G-Force/PTP patent issue?

[punkncat]

When playing Devil's Advocate the most important part is knowing how far to push the issue and having viable retorts. You are treading dangerously close to the precipice of being irrelevant since you keep using the same vague replies to everyone's arguments. It's actually quite sad, if you ask me.

I will keep that in mind.....

I suppose it was the apparent lack of reading those "same vague replies" that made similarly posted arguments keep cropping up.

But hey if pity is all you can offer....

[TnDeathInc]

Lol, I find this reply funny. Is it that you (all) care so much that I am "stirring things up" as you put it, or the fact that you fear that you might be getting a product that came to market through less than honorable avenues?
Could it be that your desire to get the product at any cost or means distorts your judgement?

I am not making any assertions based on any truth that I know over any one else. My entire contention is based on a rumor that when thought about from A point of view and considered with other information easily found concerning PTP makes for what could seem like a shady situation. Anyone can CLAIM anything they like. Heck I can claim I have a patent for this and until someone sues me I can do what I like, correct? And on the same note I am free to make any speculation I like until such time as proof/truth comes along. I imagine that it will soon enough one way or the other.

It was mentioned that G-Force has had a pneu framed marker on the market. Could it also be speculated that PTP has no real claim for their patent?
And of course as was mentioned it could be that the products differ enough to truly be different patents that do not infringe. In my mind that would bring implications as to how another blanket patent issue affecting our market has been so influential. I guess as was alluded to that it all comes down to who has the best lawyers.....

I am obviously not the ONLY person who is interested in knowing, but apparently the only one who "sacked up" (or was stupid)enough to ask.

Thanks TN, as always.

But as a company head, would you take the time to answer pot shots from someone named pukincat that hasnt even signed up or spend the time putting out what was promised, heck i mean i have gotten one email saying my frame is ordered and due to be shipped. Have i sent him questions, yes were all answered? no, is he busy ? yes? I particularly prefer him to work on putting the stuff out and not defending his product. Do you see the patent blocking others, when admittedly others have similar patents, its not like its a SP patent where all future life of paintball will be sucked dry. I mean we all know SP can come in and retro reverse a patent to make garf pay royalties on previously sold models.

[nevtangle]

I still contend that the only reason so many of you are getting up in arms so much about it is that you desire, even more than knowing, to have a frame, ANY frame. If PTP has released it first y'all would be clammering for it. It wouldn't matter where it came from or even if it WERE legitimate.

You make it sound like it's the consumers moral obligation to find out if it's legitimate or not. It's not! It doesn't matter. Sure, you would like to know the details on the patents in question, but don't cast judgment on others who want a frame that is long over due. Of course people would have bought a frame that was produced by someone else. But there wasn't, and props to G-Force for having the balls to come out and make it happen.

[punkncat]

But as a company head, would you take the time to answer pot shots from someone named pukincat that hasnt even signed up or spend the time putting out what was promised, heck i mean i have gotten one email saying my frame is ordered and due to be shipped. Have i sent him questions, yes were all answered? no, is he busy ? yes? I particularly prefer him to work on putting the stuff out and not defending his product. Do you see the patent blocking others, when admittedly others have similar patents, its not like its a SP patent where all future life of paintball will be sucked dry. I mean we all know SP can come in and retro reverse a patent to make garf pay royalties on previously sold models.

Well I suppose that thats open to interpretation. Could the guy have taken three seconds more than the time it took him to be short to be a bit more personable? sure

Other than the cut at me, which takes no psychologist training to see as an obvious indication that I struck a nerve....I tend to agree with you on most other points.

Hope, as we have discussed before, that you aren't taking this personal there Tn....?

[nmib]

Cant we all just get along and build our own pneumags with off the self parts and a freaking dremel?

[Looper]

There are only two things I need to know to sleep at night... One, I have a G-Force Frame on order and Two, http://www.google.com/patents?id=4s1...BAJ&dq=7210473

Nuf Sed

[punkncat]

There are only two things I need to know to sleep at night... One, I have a G-Force Frame on order and Two, http://www.google.com/patents?id=4s1...J&dq=7,210,473

Nuf Sed

Awright, so this is the patent that G-Force holds.

Now does anyone have a link to the patent that PTP holds?

[ThePixelGuru]

To be completly honest, his blowing me off and the later deletion of my original question, along with other things I have read around made me think and speculate on the possibility. Some of those points have already been addressed.

I still contend that the only reason so many of you are getting up in arms so much about it is that you desire, even more than knowing, to have a frame, ANY frame. If PTP has released it first y'all would be clammering for it. It wouldn't matter where it came from or even if it WERE legitimate.

As I said before, he blew you off because he doesn't have anything to discuss with you. Garf has absolutely no obligation to discuss the issue with you, and it would be a terrible business move to do so. The only way he would have a responsibility to discuss patent issues would be if suit was brought against him, and then he'd only have to discuss it with the guy who brought the suit. Besides, you can't suspect someone and then use his reaction as basis for your suspicions. Cause and effect doesn't work that way, buddy.

Now, kindly provide the link to said "rumors," or we'll continue to regard this thread as shenanigans. It's totally unacceptable to post rumors and refuse to divulge sources for no reason other than that you don't feel like it. Also, if you really want to know the patent issues, look 'em up. It's all public and all online, compare PTP's patent to G-Force's patent. If you want to be taken seriously, have a reason to cast doubt on these things. Don't cast doubt and expect reason to follow, and don't expect explanations and handouts from these companies; do your own homework.

[RogueFactor]

Here is a little help for you punkcat:

(http://www.automags.org/forums/showp...4&postcount=23)

I understand the frustration - believe me, there's more of it over here than over there.

However, I don't think you guys are getting the point.


What's going to be enforced? Everything is going to be enforced. Come on. You guys know you've got to actively protect your IP if you want to keep it.

What's the result of the arbitration going to be? Can't say - but keep tuned in.

[RogueFactor]

There's more than one way to make a pneumatic trigger, and as such there can be more than one patent for a pneumatic trigger.

Well, you must have missed it when rabidchihauhau(the guy who helped write the patent for PTP) stated:

Let me clarify and respond to the PTP email and a couple of posts prior:

First - the PTP patents are not just for MAGs - they're for pneumatic triggers. A MINIMUM of three operational systems that this patent can be applied to are described directly in the patents - these include double-stack and in-line semi-auto systems (spyder type, tippmann type) captured bolt style (mag type) and autococking systems (cocker type).

Second - drop in kits still infringe on the patent and, I know you guys are gonna get up in arms over this one - but it also covers people building them for their own use. Patents give you the right to EXCLUDE others from (making, distributing, importing, etc). The exclusion is not limited to commercial applications, it covers everything.

Finally - the response from PTP: one of the major delays in getting these systems onto the market was a licensing deal made by PTP with a third party (quite capable of getting it out onto the market in a number of different applications). They essentially chose to sit on it.

PTP believed (because of the nature of the licensing agreement) that making this deal was the fastest and most effective means of getting the p-trigger system out onto the market AND had set things up so that once things were clicking, a whole variety of other p-trigger applications would be introduced, including one for mags. This deal would have made it possible for PTP to bring such things to market quickly and cost-effectively, while at the same time protecting its IP interests IN A MANNER THAT DID NOT NEGATIVELY IMPACT anyone else.

Much of what has gone on behind the scenes had to remain behind the scenes (and still does) because of various confidentiality agreements and on-going legal issues. It has pained the folks at PTP tremendously to know that they were doing the right thing (setting things up so that obtaining P-trigger technology would be reltively easy and costs would be competitive for end-users and potential licensees both) while not being able to explain the issues and not really being able to offer meaningful answers to those who had legitimate questions.

Sometimes this is what happens when you try to do the right thing. But at least now a little of the behind the scenes info has come to light and you can see that its not been PTP that was delaying.

[RogueFactor]

http://www.automags.org/forums/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=2413145

Ok.

it is my opinion that the G-Force patent is covered by the PTP patent claims. What's not covered by the PTP patent is certainly covered by the DW patent and anything else that might have slipped through the cracks is covered by all the so-called PRIOR ART some of you people keep on bringing up.

[RogueFactor]

There ya go punkcat, there is some of the BLAH BLAH BLAH that some people wanted.

Wasnt too hard to find. Some of it was in a post about 5 down. Some others required a simple search. Sorry, I didnt mean to do their homework for them.

But as you originally quoted..."Dont count your chickens just yet..."

Hope this helped

[Smoothice]

As I recall rogue. You had some pretty strong words for rabid. Are you now stating what he says is all true?

http://www.automags.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2457547&postcount=24

[punkncat]

As I said before, he blew you off because he doesn't have anything to discuss with you. Garf has absolutely no obligation to discuss the issue with you, and it would be a terrible business move to do so. The only way he would have a responsibility to discuss patent issues would be if suit was brought against him, and then he'd only have to discuss it with the guy who brought the suit. Besides, you can't suspect someone and then use his reaction as basis for your suspicions. Cause and effect doesn't work that way, buddy.

Now, kindly provide the link to said "rumors," or we'll continue to regard this thread as shenanigans. It's totally unacceptable to post rumors and refuse to divulge sources for no reason other than that you don't feel like it. Also, if you really want to know the patent issues, look 'em up. It's all public and all online, compare PTP's patent to G-Force's patent. If you want to be taken seriously, have a reason to cast doubt on these things. Don't cast doubt and expect reason to follow, and don't expect explanations and handouts from these companies; do your own homework.

Many different marker makes offer a pneumatic frame. A great deal of people have the means to make a pnue frame in the basement and how hard would it be to take that into production? Especially considering the number of people on THIS forum alone that work for or do milling and pnuematic work. I asked in order to shed a bit of light on my own curiousity. Heck before I started this thread I didn't even know that G-Force was an actual pre existing paintball company. Shame on me for not knowing....I am no lawyer, the implications that have been brought up for them even answering the thread never even occurred to me.

Searching on pneu frames only raises more questions for me. There is info that Colin at DW came up with the first one. I can only assume that that was for mags? Google has pages and pages of info about pneumatic frame patents and pieces and parts of them.
If I knew where to find the patent that PTP holds I wouldn't have asked if someone had a link.

[punkncat]

Thanks Rogue.

I didn't want to post my original source as there has recently been some drama go on in between, well most of us know about that.
When I read that, I started doing some digging around on here and on the legion and 68 cal. The question seemed really obvious and I wondered why no one had asked yet.

I am obviously not as eloquent as I would like to be, and am glad that you opted to throw me a lifeline.