Chris Lasoya banned from Pan-Am

**WARPED1** · 03-13-2003, 02:31 PM

I met Lasoya off field at the '01 Cup, he was a pompus doofus, I have no on field experiences worth noting however.

**yeahthatsme** · 03-13-2003, 02:45 PM

Originally posted by manike
Rumours and embellishments make me sick. Just because something gets printed all of a sudden it's fact?

Who are you guys to slate Chris just on the basis of one other person's views? Maybe you should get both sides of the story before preaching about it. Next time I see Chris I'll get his side. Notice how the person writing that piece is affiliated with the guy that got shot. So it's not exactly an unbiased representative giving a report now is it?

When this story first broke it was 5 hits, and the guy was ok but felt concussed (I do after just one head hit!) and so went to get checked. Chris was apparently immediately sorry and trying to help the guy.

Now I agree 5 hits is way too much, and I am by no means condoning that, but there may be other circumstances and things we don't know, and Chris is the fastest person on the trigger that I have EVER seen. In the heat of a game, with the adrenalin flowing and with a fast finger I've seen lots of people pull 5-6 shots in a bunkering move, especially if the person they are shooting at shoots back or swings to fire.

I don't know the facts for sure, but nor do you guys. You just seem to be on a witch hunt

Chris is a friend of mine, he can get het up on the field and plays on the edge, but he is also a nice guy who is a phenomenal ambassador for the sport for kids and people that take the time to want to talk to him (and don't just hate him based upon what they have read or 'heard' . When you've seen him give signatures and equipment to young kids, and take the time to talk to old couples explaining what paintball is about and what it means to be a paintballer, you will appreciate the whole person that is Chris Lasoya.

He gives a huge amount back. Yes he screws up now and then, but I for one DO NOT think paintball would be a better place without him.

if hes ok by manike, hes ok bye me.

but as shartley said, no matter how nice somebody is, its no excuse for breaking the rules. i guess i'll have to meet him before i pass a final judgement..maybe he'll be at one of the nppl/psp chicago events...

**ShooterJM** · 03-13-2003, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Wc Keep
shooter jm what do you mean about exageration etc etc etc?

PM'd ya.

**FalconGuy016** · 03-13-2003, 03:39 PM

and this is the 6 million dollar man... the most sponsored paintball player ever

**Crazy** · 03-13-2003, 04:05 PM

woopty doo, he can't play pan am.. what a loss, no more stock class or limited paint =(

**irbodden** · 03-13-2003, 05:23 PM

What a loser. He is

**dmonahan** · 03-13-2003, 06:15 PM

Crazy,

There are still both a stock class and a limited paint class in Pan-Am. In fact the stock class had been improved quit a bit this year. And the Young gun, 3 and 5 man are still limited paint. The only real change this year is the 10 man is now 7 and it is unlimited paint.

**hitmanng** · 03-13-2003, 09:15 PM

I have never met Chris but have heard good and bad things. The bigger issue is that this should mean to all of us in paintball. I am sure this came up again due to the APG article recently published. We need to remember a few things.
1. Originally the manufacturers were going to limit the bps rate of markers to 13/sec to avoid these issues.
2. The question of what is a trigger pull again comes up. Did chris have control of his marker? I can tell you when I am bouncing a short trigger it is insane the paint I shoot and I am not good at it, let alone Chris.
3. Did Chris actually break any rules, and what were the penalties? I do not know him but I do know Simon and from what he is saying Chris is not a mean spirited person at heart. Was he really trying to give the guy a concussion? I doubt it, but I haven't seen any apologies printed either. He should have been punished by the rules in place at the game and rules should be refined in the area of overshooting. We need to have control of our markers and I think many people no longer do.
4. Chris should just be glad noone has pressed charges for assult. It would be justifiable if the story is true. It would also be the worst thing that could ever happen to paintball.
The just of it is we all need to be aware of what is happening in paintball. As the rate of fire increases so do the dangers. Mostly because it becomes easier for someone with little experiance to shoot faster and faster.
Tournement paintball needs to remember it is a game and there is an image being created of people cheating, wiping, shooting from off field, sideline coaching, etc.
Let's make sure that this remains a game we want our children to play.
Gordon

**DyNasTy** · 03-13-2003, 09:32 PM

ok my views on the issue itself adn its replys.

Manike - True the article written was biased, but you being a "friend" of Chris doesnt make you just a little bit biased??

To the rest, Yes everyone makes mistakes, and with the adrenaline pumping its easy to over shoot. I mean if it means winning, your going to fire more than 1 shot to make sure your opponent is out of the game. But from what I read it was 12 shots, and In a bunker move 12 shots is a long time to pull off even for the fastest trigger. 6 at most would have been acceptable in my view.

I do not hate Chris Lasoya, or have I lost any respect for the man, he is a great paintball player, but needs to learn that just because he is pro, or to any pro, that they shoudlnt get over confident, and do things such as this, or what Salm did.

I mean thier are other players in the world, who are just as good if not better that could take thier spot on the team. They arent different from any other paintballer..

**NastyPTA** · 03-13-2003, 10:25 PM

ok guys, i know i'm new here and unknown amongst all of you, but in "our" sport we are having serious issues with credibility, i'm sure these are not novel happenings to all of us, but when other major sports with whom there are sponsorships involved, especially on an individual basis, i.e. NASCAR, began searching for their credibility and perception as a major sport for the masses, they began by "cleaning" up the image of their sport...see: major penalties for rules infractions and even for athlete misconduct away from the playing of the sport.......i am not here to argue whether chris was right wrong or otherwise....just that if we truly want our sport accepted for what it is, there has to be accountability for our actions, all of us, each on our own as well as teams, and a sport as a whole

**RTMAGBOY13** · 03-13-2003, 10:38 PM

ok why would u bunker someone and shoot them in the head 12 times! there is no excuse for that no matter what
1. you shouldnt even really be shooting people in the head he coulda shot him in the back or arm or something
2. 12 TIMES holy balls i would think like 2-3 is enough

**Little Matt** · 03-13-2003, 11:37 PM

Frist I would like to ask, how do we know it was exactly 12 hits. I mean if he was shooting that fast how can you count them and if they busted or bouced how can you count those either. IF the guy got knocked out cold then I'm sure he doesn't remmber being hit, and if he does I'm sure he wasn't sitting there counting all the shots. If he was counting he had enuff time to jump out of the way or atleast do somethig.

At the Las Vegas Pan Am finals. I got shot in the back side of my neck one day and the next day had it happen again, which made me dizzy and sick to my stomach. But I didn't have to get shot 12 times in that spot for it to happen.

1 or 2 balls in a certain spot can do the same thing that these supposed 12 did.

So maybe the better question is, was this guy wearing proper protection while playing. Obviously paintball masks do not cover the top of your head but hats and beanies do, and can provide alittle protect to prevent paintballs from hitting tender parts of the head that can cuase these types of injuries.

Obviously things are going to happen, and when you play anytype of sport that involves anytype of contact wether its a person or a object there is a chance of injury.

I'm not trying to defend chris if he did over shoot but the "facts" are kinda flimsey and in my opinion exagerated.

Just my 2 cents...

**goat** · 03-13-2003, 11:40 PM

Personally I feel that things happen on the field so fast that even with a slower marker it is pretty easy to overshoot someone, The numbers that are being thrown around so far range from 5 to 12.....5 I can see (hell I have done it and not realized it until I was leaving the field and saw the guy in the staging area...he was a little P.O.ed).. 12 is a little much, BUT that's the game of Speedball..fast paced, lots of paint in the air, and sometimes close quarters,
In my opinion...You gotta Pay To Play, I have taken my fair share of lumps and I accept it, Hell I got bunkered from behind (long story) and took three shots to my AHHEMM buddies, No greif after..I left it on the field, wish I could have left the pain on the field.

Besides, Who's to say that all of those shots came from Lasoya? I'm sure he had teamates backing him up and probably moving down the opposite tape line.
Goat

**DyNasTy** · 03-14-2003, 01:15 AM

"Frist I would like to ask, how do we know it was exactly 12 hits. I mean if he was shooting that fast how can you count them and if they busted or bouced how can you count those either. IF the guy got knocked out cold then I'm sure he doesn't remmber being hit, and if he does I'm sure he wasn't sitting there counting all the shots. If he was counting he had enuff time to jump out of the way or atleast do somethig.

At the Las Vegas Pan Am finals. I got shot in the back side of my neck one day and the next day had it happen again, which made me dizzy and sick to my stomach. But I didn't have to get shot 12 times in that spot for it to happen.

1 or 2 balls in a certain spot can do the same thing that these supposed 12 did.

So maybe the better question is, was this guy wearing proper protection while playing. Obviously paintball masks do not cover the top of your head but hats and beanies do, and can provide alittle protect to prevent paintballs from hitting tender parts of the head that can cuase these types of injuries.

Obviously things are going to happen, and when you play anytype of sport that involves anytype of contact wether its a person or a object there is a chance of injury.

I'm not trying to defend chris if he did over shoot but the "facts" are kinda flimsey and in my opinion exagerated."

To answer some of your questions asked in ur post:
1. They may have been able to count the 12 hits by video, or by a reff hearing the marker fire or what not.
2. What Lasoya did was called "punishment bunkering" he intentionally aimed for the head, the man bunkered wasnt knocked out, he just recieved a cuncusion and was sent to hte hospital to get it checked out.
3. You were shot in the side of the neck one day, then the other. True it would sting, but to most of us that is just normal paintball. Imagine 5-12 shots POINT BLANK, there is quiet a huge difference, than 1 ball from 10 feet away.
4. Yes, this is the year 2004, not 1990's, All fields require the proper protection to be played at. A sockhat isnt a required part or necassary part to play paintball. True it provides protection, but how often do u get shot that many times on the top of the head.
5. True all sports involve the risk of injury, but ones like this can and should be avoided. I mean if it was only 5-6 shots this whole thing is about nothing. But if it was the supposted 12, or even 8-9 that is punishment bunkering, onces u see the first ball goes, if u want to continue firing to make sure it did break for sure, aim lower if u c it is at his heads level. I mean its pretty obvious its not an accident after the first few shots.

**TheBigRaguPB4L** · 03-14-2003, 01:34 AM

Originally posted by DyNasTy
3. You were shot in the side of the neck one day, then the other. True it would sting, but to most of us that is just normal paintball. Imagine 5-12 shots POINT BLANK, there is quiet a huge difference, than 1 ball from 10 feet away.

Unless i'm picturing wrong(i think i am but this is the way it sounds), from the description that everyone is saying, he turned the bunker, saw him, ran up next to him putting the barrel to his head, then pulled the trigger 12 times. No, sorry but not happening. Maybe he was very close, but "POINT BLANK" is up against the person and it just did not happen that way.

Originally posted by DyNasTy
Yes, this is the year 2004

Isn't it 2003? Did i sleep a year away and miss it?

People are talking about adrenaline and "It's easy to get excited". If you were the one that got knocked out, would you be so easily forgiving? Somehow, I don't think so. I know if my one of my friends did it, i'd give him a nice jab to the jaw. Then i could forgive him.

Maybe it is all over exagerated. Something major had to have happened. Even though it probably won't be enforced, they did ban him. For them to take measures like that, he must have done something wrong.

So how about the trigger bounce. That means he cheated. He deliberately set up his gun that broke rules of the tournament. Especially something like trigger bounce because that's one of the newer fads that they're hyping about because of the insane ROF you can achieve with it.

I've never met him or seen him or his team play. Everything i know about this incident is all pretty much heresay. But really though, is it that farfetched? I don't think so. I can't imagine "proffessional" paintball ever growing up.

**Tyger** · 03-14-2003, 03:35 AM

Originally posted by DyNasTy

2. What Lasoya did was called "punishment bunkering" he intentionally aimed for the head, the man bunkered wasnt knocked out, he just recieved a cuncusion and was sent to hte hospital to get it checked out.

We've been talking about this over on the p8ntballer.com board too. And I have a few ideas to discourage the "Bonus Ball"

First : Define it. A "Bonus Ball" can be defined as a paintball fired at an eliminated player with malicious intent. Under this definition, a player doing a run-through and bunkering with three shots is "ok". However, stopping at the position and shooting 12 is not "ok". Shooting players who are obviously eliminated is malicious as well. A player who is elimiated and walks through a firefight is not being shot at with malicious intent, however a player who is out of bounds and walking back to his deadbox and gets torched, that IS malicious intent.

You can also state that anything over "X" marks on a person is overshooting, but the problem is we playa team sport. And if you have 5 guys shooting at YOU, and they each hit you one time, that's 5 hits.

Second : Make it a written infraction. 1 for 1, no questions asked. If you are torchign dead guys, you get pulled, and so does a teammate. If you're feeling particularly nasty, make the rule so that for each additional splat mark on the player, another player gets pulled. So if you torcha guy, and put 10 marks on a dead guy, your whole team is pulled and then some the next game.

Third : The refs need to enforce the rule. Instead of saying "it's part of the game" or "you have to accept that", pull guys for overshooting. Do it EARLY in the comp, and get the word out that it will NOT be tolerated.

Fourth : Make a universally accepted signal for elimiated player that just about EVERYONE can do. Gun in the air is impractical, so let's go back to the Knoxville model. Player puts his off hand (Palm down) on top of his head, and walks away. Any player that does this action, or similar action, is IMMEDIATELY considered an elimiated player. (This also gets rid of the dead man's walk, BTW...) ANY Shooting of a player signaling his elimiation in such a way constitues a "Bonus ball" rule. Conversely, any player using the "Dead" signal and continuing play is penalised, as the rules already provide.

It's my take, anyhow.

-Tyger

**manike** · 03-14-2003, 03:48 AM

OK Guys, here is Chris's side of it...

I am sorry that all of you feel this way about the incident but there are always 2 sides to every story. It did not happen this way at all. In fact the person who wrote this was not even at the event. All of his information is second hand from people who were involved. Of course he did not contact me for my side of the story. This person and I have a long history of hate between us so I guess that you people can figure that out. Anyway I had only shot the person in the goggles 1 time and he started to shot back at me so I in turn shot him back 3 times. 1 hit him in the forehead and I am sure that it hurt. I did say sorry to him and he even said that he was ok so I think the story is a little bit blown out of reason.

Peace

Oh and apparently it is true that the guy who wrote the article wasn't there...

Then the guy who was on Wayde's team has said

it is true what he said about the author of the article, he wasnt there. looking back on the article, he should have put that in there. also the author and lasoya havent been the best of friends since i have known them.
when you said you were sorry to him i guess he was ok, but he had migrane headaches every night for about 2 weeks after that. he has been fine since then.
i guess what i comes down to is we werent ready to go against pro style mugging. i just hope it doesnt happen to another player.

Dynasty yes of course I am biased, I have known Chris a long time and know him fairly well. I just like to make sure I know both sides of the story before crucifying someone. There are too many 'haters' on the net. It sounds very different from the other side now, and even the guy who was posting and on the same team as Wayde seems to have backed down.

The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

hhmmm makes you wonder...

**Mighty Mike** · 03-14-2003, 04:18 AM

Ok...i've got 2 questions:

1) One shot to the head vs. twelve shots to the head. Which story is true??

2) If the incident did go down the way Chris explained, then why was he banned from the Pan Ams??

**manike** · 03-14-2003, 04:32 AM

Mike if what Chris says is true it would have been 4 shots to the guy's head. 1 when he bunkered him and then 3 after the guy shot back. (that does sound like Chris

playing it fair till someone is an idiot and then Chris goes over the top).

As for why Chris was banned from the Pan Am, I do not know but I can hazard a guess...

Originally posted by manike
The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

And the other guy did take 3 hits to the head after he was already out and Chris new it. He took them because he was apparently playing on and shooting back after he was eliminated...

now it's still wrong for Chris to have done that, but it's unfortunately became almost the norm in tournaments because of all the cheating and playing on.

If the guy had just taken the first single hit and not shot back it wouldn't have happened...

Apparently (not sure how true this is) earlier in the day Chris had bunkered someone out and the guy then charged him in a fit. Chris at that time shot him in the lense to stop him running at him. (Chris is only a slight guy, well compared to me anyway

)

So many people want to hate Chris and believe all the absolute crap rumours that fly around. It can't be easy to deal with that and all the wannabe's who think it's true and go out of their way to get at him.

It's a real shame that Pro paintball has come to this, where cheating is so common that people have come up with vigilante methods to punish the cheats. That's also why bonus balling (an aweful practice) is also so common at the top levels in USA play.

You will find over in Europe at top events much less head bunkering and bonus balling and I believe that is because we have better judges and if people cheat, or shoot the guy bunkering them they get penalised by the judges and so the other players don't feel the need to take it into their own hands.

**50 cal** · 03-14-2003, 08:29 AM

And some industry people wonder why p-ball can't break into the mainstream sports world!
Some industry peeps are the ones that try to hide this behavior. I've seen it at waaay too many big tourneys, cry like a baby enough and you will get your way with the Ultimates (cough)Bill Cookston(cough) and tourney directors and sponsors.
If the rec players, and there are enough of us, would vote with our wallets against sponsors, you would see a change in some of ways outlandish behaviour is tolerated.

Just one guys opinion.

**ogre55** · 03-14-2003, 09:34 AM

First of, thank you Mr. Lasoya for giving us, and I assume the rest of the paintball community your side of the story. I admit that I made a few assumptions regarding the incident, not the least of which is the fact the when someone writes a story for a journalistic purpose that they were there to witness the event. Considering that both the bunkerer and the bunkered (or a member of his team) concur about both the facts and that the writer was not a witness, they definately have changed my mind about the incident.

And thank you Manike for clearing up the rumor.

Ogre

**cphilip** · 03-14-2003, 09:46 AM

I am inclined to believe Chris on the absence of any further proof and since the accusation was put forth by someone that wasn't even there. If thats the case then we have one side of the story. And the other side is more hear say than his is. Cause I am willing to accept Simons account that he spoke directly to Chris so... Well at this point it does sound a bit exagerated from the other side. Thats not too uncommon. And yea if someone turns on you after being shot he is prolly gonna get a few back from me too! Sorry but I am assuming he doesn't know yet he is out and I gonna make sure he knows then!

**ShooterJM** · 03-14-2003, 10:10 AM

Originally posted by manike
The guy who wrote the article and Chris have always been at each other, that puts a huge bias on the article.

Also the guy who wrote the article and got Chris banned has a huge influence on paintball in the area...

hhmmm makes you wonder...

Wooohoooo! Truth comes out and LaSoya is vindicated. In my book anyway.

**manike** · 03-14-2003, 11:12 AM

One thing I want to make clear is that I didn't speak directly to Chris, but I will do next time I see him, Chris actually posted that on another forum where this was being discussed also.

One thing I will say, Chris does get into some situations, but no way near the number that people accuse him of, and there is usually mitigating circumstances and stuff behind it that casually gets forgotten when people want to rag on him.

He is a figure at the top of our sport, and that makes him a target (like what I did there? nice pun huh?

) for many. I don't think many people could take a lot of the unfounded aggro he does and come out of it so well.

Above everything he is a paintballer. And a good one.

**SlartyBartFast** · 03-14-2003, 11:42 AM

IMO, Chris' own account of the incident warrants a ban from play.

At no time should you deliberatly aim at someone's head (unless it's the only thing they're exposing from behind a bunker). There is absolutely reason to test the extreme limits (multiple close range hits) of the most important safety equipment we use(goggles).

While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

**Crazy** · 03-14-2003, 11:50 AM

some people comlain too much...

**manike** · 03-14-2003, 12:09 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
IMO, Chris' own account of the incident warrants a ban from play.

At no time should you deliberatly aim at someone's head (unless it's the only thing they're exposing from behind a bunker).

While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

That's just unrealistic and certainly not outside the current rules so why should it be a banning offence?

Since head shots are allowed within the rules if people are worried or concerned about the results of taking headshots at close range they should wear better protective gear.

I know people that wear helmets to play because of that concern. It's their choice.

It's an individuals responsibility to protect themselves from what is legal play. Not the other person who may shoot them in a location they haven't adequatley protected...

That's why I wear a cup. Or maybe I should make a rule you can't shoot me in the groin?

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
There is absolutely reason to test the extreme limits (multiple close range hits) of the most important safety equipment we use(goggles).

It has been done. They can take it. Although you should change the lenses after being shot at close range in the goggles... do you?

**ShooterJM** · 03-14-2003, 12:15 PM

Originally posted by SlartyBartFast
While I still wouldn't agree with the behaviour, and would still think of it as punishable, the shots should have been aimed at the body.

I disagree. What's interesting is that I was warned about overshooting when I played at this dude's field. I went to bunker a guy and put three shots into his chest they all bounced. He swung to fire on me so I just kept shooting until I saw one break. Ended up being the 9th or 10th shot. I was told to go for the marker or goggles so there'd be less pain and bounces.

**luke** · 03-14-2003, 02:00 PM

If Chris deserves to be banned, what about Wayde? He instigated the whole mess. If ANYTHING both Wayde and Chris should have been penalized for unsportsman like conduct FOR THAT GAME. To ban either one of them for the infraction is absurd.

**luke** · 03-14-2003, 02:07 PM

Originally posted by manike
Since head shots are allowed within the rules

To add to this statement, I'm fairly certain there isn't a over shooting rule either.

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