Smart Parts Patent Will Destroy Paintball! - Read!

[toolfan62]

Originally posted by manike


Would it make a difference if the gun was electronic or mechanical???

do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

[manike]

Originally posted by toolfan62
do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

Erm, yes in some form in modern weapons I have seen electronics being used. But anyway it was a joke...

[Lohman446]

Frankly, this whole thing is a threat to the industry as a whole - I know for a fact (I have read the transcripts) that Bud Orr has gone to court to help the industry - I am sure many others have.

There reaches a point, where the manufacturers who have gotten this industry here, need to unite. It is time for BE (largest supplier out there), AGD, WGP, and everyone else to put up a common defense. It is time that they support ICD and WDP in any way possible - be it financially or with expertise. It is then time that these same companies see to it that the patent is overturned through other legal channels. An industry group that excludes SP as further developments are made - there is no reason one company should be able to bully an industry that has worked cooperatively together to make paintball what it is today. Where was SP when paintball did not appear to be highly profitable? Why should they have such a say today... just my two cents.

[fenris69]

I originally heard this one in Yiddish(ahh wonderful language for insults) but I think it applies...

"If my grandmother had balls she'd be my grandfather"

point being... well you get the point. I'm going to reserve judgement till I know exactly what SP intends to do. The many other pre-existing patents I find interesting and it seems to me that somewhere along the line SP could have been taken to account for their own patent attempts... but then when I consider all the other similar actions... ie. WGP vs the vertical cocker body?? The industry as a whole seems to be rather naive and idealistic when it comes to the rule of principle vs cash, handshake agreements just wont do it anymore. But hey, you the players and even the small owners all have a voice. You want to cut SP's market share in half? I think it could be done, but why?? IF these patents are as flimsy as was suggested then no worries right? IF they are upheld somehow(I'm not sure I see how yet, but I'll do some more reading) then why would SP do something that would flush their public image down the toilet?? They may as was mentioned go after the smaller struggling companies simply putting them down on legal expenses but... well however much that disgusts and angers me, it's biz and IMO it wont damage the sport long term. But this is all trying to be impartial, an observer...
as a player, I say the hell with SP and their crap, lets get something going!! I no longer have any urge to purchase that max-flo I was eyeing.

[Jack & Coke]

Originally posted by toolfan62


do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

http://www.metalstorm.com/



"A totally electronic specialist police and military handgun prototype has fired two rounds at 45,000 rounds per minute, and three rounds at 50,000 rounds per minute."

Link to video clip

http://www.metalstorm.com/12_odwyervle/prototype.html

The ability to fire such ultra-rapid bursts can place multiple rounds on the target in a very effective way. At these extreme rates of fire, even a three shot burst sounds and looks as though only a single shot has been fired, except that three impacts appear virtually simultaneously on the target.

If a police officer is faced with no choice other than to react to end a highly threatening situation, the stopping power of multiple rounds fired in a single burst is more likely to end the confrontation quickly, avoiding a gunfight and reducing possible police or civilian casualties.

Electronic Access Controls:
The VLe test weapon incorporates, as part of its original manufacture, technology which automatically limits its operational use and cannot be readily deactivated, so that the gun can only be fired by authorised or recognised users.

It is fitted with a 64 digit electronic keying system that limits its usage to only authorised persons who are wearing a dress ring concealing a tiny transponder. The keying system - developed by a US company - can activate the handgun in just a few milliseconds, when the two codes match.

Audio and Visual Confirmation of Weapon Settings:
When activated, a clear electronic voice message can confirm when the weapon is set to fire, which fire settings are selected, and also when the weapon is returned to 'Safe'.

In situations where surprise might be desirable, audible confirmation can be disengaged. However, in other instances, audio confirmation can provide an officer with additional situational control in a confrontation, by clearly announcing an escalating level of response to an escalating threat from a criminal.

The electronic handgun incorporates features discussed at briefings in 1999 with the Commissioner of the New York Police Department and duty officers at the 1st District Precinct in Washington DC.

Metal Storm will continue to demonstrate the advanced capabilities to senior police and military personnel in Australia and the U.S.

Future Development:
Further developments will also include a rapid reload capability, and miniaturised electronics. A range of alternative electronic access limiters is planned for future firing systems, as is a battery-free operating capability.

Metal Storm is presently developing a compact multiple barrel 24 shot weapon which can be rapidly switched between lethal and less-than-lethal fire.

[icegod]

Originally posted by askman
I wanted to add some information about patent law. lot of misinformation flyiing around here.

US patent is only good for US. most country have their own patent office, and europe has one for the EU. There is 1 year grace period in US for filing patent after making the information public. In europe, once the information is public, you cannot file patent.(no grace period) Patent must be filed in each country.

You can file a patent on anything not already patented. It cannot be obvious. Now, if another person can prove prior art(that the patent idea was already being used) before the filing date, the patent will get thrown out. Because of this, if it is too broad, it has greater chance of being voided. this usually takes a court action.

For example, you could possibly patent how the trigger set off the electrical switch in paintball marker. They can even cover using variety of switches including contact, opto and magnetic. (I don't know if that is what SP did as i have not read their patent) There is trick to writing a good patent. cover as much as possible, but not make it so broad. Another example. Usuing battery for electronic trigger system is probably not patentable. anything electronic by default use battery, so it is obvious. Of course, using windup capacitive discharge system to power it, might be patentable.

I am not a lawyer, but I had a seminar on patent, when I filed for mine. (work for fortune 500 company in r&d)

Hope this helps clear some stuff up...

When i filed for mine, in the paper work explaining it and etc that some countries accept US patents as their own, England was among that list or some intn'l patent or something, i'll try to find all this crap i had about it. I don't remember it exactly bc i was still in a daze from the costs of what it would have been for me to do it. maybe its changed since dunno. I ended up not patenting my stuff due to its so damn expensive for the common man but anyways the main issue about this is, that originally it didnt cover everything they claim, there is revisions that have made it so broad that it covers pretty much all electros. Which this broad range and the previous art they should get shut down and stop the suit, but ya know how falable our judicial system is. Its no longer innocent until proven guilty, its now guilty until proven innocent TRUST ME I KNOW. Because my store was robbed i was shot 2ce, the guy got away, they found out i was having relationship problems several weeks before and all of a sudden I shot my own damn self. Who in thier right mind, owning a business shoot thier self in the chest\shoulder and in the side. no one, but thye tried to pin it on me until witness's came forward saying they saw the guy jump a train. I had to prove my innocence when i was the victim. but thats over now so :P guilty until proven innocent

[TecnoRobo]

After considering all the bad things that could happen because of this situation, ive finally allowed myself to cool down and look at it differently.

The paintball industry has struggled to get where it is today. (struggled alot, i cant put it into words... i guess how much) But the only way the industry can move is forward. It may seem as if this a step backwards or a giant brick wall that we have to step over. Don't get me wrong, because it is, but im just now considering the good things that can come out of the situation.

#1 A new type or breed of markers. Something Other than electros or mechs? Heck i dunno, but im sure the players in the late 80s and early 90s wouldnt have considered there being an electro-pneumatic marker. Atleast i wouldnt have.

#2 The industry as a whole may decide to group together as it once did in the early 90s to make paintball the sport we all want it to be.

#3 Mech markers may have a signifigant comeback and Mags may rule the field again. As Tom Mentioned earlier, why do you think hes been in the process of the ule trigger and probably all the other ule projects/lvl 10?

#4 While it is possable that smaller companies could take major hits, or even go bankrupt, this also gives people the chance to take there shot at it, which could result in a whole new line of supreme products.

At the moment i dont know how bad the situation is. I really dont know what im talking about either. But you always have to consider the good, instead of just looking at the bad all the time i suppose.

And to paintball industry as a whole, especially AGD, Good luck. I hope everything turns out ok.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by toolfan62


do they even have electronic guns?real guns i mean

Actually yes.
Many target pistols have been availible with electronic triggers for the last 30 or so years. Pretty common in the target pistol scene.

The most famous type was used in the recent Star Wars movies, made by Hammerli (VERY expensive).
Yes, there also are electropneumatic firearms. (I believe the Shocker patent refers to a few).

I don't think an electro-firearm makes for prior art, so its a good thing we have that Navy patent!

-Nick

[icegod]

Originally posted by jinxed


Actually yes.
Many target pistols have been availible with electronic triggers for the last 30 or so years. Pretty common in the target pistol scene.

The most famous type was used in the recent Star Wars movies, made by Hammerli (VERY expensive).
Yes, there also are electropneumatic firearms. (I believe the Shocker patent refers to a few).

I don't think an electro-firearm makes for prior art, so its a good thing we have that Navy patent!

-Nick

Fire arms and airpowered guns are not classified in the same manor so that SHOULDNT represent previous art, however from reading the 1971-72 patent by the US Navy, though it appears to be more airsoft style than paintball, it does set a precedent to electronics being used in airpowered guns for sport. Though the patent has now expired on this, (patents last i believe 7 years if not mistaken) it does free up the use of electricity within air powered guns, generally speaking paintball guns.

[Won Hunglo]

Down with Smart Parts!

[TJ03A]

Originally posted by shartley

Actually let me correct you… I didn’t miss anything. If you read what I wrote (all of it) you will find that I said the SAME thing you just did. I also never stated folks could not discuss the issue and disagree with it. And in fact, I advocated boycotts as a way for people to let their feelings known. I also advocated sending letters to SP.

Please folks, don’t confuse my standing up for legal rights with what I think of the situation. They are two different things. As someone who used to have to enforce laws, I am a strict component of equal protection for all… no matter what I think of the person/company.

With that said, I also don’t think this is an issue where SP is wanting to STOP bother companies from selling their products. I would be willing to bet that they WANT other companies to sell their products. This is why I think the numbers being touted as the fee and per marker price may be wrong. I have also stated that most often numbers START higher than what is the final figures…. This is standard for business. And anyone who has done business (or even purchased a car) knows better than to use the highest “possible” numbers and draw any conclusions from that… which is now being done by people who I have regarded as pretty intelligent people.

I get the feeling that folks WANT to hate someone or something. And if it isn’t BE, why not SP? I don’t think any of us has sat down with SP and their lawyers and heard their entire case. This MAY be morally wrong, but it may NOT be as well. I will admit though, that making it morally wrong is easier to do, and hating someone or a company is much easier than to get their side of the story. Thank GOD our Legal System does not work that way. Thank GOD we can have our days in court. And thank GOD mob mentality and emotions don’t decide what is legally right or not.

But does any of this say I agree with SP? NO. Does any of this say I think they are right? NO. Does any of this say I HOPE they win? NO!

Again… I didn’t miss anything. Please don’t confuse issues, and what I said. I am not on anyone’s side. I am on the side of the system, and EVERYONE’S right to use it. And if SP continues with this and takes it all the way to court (which is their RIGHT), and they LOSE… then SHAME on them. But if they WIN….. kind of hard to fight that one. And then we will have to see what happens when everyone sits down at the bargaining table….. and as I stated, I don’t foresee the “doom and gloom” numbers that have been talked about being the final agreed upon figures. It does no one any good to force people out of business…. As I have stated, it is better to get smaller payments over a long time than it is to get NO payments now.

Sorry about that, lost that in the length of this thread.

[jinxed]

Originally posted by icegod

however from reading the 1971-72 patent by the US Navy, though it appears to be more airsoft style than paintball, it does set a precedent to electronics being used in airpowered guns for sport.

The Navy patent certaintly predates the first "official" game in 1980.
But the patent clearly states that its designed to "shoot dye filled gelatin capsules" to provide "lasting and realitic indication of hits" for the purpose of "combat training".
This perfectly describes paintball. (well, woods paintball).
AND is referenced in the Shocker patent, SO SMART PARTS KNOWS it exists. My assumptions is they have already planned a defense to work around the Navy Patent.

Not only does the electropneumatic "Navy" paintgun have great features like a force-feed loader, and ACE, and has a great idea that has never been tested:
At the end of the barrel is a tiny razor blade- This puts a TINY cut on the paintball to ensure that it DEFINETLY breaks on the target!

What an amazing idea for paintball! and apparently its already public domain!

-nick

[DK1]

I think that was actually one of the things the new hammerhead barrel was supposed to do. The rifling was supposed to be sharp enough to actually score the ball. Dunno, never used one, but tis just what I've heard...

DK1

[jinxed]

Originally posted by slushee
Assuming, of coarse, that these notices were actually sent out (again, proof?)

Is there any documentation regarding your claim that SP was/is "going after ICD."

The "latest" reply from Smart Parts confirms what Manike said:

"As for the lawsuit it’s really not up to me. But I do know this, it’s been going on now for a couple of years. This didn’t happen over night. Smart Parts went to every company out there with electronic gun at the time and sat down and talked to each one of them trying to keep it from going to court. But every one of them said go **** yourself. Paintball is growing and will continue to grow and just like the guy who invented the tennis racquet and gets royalties off each one Billy and Adam feel they should be with there invention of the Electronic gun. When they first told people about it, they took so much criticism and said it couldn’t be done and it would never work. They tried to keep it simple and not take it to court but no would give credit where credit was do. Sorry but In a way I do agree with them I just think it could have been done different. I hope people who are in business can see why this has been done, Thanks. Smart Parts"

So, Manike was telling the truth....
Its also interesing that is reply totally contradicts what the last letter from Smart Parts said (about the lawsuit having nothing to do with electronics).

-Nick

[icegod]

Anyone have a family member alive in WW2 that was in the military and higher ranked? My grandpa was a Lt. and said that the military tested stuff similar to the pumps we used today, only in the 1940s-50s. it was "top secret" and he stated that they were attempting a predated chemical warfar using these to test the shooting of different items such as acid filled balls, lightweight metal balls, etc. but the designs were similar to pumps.

So that would mean that the military actually started the progression, yes since the "official" game in the 80s, but the claim of my grandfather, along with the 70s patent of electronic "device" of the navy, that would practically stop the patenting of any marker possibly. Granted you'd have to check into my grandfather's claims more. He died in 95, but, he was always saying my nelspot and cobra made him think back to the war and them testing this kind of stuff. He also basically explained the whole concept except theirs wasn't gas powered it was spring powered similar to talons. [edit] Not the talons made by brass eagle, there is a 40cal marker that is spring fed and pump action. Its more airsoft style but with the 40cal paintballs. I'll see if i can find some pics of them just incase someone wants them [edit]

Maybe someone could check that.

Also as far as the "razor blade" idea, correct me if im wrong but in one of tom kaye's tech sheets on airgun.com describes testing something similar. I'll have to go back and read the tech sheets its been along time lol.




Had to edit for clarification

[Ov3rmind]

Originally posted by icegod
So that would mean that the military actually started the progression, yes since the "official" game in the 80s, but the claim of my grandfather, along with the 70s patent of electronic "device" of the navy, that would practically stop the patenting of any marker possibly. Granted you'd have to check into my grandfather's claims more. He died in 95, but, he was always saying my nelspot and cobra made him think back to the war and them testing this kind of stuff. He also basically explained the whole concept except theirs wasn't gas powered it was spring powered similar to talons.

If they didn't use gas, then they didn't work like paintball guns (BTW, the Talon is still gas powered).

[icegod]

I shoulda been more specific, sorry, there is a talon that is an airsoft style marker that shoots 40cals. I relate it more to paintball than airsoft because of the 40cal being closer to 68cal than 6mm it is a pump action spring'd marker. I didn't even think of the actual talon by brass eagle, that totally slipped my mind. I'll search and see if i can find it through some sites, but it works pretty much the same minus the air. I just was using it for reference that they were testing this, also this was in the 40s-50s so maybe between then and the 70s might have used air, i was just stating it for reference

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by slushee
Do you have a link to the court proceedings on that suit against ICD?

Court proceedings are not generally available on the web.

If you are taking about filed cases and court decisions (of which there are no decisions regarding this issue at this point) you'll have to pay the fees to access the "Westlaw" web site to get the official documents unless someone's law firm givers them a e-copy to post (guess how often this happens).

[icegod]

Originally posted by TheTramp


Court proceedings are not generally available on the web.

If you are taking about filed cases and court decisions (of which there are no decisions regarding this issue at this point) you'll have to pay the fees to access the "Westlaw" web site to get the official documents unless someone's law firm givers them a e-copy to post (guess how often this happens).

Exactly, but you can also check state law libraries, and state court sites, Alot of them have the case numbers, defendant\plaintif and a breifing about it, and some even have the whole case filing. But since up until friday its mainly been hearings and etc its probably not going to be found anywhere. As Jim said friday courts decided ICD was in violation and set a trial date for the case. So far I have been unable to actually find this one, but haven't searched too hard, mainly been doing alot of emailing and calls as alot of others for previous work, also enlighting some of the less-intellectual people out there on whats going on.

[Catch22]

Wouldn't Smart Parts then have a monopoly on the sales of all electropneumatic/electronic gripframed paintball markers using a switch?

*EDIT* Took out the immature part.

[icegod]

Originally posted by Catch22
Wouldn't Smart Parts then have a monopoly on the sales of all electropneumatic/electronic gripframed paintball markers using a switch?

OH yeah are there any good hackers out there? I'm sure something could be done in that matter which is totally illegal and I do not encourage you to engage in or support the practice of illegal activities.

Just a suggestion

Yes they would, they would control that market, but not just with a switch, their patent covers basically battery opperated, solenoid, or have an on\off. which means all electro markers


Hackers lol, come on people, lets be mature about it because if we were to attack them in that manor we would be no better than them but really, we have to fight this in a proper manner.

[shartley]

Originally posted by TJ03A


Sorry about that, lost that in the length of this thread.

No problem... lots of posts there.

[thecavemankevin]

Originally posted by jinxed


The "latest" reply from Smart Parts confirms what Manike said:

"As for the lawsuit it’s really not up to me. But I do know this, it’s been going on now for a couple of years. This didn’t happen over night. Smart Parts went to every company out there with electronic gun at the time and sat down and talked to each one of them trying to keep it from going to court. But every one of them said go **** yourself. Paintball is growing and will continue to grow and just like the guy who invented the tennis racquet and gets royalties off each one Billy and Adam feel they should be with there invention of the Electronic gun. When they first told people about it, they took so much criticism and said it couldn’t be done and it would never work. They tried to keep it simple and not take it to court but no would give credit where credit was do. Sorry but In a way I do agree with them I just think it could have been done different. I hope people who are in business can see why this has been done, Thanks. Smart Parts"

So, Manike was telling the truth....
Its also interesing that is reply totally contradicts what the last letter from Smart Parts said (about the lawsuit having nothing to do with electronics).

-Nick

That is the exact same letter i recieved when i emailed smart parts two days ago.

I pulled these off of another forum, originally posted by paintbalr1331:


Well here are all of the cases listed for "Smart Parts" in the Federal courts. The most recent was filed in 11/2002 against WDP but I was not able to pull up the plaintiff's petition to see what it was about.

3:2002cv01557 (Oregon) 11/15/2002
SMART PARTS INC vs. WDP LTD

2:1997cv01425 (Pennsylvania) 08/05/1997
SMART PARTS, INC vs. WDP, LTD.

2:1995cv00839 (Pennsylvania) 05/31/1995
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. BARRELS OF AMERICA

6:2000mc00102 (Florida) 10/12/2000
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGN

2:2000cv01482 (Pennsylvania) 08/01/2000
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGN

3:2002cv00843 (Oregon) 06/21/2002
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. USA AIR CONCEPTS, INC.

3:2002cv01498 (Oregon) 11/05/2002
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGNS, INC.

[shartley]

Originally posted by thecavemankevin



That is the exact same letter i recieved when i emailed smart parts two days ago.

I pulled these off of another forum, originally posted by paintbalr1331:


Well here are all of the cases listed for "Smart Parts" in the Federal courts. The most recent was filed in 11/2002 against WDP but I was not able to pull up the plaintiff's petition to see what it was about.

3:2002cv01557 (Oregon) 11/15/2002
SMART PARTS INC vs. WDP LTD

2:1997cv01425 (Pennsylvania) 08/05/1997
SMART PARTS, INC vs. WDP, LTD.

2:1995cv00839 (Pennsylvania) 05/31/1995
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. BARRELS OF AMERICA

6:2000mc00102 (Florida) 10/12/2000
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGN

2:2000cv01482 (Pennsylvania) 08/01/2000
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGN

3:2002cv00843 (Oregon) 06/21/2002
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. USA AIR CONCEPTS, INC.

3:2002cv01498 (Oregon) 11/05/2002
SMART PARTS, INC. vs. INDIAN CREEK DESIGNS, INC.

So let me understand this… SP has had cases for quite some time and the Sport and Industry has not been ruined?

[Kraemer]

Damnit... I had ideas for titanium guns, a company starting making them....I had ideas for an Electronic hand gun, a company makes em...


I will never post my Ideas on the internet again


I will not Patent the Idea For titanium paintball guns however....A titanium mag would be so kick ***..

One day all PB guns will be titanium..so

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by shartley

So let me understand this… SP has had cases for quite some time and the Sport and Industry has not been ruined?

Be fair, we don't know what all those are about, nor do we know the status. Simply having the lawsuit doesn't ruin anything, but people are talking about the effect of a win for SP.

[shartley]

Originally posted by Albinonewt


Be fair, we don't know what all those are about, nor do we know the status. Simply having the lawsuit doesn't ruin anything, but people are talking about the effect of a win for SP.

I understand that. But for one, it has not even been officially verified what THIS set of suits are even covering. And they have NOT won anything yet. Heck from reading the posts here, those that are yelling the loudest seem to not believe they have a valid case for anything to begin with… no matter WHAT they are trying to enforce.

This is like shaking your fist at the moon……….. because it might crash into the earth…. tonight.

I prefer to actually see what the facts are, from those INVOLVED…. and THEN decide if I want to get all worried about things. I have not seen too many successful carts being pushed by horses.

[Albinonewt]

The simple thing Shartley is that this is a big deal no matter what. Whether Smart Parts wins or loses every company now has to prepare for the possibility of them winning. As Tom already said, they have been working on the ULE in preparation for this, and I doubt their the only ones. Now that this is (apparently) really picking up steam various companies are going to have to rethink their entire strategy to compensate for a possible SP win. Waiting for all the facts to come in simply isn't an option when dealing with the solvency of your company. They will plan and adjust, to varying degrees, in case Smart Parts wins. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

BTW - that hardly means the industry will collapse, it actually means just the opposite. When this is all over (provided the proper planning and insight is applied) I expect the industry will, for the most part, survive and thrive.

[poolshark5226]

this was taken from DOc Kickel's site and is not confirmed.

"Smart Parts as a company is not suing every company but we are going after Indian Creek Designs at the moment. It is a lawsuit that does pertain to the electronic gun design. I’m really not sure why people are trying to boycott or even have any interest in this matter. We did invent and do have patents on certain electronic gun designs, that other companies have used to further there own line of markers. We as a company tried to settle these issues out of court but none of the other companies would do that so we are suing for patent infringement on our ideas, just like any company or person who has invented something would. You can’t have companies stealing ideas from people and or companies to further there own business and not give back to the inventor. I assure you we are not going after these companies for selfish reasons; we are only trying to run an honest and family oriented business that makes the best paintball products out there. If everyone can steal your ideas and get away with it then where would this country be today? Thank you so much for your support "


" For those that don't know - which is probably just about everyone - ICD has developed a new electro-pnuematic marker. It's a high-end semi meant to compete with Angels, Vikings, New Shockers, etc. It's got a completely new type of hopper mounting system which hopefully we'll be able to see in action soon. The lawsuit filed by Smart Parts is in relation to this new marker - not the Bushy. ICD has put off releasing the marker due to the lawsuit with Smart Parts"

So is this bull? Or what? More SP hype?
What is this new ICD gun? According to this letter, it has nothing to do with electronics, but the new ICD feeding system????

If thats true, then AKA and AGD are lying?

[Albinonewt]

Originally posted by poolshark5226
If thats true, then AKA and AGD are lying?

No more of that Uranium gate nonsense.

Being wrong doesn't always mean lying. They could simply have been misinformed, or have drawn incorrect conclusions.