shootdown

[djellum]

Setup - minimag valve, level 10, intelliframe, rt rail, sear, and pin, and CO2 (this time just my antisiphoned tank for testing, no xp, no remote)

OK, threw a tune on the level 10. Got it shooting right with no bolt stick now, no leaks. shoots fine but getting some pretty good shootdown now. I can go steady at about 2 bps (according to the 3 tooth backyard mechanic measurement clock) and it performs good at +/- 10 fps. if i try to even begin to go faster than that im loosing between 30-50 psi. My next step in the trouble shoot are to fill and hook up my HPA tank and see if its a co2 thing (my co2 tank was fresh filled). I'll also run my remote through a xchamber or palmer reg and use the antisiphon tank to make sure no liguid is in the gun. Is there anything else i should look into? mm valves are supposed to be good for 10 bps. Any number given as performance of an item i ussually cut in half to account for propaganda, but it seems not to even come close to 5 bps (can i even pull that, i dont think so). Honestly its completely useable right now, 2 bps is fast enough, but i want it to be operating correctly. If its supposed to be faster and isnt, then i see something wrong that need fixin.

Anyone successfully ran a palmers reg on a mag (reg'd to 900 or fully open). double reg'n is ussually bad but on the flip side nothing stops liquid co2 like a palmers. My palmers is a female so i can mount it as the tank end of my remote, giveing a lot of air between it and the marker to use for the charge. Preferably i would mount to the bottom like the asa, or side mount strait to the valve. I'm hopeing this is an option, but if the marker isnt recharging fast enough now...

any help is appreciated.
David

[Dend78]

Setup - minimag valve, level 10, intelliframe, rt rail, sear, and pin, and CO2 (this time just my antisiphoned tank for testing, no xp, no remote)

OK, threw a tune on the level 10. Got it shooting right with no bolt stick now, no leaks. shoots fine but getting some pretty good shootdown now. I can go steady at about 2 bps (according to the 3 tooth backyard mechanic measurement clock) and it performs good at +/- 10 fps. if i try to even begin to go faster than that im loosing between 30-50 psi. My next step in the trouble shoot are to fill and hook up my HPA tank and see if its a co2 thing (my co2 tank was fresh filled). I'll also run my remote through a xchamber or palmer reg and use the antisiphon tank to make sure no liguid is in the gun. Is there anything else i should look into? mm valves are supposed to be good for 10 bps. Any number given as performance of an item i ussually cut in half to account for propaganda, but it seems not to even come close to 5 bps (can i even pull that, i dont think so). Honestly its completely useable right now, 2 bps is fast enough, but i want it to be operating correctly. If its supposed to be faster and isnt, then i see something wrong that need fixin.

Anyone successfully ran a palmers reg on a mag (reg'd to 900 or fully open). double reg'n is ussually bad but on the flip side nothing stops liquid co2 like a palmers. My palmers is a female so i can mount it as the tank end of my remote, giveing a lot of air between it and the marker to use for the charge. Preferably i would mount to the bottom like the asa, or side mount strait to the valve. I'm hopeing this is an option, but if the marker isnt recharging fast enough now...

any help is appreciated.
David

im thinkin its CO2, it cant recharge it fast enough, plus are you sure you arent short strokin it?

[djellum]

short stroke

Pretty sure im not short stroking it. Even at 1-2 a second with my finger comeing completely off the trigger it still goes consistantly low about 10-15 fps. i set it to 285 so even with that its in the 270's, which is a usable fps, and it will stay consistant in that range. I do shortstroke sometimes but I can ussually tell (I think anyway). If you let it sit for a couple of seconds the shot will be in the 280's, if not its 270's or lower depending. Maybe clean and regrease the reg? people have said the stock reg is really good so it should recharge fairly quick. I asked about bypassing it and using my palmers but ppl said not to because the stock reg was just as good (personally idk, the palmers has been tops for me so far, but i'll wait and see).

[Dend78]

well if you go to HPA your lookin at 3 regs, and there is no need for that, but i honestly think its the co2 factor, i used my first mag for about a month with co2 and then i got an hpa tank never used that stuff again in any marker aside from a phantom, and an overlord. i would say get yr air filled and use it and see if that fixes yr problem. co2 is only like 500psi or something like that and it is more consistant out of your anti-siphon but you still can beat 800psi 99.9% of the time with HPA

[Piranti]

Actually CO2 is at 850psi at normal 70 degree temperatures. it will creep higher depending on the outside temperature.

[Dend78]

thanx for correcting me on that i was told by a local shop owner that they were lower than that actually somewhere around 550-650psi, but i never cared to check because my hpa tank was preforming flawlesly

[Spider-TW]

If you have an old on/off, make sure the cross grooves face the on/off (down) and it's not in upside down.

When is the last time you cleaned and lubed the reg piston? It pushes the reg pin off the seat when the dump chamber pressure drops. If it is sticky, it won't open up the reg very well.

[djellum]

If you have an old on/off, make sure the cross grooves face the on/off (down) and it's not in upside down.

When is the last time you cleaned and lubed the reg piston? It pushes the reg pin off the seat when the dump chamber pressure drops. If it is sticky, it won't open up the reg very well.

just got everything in the last week, so I dont know when anything was done last. I just tuned the bolt, next I'll check the on/off and the rebuild the reg. I know your supposed to use thicker grease for the reg. will Sleek lube work. Its a teflon grease, but i dont know if teflon is bad for reg operation. I'll check with AGD and see what they recommend.

Also I know CO2 is around 800 but it can vary a bit. My tank was full and I wasnt firing fast enough to frost the tank or anything, so it should be up there. Just a burst of 5-10 then stop and review my velocities. My real thought on the CO2 was that since it was just filled i still might have been getting some liquid in the gun. Still a dramatic reaction for a little liquid 2.

If all else fails i can send it in (its a 4 star valve), but I want to exhaust what I can do with it first.

Thanks for all the info

[Coralis]

If i had to wager a guess im thinking the CO2 is causing the level 10 oring to swell and causing some bolt stick and shoot down ....

[Spider-TW]

If i had to wager a guess im thinking the CO2 is causing the level 10 oring to swell and causing some bolt stick and shoot down ....

We went down that road a month or two ago with a bolt stick issue. I think it got ruled out for a few of reasons...
1) it seems very rare, if it is an issue at all
2) the power tube orings see a lower pressure (~450?) than something like a bottle oring.
3) iirc, the bolt stick was from an old bolt spring or a frame screw tension problem (or both).

If it is a used mag, it needs to be taken down and cleaned up. Otherwise you will never know what will be next. There's not many things to go wrong, but you would rather play than figure out each problem, one at a time.

If you've never had it apart before, keep a camera handy. Pictures of sand and mud inside the valve make for fun speculation.

[[NA]WARLORD]

I am assuming his tank is a 20 oz, and since its anti siphoned, you cant fill it completely or you'll submerge the anti siphon tube in c02 and draw straight liquid into the gun, especially if its mounted in a horizontal asa. Also, an anti siphoned tank run through a remote will draw liquid into the Mag as well, you can use one or the other but not both. My guess is your drawing liquid into the Mag and causing your own problems. Another theory is your anti siphon tube and asa aren't matched and you may have your tube at the wrong angle causing it to draw liquid as well.

edit:

This same question was posted on the Nation and new info was presented into the equation:

understand CO2 stuff pretty well, the tank was filled the night before, anti siphon mark is strait up on the ASA, and thorugh the course of the day i shot enough to get the liquid level lower than the tube.

That pretty much sums up the problem to me

[athomas]

Give the valve a good cleaning. This fixes most mag problems. Has the bolt spring been replaced recently. Bolt springs are a consumable item and weaken with use, which slows down the bolt reset action. Bolt springs are usually good for quite a few thousand shots, so that may not be your problem. An old regulator seat oring can cause shootdown issues. If you had the valve apart and this oring is not brand new, it should be replaced. Do not use grease in the valve except on the spring pack in the back. The grease is only to prevent rust, nothing more. Any place in the valve that is part of the sealing mechanism should be clean and lightly lubricated with synthetic air tool oil (autolube or such). Make sure the ASA pin is not too long, thus choking off the air supply.

[Spider-TW]

Make sure the ASA pin is not too long, thus choking off the air supply.

Now there is something that will kill you on an old mag coming out of storage! I only had that happen with particular CO2 bottles, but I have read where some of the old asa's were just made with their pins too long. If you run a remote, you can push the pin down too far with the screw in handle too.

Glad somebody remembers to mention these things.

[djellum]

reg seat

think it was the reg seat. Seems to be fixed now. Dissassembled and lubed, adjusted the trigger. Reg seat was pretty bad. my on/off is a cp, so movement is small, and i make sure not to over tighten it. Will test on someone this weekend.

Thanks for all your help

[tebo]

wait doesnt anti syphon+ remote= syphon?