen 1 and 2 already feed not at fire postion. 3 being at 3 the fireig position. so when u fire the gun fire the ball at 3 then rotates 45*. move each slot or chamber respectivly. we have a anti chop funtine in the making if there need to be one but with two seperte chamber fire cycle is the same as loading so there should be no problems.

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Hmmm, Rotary syle bolt?

good idea

hmm

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