Help.... Got trigger bounce on an X-Mag

cgrieves · 08-11-2003, 05:26 PM

Not bounce in the usual style, but with the marker degassed, when I slowly depress my trigger, there's a point in it's travel where the marker just fires repeatedly very fast, as if the Hall effect sensor is retiggering. I've tried a variety of magnet and trigger magnet positions to no avail (although as the trigger is held completlely still, i can't see it's a magnet issue anyway)

I've checked the sensor and it's installed correctly (with a 90 degree bend in the wiring) and the marker does it even if I engage ACE2 and put my finger over the ACE sensor.

Any ideas?

**BlackVCG** · 08-11-2003, 06:40 PM

It happens. I have a Morlock board and I think the output from it to the HES is a bit more than the stock board so that point where it goes FA is more obvious. You still have to pull the trigger slowly to find it, though.

There really isn't a fix for it. I'll bet you could install some sort of resistor inline with the HES to prevent that from happening, but I'm not electronic oriented enough to know how to do that properly.

cgrieves · 08-12-2003, 01:35 AM

OK Cool

I have to say when firing paint I haven't had it happen- I suppose the recoil effect makes finding that retrigger point virtually impossible. Add the ACE effect and it's even more unlikely. Just worried that a determined chrono marshall could find it (why do they always seem to pick on Mags!)

Also the adjustability of the E/X-Mag trigger is astounding!

**ignatz** · 08-12-2003, 04:25 PM

I had the same thing happen to my EMag... I thought it was a symptom of the trigger bounce issue I've been reading about. I backed out my trigger adjustment magnet a bit and now it doesn't happen anymore. I wish I had left it alone.

cgrieves · 08-13-2003, 02:00 PM

Yeah I've tried my magnet all the way between forward and back, and with different return magnet configurations, and it's always possible to find that point where it find multiple shots very fast....

Also I tried it with paint today and it's still possible to fire multiple shots, even on ACE2. A competent chrono marshall would have a field day with it.....

The only thing I found that seems wrong is the locking nut on the solenoid plunger was at the top of the thread rather than at the bottom, i.e. not actually locking the plunger. I removed the sear assembly and tightened it against the plunger. The plunger itself is so stiff on the thread that I don't think it can have moved from the stock position though. After fixing that the problem remains though.

Is it possible that the magnetic field from the solenoid is causing the Hall Effect sensor to retrigger? Or has anyone got any other ideas?

**Skoad** · 08-13-2003, 11:28 PM

my emag does that, i thought it was just something to do with the sear not catching, or whatever while there's no gas.

**Smokee_2_7** · 08-15-2003, 09:01 PM

Im having this problem on my brand new x-also.

Originally, we were able to find a 'full auto' spot with no air or paint. Playing with the trigger setup seemed to get rid of this though. Now, One of my friends was able to find a bouncy spot only while the gun had paint in it. Once the hopper was empty, we couldnt get it to bounce anymore.

Just for the record, this is occuring in E-mode only. (although hybrid is bouncy in its own right)

I would definitly like a solution to this problem - - I too am worried that my gun may be deemed illegal in a tournamnent.

Carl

**Riddler236** · 08-16-2003, 05:23 PM

My X-mag did it, too. I found the spot by accident when adjusting the trigger and ended up with the F/A spot right at the back of the pull. Hold down the trigger and it rips of a string of paint. I adjusted it so that the spot was a lot harder to find, but it was still there.

E- and X-mags are incredible guns, but there were two reasons I decided to stick with my Viking over the X-Mag, and this was one of them. The other is that, in Hybrid mode, the gun will shoot twice per pull. Once in E mode and once mechanically. There are two ways to eliminate this: adjust the trigger rod a lot closer to the trigger (but it may become reactive in E mode) or remove the trigger rod altogether. Either way, the chrono ref might not like it. Just like the HES F/A thing.

**FordPrefect** · 08-16-2003, 07:48 PM

I also have this spot on my E-mag, but it only works with the BPS capped at 15 or 16. If I turn it down to 14 (and I can't pull that fast anyways) I can't get it to do it at all.

That wouldn't make it any harder for people to maybe cheat with it, but I can't/won't.

EDIT Also, I forgot to mention, I (think, if I remember right) got strings of 75-100 per the shot counter. This was just me pulling the trigger with no gas or anything though.

**Smokee_2_7** · 08-16-2003, 07:55 PM

Well, we found this spot primairly with the ACE off, ROF set to 16.

Its not that I can pull that fast, but due to the way the board is programmed i can shoot ALOT faster when the rof is set to 24 with the eye on- - its just eaisier to get faster strings off.

**Branchvillian** · 08-26-2003, 03:59 PM

I founbd this yesterday, and I'm worried. I have a tourny coming up soon, and I only have my e mag. How do I get rid of this completley so the chrono guy won't find it, cuz it's obvious. Why didn't AGD realize that e/x mags did this and would potentially be deemed illegal?

**terrorizer666** · 08-26-2003, 05:19 PM

Branchvillain,
thanks for bringing this up again. I am experiencing the same, exactly the same. I first thought I must be crazy, but no matter what, I can get the trigger to shoot f/a with a bit of searching. No matter if ACE is on or not.

I have 2 tourneys coming, too, and I need to get rid of that primarily. Anyone got a solution ? My Board version is 2.21 and I have 1 o ring and 1 magnet installed on the trigger.

Somehow I am glad I am not the only one having this problem, but how to get rid of it ? If anyone knows, please post !

The Chronomarshall will kill me

**magman007** · 08-26-2003, 05:31 PM

HEy just se if the chrono marshal even notices it first. I have the same problem, and i think we all do to some extent. I want this fixed. I dont care if agd installs a micro switch into my gun, i want it fixed. i can find it, and im sure others will be able to as well. I need to hands to find mine, but thats besides the point

**terrorizer666** · 08-26-2003, 05:45 PM

Hell I would even give up the mechanical / hybrid mode for that.

I PMed cgrieves and he said he assumes, that it might have to do with the solenoid interfering the HES... hell I dunno, I just hope someone has a good solution. What do the AGD techs say ? Seems like this is more than a well known problem.

**Branchvillian** · 08-26-2003, 06:11 PM

Yeh, I really an't afford for my gun to be deemed illegal at a tourny, I have no backup- for the moment. If a tech would shine some light on this, or if we could get this fixed someonehow I would be very pleased

**Smokee_2_7** · 08-26-2003, 08:17 PM

AGD knows about the problem. Its just that no one is saying anything about it right now. Still havent gotten a reply back on my email; and I recall that in another thread in Paintball talk (when I found the First inicdence of E-mode bounce) Tom had commented on it. It seemed that HE said thatthis only affected some guns, generally when they were set to the HIGH ROF's. Well, mine did it at 16cps. . . Not to mention that I Prefer to shoot the gun at 24 due to the trigger being SO much eaisier to walk.

We still haven't heard anything about a 'real' fix yet.

Yes, im worried about world cup in october (orlando).

And, Now that I found out that there may be a chance that AGD is NOT there, im even more worried now.

Carl

**magman007** · 08-26-2003, 09:47 PM

yea, well i want it fixed, or im goving up my beloved, for an LCD trix.

i want to know if there is a solution, if none is found within a month, then im sorry to say, the sfl is gone.

**AGD** · 08-26-2003, 11:37 PM

I an not really clear on whats happening here. No one has come to me in the shop and said there was a big problem with trigger bounce.

First thing I would check is the trigger pre fire and post fire travel. If its too short then you are going to get switch bounce in any gun. You CAN adjust your tigger pull distance so this is on the hairy edge. This can change by itself if you get metal particles sticking on your magnet at the top of the trigger.

The second way you can have the problem is by setting your firing rate too high. This allows trigger pulls in a shorter time frame. Most people set it to 20 because it makes them feel better but this can cause the same problem. Set it to a couple bps above your actual bps and forget about it.

The 3.0 software in progress now will have a window adjustment for allowing the next pull in.

AGD

**DocRocker** · 08-27-2003, 12:29 AM

I dont know why everyone gets som upset about this. Hmm lets me see everyone doesnt mind these timmys that I see that if you wave your finger over the trigger (ie barely tap it) the gun fires yet they care if an emag fires if you can sweet spot it. to me its all the same. Its pretty much the same to me if you can get a timmy to crank out 20 bps by barely wiggling your finger or you get 20 from an emag if you can hold your finger reallly still as it cranks 20 bps. Just my 2 cents

You know if this is really a safety issue than I think the best thing to do would be standardize trigger pulls.
for example
1. trigger pull has to be a certain minimum distance to fire
2. the trigger pull weight has to be a minimum
3. all electronic guns have to have incorporated a safety mechanism so that no matter how much input, be it bounce or just pulling the trigger really damn fast that it cannot go past 16 bps.

what ya think?

**lamby** · 08-27-2003, 01:02 AM

Tom,

Isn't that what the BPS adjustment does? Looking at the 1.37 code it appears to be a sample and hold circuit before the marker is allowed to cycle again. Are you going to have 2 delay circuits running together? Will this effect anything if you have two timers? I think what you might want top look at is a slightly larger filter capacitor on the HES to filter noise induced by slight magnetic vaiations induced by the sensor. I would have to look at the board again, but dont you have a small 100pf ceramic cap in there? maybe a lytic would be better for this, as it discharges slower. Just a sugestion.

**yagrmiestr** · 08-27-2003, 02:13 AM

I would have to look at the board again, but dont you have a small 100pf ceramic cap in there? maybe a lytic would be better for this, as it discharges slower. Just a sugestion. [/B]

uh, I think there is only a 10k pull up on the HES sensor output. I suppose you could solder a 0805 sized cap right on top of it to do some debounce filtering.

**terrorizer666** · 08-27-2003, 03:42 AM

Originally posted by AGD
I an not really clear on whats happening here. No one has come to me in the shop and said there was a big problem with trigger bounce.

Getting a flight from Germany over to Chicago just for a gun issue isn´t that cheap, Tom.

Originally posted by AGD
First thing I would check is the trigger pre fire and post fire travel. If its too short then you are going to get switch bounce in any gun.

It isn´t, neither in mine, nor in cgrieves gun. As he said :

Originally posted by cgrieves
I've tried a variety of magnet and trigger magnet positions to no avail

Same to me. That is no real triggerbounce like you know it from switchboarded guns like Angels or Racegun Cockers. This is different. You can have the triggertravel a dozen millimeters long, and still in the middle of this travel there is a point where you can hold the trigger and the X Mag is shooting like crazy. To me it feels like it´s the magnet swinging around the firing point, allowing the board to detect triggerpulls all the time, so that it fires. Well I think you should know better, I am not too experienced with magnetic triggers.

Originally posted by AGD
The second way you can have the problem is by setting your firing rate too high. This allows trigger pulls in a shorter time frame. Most people set it to 20 because it makes them feel better but this can cause the same problem. Set it to a couple bps above your actual bps and forget about it.

Okay, I can shoot 15-16 bps at a good day. Setting it "a couple" BPS higher would end up in setting it to 19 or 20. 20 is the max RoF I can set my gun to... Even if I lower it a bit, it´s still there.
I don´t understand, why I shouldn´t be able to shoot as fast as I want to, without bps caps ? I mean this is a high tech high end gun, well thought through, so it should be possible to get rid of this triggerbounce problem without limiting yourself.

Originally posted by AGD
The 3.0 software in progress now will have a window adjustment for allowing the next pull in.

AGD

That´s a good thing, sounds like a debounce filter to me.
I hope that helps getting rid of this. You said you would not know when your software guy would finish the programming, but I guess I see my 2 tournies going down the drain

cgrieves · 08-27-2003, 05:24 AM

Hi Tom, just to clarify what I'm experiencing, with the marker degassed I can slowly pull the trigger back and there is a point where the marker triggers repeatedly very fast. So it's not classic trigger bounce in terms of recoil moving the trigger back past the retrigger point. I have tried setting the trigger to both long and short stroke lengths, with the firing point towards the front, back and middle of the stroke, and that "retriggering" point is always achievable. I've tried it at lower firing rates and the retrigger point is still achievable, it just triggers more slowly.

At the last tourney it wasn't a problem as the marshalls chronoed our guns as we fired them. Indeed, the marker performed flawlessly and the trigger action was exactly how I like it. However even with gas and paint the retrigger point is achievable, although it would be pointless to try in a game situation. Nevertheless I am worried that at the Campaign Cup Millennium round in a few weeks the marshalls will be firing and chronoing the markers themselves.

I tried a few other X-Mags with the same software at the last training day and no others had the problem. I had a chat with Sosta and he suggested pulling the trigger out and scrupulously cleaning everything, which I will do asap. Is it possible that the magnetic field from my solenoid is causing the HES to retrigger? I will try installing some conducting foil between the solenoid and HES aperture as a magnetic shield to test that possibility.

Also is it worth rotating the HE sensor through 180 degrees (i.e. exposing the opposite face to the trigger magnet) or does it have a "polarity" as such?

**Strider** · 08-27-2003, 08:41 AM

I'm not the most technical with these issues, but might it be possible that the HES wires are loose? If it's only happening in some, that might be one thing to check...

EDIT - Just checked the parts list, I mean the Hall Harness...

cgrieves · 08-27-2003, 08:52 AM

Yeah I've checked that. Also I would expect to see intermittent firing if that were the case.

I have read up a bit on HE sensors. I see that there is trigger point at which the magnetic flux density triggers the sensor, and a lower point below which the sensor releases. The Hysteresis between the two acts much like a microswitch so that you have to release the switch a certain distance before you can retrigger. I wonder if my HE sensor is faulty and doesn't have this hysteresis. If I can't fix it I will look into sourcing a new sensor.

**lamby** · 08-27-2003, 09:32 AM

yagermeister,

I got home and checked. You are correct in the fact that there is no filter cap inline. I think here lies our problem with this hes problem. But the bigger the cap the slower the max BPS will become. What would be a decent starting range? I am thinking around 200pf should work if it is a lytic, and 500pf if it is a ceramic style.

Anyway, Tom's "designers" should be able to do the math. I am not in a position to care anymore. Just tring to help others understand that there is a problem and insist on a solution better than "cheat your way around it"

**BlackVCG** · 08-27-2003, 09:53 AM

Tom, I know exactly what everyone here is experiencing with their E-Mags. On stock E-Mags, it just depends on tolerances in the electronics and how sensitive the HES is and the output voltage to it frm the board.

I have one of the Morlock boards and the way it was programmed, the output to the HES is higher, so the "bounce spot" is much more prevalent. It's a spot that is probably .001" right before the actual fire point that if you pull the trigger slow enough the signal will bounce between the magnet and the HES at the rate you set the MROF. I have to set the overtravel of my trigger to "hide" it, but if you pull the trigger slow enough, it's there.

cgrieves · 08-27-2003, 10:06 AM

I see there are a lot of heated opinions on this subject, so to clarify I am not stating this is an inherent problem as some seem to think. Out of the many X-Mags on our team mine is the only one to exhibit this behaviour, so I am happy to experiment and eliminate the problem and then share my solution with the forum. I am just trying to gather a few ideas from the forum community before I pull things apart.

**AGD** · 08-27-2003, 10:34 AM

Cg,

So you are saying with NO AIR on the gun you can pull the trigger to a point where the solenoid clicks repeatedly?

If thats the case you should have Sosta replace your HE sensor. The sensors have built in hysterisis but they are not all identical. Some are shorter than others.

Then send that "bad" sensor to me I have people that will pay for it.

Thanks

AGD

cgrieves · 08-27-2003, 11:03 AM

Tom, those are the exact symptoms I get. I will source a replacement from Jackie/John and get the old one off to you asap. Thanks.

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