Breech Turbulance and how it relates to "ACCURACY" AGD et al opinions please...

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  • Jack & Coke
    TUNAMAX No. 1
    • Jul 2002
    • 2644

    #1

    Breech Turbulance and how it relates to "ACCURACY" AGD et al opinions please...

    This one is for Tom and his Army.

    From: http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.p...hreadid=342328

    Jack Rice, co-creator of the Alien paintball gun, claims that the DM4 does not shoot as ultra flat and as ultra accurate as the original Matrix. He believes that since the air path has to make many 90 degree bends, and jump through holes, that it creates too much chamber turbulance - affecting the DM4's accuracy.

    Originally posted by Jack Rice


    ...new bolt doesn't give the same ultra flat ultra accurate shot original Matix gave. If you feel ball to barrel match is everthing then OK. But here's another example of chamber turbulance affecting accuracy.

    The original Trix had the stored air right behind the bolt/spindle. A little in/out movement around the top hat then straight down the bolt through the venturi, a real nice path.

    But they wanted the bolt smaller. Now the air has to make a right turn through those holes on the edges and another right turn to go down the bolt.

    Now it's just pressure behind the ball, no direction, and direction is the one thing Trix had, don't kid yourself, Mag has it too, the Air is behind the ball. It's not that "Quality alway shoots straight" it's that straighter air shoots straight...

    We've had a pretty much "civil" discussion, considering the flaming nature PBN has. One of the posters there brought up an nice idea...

    [b]

    Originally posted by Dave
    I'm confused this is PBnation and this debate is civil and thought provoking, all we need now is Tom Kaye and Bill Mills dropping knowledge and it's lights out.

    [b]
    GTRsi brought this to attention and now I'm curious as well...

    Tom and Bill, what's your take on "chamber turbulance" and "accuracy"?

    AO Army opinions are welcomed as well...

  • cledford
    Registered User
    • Feb 2001
    • 1386

    #2
    Check out Tom's opinions on air flow and paths in deep blue...

    Named after the IBM super computer, Deep Blue is headed by Tom Kaye, president of AGD. This forum is open to the public, but only high end technical subjects are allowed. If your posts don't cut the mustard they will be moved.


    Not sure it relates to "ultra flat shooting" which we all know is a joke - but at least it is some useful info...

    -Calvin
    From a poster at PB Nation:

    ""Jim, back to your cave. Bob Long is on the batphone..."

    MY FEEDBACK

    Comment

    • Jack & Coke
      TUNAMAX No. 1
      • Jul 2002
      • 2644

      #3
      Thanks for the link cledford!

      That thread was a good one to read... but Tom talks about flow paths, bends, and turns, as they relate to "efficiency".

      I wonder what his take is how these things affect "accuracy"...

      thanks again

      Comment

      • Cryer
        Paintball is over.
        • Nov 2002
        • 4105

        #4
        Pssh!

        Its all in the elves!


        Honestly, I don't see how it could effect the path of the ball enough to make a difference.

        Team Sandbaggers.
        -We own j00 all.-

        Comment

        • SlartyBartFast
          The Flying Scotsman
          • Jun 2002
          • 2940

          #5
          I'd say the whole thread, like so many others, is pure wasted electrons and speculation unless you have data to back up the performance of the original matrix and the reworked one.

          Considering the rapid expulsion and expansion of gas I doubt any measurable effect results from turbulence induced by the flow path before the air exits the face of the bolt.

          No matter what the path before, all those little molecules have to spread out to fill and expand in the space behind the paintball.

          Comment

          • AGD
            The man from AGD

            • Oct 2000
            • 5916

            #6
            Sorry but there is no connection between accuracy and bolt air flow. Accuracy is a function of airflow around the ball AFTER it leaves the barrel. There is a long thread in Deep Blue called Paintball Spin Physics if you want the facts.

            AGD
            sigpic

            Comment

            • Jack & Coke
              TUNAMAX No. 1
              • Jul 2002
              • 2644

              #7
              Thanks Tom!

              You da man!

              Comment

              • gtrsi
                Automag?
                • Dec 2001
                • 5786

                #8
                Originally posted by Jack & Coke
                Thanks Tom!

                You da man!
                FOR SALE
                on/off, sear, PROConnect
                AGD back bottle asa, laser logo

                Comment

                • Jack & Coke
                  TUNAMAX No. 1
                  • Jul 2002
                  • 2644

                  #9
                  Originally posted by gtrsi
                  I think this was addressed here: http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...highlight=flow

                  Comment

                  • Miscue
                    Super Moderator

                    • Oct 2000
                    • 7105

                    #10
                    Let's get thems yonder pitch forks 'n torches ya'll! YEEEE HHAAAAAAWWWW!

                    Comment

                    • wobbles82
                      To The 5
                      • Jan 2003
                      • 604

                      #11
                      No wonder the Alien isn't going to sell, . Anyways, in my opinion we should really all consider the one most incrediblest most importantest thing..kick/recoil/blowback, correct whichever form you want but they all make the gun move. The original Matrix had ...almost 0 kickback, thus making its streams very accurate. Keely Watson's dad informed me at Miami that one of the players using the DM4 noted it had a bit more kick than the original, but thats just what he said. I think somebody should really compare the kick of the two, as the air flow really seems like dismal reasoning.
                      2 da k da 2 Timmah.

                      Oh..it shoots da 620:1 .No problemo.

                      Comment

                      • gtrsi
                        Automag?
                        • Dec 2001
                        • 5786

                        #12
                        Originally posted by gtrsi


                        on HOW much the flow is obstructed and if that has any affect on efficiency.

                        thanks Jack,
                        I made a quick read of it. Gee now I am only 1 year behind Tom, lol.
                        FOR SALE
                        on/off, sear, PROConnect
                        AGD back bottle asa, laser logo

                        Comment

                        • DiRTyBuNNy
                          Registered User
                          • Sep 2001
                          • 4854

                          #13
                          Originally posted by wobbles82
                          No wonder the Alien isn't going to sell, . Anyways, in my opinion we should really all consider the one most incrediblest most importantest thing..kick/recoil/blowback, correct whichever form you want but they all make the gun move. The original Matrix had ...almost 0 kickback, thus making its streams very accurate. Keely Watson's dad informed me at Miami that one of the players using the DM4 noted it had a bit more kick than the original, but thats just what he said. I think somebody should really compare the kick of the two, as the air flow really seems like dismal reasoning.
                          I'm not an engineer but couldn't the kick have been a direct result of running the marker at a higher pressure to gain a bit more efficiency?
                          Dirty Clothes for Dirty Ballers!

                          Comment

                          • Bubonic Plauge
                            Magasaurus Rex
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 96

                            #14
                            Like Tom said there is an awesome link in Deep Blue about this. Its all about the "vortex" of air around the ball after if leaves. What I thought was cool and took out was that the "M" effect created by flatlines is not great enough to stop the vortex, yet, I think. Old news anyways =)

                            Comment

                            • Miscue
                              Super Moderator

                              • Oct 2000
                              • 7105

                              #15
                              I find it annoying when people say you don't accept what they have to say because you are not being open-minded... especially when what information they have to present would not meet minimum requirements for the entry of a grade school science fair project.

                              Comment

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