scuba tanks

**greenkill** · 05-31-2003, 05:40 PM

Has anyone ever bought a scuba tank to fill their HPA Tanks? I'm currently researching on what is needed to accomplish this. I went to my local scuba shop and what i was looking at was a 100 cuft 3500 PSI tank. However these tanks have DIN valves. Is there a fill station that has these type of valves? Do I need a converter to go from a DIN valve connection to a K valve connection for a standard HPA fill station? Or should I just be looking into a 3000 psi scuba tank with a K valve.

**Hellaspaint** · 06-01-2003, 06:11 AM

All SCUBA tanks above 3000psi are with DIN valve. You have to find a SCUBA fill station for DIN valves. They are from Stainless Steel with a gauge at 4500psi.

**Remington** · 06-01-2003, 07:53 AM

I'm not a scuba diver but, I've never heard of a "DIN" valve. I bought a used scuba tank from a local dive shop and it(along with all the other tanks I could see in the shop) came with a K valve. Anyway. Good luck!

**greenkill** · 06-01-2003, 12:34 PM

Originally posted by Hellaspaint
All SCUBA tanks above 3000psi are with DIN valve. You have to find a SCUBA fill station for DIN valves. They are from Stainless Steel with a gauge at 4500psi.

can you tell me of a website or a phone number that i can call to Stainless Steel?

Its rather ambigious for looking up on the web hehe

**rtslave** · 06-01-2003, 03:44 PM

I'm not completly sure but isn't a 100cu 3500psi like 250$, I would rather have three used 80cu or at least 2 new 80s, I might be wrong but I think you can get better(higher)fills more often with a cascading type system or maybe you jumping to 3500 counter acts the cascading idea. I'd like to know too.

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 06-01-2003, 10:21 PM

Hey,
Maybe you guys can help me on this one. Is it true that you need to be scuba certified (i dont think i can spell tonight) in order to have a scuba tank filled? Our team got a scuba from a friend and we have been told that we need to be certified for some scuba stuff.

Andrew

**rtslave** · 06-01-2003, 10:29 PM

Most shops just make you sign a waiver saying you won't use it as breathing air. The rest just fill them.

**classicmagplayer** · 06-01-2003, 10:35 PM

Yeah, you are suposed to, but if you can find a cool shop they will do it for you without certification. Make sure to tell them that you are only using it for paintball. Just got mine 2 weeks ago, worked great this weekend

Have to get another one to top of fills.

I was talking to the owner of the shop where I got my tank, he said that you can get a 80cf 3500 psi tank with a K valve, for about $20 more than a 80cf 3000psi tank. He told me this a week after I bought mine, real nice of him.

**greenkill** · 06-01-2003, 10:55 PM

Originally posted by rtslave
I'm not completly sure but isn't a 100cu 3500psi like 250$, I would rather have three used 80cu or at least 2 new 80s, I might be wrong but I think you can get better(higher)fills more often with a cascading type system or maybe you jumping to 3500 counter acts the cascading idea. I'd like to know too.

how do you set up a cascading system?

And any tank > 3000 psi, has a DIN valve, DIN valves are european standards if I did my research correctly.

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 06-01-2003, 11:29 PM

Hey,
Thanks. So I just got to a scuba place then? (sorry about pullin this off topic). Thanks

Andrew

**greenkill** · 06-02-2003, 12:33 AM

you have to have an understanding with your scuba shop that you will not be using the tank for breathing underwater... and you will be using it for filling your tanks for paintball... they probably will make you sign a waiver.. some shops won't do it because its a liability of some sort. i dunno its a case by case scenerio. just go check it out, doesn't hurt to ask

**TheDuelist** · 06-02-2003, 05:04 PM

Shops in my area make you write "Paintball Only" on the tanks so its evident thats what your using them for. Call around your area and see what different shops require.

**pbzmag** · 06-02-2003, 11:31 PM

I just asked the scuba shop near me and they had no problem. They didn't even make me sign a waiver. But yeah, many shops won't fill without a divers card. I was able to get a used one for $100.

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 06-03-2003, 12:35 PM

Hey,
HOw much is a fill? (I gotta find some places in my area still)

Andrew

**greenkill** · 06-03-2003, 01:54 PM

this scuba shop around my area said 5-6 bucks for 100 cubic feet tank

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 06-03-2003, 02:06 PM

WOW........man the shops are jippin us pretty bad. 3 bucks per K.....oh well......we got our tanks (2 of them...not sure on the size though). Thanks for the help guys.

Andrew

**Hellaspaint** · 06-04-2003, 04:07 AM

5-6$ if the tank is totally or near empty. I suppose there is not a pballer's tank with less 1200-1400 psi. So ask them for a better price and explain them that the commpessor need's may be half time to fill the tank at the desire pressure.
A diver is going to the Scuba commpressor with a few psi in the tank.

**MarkM** · 06-04-2003, 08:36 AM

Originally posted by greenkill

how do you set up a cascading system?

And any tank > 3000 psi, has a DIN valve, DIN valves are european standards if I did my research correctly.

Two variations on the same theme.

For whoever it was in this thread asking what a DIN fitting was, this is the type of fitting with a threaded outlet valve only found on the 300bar tanks the other type is called an "A" clamp and this is the most widespread type as the majority of people who dive don't have a need for the higher pressure rated bottle so hence no need for a DIN valve. Not a European thing just a pressure thing

**greenkill** · 06-04-2003, 10:26 AM

yeah I notice all tanks > 3000 psi has a din fitting... so i knew it was a pressure thing, I just read somewhere that it was a european standard. *shrug*

**akscubainst** · 06-04-2003, 04:14 PM

DIN =Deutsches Institut fur Normung; an association that develops and suggests manufacturing guidelines. A DIN valve is a special valve design that screws into the tank valve.

Standard SCUBA Yokes are only rated for 3000psi. High pressure steel tanks are filled to 3500 psi and therefore require a more stable regulator to valve connection. I'd prefer not to have my regulator get blown into the back of my head with 3500 pounds of force.

I would recommend just getting an 80 if your going to use a SCUBA tank. The HP tanks are twice the cost and not much is gained going from 3000 to 3500psi. The gain for divers is that they are heavier.

I got into paintball cause certain people (Gadget68 and Nerowolf) went to my competitor to get their Scuba tanks filled and were refused service. When they came to us and explained their need, I had no problem filling their tank. This lead to them getting me out playing and now I own a paintball shop in addition to Scuba.

We charge $4.00 to fill a Scuba tank (anysize) and 2.00 to fill a painball cylinder. Most of the time if someone wants a paintball cylinder filled and they are buying something else, I'll do it for free. I know most of the local paintball community so I don't give anyone a hassle about filling their tanks.

If you really want to be efficient get a 4500psi composite SCBA cylinder. It looks like a giant paintball cylinder but is used for firefighting. Fills to 4500 PSI and has a CGA347 valve on it.

If anybody needs a DIN or CGA347 fill adapter let me know I can get the parts and build you one.

DM

**pbzmag** · 06-04-2003, 04:58 PM

Originally posted by akscubainst
If you really want to be efficient get a 4500psi composite SCBA cylinder. It looks like a giant paintball cylinder but is used for firefighting. Fills to 4500 PSI and has a CGA347 valve on it.
DM

How much do those tanks cost?

**akscubainst** · 06-04-2003, 05:32 PM

You really want to know?

$700 to $2200 new. You can of course find them on Ebay for dirt cheap. The cylinder has the same life (15 years) and hydro requirement (3 years) as paintball cylinders. I've found that a lot of the guys selling them on Ebay are surplus dealers who have no clue about the 15 year life.

There's an entire SCBA with a 1992 cylinder out there right now for $400.00

Scuba is still the way to go! 5 used aluminum 80's or 1 SCBA.

**eisenhans** · 06-06-2003, 02:04 PM

Hiya,

I have been told that the DOT will in the near future finally allow the use of the 4500 psi SCUBA tanks Europeans have been using for ages.

I lived in the UK a few years ago and bought a 300 bar (300 bar ~ 4410 psi) for just under GBP 100 = $160. Back then I only had 3000 psi PB tanks and one usually gets quite a few fills of those from the HP SCUBA tanks.

DIN = Deutsche Industrie Norm (German Industrial Norm) which are indeed published by the Deutsches Institut fuer Normung.

Regards,

eisenhans

**akscubainst** · 06-06-2003, 05:00 PM

I hadn't heard that, but would guess that if they do it will take a long time for them to catch on if ever.

We first started using 3500psi steel tanks in the late 80's and for all of their advantages they still aren't mainstream. (I fill 20 AL80s for 1 Steel 80)

For those of you who aren't divers, an empty aluminum 80 floats when it's close to empty, a steel 80 sinks. This means that by using a steel 80, it's shorter so it's more comfortable and it allows you to take about 6-8 pounds off your weight belt. In Alaska, that means a 22lb belt vs a 30lb one.

Overall cost is one of the big reasons aluminum 80's aren't obsolete. I sell a new AL80 for about $135, my cost with freight is about $130. (not getting rich I know!) A steel 80 runs somewhere near $230 plus you've got to spend about $75 to convert you reg over to DIN and about $50 for the adapter to convert it back to yoke if you want the flexibility to use both.

The other drawback to 4500 or more psi is that most Scuba shops aren't prepared to pump to that pressure. Given the expense to upgrade or replace their compressors, I would guess that they would just ignore the existence of or discourage customers from buying them by not offering fills.

My compressor is just over 2 years old and cost me $13,000 new. (we joke that it cost as much as my wife's Honda) it's capable of pumping 5000psi but that really increases the wear and tear on it. If there becomes a real demand for 4500-5000psi fills, I'll look at a booster before I put that kind of wear on my compressor.

Wow! I'm starting to babble better shutup now!

**AndrewGore(OTB)** · 06-06-2003, 07:02 PM

Hey,
Got my tank filled. Just had to sign a waiver. Cost us 5 bucks. I have another tank that needs to be hydroed, luckily it will only cost 20 bucks and 8 days. Thanks for the help guys.

Andrew

**Hellaspaint** · 06-07-2003, 03:58 AM

Very useful talk about tanks, fills, commpressors here.
I have a Bauer commpressor with 3300psi and 5000psi filling capability. When you are using the 5000psi it is not giving pressure in the 3300psi for safety reason.
The Bauer distributor here in Greece told me that it is not correct to have the same fill nipple in 3000psi and 4500psi paintball bottles. I think he is right. I think paintball industry must do something about that.
Akscubainst you are absolutely right about the wear in a commpressor when it is filling 4500psi. The service life is decreasing dramatically with 4500psi. You have to change costly parts more often.

**nippinout** · 06-08-2003, 04:20 AM

Cascade fills for dummies

Let's say you want to fill your paintball tank.

For your cascade system, you have 3 big SCUBA tanks.

Start filling your paintball tank by filling from the SCUBA tank with the lowest pressure. Then move on to the SCUBA tank with the next lowest pressure. Continue until you are out of SCUBA tanks!

The concept behind cascade filling is to waste as little potential as possible. Instead of having a fill tank that begins to fill at 3000psi to drop to say 1000 psi in a day and stop filling from it, we use that 1000psi.

We can't fill a tank to 3000psi from a 1000psi tank. We fill our paintball tank off of that 1000psi tank, then we can use a higher pressured tank to finish off the remaining 2000psi. By doing this, the higher pressured tank loses less pressure by topping off rather than begin filling an empty tank.

**eisenhans** · 06-09-2003, 02:36 PM

Originally posted by akscubainst
shortened
For those of you who aren't divers, an empty aluminum 80 floats when it's close to empty, a steel 80 sinks. This means that by using a steel 80, it's shorter ....

Can somebody please explain to me why SCUBA tank volume here in the US is measured in what equates to "volume of the gas content at 20 degrees Celsius at 1 ATM pressure"? All the while the regular system used for all other tanks (and for SCUBA elsewhere) is to simply give the inside volume of the tank ...

Overall cost is one of the big reasons aluminum 80's aren't obsolete. I sell a new AL80 for about $135, my cost with freight is about $130. (not getting rich I know!) A steel 80 runs somewhere near $230 plus you've got to spend about $75 to convert you reg over to DIN and about $50 for the adapter to convert it back to yoke if you want the flexibility to use both.

Divers in the US get completely ripped off when it comes to steel - methinks. The HP tanks in the UK were about 10-20% more expensive than the 207 bar ones. Most higher end regulators made by European manufacturers are HP compatible anyway and DIN fittings cost actually the same or are even cheaper.

Why would you want to buy a converter and not a DIN unit in the first place?

The other drawback to 4500 or more psi is that most Scuba shops aren't prepared to pump to that pressure. Given the expense to upgrade or replace their compressors, I would guess that they would just ignore the existence of or discourage customers from buying them by not offering fills.
y compressor is just over 2 years old and cost me $13,000 new. (we joke that it cost as much as my wife's Honda) it's capable of pumping 5000psi but that really increases the wear and tear on it. If there becomes a real demand for 4500-5000psi fills, I'll look at a booster before I put that kind of wear on my compressor.

M

Yery valid points although the non US diving businesses seem to have been able to upgrade their compressors etc ...without becoming unprofitable. Given that most SCUBA shops seem to charge between $4-5 per fill, I'd imagine that there is enough of a margin in there to pay for the higher costs.

Cheers,

eisenhans

**eisenhans** · 06-09-2003, 02:47 PM

Originally posted by Hellaspaint shortened
.
The Bauer distributor here in Greece told me that it is not correct to have the same fill nipple in 3000psi and 4500psi paintball bottles. I think he is right. I think paintball industry must do something about that.
A

Quite why? ;-) The fill nipples (at least some I bought a few years agon) are actually certified for higher pressures (hydraulics) than 4500 psi.

Many of the other components we routinely use in our CA rigs are _not_ certified/intended for the pressures we run them at. Macro Line fittings, gauges (see my reply to another post), remote lines.

Cheers,

eisenhans

**poloniusreep** · 06-09-2003, 03:14 PM

Get a decal that says for paintball use only I havent had one shop not let me fill as long as i had that on there. You can find a used tank some tanks that aren't fit for diving work great for paintball.

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