Hacking the E-mag?

[AGD]

Humm, well I see the gremlins have creeped into the code and are ready to make my life complicated.

Have Blue, if the code gets out everyone will be messing with it and the first thing they will do is shorten the solenoid on time to greatly extend their battery life. We do 30 ms (we must have changed it somewhere down the line) the hyperframe does 6 ms. If you do that you will chew up bolts, I have to replace them for free, the gun gets a bad rep, I ***** about the code changes, guys say mine is working fine your programers suck, we refuse to warrantee, EVERYONE is pissed off.

The industry is right on the edge of making ALL electronic guns NON PROGRAMABLE because of hacked code. In fact they all agreed to start doing it Jan 1 but WDP is having second thoughts. Non programable guns means every time you want to update your software you have to buy another WHOLE BOARD. Good for me I make more money, bad for you but that's because cheaters affect everyone.

Have Blue, if you really want to do this why don't we put you officially on the AGD software development team. You can cook up cool stuff and we can distribute it as AGD certified software. You can't do crazy full auto and the like. We can trade development time for product etc.

The next batch of boards will have the new chip with more memory. If the no programing comes through it might not be necessary. If WDP sues over patent infringement there might not be any displays what so ever.

Where the heck did you find colored displays? WE WANT "EM!

AGD

ps any news on the camera?

[jeffremiller]

This is actually the type of dialogs I had hoped to spark. I'd love to see cool features and such added to the Emag.

Hopefully there will be some way for me to help as well. My programming is on it's way and I'm looking at mostly cosmetic changes and such.

Even if WDP sues over displays, will they sue everyone? I see way to many custom mods out there with displays. The DV8, and others.

Also, if the industry goes to non-programmable devices, it seems like that opens the market to third party people to make things like the walord available for the Emag. If AGD were to develop a "AGD certified Software Partner program, you could insure that the mods wouldn't destroy your hardware and you could then void the warranties on any guns equipped with non-certified software loads or boards.

I'm just trying to find some common ground here between what I as a owner would like and the needs and constrains of AGD.

J_

[jeffremiller]

That's my feeling exactly Muzikman. Don't screw it up but add some coolness.

That's why the BASIC stamps were the perfect approach. First thing that a tech could tell the customer is to remove the stamp...thus eliminating the prospect of inteference. That coupled with some form of AGD software certification program to protect against errant dwell timing should address most issues.

As far as the blue displays.... I'm trying to locate a vendor. Haven't found one yet but there has to be someone making them

J_

[Sledgehammer]

Blue LEDs are expensive, that's probably why noone makes displays of them...
How about a display using clear LEDs? AGD could put filters in all different colors in front of one of them...

[Have Blue]

All right, I'll refrain from posting the code, then. Sorry to those who wanted to see it, but Tom's points are entirely valid.

And don't get me started on the industry trying to get rid of programmable boards - it won't make cheating go away, and is just a poor idea in general. Cheaters will just desolder OTP chips and resolder their own 'tweaked' chips. What do you do when you discover a bug in program 2.73, and you have 1000 2.73 boards on the shelf with OTP micros? Flash micros are beautiful, as they allow the manufacturer to keep a pile of boards on the shelf and then program them right before shipping. That way guns always ship with the latest program, and the manufacturer doesn't get socked with unusable inventory when they update their software. Plus, I would think that flash upgrades would be a good thing for tourneys - to ensure that nobody is using ceater chips, officials could flash everyone's gun with an approved semi-only program before the event. I'll stop here, as I could rant all day on the subject...

But anyhow, I'd be delighted to help out with the official code, and I'd love to see the hardware specs for the new boards. I hope that at some point the Basic Stamp (or other such system) can be added back in, as it really is the best way to allow for end-user customization while still ensuring that the gun's basic operation will not be compromised. Drop me a line, as I'd be interested in knowing more about what's used as a development environment for the E-Mag (some sort of C compiler I would presume, unless someone really loves assembly).

Blue LED displays just aren't available - you've got yellow, orange, green and 2 shades of red to choose from. Tom, I'll mail you with a few sources for them.

As for the camera, it's certainly available. The trick is just arranging to take a day off of work to bring it down - I'll see if I can possibly do it next week, as my schedule should be freed up a hair then. I'll see if I can send you a copy of the manual beforehand - it's pretty short and covers some of the features that you may find useful such as the trigger inputs (you can hook up a contact closure or TTL level signal to act as a trigger).

[Have Blue]

The DV8 displays... Defiance hasn't said where he gets them from, as I know he scoured for quite a while to find them. However, I may have found a match for them - still need to investigate further, though.

By a white LCD, do you mean the use of a white backlight?

Yes, blue, violet or white LED displays would be cool, but you have to keep in mind that these colors are relatively recent developments, and they still suck a lot of power. Heck, the stock E-Mag display has a power dissipation of up to 2.4 watts using high efficiency red LEDs! Additionally, a blue LED display would be extremely expensive with current process technology.

[Sledgehammer]

I got a question (I don't have my Emag <b>yet</b>):
Is the LED display a one piece unit or is it actually two 4-digit displays?

[jeffremiller]

It's a single unit.

J_

[Sledgehammer]

Thanks.

Too bad, I could have gotten 4-digit units for pretty cheap... Oh well

[Have Blue]

Nothing new to report, though I'll see if I can post the pinouts for the Atmal micro later on tonight. I wasn't able to make it to the shop, so checking on the buttons will have to wait 'til Wednesday.

[AGD]

Guys,

I haven't forgotten about this but we are swamped with new product stuff. I am monitoring the post though.

AGD

[Have Blue]

<TABLE BORDER=1>

<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>E-Mag reverse engineering</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Atmel AT90S2313-4SC</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Pin</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Name</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Connection</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="1" SDNUM="1033;">1</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>RESET</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 1</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="2" SDNUM="1033;">2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(RXD) PD0</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Stamp pin 7</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="3" SDNUM="1033;">3</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(TXD) PD1</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Stamp pin 8</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="4" SDNUM="1033;">4</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>XTAL2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="5" SDNUM="1033;">5</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>XTAL1</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="6" SDNUM="1033;">6</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(INT0) PD2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Trigger input; stamp pin 9</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="7" SDNUM="1033;">7</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(INT1) PD3</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>To MOSFET U3 (solenoid)</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="8" SDNUM="1033;">8</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(T0) PD4</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Switch PB2, stamp pin 10</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="9" SDNUM="1033;">9</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>(T1) PD5</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Switch PB1, stamp pin 11</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="10" SDNUM="1033;">10</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>GND</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="11" SDNUM="1033;">11</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PD6 (ICP)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>HCMS CE</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="12" SDNUM="1033;">12</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB0 (AIN0)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="13" SDNUM="1033;">13</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB1 (AIN1)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="14" SDNUM="1033;">14</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>HCMS clock</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="15" SDNUM="1033;">15</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB3 (OC1)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>HCMS data in</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="16" SDNUM="1033;">16</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB4</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>HCMS RS</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="17" SDNUM="1033;">17</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB5 (MOSI)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 4</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="18" SDNUM="1033;">18</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB6 (MISO)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 3</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="19" SDNUM="1033;">19</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>PB7 (SCK)</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 2 (burst jumper)</TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=RIGHT SDVAL="20" SDNUM="1033;">20</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Vcc</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 1</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>RESET</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>SCK</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 3</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>MISO</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 4</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>MOSI</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN4 pin 5</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>GND</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN2 pin 1</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN2 pin 2</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>
<TR>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>CN2 pin 3</TD>
<TD WIDTH=86 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT>Vcc</TD>
<TD WIDTH=186 HEIGHT=17 ALIGN=LEFT><BR></TD>
</TR>

</TABLE>



Apologies for the really long blank space at the top - I have no idea as to why the board is doing that....

Also, I didn't trace them through, but pin 12 or 13 would have to be the input for the battery voltage (to determine when a low battery condition exists).

[jeffremiller]

Thanks....

I see the buttons are also run to the stamp... Canyou tell the pinout of the stamp in relation to the board and micro?

J_

[Have Blue]

Um, how do you mean? You did have that chart of the stamp pinouts back on page 1...

[Have Blue]

Oh, and I have green displays on the way. They're backordered and about 4 weeks out, but at least they're coming....

[Have Blue]

Allrighty, I managed to track down the SMT switches used for the pushbuttons...

C&K KN01P3DSAQ, Digi-Key part # CKN1265CT-ND

Will oredr a few next time I get goodies from Digi-Key.

[Sledgehammer]

How much are the green Displays?

[Have Blue]

I'll be selling the green displays for $40 shipped.

[jeffremiller]

Hey Tom... or any moderator.... How about cleaning up this thread? Just leaving the tech info....

Also, HaveBlue, In regards to eyes... how close to the ball and or center of the ball does the eye need to be? I'm about to start drilling :the face of the PF plug.

Also, working on a power harness for Warp/Hopper to interface with the emag battery. and building an interlink plug into it as well. That way, my loading system and marker will be nice and neat when the two are separated with the NW QD I bought.

Pretty slick system, breaks down into air, loading and marker very quickly and cleanly.

Also, Tom...if you read this... Do you still want some help with Unix? or your phones?

J_

[Have Blue]

What I do with the photoeyes is use a current limiting resistor on the emitter side of the eye. I then adjust the sensitivity (and thus sensing distance) by changing the value of the resistor hooked up to the detector side of the eye (just like Tom's eye setup, though I use a fixed resistor rather than a potentiometer). I'll look up what values I used when I get home.

So I'd say just mount the eye in the PF plug however you like - this will probably take a bit of trial and error (and a few PF plugs) to get right.

[jeffremiller]

Hey, HaveBlue.... did you get a chance to look up the resistor value for the eye? I'm almost ready to mount the eye but I'm considering where to put the pot (or resistor) I like the idea of adjustability.

How much reprogramming would it tke to get this to work? Since it is looking at the second ball in the stack...will that make a difference?

J_

[AGD]

Hi Guys,

I am monitoring this thread. We are trying to get through end of year stuff right now. PF Plug eye sounds like its going to work well. Post some pics.

AGD

[Have Blue]

Green displays arrived today! Will have them up on my site later tonight, hopefully.



The second photo is a better representation of the actual color of the unit (as shown in the reflection on the right side of the picture)

Jeff - I have scrawled away somewhere that I'm using a 560 ohm resistor to limit current to the photoeye. I believe I'm using a 120 or 150 kohm resistor on the detector side - note that using a larger value resistor will increase the sensitivity of the eye.

Tom, I haven't forgotten about bringing by the camera - will be able to as soon as I get my winter car. I keep bugging my boss aboout finding the manual for the unit, but he seems to have misplaced it somewhere in his basement (where he had been using it to analyze his golf swing :-)

[BlackVCG]

Anything achieved with respect to the ACE in the PF plug?

[Have Blue]

Probably not - I still have to get a Warlord board out to jeffremiller for him to use (but I have to modify the beast first - hopefully one of this week's many many projects).

Regarding the pushbutton switches used on the board, I found that the KN01P3DSAQ is now discontinued. The direct replacement is ITT switch # KSS231G (available through Digi-Key as 401-1098-1-ND).

[Pand0ra]

Did some of you tried to use Rxd/Txd connections for extension purposes?
It could be quite easy to add a software implementation of an I2C bus. From there you could add any kind of sensors easily (Like the pressure in the tank, control the hopper/revo combo to keep a stack of balls in the revo, add a vibrer, etc... . And with a bit more room in the memory it would be plug and play.

Just ideas I've got a few time ago, but it seems I'm not the only one to play with my mag on this forum.

And if you ask, no I've not (yet) play with the software of my Emag. I've a lot of experience with µC from the 8051 generation (softs of 15000+ lines of code in assembler), but nothing with the Atmel.

@++

[Have Blue]

Well, there simply isn't enough room for extension. Unless you start ripping out parts of the code, that is. How many people actually use the countdown timer? That would be the first thing I'd comment out of the code in order to add more features or complete the character set.

[headcase]

Yep, bye bye to the timer(and the associated menu that allows you to choose how long it counts down) and the burst modes should free up a decent amount of room.

[Pand0ra]

I wonder what they've put inside which takes so much place.
The software of an Emag should be quite simple.
Maybe it comes from the way the program is made. C is not the best way to make a small program.

@++

[Have Blue]

There's minimal bloat in the E-Mag programming - it's not written in C. True, the micro has 2k, but AVR instructions are a whopping 16 bits long! Thus, you've only got 1000 (okay, 1024) instructions max in the program. Also, the LED module does not have its own internal character set - everything has to be stored in the micro. So storing a complete alphanumeric character set wipes out a lot of code space!

Now knowing how the AVR is organized, AGD really crammed a whole lot into that micro.