Final Truth to Why autocockers seem more accurate | And guess what ITS NOT THE ELVES!

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  • *ArKfEaR*
    WATCH ENDGAME NOW!
    • Aug 2002
    • 1009

    #1

    Final Truth to Why autocockers seem more accurate | And guess what ITS NOT THE ELVES!

    Dont flame: No Flames: Just debating: Thats what i would like on this thread. Science and truth not just... #$%#$%^%^&&!@#$&#@$(*@)#$)@******@#*$*@#$**!!&@#&*&! you suck @$#@$ .. get the point?

    Now lets begin:

    As we all know the most common factors as what determines a guns accuracy and range are: (listed and labeled)

    Consistency (Accuracy): Obviously an inconsist gun rising and dropping in fps will alter a balls travel to its target, so this is one of the main factors

    Paint to Bore Match (accuracy): A nice fit will make those balls shoot like darts, and in a tight patter as well.

    FPS (Range): Higher the fps longer those balls fly, but also more chances of curving and innaccuracy.

    Kick (accuracy): Definetly a gun that is kicking hellava lot will throw off a person aiming at a target. So low kick is good so you will constantly be aim'ing at your target.

    These are most of the factors scientifically and commen sense wise.

    Next is the stuff that we are going to have the debate about:

    The reason for Cockers are being accurate is not because they are simply a closed bolt system, There is a reason for this and i am going to explain it to you how well it works. So that means that when the sear is dropped and the ball is fired, all the valves in the gun are sealed. This allows for fewer variables in the output pressure. Also with the closed bolt, the bolt is already forward so there is no air in-between the bolt and the ball, again leaving less play for error and less fluctuation of your fps. Closed bolt systems work well on guns like the Excalibur, but they are lacking the consistency and regulation of the whole process entailing the sear, cocking of the hammer, and so on and so forth.

    And dont get me wrong i am not bashing the mags tubular technology cause it owns and now with level 10 its elite. But im still explaining this thoroughly so not only is this pertaining to the mag, also with other non-closed bolt guns.


  • FooTemps
    HURRRR
    • Sep 2001
    • 6702

    #2
    Time for counter arguement!!! YAY!

    lol... That title sounds silly but oh well...

    Ok, the cocker's still got extremely good consistency over the mag... I can't get my mag to run within +/- 2 like all those other people I usually get +/- 4 to 6 fps. Ok, enough of that... lol, my main issue I wanted to address is the kick. LVL 10 has that superbolt II if you didn't know that already and it's just about as light as superbolt I. That means there should be as much kick as a cocker or less...

    .
    Good Traders:
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    • freek133
      Because I can
      • Dec 2001
      • 366

      #3
      There shouldnt be any air between the ball and the bolt of the mag either, the ball drops in the barrel and the bolt pushes it a little ways farther into the barrel quickly before shooting it out of the barrel. (If I am wrong on that, please correct me) Thats what the video of the gun cycling shows me.

      And the On/Off part of the valve, it stops air flow before the gun cycles, wouldnt that be like the cocker sealing all the air passages before it cycles?

      If I am right, (which I may not be.. not sure) then you are still mistaken.
      baaaaamm, yo i can hang!!!
      2K3 TADAO *ACED* MATRIX FOR SALE $900! W/ PLENTY OF UPS!

      Comment

      • FooTemps
        HURRRR
        • Sep 2001
        • 6702

        #4
        Originally posted by freek133
        There shouldnt be any air between the ball and the bolt of the mag either, the ball drops in the barrel and the bolt pushes it a little ways farther into the barrel quickly before shooting it out of the barrel. (If I am wrong on that, please correct me) Thats what the video of the gun cycling shows me.

        And the On/Off part of the valve, it stops air flow before the gun cycles, wouldnt that be like the cocker sealing all the air passages before it cycles?

        If I am right, (which I may not be.. not sure) then you are still mistaken.
        If you were right then the mag would be on an equal plane with the cocker... meaning... Tom just really really sucks at marketing... lol... (not hatin... I just needed to make a stupid comment on marketing)

        .
        Good Traders:
        Tunaman, K-villeplayer, Magman007, Mastersconi, Jon/xpm, Kenndogg

        My feedback if you've dealt with me, leave some...

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        • SaS
          Silent.... Like Crabs
          • Jul 2002
          • 390

          #5
          I kind of got off on a Rant ... been watching too much of Denise Miller...

          the automag is all sealed up after the trigger is pulled...
          this is why... the on/off seals the front half from the main air source... the bolt is traveling forward but is designed not to release pressure until the paintball(and bolt) are in the foward firing position

          level 10 is a minor exception because it's designed for the first half of it's stroke to be low pressure rather then the higher pressure of the level 7 assemblies

          the autocockers just doesn't have a moving bolt...
          but it still has the striker(do you call it a hammer) that hits the valve the same way as with double stack blow backs...
          the hammer(is it hammer?) and the valve can be modified to practically minimal effects on the markers movment(talking about kick)

          the manual trigger automags still have the effects of the sear and a main spring returning the bolt...
          internal movment: foward / back
          automags ..... pressure / spring
          autocockers .. .. spring / pressure
          patato... patato(that saying works a lot better verbally then in text)

          oh... a little experiment to try
          closed bolts and open bolts
          get a pop can and a softball.. or soda for you coastal folk
          with the can still... balance the ball on top
          you now have a closed bolt system

          now take the can and hold it at a 45 degree angle... use your other hand to hold the ball were it would go...
          make it so the ball is in place but only balancing on your hand(not grasping it)
          now, QUIKLY, move the can at that 45 degree angle
          for the duration of the cans movment(with minimal change from that 45 degree angle) the ball will stay in place(good old physics)
          you have a open bolt system


          WARPIG.com did a test of open bolt and closed bolt on the same system(one marker that could change from open to closed)



          they concluded that there was no.. that's NO noticable difference in accuracy
          because they were the same marker system, just different bolt configurations... the different marker system makes the difference(valve, internal set up, and related internals)...
          the Autococker is not more accurate because it has a CLOSED-bolt...



          i always considered the two markers the same... pick on depending on your taste for their triggers, maintence, upgradablility, service, and just the looks

          the thing is... you can find this in BOTH systems... so it really just comes down to trigger and maintence...
          but then again... you can modify both of these markers to perform to EXACTLY how you want it... so, to me, it really doesn't matter which one you pick and why you picked it...

          each marker is what you make of it and what you CAN make with it

          sorry that i got off on a rant... sorry again
          I just got my new stuff in today and my mind is just flying through technical data... the automag/autococker was just the victom... sorry again

          not ment to be a flame ... it's just a rant

          oh one more last thing that i just have to type
          there is no difference in range with any marker, it's just accuracy at a distance... fps determines range and accuracy just determines if it curves more, and earlier then with another marker(besides from the normal arc)
          Last edited by SaS; 09-07-2002, 02:46 AM.
          AGD
          Another Great Design....
          Little Help

          Comment

          • SaS
            Silent.... Like Crabs
            • Jul 2002
            • 390

            #6
            See, i think out loud and that's what goes into my text

            i'm really tempted to start talking... well i guess it would be typing... about the variable amounts of friction in the various parts of each system... how the springs of each system effects each markers consistency and their found variable range of fps with various parts involved...

            but no more from me with this... i've typed too much already

            also our local sports caster is coming to the field tomorrow and I was planning on playing... would be nice to have some sleep

            peace all


            **edit** i typed rfp instead of fps... oops****
            AGD
            Another Great Design....
            Little Help

            Comment

            • FutureMagOwner
              Registered User
              • Dec 2001
              • 3354

              #7
              kick has no effect on accuracy unless you just got the gun. ive seen people shoot real guns as fast as they could and have them all hit center because they are accustomed to the recoil.

              Comment

              • P4ULuk
                WPG 2003 Test Crew!!
                • Nov 2001
                • 254

                #8
                Re: Final Truth to Why autocockers seem more accurate | And guess what ITS NOT THE ELVES!

                Originally posted by *ArKfEaR*


                The reason for Cockers are being accurate is not because they are simply a closed bolt system, There is a reason for this and i am going to explain it to you how well it works. So that means that when the sear is dropped and the ball is fired, all the valves in the gun are sealed. This allows for fewer variables in the output pressure. Also with the closed bolt, the bolt is already forward so there is no air in-between the bolt and the ball, again leaving less play for error and less fluctuation of your fps. Closed bolt systems work well on guns like the Excalibur, but they are lacking the consistency and regulation of the whole process entailing the sear, cocking of the hammer, and so on and so forth.

                regardless of fluctuations if I have a cocker and a mag next to each other both barrels at the same degree's both shooting exactly the same fps why will the cockers shot be any different to the mags? for that 1 shot it doesn't matter if either marker lost 50 psi anywhere in the firing sequence providing both velocitys for that shot are the same.

                explain?


                Paul.
                www.alphapaintball.co.uk
                UK Distributor for AKA
                All questions or queries
                mail me here


                ***********************************

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                Comment

                • TRIAD
                  Registered User
                  • Jun 2002
                  • 889

                  #9
                  This......Is.......Stupid

                  Dont flame: No Flames: Just debating: Thats what i would like on this thread. Science and truth not just... #$%#$%^%^&&!@#$&#@$(*@)#$)@******@#*$*@#$**!!&@#&*&! you suck @$#@$ .. get the point?
                  Where's your technical data?

                  Technical data is statistics and numbers and controlled testing, not "common sense".
                  Christian, and proud of it.

                  My setup, built by Tunaman:

                  http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...threadid=50949

                  Good Traders: Tunaman, dnm5d, vf-xx, cphilip

                  FOR SALE:
                  One 'cocker barrel and a pre-2k APBBOLTS anti-chop bolt. PM for info.

                  Comment

                  • magman007
                    I <3 my Penis
                    • Jun 2001
                    • 7579

                    #10
                    hmm, you also argued in a previous thread that angels were less accurate than a cocker. you seem to base this all on consistency and kick, well im proving you wrong on consistency.

                    I know there are angels of +-0 go talk to mykroft, he will tell you. most properlt tuned angels stay thin +-1. my e-mag also stays with in +-1.

                    PErsonally, i think it is funny, that people bring up old, dead killed topics, that have been proven wrong so many times before, and then go but look see? i came up with new crtap to spew! well its still wrong, there not more accurate, face it.

                    Jeez, i think people argue about paintball markers like guys argue whether size matters or not. WHO GIVES A CRAP! there both accurate, it is all paint to barrel match.


                    FYI my e-mag has virtually no kick

                    What about the cocker? when the bolt opens it has that back block flying back, did you tihnk of that? thats a good amount of mass.

                    I have owned boty mags and cockers, i know my stuff. TRUST ME! You can believe waht you want, but please dont soil the world with bad info.



                    I do appreciate you trying though, and taking my advice in the previous thread. Im also happy people have gone reasonally light on you.



                    Originally posted by Tom in reffrence to a post saying he acted like my dad...
                    "That's right!
                    WHO'S YOUR DADDY!!"
                    ALL QUIT AND NO GO!!! Team Icky Forest-Shatnerball 2003!!!
                    www.tunamart.com
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                    Comment

                    • rx2
                      DBAF
                      • Mar 2002
                      • 496

                      #11
                      Re: I kind of got off on a Rant ... been watching too much of Denise Miller...

                      Originally posted by SaS
                      get a pop can and a softball.. or soda for you coastal folk
                      This if off topic, but I noticed that SaS used the word "pop." I hear that all of the time where I live, but it seemed everywhere else in the country, it was called soda, especially in the south. I guess I was wrong.
                      "My Jell-O is dying in the audience..."
                      Merrill Howard Kalin

                      Comment

                      • potti
                        Registered User
                        • Jun 2002
                        • 124

                        #12
                        blowback can only slightly effect long strings of shots. if you are firing 1 ball at a time to test accuracy, recoil happens well after the ball exits the barrel.

                        Comment

                        • pete-is-god17
                          Registered User
                          • Apr 2002
                          • 52

                          #13
                          kick/ recoil is minimal in paintball guns and has little to no effect on accuracy if you are used to it.
                          "uhh yeah thats nice, uhhh you should get goin"
                          the ladies man

                          Comment

                          • Ov3rmind
                            Speechless
                            • Nov 2001
                            • 2637

                            #14
                            Well, all guns will shoot just as accurately with the same paint/barrel match and same consistancy. The ball will leave the barrel just as straight going from a Cocker as going from a Mag. Some guns are just easier to line up and shoot more accurately however. Balance and kick will both effect how accurately YOU shoot/aim your gun, but it will not effect the balls flight. Another thing is height: taller guns often give the misperception of longer range and/or greater accuracy. After you count in those factors, you can see why some people think Shockers, Cockers, etc. shoot more accurately than other guns like Angels and Mags. The balls travel may be pretty much the same, but other factors determine how accurately the person is actually shooting the gun.
                            What about the cocker? when the bolt opens it has that back block flying back, did you tihnk of that? thats a good amount of mass.
                            The Cocker also cycles slower from what I can tell, which would give it less kick. Keep in mind Cockers also have larger bodies (=More weight) which can help subdue kick (except for some of those really light Cockers: SFL, Works, Orracle, etc. Also notice though, they all have very low cocking pressures, which would also lower kick).
                            kick has no effect on accuracy unless you just got the gun. ive seen people shoot real guns as fast as they could and have them all hit center because they are accustomed to the recoil.
                            You've never been in a situation where you couldn't hold your gun tight (holding your gun one handed, trying to angle off some weird shots in the snake, etc.)? Kick will make a difference during these times. The fact that the gun moves more after every shot does in fact mean that you will have a slightly harder time shooting it more accurately.
                            Converge Kills

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                            • Havoc_online
                              www.havoc-online.com
                              • Feb 2002
                              • 2851

                              #15
                              please refer to my post on top of the second page... http://www.automags.org/forums/showt...0&pagenumber=2
                              www.havoc-online.com <--- Your AGD Lifeline

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