scuba tanks

**akscubainst** · 06-09-2003, 03:21 PM

Fill nipples:

If you look at Hydraulic fitting catalogs, Brass is only rated to 3000psi, carbon steel to 5000psi, and stainless can be much higher like 10,000psi. Technically, the prudent thing would be to use stainless for the added safety factor.

Most of the other hoses and lines people are using are downstream of the bottle regulator so they are only subject to about 800psi.

Can somebody please explain to me why SCUBA tank volume here in the US.....

Because in the US we like to do things our way. Some figured out how much air we stuffed into a cylinder and called it an 80. We don't like to change and we like to picture things in feet and inches. Doing things in BAR is like using the metric system we don't do it.

Why would you want to buy a converter and not a DIN unit in the first place:

You could certinally buy a reg setup for DIN from the factory and the price is usually the same as a yoke type. But given that most of the tanks in the US are yoke, as a diver you would want an adapter to go back to yoke for the flexability. Most charter boats and travel destinations don't offer DIN tanks.

Given that most SCUBA shops seem to charge between $4-5 per fill, I'd imagine that there is enough of a margin in there to pay for the higher costs:

Let me see $4.00 per fill, 10-12min compressor time at 220V/AC, $1.00 per hour for the filter, Labor, maintenance, loan payment, the list goes on and on. 30 SCUBA fills per week (small operation) that's $480 gross per month. No, there's not much margin in the cost of air fills. I'm lucky to break even. It's the sales made while the customer is in the store that cover the expenses and make the profit.

**eisenhans** · 06-09-2003, 06:27 PM

Originally posted by Hellaspaint shortened
They are from Stainless Steel with a gauge at 4500psi.

It should of course be gauge rated for this kind of pressure and most of these will go up to 6000 psi. The 4.5-5000psi gauges (especially of the mini type) many manufacturers put on HPA systems and almost all fillstations are intended/rated for working pressures of, say, 3000 psi.

SCUBA divers learn to point the pressure gauges of their tanks away when they gas up, paintballers should too.

Regards,

eisenhans

**eisenhans** · 06-09-2003, 08:59 PM

Originally posted by akscubainst shortened
Fill nipples:

If you look at Hydraulic fitting catalogs, Brass is only rated to 3000psi, carbon steel to 5000psi, and stainless can be much higher like 10,000psi. Technically, the prudent thing would be to use stainless for the added safety factor.

Well, all mine are stainless steel of course ;-)

Most of the other hoses and lines people are using are downstream of the bottle regulator so they are only subject to about 800psi.

The older style Macro/Microline fittings are certified for 300 or 500 psi respectively.

Because in the US we like to do things our way..... Doing things in BAR is like using the metric system we don't do it.

You sure do like the imperial system ;-)
I'd just didn't realize you also liked to be inconsistent:

SCUBA tanks = measured in volume of uncompressed gas

all other HP containers = measured in volume of the empty tank

SCNR:
"If God had wanted us to use the metric system, he would given us ten fingers."

"You honestly want us to use a system invented by the French?"

Why would you want to buy a converter and not a DIN unit in the first place:

You could certinally buy a reg setup for DIN from the factory and the price is usually the same as a yoke type. But given that most of the tanks in the US are yoke, as a diver you would want an adapter to go back to yoke for the flexability. Most charter boats and travel destinations don't offer DIN tanks.

Ok. I interpreted your original post to mean: buy an A clamp reg and have it converted and then by an adapter ...

You could of course simply have an adapter for the filling part (male A-clamp and male DIN).

Given that most SCUBA shops seem to charge between $4-5 per fill, I'd imagine that there is enough of a margin in there to pay for the higher costs:

Let me see $4.00 per fill, 10-12min compressor time at 220V/AC, $1.00 per hour for the filter, Labor, maintenance, loan payment, the list goes on and on. 30 SCUBA fills per week (small operation) that's $480 gross per month. No, there's not much margin in the cost of air fills. I'm lucky to break even. It's the sales made while the customer is in the store that cover the expenses and make the profit.

My local dive shop claims to be able to fill a 3000 psi tank for about $0.60 and charges also $4. Which is why he is quite happy to give folks who buy a $139 tank from him vouchers for 36 free fills.
Admittedly, his operation is rather larger (more like 30 fills a day)

Have a nice day,

eisenhans

**Frank (the spank)** · 06-09-2003, 10:45 PM

Damn this thread has some good info!

I have a scuba tank on order, so the scuba shop gave me a rental until it gets here along with free fills.

I used it for the first time this last saturday, man... it was great! 5 minutes from when the UPS driver dropped off my fill station I filled my first tank. I played all day saturday and it was so easy in between games to run to my Blazer and fill my tank while it was on my gun.

I have a question about filling my tank. When I do a fill, I slowly open the valve and let it hiss into my tank as slow as I can, takes a full minute until I reach 3000psi. But... my tank is still hot! Should I fill it 1000psi at a time and wait maybe a minute in between so I don't heat the tank up too much? I have a new Flatline 4500 that cost me almost $400.. it WILL last me FOREVER, lol

Any tips would be great.

**nippinout** · 06-10-2003, 01:57 AM

When you fill, use the fill tank's gauges. They are usually more accurate than the ones on our paintball tanks.

I fill my tank to about 3000psi. I let the tank cool for about 5 minutes and then top it off again.

The field I used to go to filled my tank to about 3500psi. When I asked them to top it off, they told me it would cool down to 3000psi. When I learned he over-filled my tank I was pissed off they would do such a thing.

Safety first!

Isn't it fun being able to use more than one tank of gas without having to drive to the paintball shop?

**openboater** · 06-10-2003, 11:53 AM

My new scuba's cost $149 with 10 free fills. Fill card is $40 for 10 fills. $5 for a single fill. A new AL80 is rated for a 10% overfill so my SCUBA shop will fill to 3200.

Cost for yearly visual inspection is $19.95, which includes a free fill.

4 of us cascade off 4 scuba's and have fills of 2900 at the end of 4-5 hours of play, and 4-5 cases of paint.

Oh Yea, don't forget to buy the cute little plastic net protector and base for the tank.

I wouldn't buy a used tank unless it is real cheap. When you figure in the added costs of visuals and hydro's and the goodwill you get from your dealer for buying his tank, you're farther ahead buying new from a dealer.

**hitech** · 06-10-2003, 12:21 PM

I don't fill any slower than that (probably faster) and my tank doesn't get hot (not even warm). That doesn't sound right. Is the scuba tank hot?

**xen_100** · 06-10-2003, 12:46 PM

what do you mean by "hot"? it is really warm (like it burns you?) or just 10 degrees or so warmer? when you compress air it is going to get warmer. but unless it is getting the tank really warm (like 150 degrees or something) dont worry about it.

**akscubainst** · 06-10-2003, 12:57 PM

Bill High is the formost authority on cylinders both SCUBA and SCBA. Here's his take on fill speed. If you look at his site you will also find a generic liability release for dive shops to use for paintball fills.

http://www.psicylinders.com/library/Fast%20Fill.htm

**hitech** · 06-10-2003, 07:08 PM

I read the paintball release and was just curious. Why couldn't you loan your tank to someone to use to dive with?

**greenkill** · 06-10-2003, 08:48 PM

Probably safety issues. You don't want to be underwater relying your life on a tank that has been banged around by paintball usage and stuff.. iono thats the only thing i could come up wiht.

**akscubainst** · 06-10-2003, 10:51 PM

By signing it your saying that the fill you are buying is for Paintball. If someone who's certified wants to use it they would bring it in and buy a fill for diving.

It's not that you can't loan it out, but by signing the release, you're responsible if some idiot goes out and drowns with it. It takes the liability off the shop.

The one thing that is so difficult with owning a dive shop is the liability. We're about to get our annual insurance bill it'll be about $5,000.

I started teaching a basic SCUBA class last night. The first hour is pretty much taken up by paperwork to release liability.

Welcome to our sue happy society.

**kdawg** · 06-13-2003, 08:01 PM

I run 2-80cf tanks connected by a yoke crossover and one scuba-paintball fill station. Nice, because I don't have to take off the tank and go to the next tank. I just have to turn one valve-fill a little(close valve), open other valve and top off. Nice way to cascade.

Local scuba shop charges $25 for 10 fill card (2.50 a fill) can't beat that really. Funny thing, they ask if it is for paintball or diving. No difference, just have to see a card if diving. No signing of waivers or anything if for paintball--so what's the point of asking? Thought that was funny.

**hitech** · 06-16-2003, 11:51 AM

Originally posted by kdawg
I run 2-80cf tanks connected by a yoke crossover and one scuba-paintball fill station.

Funny thing, they ask if it is for paintball or diving...No signing of waivers or anything if for paintball--so what's the point of asking?

Same here. "We" have a yoke crossover also. And the dive shop where I fill my tanks also doesn't require any waivers. 90% of their fills are for paintball. He stocks alum. tanks just for paintball. They are just down the street from Delta.

**madmatt151** · 06-16-2003, 10:04 PM

Is there a way to get a 4500 fill from cascading 3000 scuba tanks? Is it possible?

**akscubainst** · 06-16-2003, 10:50 PM

nope Cascades stretch the fills but 3000psi is 3000psi.

**madmatt151** · 06-16-2003, 11:28 PM

Thanks, so you wouldn't recommend getting a tank online or ebay? I realize you are a dealer, but what are the major reasons against it? Thanks.

**rkjunior303** · 06-17-2003, 08:08 AM

This is great info.. How many fills do you normally get out of a normal size tank?

**akscubainst** · 06-17-2003, 10:11 AM

SCUBA tanks require 2 tests, the standard 5 year hydro and an annual visual inspection.

The annual is usually about $15-20 and requires the shop to drain the tank and give the tank a thorough once over. Some say this is actually more important for safety than the hydro test.

Given this, If you bring a tank into a dive shop without a current visual or at least one they reconize as local, they are probably going to make you get one. I would for my safety.

If it's a new tank it needs to be visualed before it's assembled. People have found dead rats in SCUBA tanks Some of them after the've been breathing off the tank for a year.

You're going to pay freight which for a 30-40lb cylinder is $25-30.

If it's out of Hydro there's another $25-50 depending on where you are.

So that $80 tank on Ebay can end-up costing you as much or more than an new one.

One thing I've had customers do is buy a tank at a garage sale or somewhere on agreement that if it fails any test, they get their money back. That's hard to do online.

If you can get a deal online great but be advised that you will have additional expenses.

**madmatt151** · 06-17-2003, 09:16 PM

Thanks alot, that is good sound advice. I will probably buy from the local guy here. He has even spoke of setting the tank up witht he right valves and stuff to have me set up already. He also told me that he can order hoses to any length I need that will hold the pressure. I mean to use these for my tank to valve connection on my gun. Seems like working local is better.

**abaez** · 10-13-2003, 11:46 PM

Bump for a great thread and some great info.. I bought two scubas nearly brand new from this guy locally for about 125.. had to hydro them and stuff but it's so worth it.. I didn't know about this cascading.. I have two tanks that me and my friend use.. would it be good to lets say.. fill both our tanks to full with one.. then from then on after fill with the first tank.. then top off with the other?

**akscubainst** · 10-14-2003, 11:49 AM

Here's a real cascade system. You would hook the tank to the fill whip, open the first bottle fill until it is either full or they equalize then close that cylinder and go on to the next and so on until your tank is full.

You can do the same thing with scuba tanks just always fill from the scuba tank with the lowest pressure first and work your way up.

Dave

Oh yea, this picture belongs to american airworks . com

**Big'n slo** · 10-14-2003, 11:59 AM

Dave's (akscubainst) a great guy everyone. He knows what he's talking about and can adapt just about any fitting for use with paintball....

Speaking of which Dave, I'm gonna need that SCBA adapter

Jeff

**postma** · 10-16-2003, 08:49 AM

I noticed everyone saying to get a tank with a DIN valve? Is this what is needed for the common fill stations? I have looked at some with DIN valves and it doesn't look right.
Thanks,
Kory

**akscubainst** · 10-16-2003, 01:05 PM

DIN is a screw in connection intended for pressures above 3442psi. The typical yoke isn't rated above 3442psi (this just changed it was 3000psi) To use DIN with Paintball I recommend you get a fill station that is setup for DIN. It's going to be more expensive but safety is key.

Divers who want to use DIN have to have an conversion kit installed on the 1st stage reg.

Dave

**postma** · 10-16-2003, 03:37 PM

so what type of valve do common scuba fill stations use? What is it called?
Kory

**akscubainst** · 10-16-2003, 03:42 PM

A standard scuba valve is called a "K" Valve

**Fuji** · 10-17-2003, 06:46 PM

Originally posted by Hellaspaint The Bauer distributor here in Greece told me that it is not correct to have the same fill nipple in 3000psi and 4500psi paintball bottles. I think he is right. I think paintball industry must do something about that.

Actually, Nitroduck used to have a nipple that had a different fitting. For just that reason. Granted, they had an adaptor that allowed you to fill off of a 3k station. Which, since no one had that special male fitting for the 4.5k tanks, conveniently worked for all fills. I just sold my old nitroduck that had that fitting.

**jewie27** · 10-18-2003, 02:02 AM

"I have been told that the DOT will in the near future finally allow the use of the 4500 psi SCUBA tanks Europeans have been using for ages."

This year Luxfer USA has made 4350 PSI SCUBA Cylinders. They are being sold by XS SCUBA. All of you with 4500 or 5000 PSI paintball tanks should check them out.

I also work in a SCUBA Shop, any questions? Just post a message.

**Outlaw5** · 10-18-2003, 05:19 PM

Roughly how much is the price for the new Luxfer 4350 Scuba cylinder? Just wondering because I want to go that route if possible.

Thread: scuba tanks

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