Using a pneumatic cylinder to reset bolt, i.e. no bolt spring idea

[ScatterPlot]

I just thought of this like 10 seconds ago and wanted to get it out for some ideas. I was reading about how Mags use buttloads of air since pushing the spring is so hard, and therefore crummy efficiency. What if you milled a small slit in the side of the body next to the bolt and put a little rod on the side of the bolt via a screw-in method so it could be removed to let you take out the bolt and mounted so that it would stick out and cycle when the gun fired. Now, take out the bolt spring and in its place add a pneumatic cylinder to the side of the gun connected to the rod on the bolt. That way, when you fired, the rod could be set to vent and the operating pressure that needed to be fired against the bolt spring could be greatly reduced. Then, after firing, the cylinder could actuate and push the bolt back in place. The cylinder would need a lot less air to reset the bolt than it takes for the bolt to push past the effects of the spring right now. A 3-way could be put in inside the grip frame under the sear, and it could get around the intellifeed switch by extending the trigger rod past the sear. A 3-way adds like zero force to act against, so there's still a light trigger pull, ala the ULT. A special-made foregrip regulator could be made that will split the air into two directions, one going directly to the valve and another going into the regulator for the pneumatic cylinder (note, the X-valve's air would NOT be regulated, just bypassed through the foregrip.
What you think?

PS- After a little thinking it might actually be possible to put the pneumatic cylinder into the rail itself. That could camouflague the entire setup, making the mag look no different and adding much improved efficiency, however it would give added complexity. However, since the body need not be sealed around the bolt area (I don't think, correct me if I'm wrong) then a simple turning of a small valve could disconnect the reg in the foregrip, putting in a bolt spring, and then an unscrewing of the little nub on the bolt and thus allow a "standard mode" incase of any failures with the reg or whatever, maybe you just want it to be standard for the time being.

Please tell me if this kind of thing has been done before or if there are any major fallacies in my design. I was thinking that the other cocker-mag hybrids were made so that the trigger moved a 3-way which controlled a rod connected to the sear.

What do you think? I'll try to put up some pics real fast here and show more what I'm trying to say.

[ScatterPlot]

OK, after actually looking inside the frame, there really isn't room to put the 3 way where I said. Instead, it could be mounted where the switch is now, and actuated by the 3-way rod passing through the 3-way body.

[ScatterPlot]

Sorry for the UBER crappy pics, all I have is paint and Photosuite 2nd edition SE, so it's almost worthless.

[ScatterPlot]

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[Fixion]

Not a bad idea, but it may be hard to get it working.

[redlaser666]

It is an interesting idea with a few flaws:
1. The bolt spring is what makes LV X work

2. If you remove the bolt spring you have to make the inside of the body smaller, since now the bolt has more room to wiggle sideways (it will most likely cause a powetube leak, or it could bind in the return)

[aut911]

it wont bind or caus a leak. And level ten still works. When you reduce the spring pressure by getting a weaker spring you can lower the pressure used to operate the mag. MAking it more efficient. My LVL-10 works just fine with a lighter than normal spring.

IN fact i am working on this very project as we speak.

i am in the process of finding a ram that i can mount in the front.

aut

[ScatterPlot]

Sweet, you gotta tell me when you're done. I think a process like this could be used to make a closed-bolt mag, which would 1- be fun and 2- driver cocker fans INSANE.

[AzrealDarkmoonZ]

Hate to burst your bubble but it probably will not work as described, since acting against the ram is 400psi and the ram only as at most 100 psi, now I suppose with a large enough ram it could be overcome, but we are talking a very large ram.

Az

[ScatterPlot]

But isn't that 400 psi the pressure WITH the bolt spring? The idea with the ram was to use it to decrease operating pressure. However I do see your point, how's it gonna work with 100 psi. Hmmmmmmmm.........



How about 2 rams? Bigger cylinder (possibly custom-made, you can get those for cheaper than name-brand cocker rams, and they can prolly handle a lot more pressure.


Also... The ID of the ram (on smaller ones) is about the same size as the ID of the power piston, right? If you could get the gun to work at as low as 200 psi, you could have a ram with twice the ID in area of the power piston, which would not be a very large ram, and boom ther you go, the ram is powered enough. X pressure over X area=.5X pressure over 2X area.

[ScatterPlot]

Wait a sec, just thought of something...


At no point would the ram push against anything but maybe SLIGHT compression of the chamber from just the power piston going in.

Here's the series and why the ram doesn't have to work hard.
Assume starting with the bolt cocked back with the dump chamber pressurized.

When you fire, the sear shuts the on/off off and releases the bolt, which empties the dump chamber through the barrel, firing the gun. The bolt moves to zero resistance, save inertia, friction, and other tiny forces. We'll assume that these very small forces are not at work for the moment.
So anyways, at this point in the cycle (which lasts an extremely short amount of time), the trigger is held back, the purge valve for the ram is held open, the on/off is off, and the bolt is foreward, not getting pushed against by anything. Upon the release of the trigger, the ram activates, pushing the bolt back to be recocked and held back by the SEAR, not the ram. The on/off is opened, and the dump chamber fills. Back to square one again. At no point in that does the ram push against any force, other than the really tiny ones.

In defense of myself, I realize that the tiny forces involved do indeed have an effect on the cycling of a gun. I did not include them in the description above, since I was talking about much higher (in comparison) forces, like in the 100-400 range. If there's any problem with that, please LMK and I'll fix it.

[nippinout]

Originally posted by AzrealDarkmoonZ
Hate to burst your bubble but it probably will not work as described, since acting against the ram is 400psi and the ram only as at most 100 psi, now I suppose with a large enough ram it could be overcome, but we are talking a very large ram.

Az

That 400psi is only working on a very small surface area.

[ScatterPlot]

I know the 400 is over a very small area, however the same is true for the ram.

[Toranaga]

Just wanted to say that i had almost an exactly identical idea to this, but using a ram on the front, connected to a rod, with special "mountains" (in it tohold back the bolt. This rod would go in place of , lets say the rod used in a pump mag.
I had a pretty detailed drawing, but threw it away since i have no way of making this.

Just want to throw in my support, also, doesn't the paintball on recieve 65 psi from the bolt, so wouldn't that be all you had to deal with, not with the full 400?

[sneakyhacker420]

sounds alot like a pneumatic version of a pump mag to me...