Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!

[spydervenom]

yeah.
1 good thing though...this might make bobby try and make an inexpensive gun.

[adam shannon]

NPS sells more than just guns on their sites and stores like 888 paintball...although they will never admit they own it. they make the intimidator...but they prolly make a fraction of their income from it.

the true story is probably that since they sell tons of SP stuff they were most likely offered a sweatheart deal..not the mil plus $75 a gun that anybody else would have to pay. why, because they do sell tons of SP stuff SP would be stupid to hold a major retailer of their stuff for ransom.

and a bigger reason is to make it look to the industry that a major corp folded so everybody else should also. and if NPS recognizes SP's patent it may add weight to their claim even if it might just be smoke and mirrors.

after all who has ever knows gino to be the first to cave to anybody...or maybe snakes just slither together.

[f3rr3+]

Originally posted by Steeratt
I will not even worry then. If they win lawsuits, then the patent was probably valid. I understand that some developers chose not to patent ideas in the early days of paintball, but its just common sense that as paintball becomes more mainstream, and the industry grows, then normal business practices, i.e. patents, will be used.

Hell, I spent $40 for a friggin clamping feedneck. If the patent increases the cost a marker a few bucks, I'll pay. Sure, id rather not, but I like the game too much not to pay.

i wish i could say the same but not all of us have the money to "just pay it"

[Steelrat]

Let me ask a few questions:

-Does anyone know if Smart Parts is planning to sue every maker? I'm talking hard facts, not the vague ramblings of some people. Saying that the patent might impede progress is impossible to guage without knowing what SP's intent is. After all,the patent was granted in the first place.

-Does anyone know if Smart Parts has a valid patent? If it does, then how can we be upset about it?

-Does anyone know why NPS signed the agreement? Again, looking for hard facts.

-If there is a lawsuit, does anyone know what the licensing fees would be? If its like $30 per marker extra, can any player truly claim they could not afford that? f333+, unless its like $200 per marker, which I doubt, no one who pays for paint could claim to be unable to pay it. And I doubt SP would want to drive all the companies to bankrupcy. Its much more profitiable to derive a licensing fee from each marker than it is to put the company under.

Look, if Smart Parts has some bogus patent they are using to destroy the industry, I'll be as pissed off as everyone else. But all we get are vague details, at best. If someone wants my support, they are going to have to provide details. Saying "I can't provide details at this time" isn't going to cut it.

[Miscue]

They could set a precedent with the upcoming case, and everyone else would be forced to comply. They don't need to take everyone to court.

[Steelrat]

They would if the mechanisms are different. Saying that ICD's mechanism infringes on their patent is probably a bit different than saying AGD's mechanism does. I think for precedent to work, the cases need to be identical.

[FooTemps]

Originally posted by Steeratt
They would if the mechanisms are different. Saying that ICD's mechanism infringes on their patent is probably a bit different than saying AGD's mechanism does. I think for precedent to work, the cases need to be identical.

Well, if the rumors are true about what the expanded patent is, then the cases will be close to the same because sp would be suing over the application of batteries and electronics in paintball markers.

[Doc Nickel]

Originally posted by Steeratt
-Does anyone know if Smart Parts is planning to sue every maker?

-I suspect they're preparing for it, but I'm also sure they don't want to. Suits take time and money and manpower even if you win.

However, SP has already notified every electro maker (as of about two years ago) that their patents cover the use of electronics, and thus they- the notified makers- would have to license that technology from them.

They were uniformly declined, since at the time the patent was more or less as it was issued in '96- it covered the Shocker and only the Shocker.

-Does anyone know if Smart Parts has a valid patent? If it does, then how can we be upset about it?

-This is what they're in court over now.

It is my only semi-informed opinion that no, they don't have a valid patent. The original Shocker patent was written as all patents are, vaguely enough to be allowed by the USPTO but not so specific that, for example, somebody could bypass it by using a 9-volt instead of the original Shocker's four AAs.

However, by means of manipulating the patent office bureaucracy, they managed to amend and expand the original Shocker patent, so instead of covering the gun, they say it now covers the electronics- IE, the very idea of using electronics and electrical components (switches, solenoids, batteries, etc) to fire a paintball.

This is something of a grey area- it may well be within the letter of the law, but in reality they are trying to manipulate a patent agency so they can then turn around and force other manufacturers to pay royalties on technology that SP did not invent nor did they actually patent.

And in my opinion, that's underhanded and avaricious.

-Does anyone know why NPS signed the agreement?

-I think only NPS can answer that. However, as has been noted, I suspect there was some give-and-take going on. NPS is the 800-pound gorilla of the distribution scene, and SP certainly must realize they ought not to alienate, or worse, anger, that powerful a marketing source.

On the other hand, NPS makes considerable money off retailing SP hardware, and NPS surely realizes they ought not anger that large a supplier.

Thus, I very strongly suspect- though, in the end it is just a suspicion- that the NPS deal is little more than window dressing. Very little or no money changed hands- or WILL change hands- unless SP truly wins the suits, and in that case, NPS would pay a token royalty on the few "infringing" items they produce- such as the Intimidator.

There might be a clause in there- more supposition- that assuming SP wins, NPS might agree to not carry any "infringing" marker made by any company who might manage to refuse to pay royalties.

-If there is a lawsuit, does anyone know what the licensing fees would be? If its like $30 per marker extra, can any player truly claim they could not afford that? f333+, unless its like $200 per marker, which I doubt, no one who pays for paint could claim to be unable to pay it.

-A good question, and again, at this point only SP can answer that.

However, keep in mind that, pretty much no matter what, you will be paying more for a gun. Whether it's "only" $20 or it's a punitive $200 to make their marker line more appealing to the buyers.

And as I mentioned above, it is my opinion that SP is not entitled to that money.

Read that again- that, to me, is the crux right there: What SP is doing, win or lose, they are doing in a dirty, underhanded way for reasons of pure, naked greed.

Other makers could be forced to pay SP money that SP did not earn and does not deserve, for technology that SP did not invent nor properly patent.

And I doubt SP would want to drive all the companies to bankrupcy. Its much more profitiable to derive a licensing fee from each marker than it is to put the company under.

-Except you forget that SP makes its own line of markers. They might, for example, make $150 profit off each Impulse, or they might get $25 to $75 as a royalty from, say, a Bushmaster.

Thus, if- for example- ICD stays in business, SP gets paid, and if ICD goes under, there's no more Bushies, and the buyers have to then go with the Impulse, and SP gets money anyway- very likely even more per unit.

So you see that, from SP's point of view, it's pretty much a win-win: other makers stay in business, SP gets cash. Other makers close down, SP sells more of their line of equipment, and still gets cash.

Look, if Smart Parts has some bogus patent they are using to destroy the industry, I'll be as pissed off as everyone else.

-Again, to say they're trying to "destroy" the industry is hyperbolic; that's certainly NOT their intent.

However, they ARE, undoubtedly, manipulating the patent process in a way that can only be decribed as underhanded, in an effort to make money off of other companies' products and technology.

But all we get are vague details, at best.

-I believe at this point enough details have passed from "vague" to "pretty firm" to qualify. Not the least of which is the recent NPS press release.

If someone wants my support, they are going to have to provide details. Saying "I can't provide details at this time" isn't going to cut it.

-SP is suing ICD. The court records are on the 'Net. SP did contact all the electro manufacturers two years ago and tried to arrange licensing of their "patented technology" that at the time was not actually patented. SP has tried to sue WDP over electro markers- those court papers are also available online.

Closer to home, Tom Kaye has already mentioned that part of the reasoning behind the ULE Trigger was the forming SP lawsuit, and that he'd been holding off on the 3.0 software update to see where that same suit was going to go.

If you're waiting for a press release from SP themselves, you'll have to wait 'til it's over. They're currently in court and anything they say publicly can or could be used against them. Same reason you don't hear anything official from ICD- they can't say anything, lest they give away details or cause a mistrial.

Doc.

[Steelrat]

Good resonses Doc. Lets hope the legal system does its job.

[ben_JD]

Re: Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!

Originally posted by Ronin 23
Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!

I wonder how many attorneys (in their right minds) spend time on these boards? If any do, however, I doubt they are IP lawyers, they tend toward the nerdy side.

[Muzikman]

Re: Re: Is there any Intellectual Property Attorneys in the HOUSE!!!

Originally posted by ben_JD
I wonder how many attorneys (in their right minds) spend time on these boards? If any do, however, I doubt they are IP lawyers, they tend toward the nerdy side.

You havn't met many AOers huh?

[beam]

Wouldn't it be ironic if Brass Eagle came and bailed everyone out?

The irony comes in two forms....first, they just sued Odessy for something similar (patent infringement) and Odessy setteled with them.

Second, they are constantly being hated and put down by most of the players who would be affected by the SP lawsuit.

BE gets no respect from most of the experienced players these days, so I think it would be kinda neat if they "came to the rescue" of those who despise them.

However, BE doesn't make an electro anymore do they? There are a few VL e-frame type markers, but nothing by BE since the rainy. I wonder if the SP suit would really affect them that much.

[rpm07]

The thing that gets me are the people that say I will pay the extra $75 fee for a gun. Think people its going to be more then that there is a 1,000,000 that has to be paid first then $75 per gun who the hell do you thing is going to pay that. Do you think a company is going to and not add that into a price I dont think so. So when you say that it is only going to be a extra $75 for a gun ah no big deal, it is a big deal because its going to be a few hunderd dollars added to the gun price.