sounds like you just need a group of players that are fun to play with, more then you need a classic marker rule. on any given rec day around here there is everything from SC pumps to the newest and fastest.Originally Posted by OPBN
sounds like you just need a group of players that are fun to play with, more then you need a classic marker rule. on any given rec day around here there is everything from SC pumps to the newest and fastest.Originally Posted by OPBN
I remember that, but it was for bounce more than bps.Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
Except for the Automag in front, its usually the man behind the equipment that counts.
Okay I am not siding with either sides of any of this ROF loopholes thing (although Qloaders are not difficult and unfair!!) but what about this. You alert everyone ahead of time that it is CO2 only. Bam. Some of you may not like it but if you look at it, it would be the easiest and simplest way to keep down ROF and amount of paint in the air. And this wouldn't be difficult because I hope that most of us still have our old CO2 valves lying around somewhere. and if not they are very cheap. When using CO2 there is no walking the trigger, there is no RT effect and most especially there is some shoot-down depending on whether you changed up the trigger pull to be insanely light on a CO2 valve.
This would be great in my point of view as not everyone is being forced to use a rental marker and they still get to keep their custom gear. I will never use a rental as whenever I walk around with one I feel exposed and out in the open, I feel uncomfortable for some reason.
Benifits
-No high ROF
-Performance playing field is largely evened out
-Does not ban any equipment except for HPA tanks.
Downsides
-No high ROF
-You cant run a slaughterhouse
Just thought to express my point of view although I am nearly the heavy gunner you described. I carry almost a case of paint on me (1600 shots) on field with a 90/45 1100 psi output. But I am not rolling in $$$. I am able to easily control my ROF and I dont use it often. I never buy more than a case a day (exceptions on big games) and my technological abilities do not come without a downside. My vest is not exactly lightweight as I carry 15 Qpods in it (using Q is heavier if you use a lot of them) and quite a few more 140 pods for my friends as I have been dubbed the human pack mule I carry all of this because I enjoy staying out in the field as long as possible and not having to worry about the efficiency of my equipment holding me back. Not to spray and pray on rental users.
I wasnt.Originally Posted by Lohman446
you can run co2 in most any gun without issue.Originally Posted by Freedy500
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0M6wM0KHWNM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_jKj...watch_response
Not X-valves though. And I was pretty sure that would cause damage to your marker unless if it is made mainly for CO2 or else the electronics and operation of it would get damaged. I am pretty sure but would not mind if corrected.Originally Posted by cockerpunk
Until I find out otherwise I would say feel free to use CO2 and ruin your high end electro.
No I’m not. Go ahead and bring it.Originally Posted by Justus
And I think it will limit the ROF. Tune hasn’t changed. Without RT (and that was a long a standing rule, back when there literally was nothing but mech available in the first place), I believe it works.Originally Posted by Justus
It takes a certain amount of work to get through that “loophole” if you want to call it that. And if they go through that, I would actually be OK with it. They have to expend non-negligible effort to get there and to actually make it work, as opposed to just talking about it in the forums or making “shooting videos”. I mean, seriously, how many Q-Loaded pneumags are there running around out in the wild?
Also I think you should let the Tippmann players speak for themselves. Are you one of them?
Funny, you just described normal recball.Originally Posted by Justus
You still play recball, right? Even at the risk of someone bringing an electro or an excessively bouncing RT?
Oh, wait, you’re one of the guys that brings those kinds of guns to recball...
Hrm.
You mean like normal recball?Originally Posted by Justus
I think that this thread is evidence that it doesn’t need to be taken any further. The rules as I would envision them are working as intended.
And that’s fine too. If you want to have an all standardized gun game, that’s fine. Knock yourself out. We’ve actually talked about doing that at our field as well. In fact I played with a Tippmann with a shake and bake in just normal open rec play earlier this year (field owner was curious to see how I would play without my normal marker). Then I did it again with a BT-4 with Prophecy (and I think I would have been better off with a shake and bake on that one) against a bunch of electros because a friend and I had kind of a debate going.Originally Posted by Justus
I didn’t get “pasted” or feel cheated, even against electros on the airball field. I took 1 hit to the hopper because I’m not used to hoppers. I forgot to turn on the hopper another game (because I’m not used to hoppers), and then the BT-4 finally just up and died on one game. No pasting or cheating, I just hated that gun. I didn't hate the fact that the others were using electros.
I can’t tell you to not have a simple rule like that because it’s perfectly fine. You can have that rule if you want. I’m not saying you can’t. If you want your own game with your own rules, feel free to do so. I’d be happy to play that game too.Originally Posted by Justus
This one’s easy.Originally Posted by Justus
The goal is to see how well people play without batteries or RT triggers. Therefore, the rule is to not allow batteries or RT triggers.
How’s that?
Look, if you don’t get it, that’s fine, don’t worry about it. You don’t have to play. Play an electro/ROF/paint limited game if you like. I think some of the old schoolers get it, and some of the Rampy McReactivetriggersteinovichs won’t and will stay away. No harm, no foul.
I think the biggest limiting factor for turnout isn’t the fear of a Q-Loaded Rainbow Laser Shooting Mech Pneumag Unicorn, it’s what athomas mentioned -- there are a lot of players that indeed sink everything into their electros and just don’t have enough scratch to find a good mech that they would actually like. Sure, they could pick up a cheap crappy mech, but between playing with a crappy mech and not playing at all, they’d probably sooner not play at all, especially if normal play is available to them anyways. I know quite a few players like this. And I can’t blame them.
Last edited by GoatBoy; 11-08-2012 at 07:49 PM.
"Accuracy by aiming."
Definitely not on the A-Team.
you were already corrected in the post you were responding to. you can, if you want to, run co2 through most if not all current high end guns, with less then 100 bucks in parts, if not bone stock already.Originally Posted by Freedy500
Well nevermind then. Dang I thought I had a good idea If I was right then it would have been perfect and easy to enforce. Worth a shot. I gotta keep up with electro'sOriginally Posted by cockerpunk
It started off as simply "mech only", with no batteries even for the hopper. When I pointed out that a qloaded X-valve Mag would still have an absurdly high rate of fire (and even posted a video to prove it), you changed the rules to include "no excessively reactive trigger". I've got a pneumag in the works, just need the time and cash to put together the remaining parts. They're really not as uncommon as you make them out to be. Sure, qloaders are uncommon right now, but that's because people have always been free to use battery-powered hoppers that are much easier to set up and use. But my point is that if you create a game whereby a certain set of equipment has the advantage, then people will build it as it becomes their priority. As that happens, I can foresee another rule revision to exclude spring loaded or pneumatic hoppers and triggers. Otherwise, the rules really have no purpose if the goal is to limit ROF.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
So the goal did change. First it was mech only to limit ROF. Now it's to simply play without batteries or RT triggers.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
You want to have a game where the only purpose is to play without batteries and RT triggers, that's fine. I'm just pointing out the pitfalls and asking the question, "with xyz setup, what's actually changed about the gameplay?" If nothing... then what's the point of telling someone else what they can or can't play with?
I run a field where the rentals are shake & bake Alpha Blacks, and I ran an A5 marker before I got into Mags. I still have a 98 Custom in my gearbag as a backup/loaner, and some games I'll roll out with nothing but my TPX. So, yeah, I kinda am one of them.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
Yeah, I play recball. Try to at least monthly. There's usually a pretty good mix of modern electros, RT's and blowbacks. Some people use pumps, others use ramping - and it's all by choice, not by any certain set of rules. If I use my ETac rather than my pump or TPX, I have it set at 10 to 12 bps limit, semi auto, and I honestly don't shoot any faster than the blowbacks - primarily because I've never been good at walking the trigger and refuse to use ramping. Because I run a field it's my first priority to make sure the walk-ons have fun and are excited about returning to play again. If you're trying to insinuate that I shoot ropes on people with rental markers simply because I have the possibility of a ROF advantage, think again.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
And no, when I warned about the huge playing-field gap that will result from your proposed rules, I wasn't describing anything remotely like recball, which has players at both extremes and also dispersed throughout the middle of the ROF spectrum because they all have the ability to choose what equipment setups they want to use.
Yeah, of course this is a good point, aside from the implication that a pneumag is like a unicorn. I mean, c'mon, you can buy a bolt-on sleeper frame pretty easily if you just look in the BST from time to time. And you don't even need a pneumag. A finely tuned ULT is darn near walkable by itself. But, I digress. What athomas said ties right in with my point - if the purpose is to limit the ROF, then just allow people to limit their ROF and use their desired equipment. You'll get your gameplay change without prohibiting people from using the equipment that they prefer and have invested in.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
I don't "want my own game", I'm simply trying to further the discussion on some possible alternate game formats and what I believe will work, and what I believe will ultimately not do enough to make any noticeable difference.Originally Posted by GoatBoy
Last edited by Justus; 11-09-2012 at 01:50 AM.
AKA, IIRC, said that an anti-siphon CO2 tank attached to a Palmers stabilizer was just acceptable to use in a Viking. This is why you have to actually write rules to accomplish what you mean to accomplish because otherwise someone will "side step" what you were trying to do with a creative solution. I would guess the electro-Blazer would have no issueOriginally Posted by Freedy500
For the record the old PSP and NPPL rules required that loaders have some gravity portion in them - the warp was questionable if it met the rules requirements. For some reason the HALO was given a pass.
Last edited by Lohman446; 11-09-2012 at 11:21 AM.
"Unless someone like you cares a whole awful lot, nothing is going to get better. Its not" - Dr Suess
damn loop-holes
That’s my point. The number of Q-Loaded pneumags out running in the wild, as far as I can tell, is currently: 0.5. The half of one that you haven’t even finished yet. It will take some amount of tinkering and tweaking, and I’m betting when you field that thing, it won’t make that much a difference because there is a certain amount of *operator skill* that’s still necessary to make it work out in-game.Originally Posted by Justus
If I were running the game, I’d be all for you bringing that gun.
Once you’ve finished it.
Yes, this “started off as mech only”. Mech only means without batteries. Goal didn’t change. Goal started out as: mech only, and it ended up as: mech only. There are some effects that I’ve tried to outline, but they’re not sinking in so it’s simplest to say: mech only means no batteries. How I am perceived as vacillating, I have no idea. Mech only. Real simple.Originally Posted by Justus
The non-bouncing RT rule has been in place for a long, long time. I find it shameful that people actually have to be reminded of it. The old timers around here remember it. Shameful.
And that’s part of the problem. You perceive zero change in gameplay. And I think that is simply a reflection of the way you play. And it’s not something someone else will be able to explain to you.Originally Posted by Justus
Great, excellent. So as one of these operators, do you personally feel pasted/cheated when you step out into a game where someone else has an overwhelming advantage? If not, why would you think someone else would feel the same way?Originally Posted by Justus
There’s that *operator skill* component I keep referring to. If you can’t walk an electro, good luck successfully walking a pneu. Please, bring forth the Q-Loaded pneumag for all to witness, in-game.Originally Posted by Justus
Once you’ve finished it.
Then... why... would you... post... a video of yourself actually doing so?Originally Posted by Justus
And if you wouldn’t do it (despite video evidence), why would you assume someone else would?
I mean, in the context where bunch of guys are going, “Hey, let’s all switch to mech and play a few games”, whipping out a video of you hunkered in the back of what appears to be a rec game ripping a string into a bunch of nothing isn’t exactly a highlight. There’s just something very … I don’t even know what the right word for this is.
If I had a video of myself doing that, I would quietly bury it somewhere where nobody would ever find it.
So the huge gap in a mech-only game would be larger than the huge gap in a recball game where everything else is allowed.Originally Posted by Justus
Uhh....
You are absolutely right! You sure can! Show us how damn near overpowering a damn near walkable ULT is, in game.Originally Posted by Justus
Once you’ve finished it.
Great, you’ve stated your *beliefs*.Originally Posted by Justus
Now let’s validate them.
Meh, the rants are getting too long and off focus. Edited this post out in an effort to stop the landslide. Do whatever you feel will work, GoatBoy, and good luck with it. I sincerely hope people will end up playing within the spirit of your proposed rules.
Last edited by Justus; 11-09-2012 at 11:34 PM.
wow
How do you enforce a ROF cap on a mechanical marker? Just because player A can get it to do 15BPS does not mean player B or the ref has a chance. I think this is a major flaw in your reasoningOriginally Posted by Justus
Last edited by Lohman446; 11-09-2012 at 07:19 PM.
Yeah, enforcement of the rule is an issue that would need to be hammered out. How do they enforce the ROF cap in PSP tournaments? I'd say start there, and work something out.Originally Posted by Lohman446
But the issue of enforcement isn't a major flaw in my reasoning, because it's already being done (see the aforementioned PSP tournament example). A flaw in the reasoning would have to be something that a player could legally exploit to gain an advantage.
Yeah man. I feel ya.Originally Posted by BTAutoMag
Last edited by Justus; 11-09-2012 at 11:35 PM.
wow. And I thought my rants could get long. Sorry I am just giving up on this thread. To much to read and I am very lazy
The major difference is that legally set PSP ramping markers the ROF can be attained by virtually anyone. So a ref can readily check it. In a mech there is no software limiting it so a player may attain ROF a ref is not able to duplicate. Or a piano playing ref might disqualify every marker handed him.Originally Posted by Justus
In NPPL back when the RT came out, they used adjustable tank regs and NPPL limited them to 600psi input. That pretty much took care of crazy RT bounce.
I have nothing good to put here...........
Yeah, but I said to just make a rule limiting ROF, not make a mech-only rule. Maybe this means that mechs aren't allowed since there's no way of limiting the ROF?Originally Posted by Lohman446
Or, because there's no way of limiting the ROF on a mech, go ahead and allow it but disallow trigger bounce and also require mechs to have a certain trigger pull weight to be classified as legal. It's not a perfect rule, but probably better than eliminating all mech-only markers.
Any time the goal is to limit ROF, there's going to need to be multiple rules to achieve that and still allow the widest array of equipment choices. And this enforcement problem actually illustrates my point better, too - if the goal is to limit the ROF, then eliminating electros from participation is wholly unnecessary because it's actually easier to limit the ROF on an electro than it is a mech.
And probably most Automags. None of my Mags will even operate that low.Originally Posted by Shane-O-Mac
Haven't you just effectively "created" the tournaments that are readily available then?Originally Posted by Justus
If I want to go to an electro ROF limited tournament there are a tremendous amount to pick from.
I'm now lost to what your point was
My point was that the idea of going "mech only" as a way to really limit down the ROF is seriously flawed. A simply "mech only" rule will not work to limit the ROF. If you want to honestly limit the ROF, then it's actually much easier to do with electros.Originally Posted by Lohman446
As for the ample amounts of tournaments that are already available, I was thinking that the goal was to get the ROF down lower than 12.5 bps with ramping. Make the rule 8 bps, no ramping. Make it whatever you want. Just don't think that having a "mech only" rule will solve the problem of ROF.
I guess when you get down to it, my point was to not have a silver bullet answer; it was to point out the problem with the "mech only" proposition. I have never been a proponent of anything other than saying "that (mech only) won't work to meet the goal (lower ROF)."
-------------------------
EDIT: When looking back over the thread, here's where I think it started:
My response: "Yeah, I agree"Originally Posted by Lohman446
My response: "No, it won't"Originally Posted by GoatBoy
Honestly i think this is a lot easier to solve than you all make it out to be. Eliminate ramping. electro mech makes no difference one pull one fire. I have no issue with high rates of fire as long as it is accomplished by player skill not the programing on the guns bored. And pretty much all electros have a uncapped or capped semi auto mode.
The ideal of limited ammo i feel is intriguing as well hopper ball would offer a very different style/tactics of play.
And i also understand the premis of a all mech game for pure nostalgia point. But with guns like the newly coming GOG Enmey, and Tippmans Crossover (without a batt in mech mode), or the Tippmann Phenom i think you would not see the nostalgia you looking for. A best bet would be a limit on year of manufacture.
Another game i would love to see is just a big game cocker vs mag game.
I still play pump almost every time i play regardless who i playing against and what they shooting. I get shot out more than some but i still get out get a few eliminations and have a blast.
Last edited by Bear_Claw; 11-12-2012 at 03:02 PM.
AGD 68 Automag, Azodin KP2, Sheridan PGP2, Tippmann Pro/Carbine, Crossover XVR, SL-68II, and TiPX.
I think we just got turned around somewhere in the discussion. I think if we are attempting to limit paint instituting a paint limit (per player, per team, per tournament, per game, whatever) would be a lot easier (especially to enforce) then instituting a ROF cap.Originally Posted by Justus
That's very true and I agree it would be much easier. It would probably even have the total effect of toning down the overall ROF on each game, as teams have to deal with the strategy of making most of their shots count for something. Of course, that's just a nice byproduct and not necessarily a goal, which makes the enforcement issue (when it comes to ROF) go away.Originally Posted by Lohman446
What would it take to get the gameplay level changed? An average of 200 rounds per player, distributed among a team however they feel necessary? That would be like a souped-up version of hopperball.
200, 400, 600? I'm not sure. I don't think we have to go down to the point of a single hoppers worth per player (be interesting though to see teams exploit that by giving the front guys 20 rounds or something freeing up a pod for the back players).Originally Posted by Justus
I don't know at what number it would start to influence game play but it would be something worth toying with. When I used to play tournaments I shot very little paint compared to others but going out with less than two pods made me feel like I was going to run out at any moment (though I seldom used the second one). This was in the era of a 15BPS ROF cap. Some of my back players would carry a case or very close to it.
Last edited by Lohman446; 11-12-2012 at 04:37 PM.
I played in a 3-man benefit tourney a few weeks back, using a high-cap Rotor and carrying 4 pods. After the first game I shucked the pods and just went out with a full hopper each time. Never ran out of paint. But, I didn't sit in back holding a lane the whole time either, I pushed up and only shot when attempting to get an elimination or keep a head down for movement.Originally Posted by Lohman446
It's an interesting concept. And I'd bet it works a whole lot differently in a woodsball game (which is 95% what I play). As a matter of fact, if it were in a woodsball game I'd be tempted to just go mag-fed with my TPX and let teammates provide the suppressive fire.