didn't know where else to talk about this: using a retro on/off in a classic valve..

[the electrician]

okay don't know if anybody has tried it yet but I noticed the ULE on/off is not recommended for standard valves.
why is this? because the pin is smaller and the recharge rate is slower?

I've been working on an on/off design that would give a soft trigger pull, but not reduce the recharge rate of the standard valve.

I noticed the lvl 10 tends to slow the bolt down and use more air psi. more psi in the same size chamber, means longer recharge time. this longer recharge time seems to be what is actually limiting bps, not the slower bolt speed, when using a lvl 10 bolt. I've been able to retrieve my original shorter recharge time by shortening the on/off pin just a bit. this higher psi also means more force is generated onto the sear, by the on/off pin. it would be nice to reduce this, without losing recharge rate.

when using a standard bolt, the on/off can be shortened to .688 (on my gun anyway) and the recharge time is reduced significantly. the gune will top out at about 20 bps without drop off, instead of the original 16 bps with the standard .75" pin.

now with the lvl 10 and an electronically controlled sear, the pin can only be shortened to .720". otherwise,when there is a misfire and the lvl 10 does it's job, the sear comes up and hits the bolt before it can make it back. this leaves the sear about halfway between fire and recharge. if the in is too short, air fills the chamber too quickly and starts to vent out of the unseated bolt. this prevents the bolt from resetting.

now this may be different with a standard mechanical trigger. it might be possible to use the .688" pin. but it would be nice to reduce the trigger pull force for the standard valve by redesgining the on/off. what I've come up with is fairly close to the on/off of an RT, or retro valve.

so has anybody tried putting one in a standard valve?

[the electrician]

I went and measured the RT on/off at a local store (the guys there are super nice and put up with me and my pickyness) and decided it was worth a try.

after a few simple modifications... it worked like a charm!!
the psi input into my sear actuator was 80 psi when using a lvl10 bolt. now, 40 psi is all it takes. that means it basically cut the needed amount of force in half!
and now for the real trick... it doesn't lose any bps at all!! no loss of recharge speed means no loss of bps. for my e-mag design this means more efficient use of air and better response time at the actuator, not to mention a few more shots per charge. just a little more efficient all around.

for those who have a mechanical mag using a standard valve, it means you can cut your trigger pull force in half, without sacrificing bps.

for those building pneuma-sear mags, it also means a softer trigger, because of less psi in the 3-way controlling your actuator.

and regular old RT on/off is about $20 cheaper than the ULE trigger pull kit.

[Cristobal]

Have you seen Twiek's on/off valve design that Doc links to off his tech page? If not check it out: http://www.geocities.com/paintballshack/valve2.html

Basically its designed on the same idea: decrease the pull weigh and bring some reactivity to the classic valve. About two years ago I started to turn one on the lathe... maybe I'll have to dig it out so I can finish it and try it.

[Dubstar112]

Ok. This was the original point of the hyperframe On/off valve that came with the frame. Very good on batteries. It cut the trigger weight considerably making the solenoid use less power..

check it out.

[steveg]

It's interesting that this should crop up. I tried my
hyperframe on/off valve with my classic valve and old
plastic frame a while back, it does indeed make for a nice
light pull.

I fired about a hopper full with out any problems at all
(this after 3 years of featherweight hyperframe and matrix
triggers)

[the electrician]

well I've thought about it, but it's the e-mag conversion that makes me start analyzing the the mechanical components of the gun. using a modified RT on/off in the standard valve yeilds a lighter pull, and alot more reactivity than I expected. I really wasn't looking for reactivity, just lighter pull, without losing recharge rate.

I'd like to see some pics of the center flag on/off design.
they didn't have any on the site.

twieks site doesn't have pics either.

the problem with using the RT on/off in a standard, mechanical mag is that it has problems returning the sear all the way the sometimes. and the reason is that the smaller dia. part of the pin has less return force and it is trying to push the trigger back when your finger is still on it. in the RT valve this is of course remedied by the higher psi that is being applied to the top of the on/off pin.

in my e-mag conversion, it works great because it doesn't feel finger pressure and the actuator has a spring return so it doesn't have that slowing it down either. nor is there a trigger pin coming off the sear.

I know replacing the small urethane o-ring inbetween the on/off top and bottom with a viton or buna-n o-ring would help a little with return capabilities, but a wonder if quad seal o-rings would show enough of a significant gain to warrant the extra cost.

[darrickws]

Simple mods...

So what were the few simple modifications you made to the RT on/off to make it work. And you stated it might have problems with a standard (benchmark double) trigger frame?

[spiralx45]

Ok, so i'm making a kinda "budget" electric mag with a boo yaah and some custom one off parts. Key word there is budget! It would be nice to save battery power using a differn't on/off assembly but I'm not to enthused using the ULT on/off (it's not supposed to be used in classic vlaves per AGD and don't use it in emags). This whole idea of using the RT on/off sounds alot better for my classic valve. What mods would it need to fit into my valve? Electrician, you said some simple modifications? If you don't mind sharing what you did and i'm gonna try this in my mag!

[the electrician]

http://www.automags.org/forums/showthread.php?t=136192 check out post #5 in this thread. that's basically what I did.

you'll want to shim it up also, if I didn't mention it. you can use lvl 10 shims.
or for a real quick cheap spacer. go to the hardware or hobby store and get a piece of 11/32 OD brass tube, thin wall, and cut a spacer off of it. make it about .060 to start with and file it down until everything works properly.

you can, shave the pin. BUT you have to be careful and do it right. DO NOT take off more than .030, or you will probably be buying another pin. it is better to use shims because they are not a permanent modification.

this will reduce the force needed to actuate the pin down to about 2 lbs, give or take an ounce or two.

[spiralx45]

Ok sweet, I got everything my RT on/off some lv10 shims got to put it together and dang no air .... my luck. Question electrician where exactly am I putting the lv10 shims? Between the 2 bodies??? Gonna try it without them first but I was thinking about where they should go! And do i have to do all the drilling on it before I put it in??? If i do it might take me awhile before i can get it going!

[the electrician]

okay first off, what exactly is your set-up?
you're using an electro frame? if so, can you adjust the solenoid pulse time?
if not, it can limit your options. I'll explain that later.

if you're using a mechanical valve, no electro, then do not modify the the RT on/off. just toss it in and see how it works.

the shims go in between the the two halves of the on/off. inbetween the top and the bottom. unscrew it, and put them over the threads of the bottom half, like they were washers.

what do you mean about have to do the drilling before? before you put it in the gun? yeah. you can't drill on it when it's in the gun.

or do you mean, can you just try it, before you modify it? yes you can.

you must understand this: the mods are to increase the recharge rate of the on/off and ultimately the gun. all the mods help a little bit. combined, they make it possible to get 18 bps out of the classic valve.
whether or not all the mods are useful to YOU, depends on how fast you're going to feed the gun.

so yeah you can just toss the on/off in your valve, but it may, or may not do what you want it to do without modifying it.

what's up anyway? you don't have a drill and some bits?

[spiralx45]

First off like i stated before I got a classic valve no lv10 yet... and a elcd frame (boo yaah) I don't think I can adjust pulse time.

Yes i know I can't drill it with it on the gun I mean is this going to work without drilling it at first.

Oh and just so you know yes I have a drill and some bits but my shop is trashed right now. I just spent the lasy month thrashing trying to get an engine and a race car ready so I don't need to start any more messes.

No i'm not goign for 18 pbs 15 pbs MAX but considering I don't have a lv10 yet I'm alittle hesitant to push it. Like I said before this is to save battery power without throwing a bunch of money at a ULT that AGD says not to use in classic valve.

[the electrician]

well sorry for the 20 questions, but I don't want to give you mis-information because I misunderstood something.

well the boo-yaah is probably my least favorite electro frame, but if it works for you, that's all that matters.

the lvl 10 also reduces the needed sear actuation force, just to let you know.
so it will help you in two ways, and hurt in one. it makes chops virtually non existent, it cut in half the force that the bolt pushes against the sear with, and the one draw back is that uses more air. (this means a bit more recharge time and a bit more force in the on/off.)

so later on you can get a lvl 10, and the combination it and the RT on/off will give you a very low needed sear actuation force.

yeah you can toss it in and see how it does.
if you look closely at it though, you'll see that it is really not designed to work in the classic, the holes are a little different. it MAY not recharge quick enough in the classic valve IF left as is. I don't know what you'll get out of it.
but if it doesn't recharge quick enough, and it looks or sounds like you are getting shoot down(velocity drop) then do the shims FIRST. don't drill anything yet.

with the standard bolt, you can probably use alot of shims. too many shims and it might go full auto on you. this is because the on/off starts letting air into the dump chamber so soon, it pressurizes before the sear catches , and the gun just perpetually cycles untill it can't keep up.

you can probably use up to 6 shims with you set up, maybe 7, before it goes full auto.

if you can't get the recharge rate up enough before it goes full auto, then you'll have to do some drilling to get there.

another thing is using a quad-ring in place of the inner o-ring on top of the on/off. this helps out with recharge rate, but you have to be able to shim a bit more to use it properly.

I wouldn't reccomend the ULT in a mag with an electro frame. the most I have been able to get out of the ULT(in a classic valve) is 13 bps, highly modified. normally I couldn't get more than 11.

you said you want to save bettery power and you don't want to spend alot?
using a rechargeable 9-volt would save you alot of money in the long run. they make some really good rechargeable 9-volt batteries now, if you're not already using one.

here's a link:

http://www.4cbradio.com/9v_nimh_batteries.htm

I like the plainview batts. much better than alkalines for using in electro frames.

let me know how the gun works when you try it.